What If All Blacks Became 'independents'

It would mean the end of the Democratic Party. Blacks are one of the cornerstones of the Democratic Party but mofos regularly take black issues for granted :(


_______________________
Progress for the BLACK COMMUNITY: http://www.wewritereviews.com/blog/

:yes::yes::yes:

Very very true. Which is why I made it officially to register as an Independent years ago. These mofo's in the democrat party don't have to DO SHIT to get us to vote for them. They toss out a few choice words to make us pissed off and into the booth we go. Bill Clinton and the rest gotta be laughing their collective asses off at how easy it is.

For the Jews, they have to send money to Israel and put policy in place that strengthens their family/business structure for years to come. And that shit is party-proof! i.e. Doesn't matter what party takes power, their shit is secure, forever.

But for us is seems a joke, a saxophone and promises is all it takes.

Fuck em. Independent means they gotta come with something more than bafoon with a sax. More should drop their asses until they come correct.

-VG
 
Wow, where did you get your Political Law Degree From??????????:confused:

You right I'm not the most Gifted Individual when it comes to ALL FORMS of Politics especially in National and World Politics but I am getting my start on my local City/County/State Politics.......


No degree in the sense of a formal education. Just a spectator to the Civil Rights Movement,Witness and participant to the rise and fall of the Black Panthers as a young teen-ager then a participant in local(Baltimore),state and federal grass roots type stuff after leaving the Military.

Learned a lot. Done a lot. Won some. Lost some.

I'm not telling you to go away. By all means stay and put up the good fight for what you believe in. But you gotta have something to back up what you say.
 
Wrong, I could solve the immigration problem with one stroke. Anyone employing an illegal worker, whether it is a big corporate factory, a small business or as a day worker being picked up by someone on America’s corners or parking lots is fined $1000/day they worked. At this point the reason for them to come to this country would end because employers would weight the economic penalty of hiring someone for less than minimum wage versus hiring an American would solve itself.

I endorse this response.

QueEx
 
The debt began to skyrocket under Reagan and blew up under GW.

Don't you Dare think that anyone with Common Sense would fall for that Blame the National Politicians for what the Local State Politicians have done to their own State......

If you really believe that crock than what is the Point of having City/County/State Political Officials if National Politicians were able to Call the Shots of what goes on in Local City/County/State Issues.........

Wrong, I could solve the immigration problem with one stroke.

Keep smoking that Green Grass with all that Backpedaling and Contradicting BS you talking............:lol:

Anyone employing an illegal worker, whether it is a big corporate factory, a small business or as a day worker being picked up by someone on America’s corners or parking lots is fined $1000/day they worked. At this point the reason for them to come to this country would end because employers would weight the economic penalty of hiring someone for less than minimum wage versus hiring an American would solve itself. At this point all of the other issues would surface, such as the government subsidizing companies to move over seas would be debated and the true America haters would be exposed.

The only part of the DC area that are trying to do what you typed is the Republican Controlled Prince William County and Loudon County Virginia.

Maryland continues to give the Red Carpet Treatment to the Illegal Mexican-Central American Immigrants and Maryland is the most Highly Densed Democratic State in the South.........

Oh yeah in Some States Democrats Allow Illegal Mexican-Central Americans to vote in Local their local City/Town Elections............
 
This thread is a moot point. most other black people I know would go down with the ship [democrats], just like their white counterparts [republicans]. EVEN on this board.

both are one party [the corporatist party]


When the police state comes we all will be in it, along with whitey. maybe we will deserve it too.

I do one thing, if Obama Loses the Primary(thats a HUGE IF):angry: then I ain't voting for any Person for President, I'll just worry about the Next Local City/County/State Elections..........
 
:yes::yes::yes:

Very very true. Which is why I made it officially to register as an Independent years ago. These mofo's in the democrat party don't have to DO SHIT to get us to vote for them. They toss out a few choice words to make us pissed off and into the booth we go. Bill Clinton and the rest gotta be laughing their collective asses off at how easy it is.

For the Jews, they have to send money to Israel and put policy in place that strengthens their family/business structure for years to come. And that shit is party-proof! i.e. Doesn't matter what party takes power, their shit is secure, forever.

But for us is seems a joke, a saxophone and promises is all it takes.

