Who's the Greatest Wrestler of All Time????
- Thread starter beg4mercy
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I like goldberg but realtalk hulk hogan biggest name in the sport all time.
best intro hands down
best intro hands down
The wwe put out a 50 greatest superstars magazine a few years ago and this is the list the company came up with.
Bret Hart
Hulk Hogan
Andre The Giant
Honky Tonk Man
Ultimate Warrior
Killer Kowalski
Bob Backlund
Sgt. Slaughter
Roddy Piper
Don Muraco
Kurt Angle
Chief Jay Strongbow
Chris Jericho
Bobo Brazil
Bruno Sammartino
Mick Foley
Ivan Putski
Superfly Snuka
Razor Ramon
Argentina Rocca
Jake Roberts
Jimmy Valiant
George Steele
Billy Graham
Triple H
Steve Austin
Ted DiBiase
Wendi Richter
Yokozuna
King Kong Bundy
Buddy Rogers
Undertaker
Jesse Ventura
Shawn Michaels
Ricky Steamboat
The Rock
Fabulous Moolah
Randy Savage
Brock Lesnar
Rick Rude
Iron Sheik
Ernie Ladd
Pedro Morales
Ken Patera
Gorilla Monsoon
Ric Flair
Kane
Junkyard Dog
Paul Orndoff
Haystacks Calhoun
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I agree about Scott Steiner if the man had that character Big Poppa Pump when he was the suplexing athletic machine he would have been REALLY something. Maybe greatest monster heel ever imo, but of course he would have turned due to people cheering him.
Greatest of all-time?
Hulk Hogan
Bret Hart
Hulk Hogan
Andre The Giant
Honky Tonk Man
Ultimate Warrior
Killer Kowalski
Bob Backlund
Sgt. Slaughter
Roddy Piper
Don Muraco
Kurt Angle
Chief Jay Strongbow
Chris Jericho
Bobo Brazil
Bruno Sammartino
Mick Foley
Ivan Putski
Superfly Snuka
Razor Ramon
Argentina Rocca
Jake Roberts
Jimmy Valiant
George Steele
Billy Graham
Triple H
Steve Austin
Ted DiBiase
Wendi Richter
Yokozuna
King Kong Bundy
Buddy Rogers
Undertaker
Jesse Ventura
Shawn Michaels
Ricky Steamboat
The Rock
Fabulous Moolah
Randy Savage
Brock Lesnar
Rick Rude
Iron Sheik
Ernie Ladd
Pedro Morales
Ken Patera
Gorilla Monsoon
Ric Flair
Kane
Junkyard Dog
Paul Orndoff
Haystacks Calhoun
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I agree about Scott Steiner if the man had that character Big Poppa Pump when he was the suplexing athletic machine he would have been REALLY something. Maybe greatest monster heel ever imo, but of course he would have turned due to people cheering him.
Greatest of all-time?
Hulk Hogan
Yeah, Vince has done a good job editing him out of history especially in that A&E Special. He'll get his due when he passes though which is sad.
Man I go and cook some meat on the grill and come bacc to a thread full of entertainers!!!
This shit is about the greatest wrestler, something that Hulk Hogan and one of my fav's, The Ultimate Warrior was not!
Actually some of the guys I see like Kurt Angle are nowhere to the greatest. He was good and improving up until that match with Chris Benoit at the Royal Rumble(which is perhaps one of the greatest ever), but he fell into a groove of trying to have that same kind of match every time. He became a spot monkey imo.
Hogan is the greatest imo because of his pacing and timing. Yeah he did not have a bunch of moves like say Dean Malenko, but its how he used what he had and when to make the crowd into his matches with the psychology. He was a blueprint where guys like Warrior and now even today Cena are copying, but don't come close to Hogan. Only Hogan can be Hogan. He also knew how to make his matches seem epic. Hogan fell into the same rut I blame Angle for, but he was limited physically due to his body type while Angle is an Olympic Gold Medalist for crying out loud who hardly try to incorporate more than the belly to belly suplex he saw Benoit(some places his name is stricken from records, but I think Benouit was better than Angle and even Eddie is better than Angle) make famous. Hogan at least got with the times in the 90's and changed up with the NWO to almost take out the company he built up north.
IMO, if we want to use just plain wrestling Bret Hart might have the crown as he is the best storyteller of all-time even to Vince Mcmahon. I think Flair is great, but HBK and Hart surpassed him.
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Greatest Wrestler: Rick Flair
Greatest Champion: Bruno Sammartino(Never saw him wrestle but if you had the title for almost a decade you're a great champion..imo)Greatest Heel:Rick Rude
Greatest Technical Wrestlerean Malenko
Greatest Mic Skill:Rick Flair
If you go by that, it can't be Bruno. Verne Gagne held the AWA title for 7 straight years (68-75) and Lou Thesz held the NWA title for 8 yrs (48-56).
Angle, a spot monkey? You may be the only person to ever say that about Kurt Angle. You might need to check out the definition of that term. That's for guys like Jack Evans or a young Jeff Hardy, not Kurt Angle, who may use (at the most) two highspots in a match. It could be you haven't seen him in TNA, where he's been tearing it up with great matches with everybody since he got there.
I just can't see how either passed him. Michaels is the better highspot guy and Hart is a better technical wrestler but neither had the longevity or consistency of Flair. I think Bret's great but the only reason he ever got the WWF title is because Vince was going through the steroids scandals of the 90s (same reason CM Punk got it the first time a couple years ago).
The wwe put out a 50 greatest superstars magazine a few years ago and this is the list the company came up with.
Bret Hart
Hulk Hogan
Andre The Giant
Honky Tonk Man
Ultimate Warrior
Killer Kowalski
Bob Backlund
Sgt. Slaughter
Roddy Piper
Don Muraco
Kurt Angle
Chief Jay Strongbow
Chris Jericho
Bobo Brazil
Bruno Sammartino
Mick Foley
Ivan Putski
Superfly Snuka
Razor Ramon
Argentina Rocca
Jake Roberts
Jimmy Valiant
George Steele
Billy Graham
Triple H
Steve Austin
Ted DiBiase
Wendi Richter
Yokozuna
King Kong Bundy
Buddy Rogers
Undertaker
Jesse Ventura
Shawn Michaels
Ricky Steamboat
The Rock
Fabulous Moolah
Randy Savage
Brock Lesnar
Rick Rude
Iron Sheik
Ernie Ladd
Pedro Morales
Ken Patera
Gorilla Monsoon
Ric Flair
Kane
Junkyard Dog
Paul Orndoff
Haystacks Calhoun
-------------------------------
Since it's just a list of WWWF/WWF/WWE performers, I'm okay with the lower standings of guys who did their best work in other companies (though a two time champ like Flair or Kane shouldn't be anywhere near Junkyard Dog, who did very little) but Bob Backlund not being in the top five is complete bullshit. Dude was on top for 5 years and by the middle of his run was selling out MSG on his own without Bruno or Dusty to help with the gate. Warrior and Kowalski (that's HHH influence there) do not belong above Backlund.
Now this may a bit long for some, but I want to really break down why I made my comments.
Oh I HAVE seen people calling Angle a spot monkey at places that are knowledgeable. I like Kurt Angle, but really look at his matches prior to the Benoit match and post Benoit match from Royal Rumble 2005. He tries to emulate that match every time now. Analyze HBK/Angle from WM 20 and his match with Taker from No Way Out that year which were exceptions because he's alright when someone's holding his hand, but when he has to lead a match he hasn't got a clue imo and he even stated during his early days on mainstream sports show up in Canada he couldn't construct a match on his own.
