WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Others

BrainChild09

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I know many of you are going to read it, the question really is how many of you will choose to ignore it.

Just read the article below people. Even with the 15% tax rate on capital gains, wealthier individuals still pay not only a higher total number of dollars in taxes BY FAR, but they also pay a higher percentage of their income. Again read the article & look at the effective tax rates (the amount of tax an individual or firm pays when all other government offsets or payments are applied, divided by the the total income) & you will see that those make more do indeed pay a higher percentage of their income. This article was in today's Washington Post Fact Checker.

Obama, taxes and the ‘Buffett Rule’
By Glenn Kessler

(Susan Walsh/AP)
“Any reform should follow another simple principle: Middle-class families shouldn’t pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires. That’s pretty straightforward. It’s hard to argue against that. Warren Buffett’s secretary shouldn’t pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett. There is no justification for it. It is wrong that in the United States of America, a teacher or a nurse or a construction worker who earns $50,000 should pay higher tax rates than somebody pulling in $50 million.”

--President Obama, September 19, 2011


We have to admit we had overlooked this part of President Obama’s Rose Garden speech until we read David Brooks’s column in The New York Times Tuesday accusing the president of being misleading on the issue of taxes. “He repeated the old half-truth about millionaires not paying as much in taxes as their secretaries,” Brooks wrote.

We’re not going to get into an argument between Brooks and Obama. We understood Obama’s comments to be specific to the situation that investor Warren Buffett outlined in his famous opinion article in The New York Times, in which he noted that he paid a lower tax rate than other people in his office. But, looking at Obama’s words again, we can see why Brooks thought Obama was saying that in general middle-class families were paying more in taxes than millionaires. (For the record, the White House says that was not Obama’s intent.)

Indeed, the plan Obama released on Monday simply states the “Buffett Rule” as this: “No household making over $1 million annually should pay a smaller share of its income in taxes than middle-class families pay.”

But the report never really explains what that means, and administration officials have refused to lay out any detailed proposal. Already, on average, most teachers, nurses, construction workers and the like already pay a lower rate than people making more than $1 million.

Still, there are so many numbers tossed around about taxes that it seems a good time to take a step back and look at the data. After all, Republicans frequently note that 50 percent of Americans pay no income taxes. So how is it that Democrats can complain that billionaires are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries? And does the so-called “Buffett Rule” make sense as tax policy?


The Facts
The numbers are so confusing because the data points are so different. Democrats speak of tax rate averages, and include payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare). Republicans tend to focus on just federal income taxes and marginal rates, which is the tax on each next dollar of earnings.

There is vast income disparity in the United States, which is why under the progressive tax system, the wealthy already pay most of the income taxes.

In 2001, in a previous life, The Fact Checker wrote the first article that disclosed how much the 400 richest Americans pay in federal income taxes. The number at the time was calculated as $8.7 billion — about as much in federal income taxes as paid by 40 million individuals and families at the bottom of the income scale.

That article caused quite a stir at the time, and now the Internal Revenue Service regularly releases data on the top 400 taxpayers. The most recent information, for 2008, shows that the 400 wealthiest Americans paid $19.5 billion in income taxes. That seems like a lot, but their average (effective) tax rate was 18.11 percent, down from as much as 29.93 percent in 1995.

Averages don’t tell the whole story. Of the 400 taxpayers, 238 taxpayers paid a marginal rate of 35 percent, the top income tax bracket. That figure — which Republicans focus on — means that more than one-third of each additional dollar earned went to the federal government. However, various deductions and the like helped bring down the average rate. In fact, only 59 taxpayers in this rarified group had an effective tax rate of between 30 and 35 percent.

The Congressional Budget Office also has released reports looking at taxation across income classes.

In 2006, the most recent data available, the top 1 percent of taxpayers (about 1 million households), with a minimum income of $332,000, paid nearly 40 percent of all federal income taxes collected. The average income tax rate was 19 percent for this group, compared to an average rate of 14 percent for the top one-fifth of households (minimum income of $71,000).

However, these numbers do not include payroll taxes. Social Security tax is no longer collected once a person makes more than $106,800, so the share of such taxes declines quickly for wealthier groups.

