Why is Bush trying to antagonize Russia? Is he about to start another cold war?

Black A. Camus

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
Russia feels threatened by Bush's plans to insert a missile defense system in Europe. So why does Bush persist with that plan? Moreover, what does the United States stand to gain from having a missile defense system in Europe, i.e., how does a European missile defense plan benefit the average American citizen? Undoubtedly there are some back door economic considerations, which the media has yet to promulgate, motivating Bush to persist on said missile defense plans. Still, are any economic gains worth another cold war?
 
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War = profit.
Republicans destabilize the world for profit.

This is their plan. Has been for ever...

1) Cause trouble to piss off other countries
2) Use the fact that countres are pissed off
as a justification for increase in defense spending.
 
Black A. Camus said:
Russia feels threatened by Bush's plans to insert a missile defense system in Europe. So why does Bush persist with that plan? Moreover, what does the United States stand to gain from having a missile defense system in Europe, i.e., how does a European missile defense plan benefit the average American citizen? Undoubtedly there are some back door economic considerations, which the media has yet to promulgate, motivating Bush to persist on said missile defense plans. Still, are any economic gains worth another cold war?


No... Bush is not trying to start a "cold" war.

We've got a lot of old nukes sittin around here in the good ol US Of A.

It would make sense to share them with other countries.... especially our allies, That way.... they don't have to build em themselves....

Team_America-teaser_L.jpg
 
Black A. Camus said:
Russia feels threatened by Bush's plans to insert a missile defense system in Europe. So why does Bush persist with that plan? Moreover, what does the United States stand to gain from having a missile defense system in Europe, i.e., how does a European missile defense plan benefit the average American citizen? Undoubtedly there are some back door economic considerations, which the media has yet to promulgate, motivating Bush to persist on said missile defense plans. Still, are any economic gains worth another cold war?
Other than GW being, in my opinion, incompetent; the shield was to protect against missiles launched from Iran at the Europeans. Of course, as a practical matter, situating it in Poland, etc., would also make it an ABM system against Russian missiles, launched at Europe or the U.S.

Again, GW's incompetence notwithstanding, sounds like a good idea to me. On the other hand, like they should, the Ruskies have responded with concerns that placing an ABM site so close to them could, in effect, allow a preemptive attack against them. So, the negotiations begin. I think any hedge against the Iranians (because they will in the near future become armed with nukes) is reasonable; I can understand the Russians concerns; it would have been nice had they slept and not noticed/became concerned, but they didn't.

The shield will be built; probably not at the original sites proposed. Who knows, maybe they were never really intended to be built at the original sites. Maybe that was just the opening move. Maybe the ultimate move is to get it built, somewhere, where the Russians could tolerate it and where it would still remain effective against its intended targets?

QueEx
 
I feel Bush wants us to be in a constant state of turmoil. There was never any doubt in my mind that a missile defense system would lead to a new arms race which in turn will fatten the pockets of bushs buddies. The development of a missile defense system logically must lead to the development of missiles to beat the system right? If Russia and China dont counter this move MAD goes down the tubes and the USA is put into a position to win a nuclear war.
 
QueEx said:
But, how can any country "win" a nuclear war ???

Well if the missile shield worked (yeah right) We could strike a nation first which would leave mostly missiles left for a second strike. Now If you cant get your missiles to the target you lose. After watching the debates and hearing these republicans say they would use nukes to stop Iran from getting one nuke if I was putin I wouldn't take any chances. In any case a shield screws with the balance of power to much to go unchallenged.
 
SAFOOL said:
Well if the missile shield worked (yeah right) We could strike a nation first which would leave mostly missiles left for a second strike. Now If you cant get your missiles to the target you lose. After watching the debates and hearing these republicans say they would use nukes to stop Iran from getting one nuke if I was putin I wouldn't take any chances. In any case a shield screws with the balance of power to much to go unchallenged.
Don't the Russians have an ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) system ???

QueEx
 
Isnt their system really old? I think I saw aomething about it as a kid & it was like missile command. You shot your missles up and hope the explosion takes out the warheads kind of thing????????
 
As I understand it, the Russians have had an ABM system since 1962; upgraded in 1978; and in 1989 it was estimated they possesed 100 missile interceptors.
 
Black A. Camus said:
Russia feels threatened by Bush's plans to insert a missile defense system in Europe. So why does Bush persist with that plan? Moreover, what does the United States stand to gain from having a missile defense system in Europe, i.e., how does a European missile defense plan benefit the average American citizen? Undoubtedly there are some back door economic considerations, which the media has yet to promulgate, motivating Bush to persist on said missile defense plans. Still, are any economic gains worth another cold war?