Fuck em. Independent means they gotta come with something more than bafoon with a sax. More should drop their asses until they come correct.

-VG

And keep in mind that the Democrats(Mostly White) are starting to use the Latinos(Mexicans-Central Americans) as their new Sheep............:smh:
 
No degree in the sense of a formal education. Just a spectator to the Civil Rights Movement,Witness and participant to the rise and fall of the Black Panthers as a young teen-ager then a participant in local(Baltimore),state and federal grass roots type stuff after leaving the Military.

Learned a lot. Done a lot. Won some. Lost some.

I'm not telling you to go away. By all means stay and put up the good fight for what you believe in. But you gotta have something to back up what you say.

I definitely respect anyone who were part of the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Panther Movement it has open the doors for alot of us young folx today.........

And I will say that my few years of observing politics(mainly local and somewhat National) I can say that we as Black People need to stop wasting our support towards White Democrats that Continue to take the Black Votes and Issues as a Joke.........

If your really from Baltimore, Maryland you would know that the state of Maryland is Historically the most Highly Dense Democratic State in the South(Below the Mason/Dixon) but what does it show for Black Progression Socially/Economically and Keep in Mind that the Next State to the South(Virginia) is More Conservative but yet they have more Black Owned High Tech Business(Government Connected) and Elected a Black Democrat for State Governor back in 1989 but yet Maryland has NEVER Accomplish That..............:smh:
 
And keep in mind that the Democrats(Mostly White) are starting to use the Latinos(Mexicans-Central Americans) as their new Sheep............:smh:
I think you're paying way too much attention to Democrats and Republicans. Just my opinion but I think the focus should be on individual politicians and what they do/don't stand for.

QueEx
 
I bumped this thread yesterday primarily for one reason: the topic of this thread is interesting indeed as it speaks to the possibility or quest for a new unity among us as we find our own manifest political destiny. But that idea of unity and manifest political destiny is even more interesting (or, perhaps, ridiculous) when we look at the divisions of the Black vote thus far caused by Obama vs. Hillary.

Now, you might say, Hell, they're both democrats. Maybe. But I hear many of those same voices saying, they're really republicans; or corporatist. Whatever. Assuming that they are (whichever one chooses to make them), why do we have such a difficult time selecting between the two, especially when the difference is, well, Black and White ???

QueEx
 
I think you're paying way too much attention to Democrats and Republicans. Just my opinion but I think the focus should be on individual politicians and what they do/don't stand for.

QueEx

True because both parties have Rotten Politicians(Past and Present) that gives their party a Bad Name....

Right now the main issue that I believe is effecting/concerning Our Communities on the National Issue is the High Foreclosure Rate and those Greedy Mortgage Banks and I Strongly Hope and Believe that Mr. Obama is the Perfect Candidate to resolve This Crises that alot of us(especially since the Blacks and Latinos are effected the Most) is Going Through or Know someone that is...........................
 
I bumped this thread yesterday primarily for one reason: the topic of this thread is interesting indeed as it speaks to the possibility or quest for a new unity among us as we find our own manifest political destiny. But that idea of unity and manifest political destiny is even more interesting (or, perhaps, ridiculous) when we look at the divisions of the Black vote thus far caused by Obama vs. Hillary.

Now, you might say, Hell, they're both democrats. Maybe. But I hear many of those same voices saying, they're really republicans; or corporatist. Whatever. Assuming that they are (whichever one chooses to make them), why do we have such a difficult time selecting between the two, especially when the difference is, well, Black and White ???

QueEx

division does not always equate as an absolute negative. Democracy is made with divisions who has the ability use rational thought when it concerns issues. The problem with this thread *and majority of African Americans I might add* is the fact that people yell "we need to stick together", yet in all reality they are saying "you need to believe in what I believe in". I rather have civil disagreements than mindless robots.

Back to my post, I notice that ThoughtONE took a little bit of my point to make some kind of bs political statement. The point of my post isn't to say "you need to keep you legs close...or keep the dick in your pants". Its to say what majority of African Americans *young african americans i might add* are really following. Hip hop is the true leadership in the black community.
 
I bumped this thread yesterday primarily for one reason: the topic of this thread is interesting indeed as it speaks to the possibility or quest for a new unity among us as we find our own manifest political destiny. But that idea of unity and manifest political destiny is even more interesting (or, perhaps, ridiculous) when we look at the divisions of the Black vote thus far caused by Obama vs. Hillary.

