]Bush, aides 'grossly misjudged Putin'

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
Bush, aides 'grossly misjudged Putin'


By Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration's failure to win Russia's consent to install U.S. missile defenses in its European backyard and a growing list of other disputes suggest that President Bush and his aides have misread the man whose "soul" Bush thought he'd divined when they first met six years ago.

Bush's strategy on Russia assumed that Russian President Vladimir Putin embraced democracy, wanted integration with the West and sought a "strategic partnership" in which Moscow would acquiesce to U.S. policies such as NATO expansion. Feuds could be resolved through the close personal relationship that Bush believed he had with his Russian counterpart.

Instead, fueled by record oil and natural gas prices and resentment of what he lambasted in February as Bush's "almost uncontained hyper use of force," Putin has led global opposition to the U.S. war in Iraq, hosted Palestinians on the U.S. list of terrorist groups, sold anti-aircraft missiles and other arms to Iran and stymied Bush's drive to tighten U.N. sanctions on the Islamic republic for refusing to suspend uranium enrichment.

The Kremlin has steadily increased spending on defense modernization and revived symbolic long-range aerial reconnaissance patrols toward U.S. and European airspace.

Putin also has threatened to re-target Russian nuclear missiles at Europe if Bush deploys U.S. missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic, declared his intention to trash treaties that eliminate a class of nuclear missiles and limit conventional military forces in Europe and compared the United States under Bush to Germany under Hitler.

The U.S.-Russian tensions are a far cry from June 2001, when Bush declared after his first meeting with Putin in Slovenia that he'd looked in the Russian leader's eyes, found him "trustworthy" and "was able to get a sense of his soul."

Bush and his aides "grossly misjudged Putin," considering him "a good guy and one of us," said Michael McFaul of Stanford University's Hoover Institution.

The former KGB officer created that illusion partly by appearing to share Bush's political and religious convictions, standard tradecraft employed by intelligence officers to recruit spies, he said.

"Putin . . . is a brilliant case officer," said Carlos Pasqual, a former senior State Department official now at The Brookings Institution, a center-left policy organization in Washington.

What many experts regard as the real Putin — a hard-line, derisive Russian nationalist — was on display Friday as he greeted visiting Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates ahead of talks that failed to break the impasses over missile defense and other key security issues.

After keeping the U.S. officials waiting for 40 minutes, Putin mocked their mission in front of reporters and television cameras.

"Of course, we can sometime in the future decide that some anti-missile defense should be established somewhere on the moon . . . ," he said.

U.S.-Russian tensions, already at their highest since the end of Cold War, could worsen in coming months, fanning new regional instability.

If the United States unilaterally recognizes the independence of Serbia's ethnic Albanian-dominated Kosovo province over Russia's objections, Putin may respond by backing Serbia's annexation of northern Kosovo, igniting an ethnic Albanian backlash.

The Kremlin also could recognize the independence of separatist enclaves in the pro-Western former Soviet republics of Moldova and Georgia, encouraging Serb nationalists in Bosnia-Herzegovina to revive a succession drive that ended in 1995.

U.S. policy came to pivot on Putin even though Rice, the administration's top Russia expert, had lambasted former President Clinton for being overly cozy with the Russian leader's predecessor, Boris Yeltsin.

Despite their emphasis on promoting democracy, Bush, Rice and other U.S. officials said little about massive human rights abuses in Chechnya, Putin's gradual rollback of democratic and economic reforms and his suppression of Russia's independent media.

The 2001 al Qaida attacks in New York and Washington led to unprecedented security and intelligence-sharing cooperation between the United States and Russia, which was struggling to contain a costly Muslim guerrilla war in Chechnya.

"We wanted him on our side in the global war on terror," said Pasqual.

Putin backed the U.S. intervention in Afghanistan, including America's use of bases in former Soviet republics, and acquiesced in the U.S. withdrawal from a Cold War treaty prohibiting the deployment of anti-ballistic missile systems.