I'm wondering, which country is going to be willing to allow and comply with the missle defense system, she shrub has planned...?
 
Mankind has reached the point of no return. The Earth is too crowded people have got to die or we will desolate this planet. A world war is the only solution, disease and civil wars don't kill enough people. Bush wants to protect Western Civilization while Russia, China and the Middle East wants it destroyed. If you are in you 30's it prolly won't happen in your lifetime but nuclear war is all but gauranteed.
 
QueEx said:
As I understand it, the Russians have had an ABM system since 1962; upgraded in 1978; and in 1989 it was estimated they possesed 100 missile interceptors.
yea but the russians have interceptors in moscow and st petersburgh, not in cuba or venezuala or canada.
 
hoodedgoon said:
yea but the russians have interceptors in moscow and st petersburgh, not in cuba or venezuala or canada.
Excellent point. But, as one U.S. General put it, to take down a missile fired from Iran, you need to be in the right place which doesn't appear to be in the U.S. In an interview with Speigel, a German publication, General Henry Obering was asked to explain the reasoning behind choosing sites in Poland the Czech Republic for the missile plan, he said:
"We looked at the trajectories from Iran into Europe and from Iran into the United States. And then we said, which countries have the best location for coverage. Our interceptors have to fly out and go through their staging before they are able to intercept a missile. So, if you are too close, you can't do that. If you are too far away, you roll back the coverage. It turned out that the Czech Republic and Poland were at the top of that list."​
Assuming Obering is right; and assuming some kind of shield (IF it works) against Iran is wise (I think so), seems it needs to go someplace where it might be effective.

I can understand the Russians concern and it may be possible that the system could be built someplace where it would still be effective and satisfy the Russian's fears. (Obering believes it could, in Western Europe).

I also note that we're talking about deploying only "10" interceptors. Ten interceptors would be totally ineffective against the Russian's arsenal. Of course, you could say 10 today 100's tomorrow; but what if verification is added in?).

QueEx

The Speigel interview:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,486391,00.html
 
Even "IDOT-GEORGE" is NOT that stupid. It's SIMPLE politics really, Bush WANTS the russians to play "ball" on Iran(sanctions), so far no "positive" response so, he figure he pushes Putin's buttons, with the hope of them(russia) agreeing to help the U.S. with the Iran sanctions and all.

It won't work tho, that Russia "backyard"..
 
<U>FACT BOX</U>

NUCLEAR WARHEADS

Russia
Land-launched: 2,146
Sea-launched: 1,392
Air-launched: 624

US
Land-launched: 1,600
Sea-launched: 3,168
Air-launched: 1,098

Source: Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) data 2007

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<font size="5">Q&A: US missile defence </font size>

Last Updated: Friday, 8 June 2007, 08:01 GMT 09:01 UK


Russia's President Vladimir Putin has threatened to retaliate against a proposed US missile defence system in Europe by targeting Russian missiles against Europe.
What is the US proposing to do?

The United States wants to build a system that will let it knock out incoming ballistic missiles potentially coming from North Korea and Iran.

This involves stationing radars in Alaska and California in the US and at Fylingdales in the UK. Another radar is planned for Greenland.

Anti-missile missiles, or interceptors, are being based in Alaska (40 of them) and California (4) and the plan is to put 10 of them in Poland with an associated radar in the Czech Republic.


There would also be 130 interceptors based on ships. The interceptors work by physically hitting the ballistic missile in mid-flight. There would also be missiles to try to destroy incoming rockets in the final stages.

Why in Eastern Europe?

The US says there is a gap in its anti-missile defences.


See maps of US and Russian missile systems
A threat from North Korea could be countered with the US and sea-based systems.

But European allies or US forces in Europe could be threatened by Iran one day, Washington says, or indeed some other country (though only Iran is mentioned by name in the US Missile Defense Agency "Overview" -- see link at right) so there needs to be a system based in Europe as well.



What about President Putin's idea of a radar in Azerbaijan?

This came as a surprise at the G8 meeting in Germany and lowered the tension over the issue. Mr Putin suggested that, as an alternative, the US might use a Russian radar site in Azerbaijan, which has a border with Iran. President Bush called the idea "interesting" and it will be studied. The US would have to have an X-band radar that can target missiles but it has considered the region for a mobile X-band radar before, so the suggestion is not without substance.