Now, you might say, Hell, they're both democrats. Maybe. But I hear many of those same voices saying, they're really republicans; or corporatist. Whatever. Assuming that they are (whichever one chooses to make them), why do we have such a difficult time selecting between the two, especially when the difference is, well, Black and White ???

QueEx


I think that far too many don't understand what unity means. I'm serious, just look at the discussions on the board. Nearly every one descends into heated arguments and personal attacks. How can a group of people suppose to unify when they can't get past their personal dislike of the person they're suppose to unite with?

They can't. Something else is going to have to happen to shock them into putting down their individual animosities and unite in a common cause.


On Obama and Hillary:

Too many Obama supporters appear to be unfamiliar with the process their candidate is in. How the caucus system works and it's place within the primary process. Just like the general election is all about the Electoral College. The primaries are all about Delegates and how many a candidate can get going into the convention. They also seem to be thin skinned when others attack him politically and over react to those attacks.

Hillary is Hillary. She tried to create an air of inevitability but Obama and Edwards are giving her a run in the early States. Whether that will hold out and have an impact through Super Tuesday remains to seen.

Don't know why it seems the choice between the 2 appears to be difficult. Both are establishment candidates who aren't that far apart on the issues. Just compare their voting record since the both of them have been in the Senate. It's obvious to any objective viewer that they are 2 sides of the same coin with the only difference being the picture and the writing. I'm perplexed as to why many Obama supporters pretty much say they won't vote for Hillary if she get the nod. They'll get pretty much the same as what Obama would do just the picture and the words would be different. Are they Democrats or what!

I'd like to hear the explanation myself
 
Most voters should focus on power not party. If the parties are owned by business like many people believe, what can any politican do about it other than starting a popular revolt against business. It's been done before, Teddy Roosevelt went against big business and enacted anti-trust laws, Eisenhower was against the military industrial complex, but none of the present candidates are talking about anything like that with the possible exception of John Edwards. Black voters should not let this turn into another us vs them popularity contest, we lose that fight everytime, we should focus on which candidate is more in tune with our needs regardless of party. Don't make this election about Black unity make it about Black common sense.
 
i think black, as well as every other "group" are more independent that it seems.

the fact that the democrats get the majority of black votes is a result from the fact that we basically have a 2 party system...and the democratic party is slightly(very slightly) better for the average minority, at least that how they present themselves.

also, i dont think that minority groups really vote as a bloc when it comes to individual issues. even women, when you look at the time when women first got the chance to vote, the power structure was scared because they thought women would vote in a bloc and revolutionize politics. but they didnt, they actually split their vote.
 
i think black, as well as every other "group" are more independent that it seems.
Really; thats not exactly what the "actual" voting record shows.

the fact that the democrats get the majority of black votes is a result from the fact that we basically have a 2 party system
Then that should mean that both parties should, on a consistent basis, receive virtually an equal proportion of our vote. They don't, do they?

...and the democratic party is slightly(very slightly) better for the average minority, at least that how they present themselves.
Better? Isn't that, at least in part, what this thread is about??? That is, theres no question that we've given the democrats 10 to 1 more votes than we have republican -- and do we have 10 to 1 to show for it ??? If not, shouldn't we be considering something different, i.e., independence?

i dont think that minority groups really vote as a bloc when it comes to individual issues. even women, when you look at the time when women first got the chance to vote, the power structure was scared because they thought women would vote in a bloc and revolutionize politics. but they didnt, they actually split their vote.
you don't think we, Black people, vote as a democratic bloc -- in most elections ??? What planet are you on ???

QueEx
 
I think that far too many don't understand what unity means. I'm serious, just look at the discussions on the board. Nearly every one descends into heated arguments and personal attacks. How can a group of people suppose to unify when they can't get past their personal dislike of the person they're suppose to unite with?
Ummm . . . understand what diversity really means ???
 
I think that far too many don't understand what unity means. I'm serious, just look at the discussions on the board. Nearly every one descends into heated arguments and personal attacks. How can a group of people suppose to unify when they can't get past their personal dislike of the person they're suppose to unite with?

They can't. Something else is going to have to happen to shock them into putting down their individual animosities and unite in a common cause.