However, that was back in his first couple of years, but saying that alone says something.i really enjoyed the last match i saw of kurt in japan against tanahashi. He wrestled like a guy with a strong background in amateur wrestling, but again he had someone holding his hand during the match.
I have seen Kurt Angle in TNA and he has added moves to his repetoire lately with the frog splash, the Harlem Hangover and new submissions on a rare occassion. So it looks like he is eager to try and move beyond what he has been doing in the past.
However this kick out of 17 finishers is getting a bit redundant and annoying at the moment. I enjoy his matches for the most part, but I think they lack a lot of psyhcology at times and when he works a body part it doesn't really seem to mean anything towards the end of the match... or if his body part is broken down he fails to sell it.
I do like Kurt Angle, I would put alot of wrestlers above him though in terms of in ring ability, but this topic is about greatest of all-time and he simply isn't. I'd put older names like Billy Robinson, Nick Bockwinkle, Harley Race, Verne Gagne, Danny Hodge, The Destroyer, Bert Assirati (from what I've read and heard, one of the best "hookers EVER), Johnny Valentine, and quite a few others in front of him.
I'd say Angle is top 25-30 in his prime of 98-2001 and that's being generous. Early Kurt was great, but then he got carried away with the pops he got in big matches and went to get them in all matches - ruining his in ring style for ever. For the record, that Ironman with Brock and Kurt on Smackdown was the drizzling shits. Vince gave it away on FREE television for a reason.
One critic made this comment about Angle "But as he's prove for over 11 years now, putting confidence in Kurt Angle to pull of a great match without an in ring babysitter, is the the equivalent of expecting Kurt to behave in a Pittsburgh Strip Club full of big titty black women...The results aren't going to be good".
Now onto the Michaels/Hart/Flair debate. Flair revolutionized mic skills with his playboy type persona. And the man was a very good to great technician in ring. Even Bret Hart said Flair qualifies as a great technician(in wcw he said this meaning Flair possessed the talents and athleticism to work a great match) although during his 1st wwf run sometimes he believed Flair was lost in the ring or was a bit disappointed because he believed Flair's hype as being the greatest(he even told Vince this backstage after a match with comments like "30 minutes of non stop non psychology"). This topic is about GREATER OF ALL-TIME!
Bret Hart DID NOT get the belt just because of the steroid trial. Bret Hart got the title because he threatened to jump to wcw after his match with British Bulldog at SummerSlam 92 which was the REAL main event of the show which was at the time was the biggest gate in company's history. Hart was becoming really over as the "real wrestler" to fans who were getting tired of the superman shows of Hogan and Warrior at the time. If anything the company always tried to push someone else ignoring the obvious and had to go back to Hart(eg: Diesel's flop reign and Luger not being able to draw as a face). Remember in 1992 Ric Flair was IN the company and Vince still gave the ball to Bret Hart so what does that say? Vince also called the greatest in ring story teller of all-time. Why didn't Vince go after Flair when Flair had all those WCW problems with Bischoff in 1998?
I'm not denying that flair was not great in NWA. Hell he was the best ever in late 70s and 80s with Bob Backlund over in wwwf. There was no one after Buddy rogers(whom he stole his Nature Boy persona) that was as charismatic as Flair, but the guy thought that the style which made him successful in 70's and 80's would live forever and make him successful in 90's too. That's where the whole problem starts. "Adaptation" is the word here. Flair failed to adapt to the changes in wrestling. He was doing the same thing which he was doing 15 years ago, which became completely outdated.
Okay look at this match and tell me who was the star WRESTLER in it in Hart vs. Flair? Also, this is not about who won either, but the actual match itself.
I will cut this short with HBK. I say watch a DVD with all three of these guys with casual fans and see who and what matches people will pay more attention to over the course of their whole careers. HBK was indeed influenced by Flair(whom Flair admitted surpassed him as he could put on a clinic like the ironman with Bret and then do a ladder match to a HIAC match etc you get the point).
The list was random and not in any particular order as even the company knows ranking the stars would cause too much problems.
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It says Kurt Angle was learning with the best guys in the business at the time. I actually wasn't an Angle fan for a long time. I thought he was good but forced on me too fast and switched back and forth too much (not his fault either thing).
You talk like Angle is Lex Luger and he's not. It's one thing to have great matches with Samoa Joe or AJ Styles, everyone does. But he's had them with Ken Anderson, who still had huge queston marks on him, and he resurrected Jeff Jarrett, who hadn't had a great match in years. Then he made Matt Morgan look like a superstar. And he works different matches with AJ than he did Desmond Wolfe which are different than what he does with Abyss.
That's the difference between working in the very scripted WWE and TNA, which books their matches similar to the way WCW used to, where the guys do most of it in the ring.
He's never done the Harlem Hangover (a rolling legdrop from the top) to my knowledge but he did debut a 360 double kneedrop on Sting as Bound For Glory.
That's a weakness a lot of contemporary wrestlers have when it comes to working bodyparts. But the kicking out is all booking and something Russo likes worked in (something he stole from ECW).
I would never say he's the greatest, he's on that second tier with HHH but he's definitely one of the best in-ring guys of the last 20-30 years and when he finished that match with Jeff Hardy with a cracked rib and then wrestled the next night, taking the move that cracked his rib 4 more times, he showed he had a ton of old school mentality in him.
Wait. You can't say he was in his prime in 98-01, say he was great, AND say he was carried. I agree with the last one but definitely not the first two. He got two years of Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho so with his natural ability, of course he would have good to great matches.
I'm not a fan of the Ironman match either. I thought it was alright but too many pinfalls for me and too much repetition of the same holds. Is that Kurt's fault though or maybe the fault of the younger, less experienced Brock and the way it was produced? Those two guys did have a good match at WrestleMania.
If that critic said that in the last few years, he's an idiot.One critic made this comment about Angle "But as he's prove for over 11 years now, putting confidence in Kurt Angle to pull of a great match without an in ring babysitter, is the the equivalent of expecting Kurt to behave in a Pittsburgh Strip Club full of big titty black women...The results aren't going to be good".
So Bret didn't like working with Flair. Steamboat did. Harley did. Bret Hart didn't wrestle Ric Flair in his element, he wrestled him in the WWF of 15 min. World title matches, where Bret had been for 8 yrs. Plus he was over 40 yrs old, far from his peak. When they wrestled for the title, Flair was injured and even says he didn't give Bret the type of match he deserved. And Bret is an incredible hypocrite and a whiner. He complained about Flair chopping him stiffly but says nothing about Benoit or Steve Austin whopping the shit out of him.
That's exactly why he got the title. They were hiding the muscleheads and they were expanding into Europe where Bret was very popular.
I agree they kept overlooking Hart, first with Hogan, then Luger, then Diesel, then Shawn Michaels. But the question has to be asked, if Bret was putting butts in seats (domestically) and selling merch, would they have kept trying to find someone else to carry the belt?
Flair was old in 92 and couldn't be counted on to carry the WWF at that point for a long time. It's not like Bret was picked over a 30 yr old Ric Flair.
Vince has always liked Bret but it never seemed like he saw Bret as long term World champion material until the the end.
Flair was still under contract with WCW and owed a lot of money. Bischoff didn't just let Flair go because he knew Vince would pick him up. Which he did as soon as WCW died and he could afford him.
Not breaking any news when you say he got his gimmick from Buddy Rogers but Rogers got his gimmick from Gorgeous George and Lord Landowne from the 30s.