Thus, the top one percent pay an effective rate of 1.6 percent on social insurance taxes, compared to an effective rate of about 9 percent for most other income groups. (The data are further distorted by the fact that some wealthy individuals, such as lawyers, are paid through corporate structures, so their taxes are listed as corporate income taxes.)

When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates, it is clear the tax system is already pretty progressive. Everyone pays some tax, even those who pay no federal income taxes, and the wealthiest pay a larger percentage share of taxes. Here’s the effective tax rate for all of the groups, according to the CBO:

Lowest quintile (23.4 million taxpayers), zero to $18,900: 4.3 percent

Second lowest quintile (22.4 million), $18,900-$32,100: 10.2 percent

Middle quintile (22.9 million), $32,100-$47,400: 14.2 percent

Fourth quintile (23 million), $47,400-$71,200: 17.6 percent

Highest quintile (23.6 million), above $71,200: 25.8 percent

Top 10 percent (12 million), minimum income of $98,100: 27.5 percent

Top 5 percent (5.9 million), minimum income of $134,400: 29 percent

Top 1 percent (1.1 million), minimum income of $332,300: 31.2 percent


The Bottom Line
Maybe it’s not a good thing to make policy by anecdote.

It may well be the case that Buffett pays a lower average rate than his secretary. (Buffett, in his article, never says that; that’s the president’s characterization.) Buffett wrote that although he paid an average of 17.4 percent on his income, other people in his office had tax burdens that “ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.”

Those numbers actually seem rather high when you look at the tax data. As shown, on average, people at lower income brackets have much lower effective rates. (At least one tax expert, in fact, thinks Buffett confused marginal rates with average rates.) Buffett’s effective rate, in fact, is actually virtually identical to the rate paid by the top 400 taxpayers.

Perhaps people in Buffett’s office make enough money that they are hit with the alternative minimum tax, which really bites taxpayers making between $150,000 and $400,000. But that’s certainly not a category that includes, as Obama put it, “a teacher or a nurse or a construction worker who earns $50,000.”

More broadly, there are certainly some people making millions of dollars in the securities markets who are only paying 15 percent on their capital gains taxes, compared to the lowest tax bracket of 10 percent (which is applied on the first $8,000 of income). Add in payroll taxes, and there could be some instances where the effective tax rate of a middle-income person is less than the stock trader — but it does not appear that would be a common situation.

We don’t have enough data to make a Pinocchio ruling, but we were struck by the fact that at a White House briefing, administration officials resolutely refused to explain how the Buffett Rule would be put into effect. “Now, there are lots of different ways to achieve that principle,” Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said. “How you do it depends on what you do to the broader tax system as a whole. … We’re going to fight to make sure that's part of what Congress considers and ultimately delivers.”

In other words, it may be an effective political argument, even if it’s not really much of a problem.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z3
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

As I suspected. Many would view it, few will comment. The government's own numbers disprove a claim many of you want to believe & may even continue to make even after reading the facts. Like someone else said in another thread, don't become the tea party of the left.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

As I suspected. Many would view it, few will comment. The government's own numbers disprove a claim many of you want to believe & may even continue to make even after reading the facts. Like someone else said in another thread, don't become the tea party of the left.

As much as I would like to see it, this board doesn't have the high traffic of the so-called main board. Perhaps you're moving to judge a bit too quickly?
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

As much as I would like to see it, this board doesn't have the high traffic of the so-called main board. Perhaps you're moving to judge a bit too quickly?

True that this board doesn't have as high of traffic but it definitely has its faithful followers. & there's already been around 20 or so views so it's not like it hasn't been looked at. Typically threads that have solid evidence of something that refutes liberal biases, claims, or stances are routinely ignored on this board.

Honestly I'm probably going to take another long break from this board for real, hardly anyone here actually comes to discuss & exchange ideas & enlighten themselves. They're just here to defend their ideology & have absolutely no intention of reconsidering any of their views regardless of what's presented them.

There's no true debating of ideas. The script is this in every thread:

Side 1 - Conservatives are evil & stupid

vs

Side 2 - Liberals are evil & stupid

The End.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

I know many of you are going to read it, the question really is how many of you will choose to ignore it.