On Obama and Hillary:

Too many Obama supporters appear to be unfamiliar with the process their candidate is in. How the caucus system works and it's place within the primary process. Just like the general election is all about the Electoral College. The primaries are all about Delegates and how many a candidate can get going into the convention. They also seem to be thin skinned when others attack him politically and over react to those attacks.

Hillary is Hillary. She tried to create an air of inevitability but Obama and Edwards are giving her a run in the early States. Whether that will hold out and have an impact through Super Tuesday remains to seen.

Don't know why it seems the choice between the 2 appears to be difficult. Both are establishment candidates who aren't that far apart on the issues. Just compare their voting record since the both of them have been in the Senate. It's obvious to any objective viewer that they are 2 sides of the same coin with the only difference being the picture and the writing. I'm perplexed as to why many Obama supporters pretty much say they won't vote for Hillary if she get the nod. They'll get pretty much the same as what Obama would do just the picture and the words would be different. Are they Democrats or what!

I'd like to hear the explanation myself

Simple:

Do you support Illegal Immigration and Being Over Taxed on Everything????????????????
 
Ummm . . . understand what diversity really means ???


Sure I do. Seems like some folk are trying to fit the square peg of diversity into the round hole of unity. Some people just aren't gonna like each other. So what's the unifying issue(s) to make people discard their differences and unify?
 
Really; thats not exactly what the "actual" voting record shows.


Then that should mean that both parties should, on a consistent basis, receive virtually an equal proportion of our vote. They don't, do they?


Better? Isn't that, at least in part, what this thread is about??? That is, theres no question that we've given the democrats 10 to 1 more votes than we have republican -- and do we have 10 to 1 to show for it ??? If not, shouldn't we be considering something different, i.e., independence?


you don't think we, Black people, vote as a democratic bloc -- in most elections ??? What planet are you on ???

QueEx

my bad, im talking about voting as a bloc on individual issues. such as immigration and abortion. but yeah, black voters do vote as a bloc for the democrats.

but i still stand by my comment that there is basically not much choice, if black voters left the democratic party... where would they go?

i dunno, i just think that the votes don't necessarily reflect how independent black voters are, because blacks are conservative on a lot of issues but when it comes down to it we hand our vote to the democrats.

also black independece is noticed when, as you pointed out, there is division within the democrats (ie hillary vs obama).



my bad on the tangent, its early morning,hahah.
 
bump_signs.jpg
 
The debt began to skyrocket under Reagan and blew up under GW.

Wrong, I could solve the immigration problem with one stroke. Anyone employing an illegal worker, whether it is a big corporate factory, a small business or as a day worker being picked up by someone on America’s corners or parking lots is fined $1000/day they worked. At this point the reason for them to come to this country would end because employers would weight the economic penalty of hiring someone for less than minimum wage versus hiring an American would solve itself. At this point all of the other issues would surface, such as the government subsidizing companies to move over seas would be debated and the true America haters would be exposed.

There have been NUMEROUS studies of the effects of undocumented workers to the economy of the U.S. and EVERY one suggests that they make contributions at least equal and often beyond their numbers in the population. I don't understand the parroting of this type of brainless idiotic crackkka propaganda. As if removing these hard working people would in anyway resolve the issues facing capitalism. :smh: I also love the contradiction of you muh fuckas who support capitalism and the free movement of business across international lines in search of cheap labor but do not support labor moving in the same fashion in search of higher wages. :lol: Your market god is as fickle and contradictory as Jehovah. :yes:

After the way the democrat party treated Fanny Lou Hammer it is any wonder that any of us would still associate with them. It is only our ignorance of history and how politrickkks is played in this country. But beyond this if you aren't a millionaire no matter what your history is in the U.S. you have no logical or intelligent business in the democrat or republican party. poli-sci 101: a political party represent the interests of a particular class in a society...do the democrats and republicans represent different classes or the interests of the same class?
If you aren't part of the capitalist class or one of their lackey's then you have no business fuckin wit either of these parties.
 