Of course he was doing the same thing in the 90s he did in the 80s: it was crazy over. By the 90s, he was older and limited in the ring but his persona (which did undergo subtle changes over the years) was still getting some of the biggest pops and ratings during the Monday Night Wars. I can't think of one wrestler that changed his gimmick while it was still drawing (heel/face turns don't count as changing your gimmick).
Meaningless. Hart was in his prime while Flair was a fading veteran. Hart was supposed to be the leader of that match. Same with Michaels at WM, though Michaels wasn't in his prime but he was closer to his than Flair.
If I used the entire dvd collections, it would be Flair because his promos would have even casual fans cracking and waiting to see him wrestle. Michaels' highspots and gimmick matches would be exciting and sway them if I leave the interviews out. Still, when you talk about The Greatest, promo ability and drawing ability have to be accounted for and neither Bret nor Shawn drew big money anywhere near as long as Ric Flair while I've seen Bret get chewed up in promos with Flair, Austin, Piper and even Curt Hennig.
The list was random and not in any particular order as even the company knows ranking the stars would cause too much problems.[/QUOTE]
Handsome Jimmy Valiant
Now this guy might have made the greatest transformation ever. He went from "Handsome" Jimmy the tag wrestler in the WWWF to "Handsome" Jimmy the top singles heel in Memphis (and one of their biggest draws ever) to "Boogie Woogie Man" Jimmy Valiant in MidAtlantic, one of the most beloved babyfaces of the area.
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That's a weakness a lot of contemporary wrestlers have when it comes to working bodyparts. But the kicking out is all booking and something Russo likes worked in (something he stole from ECW).
Why is it then it happens in KURT ANGLE'S matches and hardly anyone else? Because Angle has more power in TNA than he ever did in WWE. He has a say in constructing his matches just like he did in the latter years of his wwe career.
I would never say he's the greatest, he's on that second tier with HHH but he's definitely one of the best in-ring guys of the last 20-30 years and when he finished that match with Jeff Hardy with a cracked rib and then wrestled the next night, taking the move that cracked his rib 4 more times, he showed he had a ton of old school mentality in him.
I don't dispute that, but he is not even top ten and he is getting some drops for being Greatest of all-time.
Heavily scripted or broadway Angle STILL is not in the league of the true all-time greats imo. Has Angle REALLY done a broadway type match that rivals the likes of guys like Flair, Race, or even Backlund? No he hasn't.
Okay, so show me matches where Angle carried someone to greater levels like someone like a Ric Flair or Bret Hart. I'm waiting as his best matches are with technical wizards. Who has Angle elevated into a superstar?
Ok to make an argument's sake let's say Hart and Flair have issues. You bring up Flair was not in his element, but that title match was not a 15 minute tv match. I know Flair had an inner ear imbalance at the time, but ever wonder why Vince never put the feud into a heavy tv rotation and for Survivor Series?
It was a house show match which is constructed differently. Hart also did Flair-like marathons as his match with his brother at SummerSlam 94 in the cage is considered one of the greatest of all-time. To make an argument's sake I will say Flair probably hindered by Vince due to him being Mr. NWA in terms of doing his trademark matches.
With that said Flair was given perhaps the greatest Rumble victory ever for the title in which his true talent was displayed as the 60 minute man, so that kills the idea that Vince did not utilize Flair how he should have been completely. Hart proclaimed in 1996-1998 Austin was the best in the world.
It's insider knowledge Bret got the title because he was going to jump ship(Bret knew his stock was rising and to stop him gave in to his demand for the title) and yeah they were going for youth, but that didn't really start to kick in until a year and half later as a mission statement. The steroid thing could have been smoke and mirrored with Ric Flair carrying the strap and him being a name(as his name was brought up in Sports Illustrated as someone being overlooked for guys like Luger because of his physique instead of his in ring talent), but Vince knew Hart was gaining steam. Look at the SummerSlam 92 match and Bret's reaction in the main event.
I also think putting the decline on Bret Hart in 1992 is a bit unfair since the company was getting crushed in the media for the sex and steroid scandal. Everyone's popularity was getting a hit including Hogan who got out of dodge. Even Warrior took off later in the year. Domestically the industry was getting a black eye due to the media being on their ass about steroids and the sex scandal. You are not taking into account that fans were starting to CHEER for Bret Hart and one match especially in Nassau Coliseum on a house show made the company realize Hart was becoming huge with fans and changed his SummerSlam match from being with Dibiase to main eventing SummerSlam. It's not by accident.
Vince Mcmahon was a hard head in the early 90's and was not listening to the market. He wanted another Hulk Hogan, while he saw Hart as someone who would bring back the RAWness of the business(this was around the time RAW was created where the company wanted the business to seem intimate and real again to fans like it was in the early 80's which is why it originated from Manhattan Centre.
It finally hit Vince that there would be no next Hogan as Hogan is unique and killing him in wcw with his heel turn. Why did it take that for Vince to realize the audience had changed? If Austin was getting the pops he did in 97 in 92 or 93 he would have turned him into Hogan circa 90's with stupid stuff like the Lex Express. There were fans holding signs saying Vince don't ruin Austin which meant to leave Austin the hell alone with how he was rising to the top and he pretty much did. Why also do you think Vince gave Bret that 20 year contract so he wouldn't jump ship in 1996? Bret was the MVP of the company until HBK started to rival him and Austin became popular.
Funny as I see people using Billy Graham as an excuse to discount Hogan why when it is brought up for Flair and his predecessor is it brushed off? It was crazy over? How so when the business was tanking for most of the 90's until the nWo storyline and Austin/Hart/America/Canada then Vince/Austin took off? Would Flair have been "crazy over" if the NWO was so popular that wcw's only figment of tradition was Flair's 4 horsemen? Goldberg pretty much came and boosted ratings for wcw in 1998 before the inevitable crash in 1999 and 2000.
Meaningless MATCH ON PPV for Bret Hart's WCW DEBUT? You do remember the heat these two guys had prior to this right with Hart's commentary in the news about him in Calgary before joining wcw? I'm not the one saying RIC FLAIR is the GREATEST OF ALL-TIMES. If he is he would be carrying that match and not Hart. Let me ask you this. How many guys were to lead HBK or Hart in their matches even passed their prime?
Yes Flair kills these guys with mic work that will be staight up lying if I said otherwise although a guy like Hart's promo style wasn't suppose to be like Flair's anyways. I think Hart's best mic work came in the USA/CANADA feud and the HBK feud where it was less scripted and more worked shoot oriented. HBK isn't shabby on the mic either. Again, if you look at the complete product in the days when Hart and HBK were on top compared to Austin it is no comparison.
The company had MUCH MORE DEPTH AND TALENT under Austin's reign which many people ignore when they say Hart and HBK didn't draw as big. DIESEL is actually the lowest drawing champion in history, but then you take into account Kevin Nash's run in wcw and you have to see yourself it was the totality of the product and how the characters/persona was used to attract the audiences. I would take Nash in the NWO any day over Nash as Diesel wearing the title although his matches were stronger as Diesel.
Maybe because it's not seen as a big detriment to his matches. Since he generally has one of the best matches on any card he's on, if he's put together his matches, that's a good thing.
He never gets the opportunity because that's not how the business works anymore. Flair and Race had to do it as NWA champion. But even Flair didn't have to do it after most of the territories shut down, outside of his matches with Steamboat in 89 and 94.