Just read the article below people. Even with the 15% tax rate on capital gains, wealthier individuals still pay not only a higher total number of dollars in taxes BY FAR, but they also pay a higher percentage of their income. Again read the article & look at the effective tax rates (the amount of tax an individual or firm pays when all other government offsets or payments are applied, divided by the the total income) & you will see that those make more do indeed pay a higher percentage of their income. This article was in today's Washington Post Fact Checker.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z3

Does this include the corporate jet tax loophole?
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Does this include the corporate jet tax loophole?

Read the article. It's about what individuals' effective tax rates are (including capital gains, all deductions, credits, etc.). It's not about corporate taxes.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Read the article. It's about what individuals' effective tax rates are (including capital gains, all deductions, credits, etc.). It's not about corporate taxes.


When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates,

What wealthy person pays the effective tax rate?
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

What wealthy person pays the effective tax rate?

This right here is why I'm done even conversing with people on this board. I told you to read the article. I'm out.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Raise the taxes on the wealthy!

I just wanna know WHY........And for what purpose?

Taking more money out of the economy to give to government is the worst thing you can do - regardless of who they take the money from.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

I just wanna know WHY........And for what purpose?

Taking more money out of the economy to give to government is the worst thing you can do - regardless of who they take the money from.

Go back over my 2 1/2 years of posts since you been here and read the answer I have been posting.

And while you're there, answer the questions you have not answered in those 2 1/2 years. Name a free market system that has worked and what are the market based solutions for the coal mine disasters and gulf oils spill.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

I just wanna know WHY........And for what purpose?

Taking more money out of the economy to give to government is the worst thing you can do - regardless of who they take the money from.

Another example of philosophy trumping reality.

When you slightly raise taxes on the upper earners and spend that money on things such as infrastructure or salaries for state/federal workers, you actually take money that's not in the economy and putting in the hands of people who will spend it. Ultimately, the money will end up back with those same upper earners who own the goods and services the middle/working classes purchase.
Warren Buffett and Mark Cuban probably understand that and if someone told it like that to the Koch Brothers, they would get on board.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Another example of philosophy trumping reality.

When you slightly raise taxes on the upper earners and spend that money on things such as infrastructure or salaries for state/federal workers, you actually take money that's not in the economy and putting in the hands of people who will spend it. Ultimately, the money will end up back with those same upper earners who own the goods and services the middle/working classes purchase.

The problem I have with the "infrastructure" argument is fuel tax on both the state & federal levels are supposed to be used for that purpose. We also have a Highway Trust Fund. How are these monies 'really' being allocated?

The issue with "putting money in the hands of people who will spend it" is completely opposite of how a healthy economy evolves. Savings and production is what the people of this country need. It requires discipline and sacrifice (2 things that have been lost over the past 15-20 years). What the "middle/working class" needs is more capital accumulation. From that accumulation of capital, we must invest wisely. Can I / We have the oppurtunity to become rich? Taxes prevent capital accumulation from occuring, among other things, and represents a lost oppurtunity on money that could've been used for something productive.

Being rich is not my highest priority in life but I'm not gonna stand in anyone elses way.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

What the "middle/working class" needs is more capital accumulation. From that accumulation of capital, we must invest wisely. Can I / We have the oppurtunity to become rich? Taxes prevent capital accumulation from occuring, among other things, and represents a lost oppurtunity on money that could've been used for something productive.

Being rich is not my highest priority in life but I'm not gonna stand in anyone elses way.

Me neither, on this we agree.

But the problem with this part of the post is no one is proposing raising taxes on the "middle/working class" who need that capital accumulation. In fact, the proposition is for more tax cuts for small businesses and maintaining the tax cuts for those people. What is proposed is a return to the actual tax rates for the upper earners who have already accumulated capital.
You want to cut spending, start ending the tax cuts since tax cuts are spending.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Sometimes the trouble with theory, is that it ignores practicality.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

The problem I have with the "infrastructure" argument is fuel tax on both the state & federal levels are supposed to be used for that purpose. We also have a Highway Trust Fund. How are these monies 'really' being allocated?

The issue with "putting money in the hands of people who will spend it" is completely opposite of how a healthy economy evolves. Savings and production is what the people of this country need. It requires discipline and sacrifice (2 things that have been lost over the past 15-20 years). What the "middle/working class" needs is more capital accumulation. From that accumulation of capital, we must invest wisely. Can I / We have the oppurtunity to become rich? Taxes prevent capital accumulation from occuring, among other things, and represents a lost oppurtunity on money that could've been used for something productive.