Independent right here! We need to hold our representatives accountable for the laws they pass, and, make them enforce existing laws (ie. immigration). Blacks are takin a major hit because of this in the form of decreasing wages
 
WHAT IF ALL BLACKS BECAME 'INDEPENDENTS' BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION? ...I ask this because I have been trying to figure out why we are so disrespected/disregarded when election time rolls around. Republicans won't address 'Black' issues, and the Democrats seem to think that it is a given that they have our votes wrapped up. It appears to me that we would have so power that we could decide an election if we ALL we Independents, and forced the candidates to address our issues/concerns. I would really like to hear from some brothers/sisters much smarter than myself. It seems to me that every 'white' group that you can name is 'courted' for votes, but blacks are left out and disregarded. If 'WE' were all Independents, it seems that we could do better for our people. Thanks much....PEACE!!!!

independents don't actually vote for independent candidates they simply aren't registered to any particular party.

I really don't see what benefit would be achieved since you are not mandated to vote for your registered party.

if you are registered republican you can vote for anybody you like be they democrat, tea party, green party, democrat or some write in.

The problem is not how black people are regsitered. That is not why their is disrespect or a lack of power.

The problem is that black people have no clearly defined ideas to address. Black people do not use their monetary position as a group to form economic power and we all know money is power. Black people also disrespect themselves so to think you will be respected by others is silly.

When even during the historic election of 2008 you have 10% of eligible black voters that did not vote, that is black people lessening their own voice. It is already a problem that only 63% of the black population can vote and are registered but then just 53% actually exercise that right that many died to get.


So black people have to get together as a group before they can think they will be able to make a dent.

One reason there was a togetherness during the civil rights struggle was that there was a defined agenda of things we wanted be you a doctor or a sharecropper,there was a commonality of goals.

That is lacking now, there is no commonality and to much in-fighting amongst blacks in general.

The struggle has to change focus from race to class, and we belong to both groups.But classism is what can be fought immediately. And that isn't defined by party registration
 
Damn, this thread is damned near 4 years old.

It would make a hell of a statement, even if it was a one time thing. Unfortunately politics in America is a "My guy wins"/lesser of the two evils mentality. Having a third major party would make things very, very interesting.

In 2000 I voted "Green", I liked what they stood for and a lot of things they were talking about were going to happen are happening now. I still get sideeye when I tell people I voted Green. If a majority of black people voted for a third party, the media would definitely take notice.
 
Damn, this thread is damned near 4 years old.

It would make a hell of a statement, even if it was a one time thing. Unfortunately politics in America is a "My guy wins"/lesser of the two evils mentality. Having a third major party would make things very, very interesting.

In 2000 I voted "Green", I liked what they stood for and a lot of things they were talking about were going to happen are happening now. I still get sideeye when I tell people I voted Green. If a majority of black people voted for a third party, the media would definitely take notice.

I think that is true as a statement but we would still end up fucked over .

The 97% black vote that Obama got in 2008 equaled around 15 million give or take.

That isn't enough to win anything so that would mean more Tea Party.

Thats why I said it can't be race based it has to be class based

If all the people making 100K or less voted for a third party you could make some changes in who gets in office.
 
both are one party [the corporatist party]


Oh yea? Expalin this?

source: Huffington Post


NLRB Boeing Case: Bill To Weaken Labor Board Passed By House Republicans


WASHINGTON -- In their latest effort to aid the Boeing Company, House Republicans took the extraordinary step on Thursday of voting to strip the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) of much of its power.
The bill, entitled the Protecting Jobs from Go
vernment Interference Act, would bar the federal labor board from ordering a company to close or relocate a workplace, even if that company has violated labor law. Thursday's House vote fell along party lines, with 238 Republicans for the bill and 186 Democrats against it.

The bill is designed expressly to thwart a controversial complaint brought by the NLRB against Boeing that has put the future of a South Carolina Boeing plant into limbo.

Although Republicans claim the law would save South Carolina jobs, Democrats and union leaders say it would gut the 77-year-old independent agency of its authority, while also letting Boeing off the hook for alleged misdeeds.

The NLRB's acting general counsel filed the complaint in April, alleging that the aerospace giant violated labor law when it established a production line for its 787 Dreamliner in South Carolina. The move was retaliation against Boeing's unionized workers in Washington state for having gone on strike in the past, the complaint alleged. If Boeing and the board don't settle the case, the company could feasibly be forced to close its South Carolina facility and bring the work to Washington.