When would the system be deployed in Eastern Europe?

The radar would be installed in the Czech Republic in 2011 and the ten interceptors in Poland (on a football pitch-sized site) between 2011 and 2013.


[n]Why are the Russians angry? [/n]

They say that the current plans might be small, but could be the start of something bigger. The plan, they argue, could be developed to counter their own missiles, which, they say, could eventually be destroyed on launch.

This, they claim, would undermine the doctrine of deterrence.


What might the Russians do in response?

President Putin has threatened to take counter-measures, such as choosing "new targets", as he put it, in Europe.

Presumably these would include the two sites chosen for the anti-missile system. This new arms race would, he suggested, increase the risk of nuclear war in Europe.

He wants the proposed deployment of the US system stopped.

Russia has just announced the testing of a new multiple-warhead missile, the RS-24, which it says is designed to overcome missile defences. It is also developing new cruise missiles.


Why has President Putin spoken out now?


Observers think he is concerned about wider issues than just stopping the shield.

His approach in office has been to follow more nationalistic policies than his predecessor, President Boris Yeltsin, who is felt in Russia to have given too much to the West.

So on a range of issues, President Putin is trying to make Russian influence count.


Why does the US say the Russians should not be worried?

The US argues that the 10 interceptors in Poland and the radar in the Czech Republic could not possibly do any harm to any Russian ballistic missile.

"You're not going to counter the hundreds of Russian ICBMs and the thousands of warheads that are represented by that fleet with 10 interceptors in a field in Europe," says Gen Henry Obering, head of the US Missile Defense Agency.

In addition, he says, the radar would be too small to track Russian missiles effectively.


Have Poland and the Czech Republic agreed to the deployment?

Not finally. The Czech government agrees in principle but is negotiating conditions, such as assurances that this is not directed at Russia and will not affect Czech sovereignty. Poland is also sympathetic but wants further discussions. There is some opposition in both countries to the plan


Does Iran have a missile capable of reaching Europe or the US?

The US think-tank, the Nuclear Threat Initiative, says: "Iran currently possesses the capability to employ ballistic missiles and/or long-range artillery rockets against its regional neighbours, Israel, and US forces deployed in the region.

"Given favourable conditions, Iran is currently on track to be able to extend its ballistic missile capabilities to include Southern Europe, North Africa and South Asia by 2005-2010 and possibly the continental United States by 2015."


What international agreements cover these moves?

None. The US withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2001.

This treaty limited US and Soviet anti-missile defences to one site each. The Russians still operate theirs, around Moscow.

The US chose to defend its strategic rockets in North Dakota but this defence has been deactivated.

Part of the Russian unhappiness about the Europe sector of the anti-missile system is that it results from the US withdrawal from the ABM treaty and Russia is worried about where it might go next.

The US says it should not be worried.


Is this the start of a new Cold War?

It is certainly a difficult period where mistrust and antagonism are prevalent.

The hopes that Russia and the United States could be friendly allies have not been realised so far.

Instead there is suspicion and this is likely to continue, though to call it a new Cold War is probably going too far.

President Putin leaves office next spring and President Bush in early 2009, so a lot depends on their successors.


What ballistic missiles do the US and Russia have?

They have dramatically reduced their arsenals from the Cold War days but still retain substantial forces of several thousand missiles and nuclear warheads each.

Under the Strategic Offensive Reductions Treaty (SORT) signed by presidents Bush and Putin in 2002, each side has to reduce its deployed warheads to a maximum of 2,200 by 2012.

Russia has its own radar early warning system, short range interceptor missiles in bases around Moscow and a number of land-based Intercontinental Ballistic Missile launch sites across the country.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6720153.stm
 
nittie said:
Mankind has reached the point of no return. The Earth is too crowded people have got to die or we will desolate this planet. A world war is the only solution, disease and civil wars don't kill enough people. Bush wants to protect Western Civilization while Russia, China and the Middle East wants it destroyed. If you are in you 30's it prolly won't happen in your lifetime but nuclear war is all but gauranteed.



WOW??!!



I don't even think Karl Rove himself would take shit THIS far.



Damn:smh:



No words, any comment beyind just WOW would be a waste of energy with you at this point dude.



Once again...


WOW??!!
 
Zero said:
WOW??!!



I don't even think Karl Rove himself would take shit THIS far.