Seriously, you don't know. He had a great 40 min. match with Rhino on Impact a couple year ago. He gave Matt Morgan probably his best match ever last year. He dragged a damn near broken down Sting to a good match at BFG two years ago and did it again last year (when Sting was even older and more damaged) on Impact. He's had several good to borderline great matches with Abyss. He gave Mr. Anderson his best match ever at Lockdown this year. C'mon, man. Let's stop acting like Kurt Angle is Lex Luger here.
No I don't wonder that at all because I know the answer. Flair was older and should have been winding down. He worked injured when he dropped the belt to Hart and was still injured when they did some house show rematches.
Vince was going younger at that point (see how Savage wasn't main eventing either). His time was running out. You're comparing a guy coming into his prime with one past his.
It wasn't a house show, it was a tv taping. I know he did the matches with Owen but that was two years later after they put the belt back on Hogan and tried to push Luger.
The Rumble is still Flair's greatest WWF match but using Flair correctly isn't just having him work one 60 min gimmick battle royal. Flair rarely got to work the mic in the WWF like he did the NWA and was saddled with Bobby Heenan and Curt Hennig.
Austin might have been the best at that time. Relevance?
You are remembering this all wrong. First the youth movement was just getting started with the pushes of Bret, Razor Ramon, and Shawn Michaels. 80s vets like Flair and Savage were being phased out.
As soon as the steroid scandal died down, they put the belt back on Hogan and then Diesel, after failing with Luger.
SummerSlam drew huge because Bret was extremely popular internationally and because Davey Boy Smith was Britain's most popular wrestler.
No one is disputing how popular Bret was but he was seen for a long time as a steady guy who brought credibility to the title but not someone to build the company on. That's hard to argue when the belt was taken off him and other guy's were given runs while he feuded with pirates and Shaolin monks.
I agree.
It's never hit Vince there would be no next Hulk Hogan, what do you think John Cena is supposed to be?
He gave Bret that contract because having Bret leaving at that time would have been an incredible blow since Nash, Hall Piper had just left and Davey almost left.
Bret was the MVP but Vince saw more in Michaels and pushed him ahead of Bret, cutting short his run on top, pissing Bret off majorly.
Who's brushing it off? It's just old news. Wrestlers reuse gimmicks. Rogers wasn't exactly an original so to say Flair ripped him off, at least know or tell the whole story.
It was crazy over because Flair got some of the highest ratings during the hottest era of the sport. His return to Nitro to reform the Horsemen was a huge ratings draw.
Business in WCW was already on the rise before the nWo due to the Flair-Savage feud (don't take my word, look it up).
I'm not saying the match is meaningless just that it's meaningless to the point you're trying to make with it.
To say Flair should be carrying matches no matter what his age is just ridiculous. That's like thinking Ali should have still been a great fighter no matter what age he was.
Neither Bret nor Shawn wrestled as long or as many matches as Flair so they never had to be carried. Still, it's not a case of him just laying there while they do all the work.
Austin again? I agree that those were his best promos.
He wrestled better comp as Diesel and much more as a singles.
Michaels and Hart fans can say the business was dipping while they were on top but since they were the champs, they have to take some of the blame for that. That comes with being champion. Flair drew for 20 years and stayed relevent for even longer. He survived and thrived during every change wrestling went through: from territories to big national companies to highly rated cable shows. Austin can be said to be a bigger draw and nearly on par as a wrestler and promo but his run on top was relatively shot compared to Flair.
Yeah he was better wrestler wise as Diesel I agree, but his charisma was hindered with the stupid cookie cutter good guy crap which hurt his drawing power. Too bad it took the company until his last few months to push him correctly which in hindsight made him even more big entering wcw to "invade it".
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Favorite and best to ever do it.........The Bad Guy
The Razor's Edge is definitely the best signature move EVAR!
I still don't know how niggas' necks weren't broken off that shit.
The Razor's Edge is definitely the best signature move EVAR!
I still don't know how niggas' necks weren't broken off that shit.
Hernandez's Border Toss is better than the Razor's Edge....
He threw Devon damn near across the ring with it....and Devon ain't a cruiserweight either.
The best signature move to me is between The Canadian Destroyer, The Angel's Wings, The Burning Hammer, Brainbustahhhh, and the Ron Simmons/Arn Anderson spinebuster.
Canadian Destroyer is the best ever...but peep this shit!The Razor's Edge is definitely the best signature move EVAR!
I still don't know how niggas' necks weren't broken off that shit.
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most of my fellow bgolers said best for me... but ummmm all i got 2 say is from the moment i saw this guy he was and still is my favorite wrestler of all time...... i learned swag from this dude on some real SHIT........ they pay salute to the NATURE BOY ERRYTIME someone chops another.... so ummm....
"Whoo"
"Whoo"
You are not getting what I'm talking about. I'm talking about going with synergy with the crowd and adapting and YES that does still happen. Hogan vs. Rock is the last famous match where the wrestlers adapted on the fly to the crowd reaction. If anything the business should have wrestlers do that more, but wwe training prevents that. Austin even commented on this about 4 years ago saying everyone is like a robot.
Austin's right. Too many matches are overly scripted and produced and that happens in both national companies but to different degrees with WWE being by far the worst offender. But let's be honest on the Rock/Hogan match. It had a lot of energy and they worked it but that wasn't exactly a great wrestling match. The biggest star of that match was that rabid Toronto crowd.
AGAIN, has anyone been elevated to superstar status like how Flair elevated Sting or even Hogan elevated Ultimate Warrior at WM VI. Rhino is known from his ECW days and was over in wwe. Angle didn't "make hi". Who has Angle "made". Even HHH who a lot of people rag on has made people or at least elevated them such as Benoit and Batista.
Angle elevated them in the ring but if the booking drops the ball, that's not on him. When you mention what Flair did for Sting (and countless others) the companies then got behind those guys. Matt Morgan and Desmond Wolfe were unknown quantities on a national scale and Angle made them look like stars (Wolfe was already great but who knew that outside ROH's much smaller fanbase?). Ken Anderson had become a guy who starting to be looked at as "snakebit" and even overrated until his cage match with Angle at Lockdown.
Elevating a guy doesn't end in the ring, it becomes the responisibility of the company. Hogan put over Warrior but Warrior flopped. Flair put over Sting in 91, Sting flopped.
AGAIN, make this argument with Hogan and Rock at WM 18 where Hogan was way past his prime, but still outshone The Rock because of his ALL-TIME greatness that crosses generations. If Flair was winding down and so on why did he have a much better match with Vader a year later at Starcade? You make it seem like Flair was a shell of his former self and a has been like today.
Hogan shined not for anything he did in the ring (that was rarely part of the equation anyway) but because he's ALWAYS been huge in Toronto. He got the majority of the cheers at WM6 against Warrior in Toronto. He and Orndorff drew 70k in 86 in that city. Flair was a shell of his former self by then but he still had enough to cover it and he was wrestling Vader (a great big man worker) in Charlotte, where he's HUGE at his event, Starrcade. He wasn't a hasbeen, no but he was on the far side of his prime. He was also in his element with WCW and had worked Vader many more times before Starrcade and had familiarity. The only really good match he had with Hart (they did have some good WWF matches but nothing special) was in WCW at Souled Out. I fail to see how it's a blemish on Flair that he needed to be carried in his later years after spending 20+ carrying other people.
AGAIN excuses. How come someone like Austin can be given limitations and turn it around to something special. I'm assuming you know about the original plans for Austin and how Austin balked at it and came up with Stone Cold. He worked with what he was given and ran with it. Yes, Flair was not able to completely be the Nature Boy as he was in the NWA, BUT it is not like he wasn't given adult storylines to work with like the one he had with Randy Savage and Elizabeth for WM VIII which was raw for back then.