Being rich is not my highest priority in life but I'm not gonna stand in anyone elses way.


Can I / We have the oppurtunity to become rich? Taxes prevent capital accumulation from occuring, among other things, and represents a lost oppurtunity on money that could've been used for something productive.

Bullshit is at epidemic levels!


BTW,

0-P-P-O-R-T-U-N-I-T-Y

(among other errors)


Maybe this is the reason you aren't getting rich.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

But the problem with this part of the post is no one is proposing raising taxes on the "middle/working class" who need that capital accumulation. In fact, the proposition is for more tax cuts for small businesses and maintaining the tax cuts for those people. What is proposed is a return to the actual tax rates for the upper earners who have already accumulated capital.
You want to cut spending, start ending the tax cuts since tax cuts are spending.

Taking more money out of the economy to give to government is the worst thing you can do. Even if it's a dollar! You have to ask a simple question; Higher tax, for what? More Solyndra endeavors, TSA Agents, ineffective regulation, expanded militarism, stimulus programs etc? All the govt intervention is distorting the market

Those are the items that are "unrealistic".

You wanna get back at "rich" people, MAKE EM POOR! The corporatists shouldn't have been bailed out in 2008 (and the CBC correctly, voted against the bailouts until Obama & Bush got them to change their votes the second time around).

Sure, you can argue for higher taxes but it will ultimately hurt the individuals it was designed to help.

Hey Thought1, pass this link on to your billionaire buddies who don't think they are contributing their fair share But leave everybody else alone!
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">You wanna get back at "rich" people,</span> MAKE EM POOR!

But, who is trying to Get Back at rich people ? ? ? :confused:


 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

its obvious that some on this board want to penalize success.


boo-hoo2.jpg
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

its obvious that some on this board want to penalize success.

Lamar, of whom are you speaking ???

Unless you can make a strong showing (not just your subjective feelings) that people on this board are just out to punish rich people, in my opinion, you're laboring under a mistaken premise that obviously taints your conclusions. :(


 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

its obvious that some on this board want to penalize success.

Like who? I'm going to need you to point some folks out to make sure you're understanding me clearly (because I've only said it a dozen times): I don't want to penalize the "rich", I want more people to be successful or at least comfortable. Returning tax rates to their normal level for upper earners does not take money out of the economy. The government doesn't keep money, it spends it. Right now, it's spending it on wars and tax cuts. I want to do away completely with one and phase out the other.

Lamar, of whom are you speaking ???

Unless you can make a strong showing (not just your subjective feelings) that people on this board are just out to punish rich people, in my opinion, you're laboring under a mistaken premise that obviously taints your conclusions. :(



That's exactly how it's coming across.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

LOL,

dude you can spin it anyway you want to, the rich do NOT pay their share of taxes..

fuckin Leona Helmsley said taxes are for little people and she was jailed for snitching.. NOT for anything else...


why else would she say that, I aint reading that billionaire sponsored article to know that the super wealthy love playing the hide the money game...you can post all the articles you wwant... but in this capitalistic society where capital rules and everything else follows, it obvious quote taxes are for little people unquote..

and no I aint reading that jedi mind trick article and please the govt aint nothing but a whore for the highest bidder..

and who bids the highest son, who bids the highest???

raise taxes on the rich no matter how much they cry and bitch.. they have beeen laughing at the middle class tooo fuckin long, its time they shed some tears..
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Rich pay more income taxes but they earn more so they should. They do not pay payroll taxes or the various fees workers pay so it not fair at all. But, raising taxes is not the answer, rich people would just pass it on to workers in the form of lower wages, higher prices etc thats why they are rich. We need a new education curriculum that instills capitalistic values and principles that way more people would think wealth instead of job. Meantime the govt has to force business to spend those trillions they are sitting on because its a threat to national security if they don't. Those protest on Wall Street will eventually spread to Main Street if something isn't done quick.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Rich pay more income taxes but they earn more so they should. They do not pay payroll taxes or the various fees workers pay so it not fair at all. But, raising taxes is not the answer, rich people would just pass it on to workers in the form of lower wages, higher prices etc thats why they are rich. We need a new education curriculum that instills capitalistic values and principles that way more people would think wealth instead of job. Meantime the govt has to force business to spend those trillions they are sitting on because its a threat to national security if they don't. Those protest on Wall Street will eventually spread to Main Street if something isn't done quick.