Damn:smh:



No words, any comment beyind just WOW would be a waste of energy with you at this point dude.



Once again...


WOW??!!



I'm glad you feel that way arguing would be a waste of time. But let's not get it twisted, Russia, Iraq, Iran, or N. Korea are not starting wars, America is. Joe Lieberman is on tv today urging a pre-emptive strike against Iran. There's evidence America used low grade nukes in Iraq and Israel used them in Lebanon. So building a shield to protect against a nuke attack from Iran is bullshit. The shield is needed to protect as many rich Western Whites as possible when the shit finally hits the fan.
 
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nittie said:
Mankind has reached the point of no return. The Earth is too crowded people have got to die or we will desolate this planet. A world war is the only solution, disease and civil wars don't kill enough people. Bush wants to protect Western Civilization while Russia, China and the Middle East wants it destroyed. If you are in you 30's it prolly won't happen in your lifetime but nuclear war is all but gauranteed.

:smh: :smh: :smh: :smh: :smh:

`
 
nittie said:
I'm glad you feel that way arguing would be a waste of time. But let's not get it twisted, Russia, Iraq, Iran, or N. Korea are not starting wars, America is. Joe Lieberman is on tv today urging a pre-emptive strike against Iran. There's evidence America used low grade nukes in Iraq and Israel used them in Lebanon. So building a shield to protect against a nuke attack from Iran is bullshit. The shield is needed to protect as many rich Western Whites as possible when the shit finally hits the fan.

Dog, I'm dead serious when I say I am confused by your posts. Were you being sarcastic in the first post? It sounded like you were advocating global thermonuclear war in the first post as a way to thin out the population and "save Western civilization".
 
Man I'm not being sarcastic, that is how I see it, the West will start a nuclear war to maintain it's place in world affairs, insure White survival and save as many of it's assets as possible. I'm not advocating nuclear war either I just don't see how it can be avoided. Bush is not building that shield to start another Cold War he is preparing for the inevitable.
 
nittie said:
Man I'm not being sarcastic, that is how I see it, the West will start a nuclear war to maintain it's place in world affairs, insure White survival and save as many of it's assets as possible. I'm not advocating nuclear war either I just don't see how it can be avoided. Bush is not building that shield to start another Cold War he is preparing for the inevitable.
That makes absolutely no sense. None. Not any.

Some easy points:

(1) There is absolutely no way that we could act preemptively against the Russians with nukes without a nuclear reply from them that would end up either toasting both countries or resulting in a virtually unliveable planet.

Why do you think MAD (mutually assured destruction) worked so well ???

(2) Lets see, who would be the next most serious "nuclear challenge" to Western Culture? - oh, China. Do you honestly, or drunkenly, believe that we could launch a nuclear attack against the Chinese and none of their nuclear weapons not reach the U.S. ???

Even if but a few got through (the shield is not designed as blanket protection), where would the survivors live? - underfuckingground? How would the surviving U.S. population avoid all the consequences of nuclear material circling the fucking globe ?

HOW ???

Enough. Maybe I'm just wrong; maybe planetary nuclear war is survivable.

QueEx
 
QueEx said:
Other than GW being, in my opinion, incompetent; the shield was to protect against missiles launched from Iran at the Europeans. Of course, as a practical matter, situating it in Poland, etc., would also make it an ABM system against Russian missiles, launched at Europe or the U.S.

Again, GW's incompetence notwithstanding, sounds like a good idea to me. On the other hand, like they should, the Ruskies have responded with concerns that placing an ABM site so close to them could, in effect, allow a preemptive attack against them. So, the negotiations begin. I think any hedge against the Iranians (because they will in the near future become armed with nukes) is reasonable; I can understand the Russians concerns; it would have been nice had they slept and not noticed/became concerned, but they didn't.

The shield will be built; probably not at the original sites proposed. Who knows, maybe they were never really intended to be built at the original sites. Maybe that was just the opening move. Maybe the ultimate move is to get it built, somewhere, where the Russians could tolerate it and where it would still remain effective against its intended targets?

QueEx

Funny that mostly everything he is doing, is actually working. Funny that everyone on this board thats against Bush because of the war, is avoiding my latest post. This proves my theory right. People don't like Bush because he is a republican, and he is a Texan.
 
actinanass said:
Funny that mostly everything he is doing, is actually working. Funny that everyone on this board thats against Bush because of the war, is avoiding my latest post. This proves my theory right. People don't like Bush because he is a republican, and he is a Texan.
What is your lastest post? - And, do you read the posts of others with comprehension or just with your preconceived labels ???