Whoah, that's not what happened with Austin. He was allowed to take control of his gimmick in a failing WWF and became "Stone Cold". He wasn't exactly setting the world on fire as The Ringmaster, when he wasn't cutting the same type of promos that would later make him millions. He was not given "Stone Cold", he created it.
No one who saw Ric Flair in the 80s on TBS can say that was what he did in the WWF in 91-93. Ric Flair doesn't need goofy stories just the mic, which he didn't get nearly enough of. They didn't even refer to his as "Nature Boy" during that run. For an example of how letting a guy who's strongest asset is his mouth, look at how they brought Lawler in, gave him the mic, and he drew money with lackluster matches. That's not what they did with Flair in 91.
I remember correctly. You are right there was a youth movement. Hogan was given back the belt because house attendance was down and he demanded the belt. It's no coincidence that when Hogan was using that belt as his toy(in his words when he was in Japan) Vince was done with him for good. It was a toss up between Bret and Luger to replace him for good. Hart won out when Luger had too much apathy with his push.
Yep, except the part of Vince being done with Hulk for good. We see how that worked out.
Can't blame Mcmahon too much as his company was rivaling the NFL for making money in the 80's to having red tape after all the scandals. He tried to find another magic bullet, but there was none as the landscape and audience was asking for somethin different(which ECW had the blueprint for). As you said Hart went against Pirates and Shaolin Monks(although I know who you are talking about and that match was a classic tv match).
Don't forget his matches with 6'9 dentists.
His matches with Hakushi and Jean Lafitte were good but were wastes of Bret's time. They were midcarders who hadn't done anything to be in the ring with a former World champion. Bret Hart was seen as a fallback just in case whoever Vince felt was going to draw more money didn't work out (Diesel, Luger, Hogan).
Once the product went through its proper change who was at the forefront of the main drawing storylines with Austin, Taker, and HBK? Yeah it was Bret. I won't even go into how Bret's Montreal Screwjob was the culprit for the company getting PR and twisting it into the Mcmahon/Austin storyline that is one of the greatest in history. If Bret was so run of the mill there would have no real backlash and huge anticipation for his going down south to WCW.
I'm not saying Bret was run of the mill, I'm saying he was treating like he was for most of his WWF run, even when he was winning championships.
But even while Bret was at the center with the New Hart Foundation, alongside Shawn, Taker, and Austin, business still wasn't great domestically and they were getting killed by WCW. So in essence, he still wasn't drawing money. They were doing the same business with him on the sidelines after the Ironman match as they were with him there. They didn't take off until he and Shawn left and Austin was the top guy.
Yeah I see what you're saying in this instance, BUT Cena's psuh(not so much today as in 2005-7 which I kind of agreed with btw) was different to a new generation since it wasn't done since Hogan's hey day. There is a generation gap. In the 90's trying to do it with Ultimate Warrior then Diesel and so on with Hogan still around(and still viable as a wrestler) was not a good idea.
No, it was not. But Vince likes big roided up guys so they will always get the benefit of the doubt and the big pushes.
Won't deny any of this. You are correct as I don't have to look it up I know it already. I brought it up because I see Hogan's detractors bringing up Superstar Billy Graham as a reason to not give Hogan the crown as g.o.a.t. Flair has the same fault, but it's never brought up.
Okay. I never use the fact that a guy doesn't create an entire gimmick from whole cloth against him. I'm a Hogan detractor in a lot of ways but not on that point.
Very glad you bring this up because FLAIR FANATICS STILL SAY Flair can carry a broom stick to a 5 star match which is absolute nonsense. He has not been able to since 93 imo. I put this Hart/Flair match into the argument to prove that he is not almighty from the 70's til today which many bring up his catalog. He declined just like everyone else and obviously so he is human. Flair is actually worse than Ali in that he has stayed WAY past his expiry date. At least Vince try to shine it up at WM 24 and he still ruined it coming back to TNA.
I've been a Flair fan since he was winning US and tag titles and I know he's not that guy anymore and hasn't been for a long time.
I don't have a problem with his still wrestling, as long as it's very rare and he's putting young people like Jay Lethal over. It's not like he's the first guy to wrestle WAY past his prime. I just say he's the greatest ever, not the greatest right now.
Vince killed him when he turned him. Diesel probably would have done better business as a monster heel, crushing dudes like he started out than as "Big Daddy Cool" with his smirks and his shades. He just wasn't that interesting as a babyface.
Austin's right. Too many matches are overly scripted and produced and that happens in both national companies but to different degrees with WWE being by far the worst offender. But let's be honest on the Rock/Hogan match. It had a lot of energy and they worked it but that wasn't exactly a great wrestling match. The biggest star of that match was that rabid Toronto crowd.
AGAIN, has anyone been elevated to superstar status like how Flair elevated Sting or even Hogan elevated Ultimate Warrior at WM VI. Rhino is known from his ECW days and was over in wwe. Angle didn't "make hi". Who has Angle "made". Even HHH who a lot of people rag on has made people or at least elevated them such as Benoit and Batista.
Angle elevated them in the ring but if the booking drops the ball, that's not on him. When you mention what Flair did for Sting (and countless others) the companies then got behind those guys. Matt Morgan and Desmond Wolfe were unknown quantities on a national scale and Angle made them look like stars (Wolfe was already great but who knew that outside ROH's much smaller fanbase?). Ken Anderson had become a guy who starting to be looked at as "snakebit" and even overrated until his cage match with Angle at Lockdown.
Elevating a guy doesn't end in the ring, it becomes the responisibility of the company. Hogan put over Warrior but Warrior flopped. Flair put over Sting in 91, Sting flopped.
AGAIN, make this argument with Hogan and Rock at WM 18 where Hogan was way past his prime, but still outshone The Rock because of his ALL-TIME greatness that crosses generations. If Flair was winding down and so on why did he have a much better match with Vader a year later at Starcade? You make it seem like Flair was a shell of his former self and a has been like today.
Hogan shined not for anything he did in the ring (that was rarely part of the equation anyway) but because he's ALWAYS been huge in Toronto. He got the majority of the cheers at WM6 against Warrior in Toronto. He and Orndorff drew 70k in 86 in that city. Flair was a shell of his former self by then but he still had enough to cover it and he was wrestling Vader (a great big man worker) in Charlotte, where he's HUGE at his event, Starrcade. He wasn't a hasbeen, no but he was on the far side of his prime. He was also in his element with WCW and had worked Vader many more times before Starrcade and had familiarity. The only really good match he had with Hart (they did have some good WWF matches but nothing special) was in WCW at Souled Out. I fail to see how it's a blemish on Flair that he needed to be carried in his later years after spending 20+ carrying other people.
AGAIN excuses. How come someone like Austin can be given limitations and turn it around to something special. I'm assuming you know about the original plans for Austin and how Austin balked at it and came up with Stone Cold. He worked with what he was given and ran with it. Yes, Flair was not able to completely be the Nature Boy as he was in the NWA, BUT it is not like he wasn't given adult storylines to work with like the one he had with Randy Savage and Elizabeth for WM VIII which was raw for back then.
Whoah, that's not what happened with Austin. He was allowed to take control of his gimmick in a failing WWF and became "Stone Cold". He wasn't exactly setting the world on fire as The Ringmaster, when he wasn't cutting the same type of promos that would later make him millions. He was not given "Stone Cold", he created it.