Emerging from years of financial chaos that had hobbled its military, Russia quickly concluded a 2002 nuclear arms reduction pact mostly on Bush's terms.

Putin, however, began to sour on the relationship as Bush promoted the inclusion of former Warsaw Pact nations in NATO and supported the elections of pro-Western governments in the former Soviet republics of Georgia, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan.

U.S. officials refused to accept "that the Russians do have an interest in what they call their 'near abroad,'" said a former top State Department official who requested anonymity to speak more freely. "The Russians would have differences of opinion with us, and we would not acknowledge that we had differences of opinions."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/20508.html
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
76-20071012-USRUSSIA-chrono.small.prod_affiliate.91.jpg
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
1. The title of this article is bogus as well as the reporting of this disconnect between the US and Putin. You do not have to be a scientist to to know that Russia would be pissed if we put weapons so close to them like the USSR tried to do in Cuba in the 60's. We would react just as angrily (as we ultimately did then).

2. This is exactly how our foreign policy was supposed to go. Once Cheney got into office he and his cohorts at PNAC unleashed their plan for global domination by the US. In doing so you are seing wars, faulty foreign policy moves and the US encountering more hostility around the world as their agenda is set. This is an inadvertant, but predictable offshoot of the PNAC foreign calculations.

:smh::smh:
 

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
So once again is Bush a colossal moron or is he doing everything those who put him in office want?
 

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
[/SIZE]






Oh my, the eyes are slowly opening......

:yes:
been open the whole time bruh

I dont know how long you may have been here before your join date but you should have seen how these dudes have changed since their gung ho support our troops days
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
been open the whole time bruh

I dont know how long you may have been here before your join date but you should have seen how these dudes have changed since their gung ho support our troops days
it was no diss. i am not use to seeing people express those sentiments. i am just glad to know that there are others who openly feel that way about this administration. that's all.


peace!
 

Cruise

Star
Registered
been open the whole time bruh

I dont know how long you may have been here before your join date but you should have seen how these dudes have changed since their gung ho support our troops days

Oh man, I remember those days.

It first started, what, about 4 years ago?

By 2006, their tune had changed. Though, there may be 1 or 2 true believers still left somewhere on the board.
 

ronmch20

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
I doubt Putin ever really had any respect for Bush. And when it comes to "strategery", apparently he's head and shoulders above George -- no surprise there. :rolleyes:
 

Actor4Truth

Star
Registered
it was no diss. i am not use to seeing people express those sentiments. i am just glad to know that there are others who openly feel that way about this administration. that's all.


peace!

"I am soo not alone"- Mos Def
Real question is what/ can we do about it..?
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
"I am soo not alone"- Mos Def
Real question is what/ can we do about it..?
I am in deep contemplation about that with several associates. They are trying some things. However, when you look at what happened to Valeri Plame it makes you pasue. Her outing and her husband's name being smeared is what they want you to remember and fear. Cutting off truth at the head is their goal.

At this point its contacting your Congressmen multiple times, internet petitioning, joining groups that focus in on your specific.
 

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
Oh man, I remember those days.

It first started, what, about 4 years ago?

By 2006, their tune had changed. Though, there may be 1 or 2 true believers still left somewhere on the board.
b2k/white sox\greed and even que ex
fuckin pathetic bullshit - greed doesnt even bother pushing his repub bullshit anymore - now we have bromack1 and a few other characters
they stopped counting their brave countrymen's bodies too - I wonder why? No more yellow ribbon avatars. No more bumps to the honor the boys threads. :hmm:

but back to the topic though - I wonder how graduates of such prestigous universities could fuck up so badly :hmm:
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
b2k/white sox\greed and even que ex
fuckin pathetic bullshit - greed doesnt even bother pushing his repub bullshit anymore - now we have bromack1 and a few other characters
they stopped counting their brave countrymen's bodies too - I wonder why? No more yellow ribbon avatars. No more bumps to the honor the boys threads. :hmm:

but back to the topic though - I wonder how graduates of such prestigous universities could fuck up so badly :hmm:
I'm still new to the cats on this board and their current and former stances on these issues. Can you or Cruise give me a little more insight into your comments? If not cool. Thanks.
 