QueEx
 
<font size="5">Russia: Using Missile Defense as a Geopolitical Lever</font size>

Strategic Forecasting
By George Friedman
June 13, 2007

Russian President Vladmir Putin threw a classic Cold War curveball during his chat with U.S. President George W. Bush at the G-8 summit. Having totally opposed the creation of a U.S. ballistic missile defense (BMD) system in Poland and the Czech Republic, Putin suddenly shifted his position, saying he might go along with a BMD system under certain conditions. The system, he said, would be acceptable if the United States used a Russian radar system placed in Azerbaijan and based its interceptor missiles anywhere else, such as on ships or in Turkey or Iraq -- anywhere but in Poland.

By rejecting the proposal, Washington would look hostile and uncompromising. Accepting it would mean basing the missiles near the Iranian border, possibly too close to intercept long-range missiles fired from there. Using Russian radar -- which currently is insufficient for U.S. needs -- would make the entire system dependent on Russian cooperation. And pulling the system from Poland would be a signal to Central Europe that military agreements with the United States are subject to negotiation with the Russians. That, of course, is exactly the signal Putin wants sent.

First, let's consider the BMD system itself. There are two criticisms of it, usually made by the same people. The first is that it won't work, and the second is that it is destabilizing. That the two statements are incompatible does not seem to faze most people. Therefore, it is necessary to begin by explaining the reason the BMD is such a passionate issue.

The foundation of stability during the Cold War was Mutually Assured Destruction, or MAD. MAD was based on the certainty that an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), once launched, could not be blocked. With enough ICBMs, land- and submarine-launched, both the United States and Soviet Union could assure the destruction of the other side in the event of a nuclear exchange. That deterred nuclear risk-taking and stabilized the situation.

The introduction of a missile defense system threatened to change this equation. If one side created such a system, its destruction would no longer be assured, and it might choose to launch a nuclear attack against another side. Even if the effectiveness of the BMD system were uncertain, its very uncertainty created an unknown factor. Neither side could be sure the system would work -- one's own or the other's. In the hall of mirrors that constituted nuclear strategic thinking, the possibility that the other side might calculate probabilities different than you might force you to strike pre-emptively. Since the other side wouldn't know what you were thinking, it might strike pre-emptively. Thus, the existence of a BMD system that might not work was seen as increasing the chance of war.

The Soviets, however, had two very real fears when then-U.S. President Ronald Reagan announced the Strategic Defense Initiative, dubbed Star Wars. The first was that the United States might just create an effective BMD system. The Soviets had been burned too many times by underestimating U.S. technological capabilities to be as dismissive as Western critics. The second problem was that the Soviets could not match the system financially or technologically. If it failed to work, fine. But if the United States pulled it off, the Soviet Union would be wide open to attack without the ability to field its own system.

Therefore, the Soviets went ballistic because they were uncertain about the system's effectiveness. They carried out diplomatic attacks against the system and encouraged its Western critics -- and critics of the Reagan administration in general -- to do all they could to block the system. As it was, Star Wars couldn't be made to work at the time, but if you were to have listened to the Soviets on the subject in the mid-1980s, you would have thought the United States was on the verge of annihilating the Soviets with Star Wars. By then, the Soviets' nerves were pretty well shot. They were generally on the ropes, and knew it.

Since those days, the concept of a BMD system has been seen as a technical impossibility that nevertheless is dangerous and destabilizing. There might have been an element of truth to that, but it is difficult to describe a system designed to block one or two missiles fired by a rogue state as destabilizing. MAD is not in effect, for example, with an Iranian or North Korean missile launch. There is no balance to destabilize. An argument could be made that the system doesn't work. You also could argue that the cheapest and most effective solution to an Iranian missile launch is a pre-emptive strike against the Iranian missile site. But it is hard to argue that the existence of a small defensive system of uncertain effectiveness and geared to look at a third party increases the probability of an American-Russian nuclear war.

But the complexities of nuclear deterrence against Third World countries with minor nuclear ambitions are not what Putin was thinking about when he made his offer to the United States. Rather, Putin was thinking about Poland, its role in Central Europe and the former Soviet Union (FSU), and its relationship to the United States. That's what really is worrying Putin, and the BMD issue is merely a lever to deal with the larger geopolitical issues. In other words, this isn't about missile defense, but about a U.S. military presence -- no matter how small -- in Poland.