The complaint has infuriated Republicans, particularly those from South Carolina. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) has claimed that the labor board, which is tasked with enforcing the National Labor Relations Act, has a pro-union "agenda," while House Republicans have assailed the board as an anti-business, job-killing agent of the Obama administration.

Republicans have also said that the board is meddling in corporate decision-making by "dictating" where a company can set up shop, and that the board's complaint will ultimately help to send jobs overseas

But House Democrats and labor leaders have said the Republican bill will end up doing just that, since it will remove the labor board's only remedy against a company that has illegally relocated jobs. Many have deemed it "an outsourcer's bill of rights."

"Under this bill, if a company wants to bust a union by outsourcing its work to China, this bill permits it," Rep. George Miller (D-Calif.) said on the House floor. "Working people across this country should pay careful attention to this bill. It takes away every working American’s rights."

Meanwhile, Rep. John Kline (R-Minn.), one of the most vocal critics of the NLRB, said the board was exercising a "radical" authority in its Boeing complaint that would have "a chilling effect on our economy."

"It's time we forced the NLRB to change course," he said on the floor.
Many conservatives have vowed to either defund the board or cripple it. Although the House bill would go a long way in accomplishing the latter, it is highly unlikely to pass through a Democrat-controlled Senate.

Nonetheless, business groups have rallied around Republicans on the issue. The labor board has issued a number of decisions and rules in recent months that have rankled the business community, including a rule made public last month that will require employers to post a notice in the workplace informing workers of their rights under labor law.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce designated Thursday's a "key vote," calling it an "important step to reining in the NLRB."

"Businesses considering investing in new facilities in the United States will think twice and need to consider the risk that their decisions may be second guessed by the NLRB," the Chamber wrote in an alert to members. "[T]his legislation would help remove an element of uncertainty and encourage investment in new U.S. facilities."

The board's acting general counsel, Lafe Solomon, has defended the Boeing complaint, saying it was issued only after a careful consideration of the facts. He has also said that the White House had nothing to do with the complaint, despite Republican claims.

The Boeing case is now before a federal administrative law judge in Seattle.

"The decision had absolutely nothing to do with political considerations," Solomon told reporters in a statement this week. "Regrettably, some have chosen to insert politics into what should be a straightforward legal procedure. These continuing political attacks are baseless and unprecedented and take the focus away from where it belongs -- the ongoing trial in Seattle."

____________________________________________________________________

Which party is protecting workers and which party is protecting corporations?
 
Don't you Dare think that anyone with Common Sense would fall for that Blame the National Politicians for what the Local State Politicians have done to their own State......

GW passed a tax cut, an unpaid for war, Medicare Part D. Those are not Washington's blame?

If you really believe that crock than what is the Point of having City/County/State Political Officials if National Politicians were able to Call the Shots of what goes on in Local City/County/State Issues.........

I have no idea why you veered off in to this, however constitutionally the federal government is charged with immigration. A Washington issue.


Keep smoking that Green Grass with all that Backpedaling and Contradicting BS you talking............:lol:

Backpedaling? I'm very consistent and reasoned in my arguments.


The only part of the DC area that are trying to do what you typed is the Republican Controlled Prince William County and Loudon County Virginia.

Maryland continues to give the Red Carpet Treatment to the Illegal Mexican-Central American Immigrants and Maryland is the most Highly Densed Democratic State in the South.........

Oh yeah in Some States Democrats Allow Illegal Mexican-Central Americans to vote in Local their local City/Town Elections............

I bet if you polled those landscaping services in Prince William County and Loudon County Virginia, they majority of those trimming the lawns are illegal. We have that issue here in Georgia. The most vehemently anti illegal areas are republican and have the most illegal working under the radar. In fact the Georgia farmers are now complaining about the lack of field hands since the Republican Governor and legislator passed one of the most stringent anti illegal laws in the country. The dumb ass conservative Republicans complain that Americans don't want to work. Americans don't want to work for slave wages, which is what the republicans want us all to work for!
 
Independent right here! We need to hold our representatives accountable for the laws they pass, and, make them enforce existing laws (ie. immigration). Blacks are takin a major hit because of this in the form of decreasing wages


So you are against this?

GOP Votes To Strip Labor Board Of Much Of Its Power


If you are for enforcing the existing laws, you are going to call your congressman to voice your displeasure Mr. Independent?
 
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