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
I'm still new to the cats on this board and their current and former stances on these issues. Can you or Cruise give me a little more insight into your comments? If not cool. Thanks.
some of the cats claiming neutrality or claiming to not care for Bush didnt say shit or were cheerleaders for all types of Repub, Bush and Iraq fuckery and now they are real quiet or pretend it never happened etc
Others called Bullshit from day one.

http://www.bgol.us/board/showthread.php?t=52778

That yellow ribbon is getting faded after all these years
 
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nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
some of the cats claiming neutrality or claiming to not care for Bush didnt say shit or were cheerleaders for all types of Repub, Bush and Iraq fuckery and now they are real quiet or pretend it never happened etc
Others called Bullshit from day one.

http://www.bgol.us/board/showthread.php?t=52778

That yellow ribbon is getting faded after all these years
THANKS. This explains a lot. I now see why I get some of the responses I get back from cats on this board.
 

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
THANKS. This explains a lot. I now see why I get some of the responses I get back from cats on this board.

What in that thread leads you to such a bias view of others; and, which others are you referring to. And, Please be specific as to each.

QueEx
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
What in that thread leads you to such a bias view of others; and, which others are you referring to. And, Please be specific as to each.

Queen
"THANKS. This explains a lot. I now see why I get some of the responses I get back from cats on this board" is not a positive OR negative indictment of any one's commentary. It is NOT biased either. What word or words clearly defines an assumption I have made about anyone?!?!? You can't because there is nothing there.:smh:

Therefore, a bullet point synopsis of my impressions of anyone who has responded to me is unwarrnated.:hmm:


Peace.


BTW. Did you ever respond back to the PNAC reponse I gave a coulple days ago? If not, no worries. Just checking.
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Its not warranted because YOU can't back up that bias.

QueEx
Jiminy Christmas and the Kroft Super Stars! Man, there is no bias in saying: "Oh, I see now"! There was nothing said that was positive or negative about my revelation. I know you know this...

Either you are latently trying to mask guilt (because "you think" I am talking about you) or bait me into an illogical argument. So I bow out knowing this.


Peace.
 

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
Jiminy Christmas and the Kroft Super Stars! Man, there is no bias in saying: "Oh, I see now"! There was nothing said that was positive or negative about my revelation. I know you know this...

Either you are latently trying to mask guilt (because "you think" I am talking about you) or bait me into an illogical argument. So I bow out knowing this.


Peace.
That's just que - ignore him when he gets like that
 

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
Man, I am officialy late with this response, but Thanks. I will remember that in the future. :D
Overall he is cool. But I often can't tell the difference between him drumming up discussion/playing devil's advocate, beefing/talking shit and him relaying his actual stance on a topic. He might mix some of all those together too. You can begin a convo with him thinking it is one way and discover it is different 4 replies away. :lol:
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Overall he is cool. But I often can't tell the difference between him drumming up discussion/playing devil's advocate, beefing/talking shit and him relaying his actual stance on a topic. He might mix some of all those together too. You can begin a convo with him thinking it is one way and discover it is different 4 replies away. :lol:
Yeah. Check out the NIE thread. Your observation is in full effect there...
 

sharkbait28

Unionize & Prepare For Automation
International Member
Question. The article implicitly assumes that US tactical and strategic ambitions should be be embraced whole-heartedly by Russia. Why should they?

Why should Russia aquiesce to American hegemony? The missile shield comes at severe cost to their own reigonal objectives.....why is it surprising that Russia would balk at this. I hate how the article infantilizes the whole issue...on some..."we thought he was one of the good guys" type shit.

Why do we put up with such shoddy journalism?