Ever since the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, the Russians have been shifting their foreign policy to reassert their sphere of influence in the FSU. In their view, the Andropov experiment of trading geopolitical influence for economic benefits with the West has failed. The benefits failed to solve their problems when they materialized, and the geopolitical concessions have created massive insecurity for the Russian Federation. Therefore, reclaiming Moscow's sphere of influence is the primary issue, starting with Ukraine.

The Russians blamed the Americans for Ukraine, but they also have blamed Poland. Of all of the former European satellites, Poland has been the most openly anti-Russian and the most active in supporting forces in the FSU that also are resisting Russian resurgence. This was shown recently in the Baltic states, particularly Estonia, where Russians have been angered over what is portrayed as increasingly repressive moves toward the local Russian population. The relocation of a monument to the Red Army for liberating Estonia from Germany led to riots by ethnic Russians. Moscow deliberately intensified the crisis, warning the Estonians not to take actions against Russians.

The Russians have a particular problem with the Baltic countries, in that they have been admitted to NATO. The Russians believed they had an understanding with NATO and the United States, dating back to the fall of the Soviet Union, that NATO would not be extended into Central Europe -- and certainly never into the FSU. Obviously, though, many Central European countries have joined NATO. The induction of the Baltic countries, which brought NATO within 60 miles of St. Petersburg, angered the Russians but was grudgingly seen as the price of the Andropov doctrine. However, it was post-Orange Revolution talk of including Ukraine in NATO that drove the Russians to reverse policy.

The Poles, given their long history, are not a trustful or secure people. They view the Russians as merely recovering from a setback, not permanently vanquished. They also have no love or trust for the Germans. Historically trapped on the hard-to-defend northern European plain, equally afraid of both Russians and Germans, the Poles have always looked to an outside power as a protector. Even the experience of French and British guarantees in World War II has not soured them on this strategy, since it is the only one they've got. And that means the Poles now are relying on American guarantees.

But the Poles also badly need a buffer between them and the Russians. They want independent Baltic states in NATO. They want Ukraine in NATO. If there was any way to swing it, they would want Belarus in NATO. They want the Russians kept as far from them as possible. So long as they feel they have U.S. guarantees, they will do everything they can to create blocks to a return of Russia to the frontiers of the FSU.

The Russian view is that the Poles are being encouraged and emboldened by the United States. The missile defense system in Poland is not important in and of itself. It certainly doesn't affect Russia's ability to launch a nuclear strike. But as a symbol of a Polish-U.S. alliance that transcends NATO, it is absolutely vital. The Poles wanted the missiles in their country to symbolize the link, and the Americans wanted them there for the same reason. As long as that link exists, the Poles feel secure, and as long as the Poles feel secure, they will be a thorn in the side of the Russians. The Russian goal of exerting a sphere of influence in the FSU has a broader component. Russia does not expect to regain influence in most of Central Europe -- Serbia possibly excepted. It does want the Central Europeans to be sufficiently wary of the Russians as to exercise caution. Most of the rest of Central Europe tries hard not to get in Russia's way. The Russians want to solidify this posture and extend it to Poland while they redefine the status of the Baltics.

If the Russians can get the Americans to withdraw the missiles from Poland, placing them in Azerbaijan, on ships at sea or in downtown Moscow, the Russians will have achieved their goal. The Russians have a lingering distaste for the BMD. But the real issue is to force a U.S. retreat from Poland. That would shake Polish -- and broader European -- confidence in the U.S. commitment, sober the rest of an already cautious Central Europe and certainly cause the Balts to rethink their posture toward Russia.

If the United States refused to shift the system, this would give the Russians a lever with the Germans. Moscow could then go to the Germans (who still are smarting over a couple of brief cut-offs of natural gas from Russia) and argue that the Americans are triggering another Cold War by their inflexible commitment to basing in Poland when Russia has offered a set of workable alternatives. Whatever German Chancellor Angela Merkel's view of geopolitics, the German public does not want a replay of the Cold War -- and wants Poland to be quiet.

There is also, as in all good Cold War games, a domestic political component. The United States has enjoyed meddling in Russian politics for the past 15 years or so. This gives Putin a chance at payback. At a time when the Bush administration is both politically weak and quite distracted, painting the administration as being inflexible and aggressive, courting another ill-conceived confrontation over a weapon that doesn't work anyway, is a low-risk, high-gain proposition. The New York Times already bit on the bait with an editorial praising Russian flexibility.