No one who saw Ric Flair in the 80s on TBS can say that was what he did in the WWF in 91-93. Ric Flair doesn't need goofy stories just the mic, which he didn't get nearly enough of. They didn't even refer to his as "Nature Boy" during that run. For an example of how letting a guy who's strongest asset is his mouth, look at how they brought Lawler in, gave him the mic, and he drew money with lackluster matches. That's not what they did with Flair in 91.
I remember correctly. You are right there was a youth movement. Hogan was given back the belt because house attendance was down and he demanded the belt. It's no coincidence that when Hogan was using that belt as his toy(in his words when he was in Japan) Vince was done with him for good. It was a toss up between Bret and Luger to replace him for good. Hart won out when Luger had too much apathy with his push.
Yep, except the part of Vince being done with Hulk for good. We see how that worked out.
Can't blame Mcmahon too much as his company was rivaling the NFL for making money in the 80's to having red tape after all the scandals. He tried to find another magic bullet, but there was none as the landscape and audience was asking for somethin different(which ECW had the blueprint for). As you said Hart went against Pirates and Shaolin Monks(although I know who you are talking about and that match was a classic tv match).
Don't forget his matches with 6'9 dentists.
His matches with Hakushi and Jean Lafitte were good but were wastes of Bret's time. They were midcarders who hadn't done anything to be in the ring with a former World champion. Bret Hart was seen as a fallback just in case whoever Vince felt was going to draw more money didn't work out (Diesel, Luger, Hogan).
Once the product went through its proper change who was at the forefront of the main drawing storylines with Austin, Taker, and HBK? Yeah it was Bret. I won't even go into how Bret's Montreal Screwjob was the culprit for the company getting PR and twisting it into the Mcmahon/Austin storyline that is one of the greatest in history. If Bret was so run of the mill there would have no real backlash and huge anticipation for his going down south to WCW.
I'm not saying Bret was run of the mill, I'm saying he was treating like he was for most of his WWF run, even when he was winning championships.
But even while Bret was at the center with the New Hart Foundation, alongside Shawn, Taker, and Austin, business still wasn't great domestically and they were getting killed by WCW. So in essence, he still wasn't drawing money. They were doing the same business with him on the sidelines after the Ironman match as they were with him there. They didn't take off until he and Shawn left and Austin was the top guy.
Yeah I see what you're saying in this instance, BUT Cena's psuh(not so much today as in 2005-7 which I kind of agreed with btw) was different to a new generation since it wasn't done since Hogan's hey day. There is a generation gap. In the 90's trying to do it with Ultimate Warrior then Diesel and so on with Hogan still around(and still viable as a wrestler) was not a good idea.
No, it was not. But Vince likes big roided up guys so they will always get the benefit of the doubt and the big pushes.
Won't deny any of this. You are correct as I don't have to look it up I know it already. I brought it up because I see Hogan's detractors bringing up Superstar Billy Graham as a reason to not give Hogan the crown as g.o.a.t. Flair has the same fault, but it's never brought up.
Okay. I never use the fact that a guy doesn't create an entire gimmick from whole cloth against him. I'm a Hogan detractor in a lot of ways but not on that point.
Very glad you bring this up because FLAIR FANATICS STILL SAY Flair can carry a broom stick to a 5 star match which is absolute nonsense. He has not been able to since 93 imo. I put this Hart/Flair match into the argument to prove that he is not almighty from the 70's til today which many bring up his catalog. He declined just like everyone else and obviously so he is human. Flair is actually worse than Ali in that he has stayed WAY past his expiry date. At least Vince try to shine it up at WM 24 and he still ruined it coming back to TNA.
I've been a Flair fan since he was winning US and tag titles and I know he's not that guy anymore and hasn't been for a long time.
I don't have a problem with his still wrestling, as long as it's very rare and he's putting young people like Jay Lethal over. It's not like he's the first guy to wrestle WAY past his prime. I just say he's the greatest ever, not the greatest right now.
Vince killed him when he turned him. Diesel probably would have done better business as a monster heel, crushing dudes like he started out than as "Big Daddy Cool" with his smirks and his shades. He just wasn't that interesting as a babyface.
HOW ABOUT THE GREATEST MATCH
heres 2 of them
heres 2 of them
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Both of those are great but I have to lean with Flair-Steamboat 89 either at the Clash where they went 58 minutes or Music City Showdown where Flair won the title back.
Big honorable mention to the Midnight Express vs. the Fantastics at the first Clash. That still might be the best tag match I've ever seen.
Any picks for Greatest Tag Team? We've touched on them but didn't stick with them.
I got Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard with the Road Warriors, Bobby and Stan-Midnight Express, Harlem Heat, the Dudley Boys/Team 3D, and the Steiners right behind them in no particular order.
Big honorable mention to the Midnight Express vs. the Fantastics at the first Clash. That still might be the best tag match I've ever seen.
Any picks for Greatest Tag Team? We've touched on them but didn't stick with them.
I got Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard with the Road Warriors, Bobby and Stan-Midnight Express, Harlem Heat, the Dudley Boys/Team 3D, and the Steiners right behind them in no particular order.
Goldberg's entrance was bad ass!!! I always loved seeing it. It was pretty damn simple, but it was cool as hell. Then when the fans chanted his name it made it even better. I don't know where he is on the list of greatest, but Goldberg was a bad MF for a while. WCW was the shit too. I liked the WWF, but WCW had a nice run for a minute. The competition they had with each other kept the product better. Even ECW was doing OK. Then WCW went out of business, WWF died and became WWE, and at some point in there I grew out of all that shit and moved on. Now, all I have are memories, because I'll be damned if at almost 31 years old I'm gonna sit down and watch wrestling now...
Goldberg's entrance was bad ass!!! I always loved seeing it. It was pretty damn simple, but it was cool as hell. Then when the fans chanted his name it made it even better. I don't know where he is on the list of greatest, but Goldberg was a bad MF for a while. WCW was the shit too. I liked the WWF, but WCW had a nice run for a minute. The competition they had with each other kept the product better. Even ECW was doing OK. Then WCW went out of business, WWF died and became WWE, and at some point in there I grew out of all that shit and moved on. Now, all I have are memories, because I'll be damned if at almost 31 years old I'm gonna sit down and watch wrestling now...
If a company put on a product that could engage you as an adult, you'd watch. Seriously, how much worse is it than some of the other stuff you watch now at 31? You know you don't sit around watching History Channel all day.
If a company put on a product that could engage you as an adult, you'd watch. Seriously, how much worse is it than some of the other stuff you watch now at 31? You know you don't sit around watching History Channel all day.
Whoa, slow down playa. I'm not 31 yet...
...I have a little more than 2 months before that happens. Like I said, I'm ALMOST there......That being said, good point though, I don't spend all day watching the news. I was just saying that at this point, I'm so out of touch with wrestling I can't get in to it anymore. Plus, I really liked when there was more than one brand. WWE is the only big one around. At some point they got wack to me and I looked at them as more soap opera than actual competition. I think Vince was way too focused on selling sex and entertainment than anything else. After a while it was more about that than anything else. I do know TNA is around, but I can't really rock with them too tough. I've even flipped past it and said "Oh shit, that's _____ I didn't know he still wrestled"... But, outside of maybe stopping to see that for a second, I can't really get in to it any more. That's just me though. I have enough memories to last for the rest of my time. If cats my age or older still enjoy wrestling, cool. I can't knock them for that. They might not get how I can watch and enjoy things like Family Guy, so it's all relative...Whoa, slow down playa. I'm not 31 yet...