I don't want to raise taxes, just end the tax cuts and cut spending. The normal tax rates are fine.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Lamar, of whom are you speaking ???

Unless you can make a strong showing (not just your subjective feelings) that people on this board are just out to punish rich people, in my opinion, you're laboring under a mistaken premise that obviously taints your conclusions. :(

c'mon Que!

Thought went out of his way to create a size 7 "font size". He's obviously bitter!

Raise the taxes on the wealthy!

This quote I found earlier. It's obviously not a "pro-middle-class" type of post, it IS "anti-rich" for lack of a better term. All I said is that there are some on this board who would like to penalize success, and there you have it.

raise taxes on the rich no matter how much they cry and bitch.. they have beeen laughing at the middle class tooo fuckin long, its time they shed some tears..

sounds retaliatory to me!

No one has yet to inform us how this bill will 'help' the middle class. BrainChild nailed this at the beginning

I know many of you are going to read it, the question really is how many of you will choose to ignore it.
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

c'mon Que!

Thought went out of his way to create a size 7 "font size". He's obviously bitter!

Assuming, arguendo, you're right (a point that is not conceded); you cite ONE (1) poster, ONE, as being SOME ? ? ? That is tantamount to dishonesty. :(



Here is something that I believe is DIRECTLY ON POINT, that you, Gunner, Brainchild and like thinkers should consider:


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hOyDR2b71ag" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​



 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

c'mon Que!

Thought went out of his way to create a size 7 "font size". He's obviously bitter!

Bitter?:lol:

"its obvious that some on this board want to penalize success."

Who's bitter?
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Assuming, arguendo, you're right (a point that is not conceded); you cite ONE (1) poster, ONE, as being SOME ? ? ? That is tantamount to dishonesty. :(


I actually quoted 2 posters (post 9 & post 24). And I didn't have to search very hard, the retaliatory tone is all around
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

I actually quoted 2 posters (post 9 & post 24). And I didn't have to search very hard, the retaliatory tone is all around


...and eliminate the business loop holes!
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

I actually quoted 2 posters (post 9 & post 24). And I didn't have to search very hard, the retaliatory tone is all around

Okay <s>Miss</s> <u>Mr.</u> Cleo. I didn't know that you're a mind reader and know what others are thinking :smh: LOL

Your "second" poster said, in what appears to be his opening/thesis sentence:

LOL,

dude you can spin it anyway you want to, the rich do NOT pay their share of taxes.

I won't pretend to know what he is thinking, but the statement on its face says "the rich do NOT pay their share of taxes." All I could gather from that and that which followed was that the poster doesn't believe the tax system is fair.

But, since you concluded that the posters wants to penalize success, I guess we'll have to take your omnisicient word for it. Unless, however, the poster differs from your word. Then what do we believe? - what the poster says or your crystal ball :confused:

But the bottom line is, you really haven't demonstrated that this about
people being bitter or penalizing the rich.


 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot



I won't pretend to know what he is thinking, but the statement on its face says "the rich do NOT pay their share of taxes." All I could gather from that and that which followed was that the poster doesn't believe the tax system is fair.

But, since you concluded that the posters wants to penalize success, I guess we'll have to take your omnisicient word for it. Unless, however, the poster differs from your word. Then what do we believe? - what the poster says or your crystal ball :confused:

But the bottom line is, you really haven't demonstrated that this about
people being bitter or penalizing the rich.

Damn Que, you better than that :smh: ........ I understand you read his first sentence which is NOT what I was referring to; I quoted his last sentence, Did you bother to read his post.....or mine? I'll re-post!

raise taxes on the rich no matter how much they cry and bitch.. they have beeen laughing at the middle class tooo fuckin long, its time they shed some tears..

it's retaliatory, which is what post 27 indicated
 
Re: WaPost Fact Checker: The Rich Do Pay Higher Percentage of Income in Taxes Than Ot

Govt has nothing to give; they can only give what they take!
 
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