The administration's geopolitical problem is obvious. It has too many irons in the fire and a couple of them -- Iraq and Afghanistan -- are white hot. The Russians are deliberately raising the stakes over the Polish system because they see the Bush administration's last two years as a golden opportunity to redefine their sphere of influence. If the United States resists Russia's suggestions, Russia can make inroads in Germany and the rest of Western Europe while causing more domestic political pressure on an administration that already is in the red zone when it comes to political weakness. If Washington compromises, the Russians can use that in Central Europe as evidence of the United States' lack of commitment and of a need for the Central Europeans to rethink their position. It particularly puts the Baltic states in a difficult position. Poland alone (or with the tiny Baltic states) certainly is not a sufficient counterweight to Russia.

Putin's move, therefore, was brilliantly timed and conceived. He took an issue that is controversial in its own right and used it as a geopolitical lever, striking hard at a relationship that is most troubling to Moscow. The Washington-Warsaw relationship represents a serious regional challenge to Russian ambitions. If the Russians can get an American retreat on the anti-missile system in Poland, they can begin the process of unraveling the U.S. position in Central Europe. Since the Western Europeans wouldn't mind in the least, there are possibilities here.

But the possibilities are not the same ones that existed during the Cold War, or even as recently as three years ago. Any region with three dozen states -- read: Europe -- is a dynamic place where governments regularly come and go. By the end of June, the three major European leaders who demonstrated the greatest affinity for Russia during their terms -- German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, French President Jacques Chirac and British Prime Minister Tony Blair -- will all be gone. Their replacements, and the replacements of similar governments throughout Europe, are largely Russo-skeptic. But they also are not instinctual European federalists.

This both destroys and creates opportunities for Moscow. The Kremlin is now facing a Europe that is actually more hostile to it than a similar pan-European alignment of the 1980s. Simultaneously, the unraveling of the European project means that, though the overall region is certainly more suspicious, Russia's ability to peel off individual states from the whole, either with sweet talk or intimidation, could actually prove easier.

And nowhere will it be easier than Serbia. The Russians have made it clear that they do not favor an independent Kosovo. Friendly with Serbia, and very unhappy with the way the Kosovo war was handled by the United States, the Russians could well choose to create a second confrontation over the future of Kosovo, testing both the Americans and Western Europeans at the same time. The Russians now have very little to lose and quite a bit to gain from confrontation.

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But the possibilities are not the same ones that existed during the Cold War, or even as recently as three years ago. Any region with three dozen states -- read: Europe -- is a dynamic place where governments regularly come and go. By the end of June, the three major European leaders who demonstrated the greatest affinity for Russia during their terms -- German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, French President Jacques Chirac and British Prime Minister Tony Blair -- will all be gone. Their replacements, and the replacements of similar governments throughout Europe, are largely Russo-skeptic. But they also are not instinctual European federalists.

This both destroys and creates opportunities for Moscow. The Kremlin is now facing a Europe that is actually more hostile to it than a similar pan-European alignment of the 1980s. Simultaneously, the unraveling of the European project means that, though the overall region is certainly more suspicious, Russia's ability to peel off individual states from the whole, either with sweet talk or intimidation, could actually prove easier.

And nowhere will it be easier than Serbia. The Russians have made it clear that they do not favor an independent Kosovo. Friendly with Serbia, and very unhappy with the way the Kosovo war was handled by the United States, the Russians could well choose to create a second confrontation over the future of Kosovo, testing both the Americans and Western Europeans at the same time. The Russians now have very little to lose and quite a bit to gain from confrontation.


Russia will eventually capitulate to Western demands, there is no way they can stop America and Europe from doing what they want to do. When they finally cave the only country standing in the way is China and maybe Pakistan if a military coup overthrows the government there. Like I said earlier a nuclear war will not happen in our lifetimes but eventually China and other nations will increase their wages and living standards, when that happens the planet will not be able to sustain 2-3 nations that consume at the rate America does today, that means someone has to go. America will strike first, we've already used atomic weapons and we used low grade nukes in Iraq if anyone thinks we will not use them to insure this country's survival they are really, really naive.
 
<font size="5"><center>Russia, U.S. aim for thaw with talks</font size>
<font size="4">Sides hope diplomacy will temper rhetoric</font size></center>

Chicago Tribune
By Alex Rodriguez
Tribune foreign correspondent
Published June 30, 2007


MOSCOW -- President Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin are expected to wrangle over missile defense, Kosovo and Iran when they meet at the Bush family's oceanside compound in Maine on Sunday, but just as urgent will be the need to salve a U.S.-Russian relationship battered by months of Cold War-caliber rhetoric.