That's how my brother is. He grew up in it just like me but when it got down to one company, he lost interest. He'll ask me every once in a while about a particular somebody and will sit watch when he's at my house and I it on (he loved the Jay Lethal-Ric Flair stand off a couple months ago). But in general, he's out.
There are some great names in here. Cats have mentioned everyone from Hogan, Flair, Kolov, Steamboat, Double A, and many others that came to (my) mind in thinking about this topic. Even cats like New Jack, Sabu, and Jeff HArdy got mentioned. That's what's up. That being said, let me ask a question about the Great Muta. How in the fuck did he hold that green shit in his mouth for that damn long, and then spit it out and have it be like a mist or dust? I've wondered that for year. Does anyone know or have any theories?
Once again, I ask, does anybody know how he did that shit?
Another underrated tag match was the young pistols(or southern boys)-midnight express in 90
now i had put the Steiners as the greatest tag team, the in not any order Road Warriors, Eaton and Lane, Tully and Arn, Dr.Death and Bam Bam gordy, Ole and Gene anderson,British bulldogs,Dr.Death and Ted Dibiase, Art Barr and Eddy Gurrero , and Gerry and jack Brisco
Greatest Tag Teams Ever, no particular order.
Legion of Doom/Road Warriors intense personalities, kick ass, great intense promos
Miracle Violence Connection(Dr. Death Steve Williams & Terry Bam Bam Gordy) - Once bitter rivals now if there was a badder tag team then these two please speak up. See team below.
Bruiser Brody and Stan The Lariat Hansen - These two savages kicked ass like the team I mentioned above and was way more viscious with it also.^^^^
The Steiners Brothers - Rick and Scott made being in the ring with them feel like a car wreck.
The Megapowers - Hulk Hogan and Macho Man Randy Savage
British Bulldogs - Hard hitting team
Midnight Express - There were three different versions: The original was Dennis Condrey and Randy Rose, then Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey and finally Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane. Jim Cornette being the manager for the Condrey/Eaton and Eaton/Lane was an added bonus. Paul E. managed the originals and attack Eaton and Lane. Originally started as a three man stable of Randy Rose, Dennis Condrey, and Norvell Austin(who teamed with Koko B. Ware later to become the PYT's, I lol'ed everytime those two jheri curl activist came in the ring with the MJ Beat It Jackets.)
The Hart Foundation - Brett Hart and Jim Neidhardt were a dominant team.
Dr. Death Steve Williams and Ted Dibiase - had Midsouth tag scene on lock.
Harlem Heat - Great black tag team. Booker T and Stevie Ray got better and better as time went on.
Doom - Great black tag team. Ron Simmons and Butch Reed had victories over the Steiners, Horsemen, and Road Warriors
Demolition - Axe and Smash did just that to opponents in the ring.
The Wild Somoans(Afa and Sika) - Somoans are tough SOBS
The Funk brothers - Dory and Terry were great.
The Briscoe brothers - Jack and Jerry were great.
The Andersons (Ole and Gene Minnesotta Wrecking Crew later Ole and Arn) - New how to isolate and wear down opponents with precision
Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard - great WWF run as the Brainbusters. Brought horseman swag to the at most times cartoonish WWF.
The Von Erich brothers - any combo of mainly David, Kevin, or Kerry. Not so much Mike.
The Freebirds - mainly Terry Gordy and Micheal Hayes. Buddy Roberts was enhancement. Then later with Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin(long time Freebird ally)
The Garvin brothers - Ronny Garvin was bad ass and Jimmy Garvin had a decent run as a tag team.
The Valiant brothers - Johnny and Jimmy were a great heel team in the old WWWF(now WWE) territory.
Nick Bockwinkle and Ray The Crippler Stevens - got great heat in the old AWA days.
Hollywood Blondes - Stunning Steve Austin and Flyin' Brian Pillman. Had great chemistry, Pillman unfortunately was injury prone otherwise would have had a better run.
The Sheepherders - before Vince made them the "stooge like Bushwackers" Luke and Butch had a rep for bloodying their foes.
The Koloffs - Challenged the Road Warriors and the Rock and Roll Express. Ivan was the tough as nails vet and Nikita was a beast.
The Fabulous Ones - Stane Lane and Steve Keirn had the Chippendale gimmick but was a good combo in the ring.
The Rockers - Shawn Michaels and Marty Janetty were great.
Rock and Roll Express - Ricky and Robert were always outsized but still overcame odds.
Powers of Pain - Warlord and Barbarian. Put Road Warrior Animal in the hospital.
The Natural Disasters - Earthquake and Typhoon were a super heavyweight heel team that moved suprisingly well in the ring.
Mr. Fuji and Mr. Saito - These two Japanese legends used to terrorize the WWWF.
Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba - Two more Japanese legends that defeated many American teams on their Japan tour.
Ken Patera and Bobby Duncum - Was great under the management of Shiek Adnan El-Kassie. They were known as the Black and Blue Express.
The Blackjacks - Mulligan and Langza were two big tough texans.
Dick The Bruiser and The Crusher - Heels cringed back in the 70's knowing they were going to be facing these two brawl loving babyfaces. The most violent baby face team ever.
Barry Windham and Mike Rotunda - Complimented each other nicely.
Jerry Lawler and Austin Idol - The greatest tag team in Tennesse history.
Power and Glory - Hercules Hernandez and Paul Roma were vastly underated.
Samoan Swat Team/Headshrinkers - went toe to toe with the mighty Road Warriors and Steiners.
The Dudleys - Get the tables.
The Gangstas - New Jack and Mustapha Saed brought ghetto hood violence to the ring.
The Eliminators - Perry Saturn and John Kronos was a force in the old ECW
Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas - Vastly underused and booked by the WWE writers.
The Colossal Connection - Andre The Giant and Haku(A young Meng)
Rock N Sock Connection - The Rock and Foley. Odd couple but funny promos.
The Brothers of Destruction - Undertaker and Kane. Big, strong, agile, and mean.
New Age Outlaws - Billy Gun and Jesse James were underated
The Outsiders - Kevin Nash and Scott Hall terrorized WCW.
Sting and Lex Lugar - Two of WCW's favorite faces.
The Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkoff - Russia and Iran tagging in the 80's. Got great heat as the anti American team.
Mark Callous (Undertaker) and Danny Spivey tall, agile, and mean as hell.
Sid Viscious and Danny Spivey - mean ass tall team
Bruiser Brody and Danny Spivey - two psycho ass dudes
Bruiser Brody and Nord The Barbarian - Brody takes Nord under his wing but Nord ultimately fails. That Berzerker gimmick was weak as hell.
Kevin Sullivan and Mad Dog Buzz Sawyer - two sick puppies
Kevin Sullivan and Maniac Mark Lewin - had the devil worshipping shit going on in Florida territory long before Undertaker and Kane was a thought in Vince's head.
The Fantastics - Bobby Fulton and Tim Horner overly huge with young female fans.
The High Flyers - Jim Brunzell and Greg Gange.
Dusty Rhodes and Dick Murdoch - Dusty was a heel but him and Murdoch were two dirty ass texans.
Ray Stevens and Pat Patterson - AKA the Blonde Bombers. Good team in the 60's.
Dick Murdoch and Adrian Adonis - defeated Rocky Johnson and Tony Atlas. I was salty as hell.
Tony Atlas and Rocky Johnson - they only get mentioned because they were the first black team to win a world tag title. Otherwise they could not stand each other in the dressing room. Rocky was boogie and Tony was bamma. Did not mix. That is why they had to drop the straps to Murdoch and Adonis.