Seriously, inquiring minds want to know.
 

sharkbait28

Unionize & Prepare For Automation
International Member
Yeaa ummm maybe I was too hasty on the quality of this article in particular, at second glance it's not too shabby......but my overall points remain the same.

Russia places it's own strategic interests above the US's.....nothing surprising in the least about that, nor should there be.
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Yeaa ummm maybe I was too hasty on the quality of this article in particular, at second glance it's not too shabby......but my overall points remain the same.

Russia places it's own strategic interests above the US's.....nothing surprising in the least about that, nor should there be.
No, your outrage and contempt is well deserved. This reporting is an affront to all intelligent people around the world. It is bogus propaganda aimed to make sheeple believe that we were actually blindsided by his stance. GTFO with that BS. You don't have to do hypotheticals. Does anyone remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Did we want Soviet missiles in our back yard? Were we not on the brink of WWIII? Then why the F*** would ANYONE, including the puppet reporter, think that Putin would be fine with this move of ours?!?!?

You know why it does not make any sense. Because the PNAC/neocon cabal knows that most sheeple will read this info and be shocked - because the are stupid. I am glad to know your not.

Peace.
 

GhostofMarcus

Star
Registered
b2k/white sox\greed and even que ex
fuckin pathetic bullshit - greed doesnt even bother pushing his repub bullshit anymore - now we have bromack1 and a few other characters
they stopped counting their brave countrymen's bodies too - I wonder why? No more yellow ribbon avatars. No more bumps to the honor the boys threads. :hmm:

but back to the topic though - I wonder how graduates of such prestigous universities could fuck up so badly :hmm:


:lol: :eek: Been a long time since I posted over here, but Makkonnen is right. Forgot one VG
 

sharkbait28

Unionize & Prepare For Automation
International Member
No, your outrage and contempt is well deserved. This reporting is an affront to all intelligent people around the world. It is bogus propaganda aimed to make sheeple believe that we were actually blindsided by his stance. GTFO with that BS. You don't have to do hypotheticals. Does anyone remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Did we want Soviet missiles in our back yard? Were we not on the brink of WWIII? Then why the F*** would ANYONE, including the puppet reporter, think that Putin would be fine with this move of ours?!?!?

You know why it does not make any sense. Because the PNAC/neocon cabal knows that most sheeple will read this info and be shocked - because the are stupid. I am glad to know your not.

Peace.



Preach brethren!! :yes:

I backed off from my original stance on the article simply 'cause the reporter had most of his facts straight....albeit the overall tone and direction of the article was pretty much typical "rah rah.....go team america" bullshit.

PNAC (otherwise known as Project for a New American Century) is going to be exposed sooner or later for the absurd foregn policy positiion it represents. History will be a harsh critic of all these ridiculous "think tanks" and their deleterious effect on American international presence. Fuck the PNAC...fuck the American Entrerprise Institute fuck 'em all
 

nyyyyce

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Preach brethren!! :yes:

I backed off from my original stance on the article simply 'cause the reporter had most of his facts straight....albeit the overall tone and direction of the article was pretty much typical "rah rah.....go team america" bullshit.

PNAC (otherwise known as Project for a New American Century) is going to be exposed sooner or later for the absurd foregn policy positiion it represents. History will be a harsh critic of all these ridiculous "think tanks" and their deleterious effect on American international presence. Fuck the PNAC...fuck the American Entrerprise Institute fuck 'em all
I am not trying to be dramatic or nothing, but when you really "know" what is being done to you it's trippy. When you can decipher the hidden messages. When you can see the strings that are being pulled to guide the puppet media you can see things like you just unplugged from the Matrix. It's that serious. I would venture to say that 90% of the people that were behind Bush, the Iraq war and the Iran rhetoric don't even know about PNAC/AEI or the people/groups that really run this country. They open the paper and think that what they see is real. Its not. You have to search and go deeper. Most folks find that too daunting a task. I don't.

Keep digging.

Peace.
 
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