Putin's two-day visit will mark the first time Bush has invited a head of state to his parents' retreat in Kennebunkport, an intimate, relaxed setting the White House hopes will supply the ambience needed to reverse the turn that U.S.-Russian relations have taken in recent months.

Putin has discarded the language of diplomacy and spoken bluntly about the U.S. and what he views as Washington's quest for global dominance.

In a February speech in Munich, Germany, he accused the U.S. of relying on "uncontained hyper-use of force" and stoking a new arms race. On Russia's Victory Day in May, when the country commemorates the defeat of Nazi Germany, Putin obliquely likened the U.S. to the Third Reich.

Earlier this month, he threatened to retarget Russian missiles toward Europe in response to U.S. plans to build a Europe-based missile shield system meant to defend against so-called rogue states such as Iran.

"We are in a more complicated period in our relations with Russia than we've been in some time," Daniel Fried, assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, told the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee last week. "As President Bush has said, the Cold War is over. But the world has witnessed a series of statements and initiatives from Russian officials in recent months that have left us puzzled and in some cases concerned."

Kennebunkport, Fried added, is "a venue intended to allow the leaders to step back, consider how to avoid rhetorical escalation, and concentrate on a common agenda for efforts against common threats and to achieve shared goals."

But with both leaders nearing the end of their presidencies, analysts doubt that anything substantive can be achieved in Maine. The best that the White House can hope for, says Fyodor Lukyanov, editor in chief of the Moscow-based Russia in Global Affairs journal, is a summit that shows both leaders continue to maintain a constructive dialogue.

"I don't think Bush thinks he can achieve anything new with Putin," Lukyanov said. "But it's important for him to prevent the collapse of relations and maintain an understanding between the two sides -- or at least pretend to have that understanding."

No breakthroughs are expected on the Bush administration's bid to build a missile shield with 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar system in the Czech Republic. The U.S. insists that the system is designed to defend Europe against a potential attack from Iran. Tehran does not have long-range ballistic missile capability, but it could develop that ability by 2015, U.S. officials say.

The Kremlin regards any missile defense system situated in Europe as a threat to Russian security. Washington says 10 interceptor missiles in Poland cannot realistically be perceived as a threat to Russia's massive nuclear arsenal. But the Kremlin frets that a missile shield on Russia's doorstep, no matter how small, could provide the foundation for a larger, more sophisticated system in years to come.

At the G-8 summit in Germany last month, Putin addressed the standoff over missile defense by suggesting the radar system be based at a radar installation Russia currently rents in Azerbaijan.

That idea has been dismissed by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who said the Azeri radar could only supplement the missile defense system's planned radar in the Czech Republic. However, Putin wants to hear what concerns the U.S. has about the Azeri offer directly from Bush, and the Russian leader will raise the issue in Kennebunkport, said Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

"Of course we would never want to suspect the U.S. to attack Russia," Peskov said. "But we have to witness the reality. If the U.S. deploys radar in the Czech Republic, this radar will be aimed against us, because there won't be any other target for that radar."

Both sides also have dug in for a long fight on the issue of Kosovo statehood. The U.S. backs a UN plan that would grant supervised independence to the Serbian province of Kosovo. Russia, which regards Serbia as a staunch ally, opposes the idea because it believes the move would set a dangerous precedent for breakaway provinces in former Soviet republics, such as the unrecognized autonomous regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia.

Earlier this week, White House press secretary Tony Snow tried to pre-empt any expectations of major initiatives coming out of the Maine talks on Sunday and Monday. "I would caution against expecting any grand new announcements," Snow said. "This is, in fact, an opportunity for two leaders to talk honestly and candidly with one another."

Russia's economic resurgence has given the Kremlin a new swagger on the world stage. Consistently high oil prices have helped Russia reap yearly economic growth rates of nearly 7 percent. The Kremlin has renationalized key elements of the country's energy sector, the fulcrum of the Russian economy. It has reasserted its clout in the Middle East and strengthened ties with Central Asian states that have oil and gas fields coveted by the West.

"We have rebuilt our economic and military potential," Putin told reporters in Europe in May. "Nowadays, there are very few levers to influence Russia."

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ajrodriguez@tribune.com

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...0,1,747748.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed
 
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