Legion of Doom/Road Warriors intense personalities, kick ass, great intense promos
Miracle Violence Connection(Dr. Death Steve Williams & Terry Bam Bam Gordy) - Once bitter rivals now if there was a badder tag team then these two please speak up. See team below.
Bruiser Brody and Stan The Lariat Hansen - These two savages kicked ass like the team I mentioned above and was way more viscious with it also.^^^^
The Steiners Brothers - Rick and Scott made being in the ring with them feel like a car wreck.
The Megapowers - Hulk Hogan and Macho Man Randy Savage
British Bulldogs - Hard hitting team
Midnight Express - There were three different versions: The original was Dennis Condrey and Randy Rose, then Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey and finally Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane. Jim Cornette being the manager for the Condrey/Eaton and Eaton/Lane was an added bonus. Paul E. managed the originals and attack Eaton and Lane. Originally started as a three man stable of Randy Rose, Dennis Condrey, and Norvell Austin(who teamed with Koko B. Ware later to become the PYT's, I lol'ed everytime those two jheri curl activist came in the ring with the MJ Beat It Jackets.)
The Hart Foundation - Brett Hart and Jim Neidhardt were a dominant team.
Dr. Death Steve Williams and Ted Dibiase - had Midsouth tag scene on lock.
Harlem Heat - Great black tag team. Booker T and Stevie Ray got better and better as time went on.
Doom - Great black tag team. Ron Simmons and Butch Reed had victories over the Steiners, Horsemen, and Road Warriors
Demolition - Axe and Smash did just that to opponents in the ring.
The Wild Somoans(Afa and Sika) - Somoans are tough SOBS
The Funk brothers - Dory and Terry were great.
The Briscoe brothers - Jack and Jerry were great.
The Andersons (Ole and Gene Minnesotta Wrecking Crew later Ole and Arn) - New how to isolate and wear down opponents with precision
Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard - great WWF run as the Brainbusters. Brought horseman swag to the at most times cartoonish WWF.
The Von Erich brothers - any combo of mainly David, Kevin, or Kerry. Not so much Mike.
The Freebirds - mainly Terry Gordy and Micheal Hayes. Buddy Roberts was enhancement. Then later with Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin(long time Freebird ally)
The Garvin brothers - Ronny Garvin was bad ass and Jimmy Garvin had a decent run as a tag team.
The Valiant brothers - Johnny and Jimmy were a great heel team in the old WWWF(now WWE) territory.
Nick Bockwinkle and Ray The Crippler Stevens - got great heat in the old AWA days.
Hollywood Blondes - Stunning Steve Austin and Flyin' Brian Pillman. Had great chemistry, Pillman unfortunately was injury prone otherwise would have had a better run.
The Sheepherders - before Vince made them the "stooge like Bushwackers" Luke and Butch had a rep for bloodying their foes.
The Koloffs - Challenged the Road Warriors and the Rock and Roll Express. Ivan was the tough as nails vet and Nikita was a beast.
The Fabulous Ones - Stane Lane and Steve Keirn had the Chippendale gimmick but was a good combo in the ring.
The Rockers - Shawn Michaels and Marty Janetty were great.
Rock and Roll Express - Ricky and Robert were always outsized but still overcame odds.
Powers of Pain - Warlord and Barbarian. Put Road Warrior Animal in the hospital.
The Natural Disasters - Earthquake and Typhoon were a super heavyweight heel team that moved suprisingly well in the ring.
Mr. Fuji and Mr. Saito - These two Japanese legends used to terrorize the WWWF.
Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba - Two more Japanese legends that defeated many American teams on their Japan tour.
Ken Patera and Bobby Duncum - Was great under the management of Shiek Adnan El-Kassie. They were known as the Black and Blue Express.
The Blackjacks - Mulligan and Langza were two big tough texans.
Dick The Bruiser and The Crusher - Heels cringed back in the 70's knowing they were going to be facing these two brawl loving babyfaces. The most violent baby face team ever.
Barry Windham and Mike Rotunda - Complimented each other nicely.
Jerry Lawler and Austin Idol - The greatest tag team in Tennesse history.
Power and Glory - Hercules Hernandez and Paul Roma were vastly underated.
Samoan Swat Team/Headshrinkers - went toe to toe with the mighty Road Warriors and Steiners.
The Dudleys - Get the tables.
The Gangstas - New Jack and Mustapha Saed brought ghetto hood violence to the ring.
The Eliminators - Perry Saturn and John Kronos was a force in the old ECW
Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas - Vastly underused and booked by the WWE writers.
The Colossal Connection - Andre The Giant and Haku(A young Meng)
Rock N Sock Connection - The Rock and Foley. Odd couple but funny promos.
The Brothers of Destruction - Undertaker and Kane. Big, strong, agile, and mean.
New Age Outlaws - Billy Gun and Jesse James were underated
The Outsiders - Kevin Nash and Scott Hall terrorized WCW.
Sting and Lex Lugar - Two of WCW's favorite faces.
The Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkoff - Russia and Iran tagging in the 80's. Got great heat as the anti American team.
Mark Callous (Undertaker) and Danny Spivey tall, agile, and mean as hell.
Sid Viscious and Danny Spivey - mean ass tall team
Bruiser Brody and Danny Spivey - two psycho ass dudes
Bruiser Brody and Nord The Barbarian - Brody takes Nord under his wing but Nord ultimately fails. That Berzerker gimmick was weak as hell.
Kevin Sullivan and Mad Dog Buzz Sawyer - two sick puppies
Kevin Sullivan and Maniac Mark Lewin - had the devil worshipping shit going on in Florida territory long before Undertaker and Kane was a thought in Vince's head.
The Fantastics - Bobby Fulton and Tim Horner overly huge with young female fans.
The High Flyers - Jim Brunzell and Greg Gange.
Dusty Rhodes and Dick Murdoch - Dusty was a heel but him and Murdoch were two dirty ass texans.
Ray Stevens and Pat Patterson - AKA the Blonde Bombers. Good team in the 60's.
Dick Murdoch and Adrian Adonis - defeated Rocky Johnson and Tony Atlas. I was salty as hell.
Tony Atlas and Rocky Johnson - they only get mentioned because they were the first black team to win a world tag title. Otherwise they could not stand each other in the dressing room. Rocky was boogie and Tony was bamma. Did not mix. That is why they had to drop the straps to Murdoch and Adonis.
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Whoa, slow down playa. I'm not 31 yet...
It might be time to check out of one quality indies wrestling federations out. For all the, "Meh, this is cool, but so-and-so would never make it in the WWE because of their look," that seems to pop up from naysayers, I reply with, "Who cares when the WWE isn't known for pumping quality these days. Ditto to TNA."
For the most part, I READ about the WWE, but only tune in after I read when there was a match I was interested in (ditto to TNA). Other than that...it's strictly indies (and Japanese federations) for me.
You know if Vince knew this was online he would have that shit pulled
Whoa, slow down playa. I'm not 31 yet...
I have to admit something about today's product just doesn't do it as much for me either. It sucks with just the wwf around yeah I said wwf lol. I think even Pat Patterson made remarks that it's become too hollywood now. It's missing that grit it use to have because Vince is hellbent on trying to make it entertainment and not sports entertainment.
Which bring me back to the NWO juggernaut in 1996 you brought up where you say Bret didn't really help. If the NWO didn't crush them initially do you think that The Rock or Steve Austin would have been able to perform the way they did without getting the Diesel treatment? Sometimes things happen for a reason because Vince was so scared of ruining his only true draw he didn't take the chance on making him "corporate" and to safety net the scenario it was turned into a storyline.
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