tobe's value to the fakers: a retrospective

[cranrab]

"The kid is real good and I see a lot of myself in him, no doubt about it." -Michael Jordan

i pray that you are not fully the obtuse buffoon you repeatedly demonstrate here on the SPORTS board.

ABSENT ANY CRITERIA OR MEASURES, there is NO comparison made in the quote you have provided above.

while michael jordan IS stating that he sees "a lot of myself in [tobe]", ABSENT ANY CRITERIA OR MEASURES, it is NOT a comparison.

for instance, michael jordan did NOT say:

"we are both carbon based mammals"

"we are both professional athletes"

"we both played for the same head coach"

"we are similar in height"

"our jump shots are similar"

compare: to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences

i hope you truly are armenian, because your lack of basic english skills is appalling.

 

[TrojansFan]

i pray that you are not fully the obtuse buffoon you repeatedly demonstrate here on the SPORTS board.

ABSENT ANY CRITERIA OR MEASURES, there is NO comparison made in the quote you have provided above.

while michael jordan IS stating that he sees "a lot of myself in [tobe]", ABSENT ANY CRITERIA OR MEASURES, it is NOT a comparison.

for instance, michael jordan did NOT say:

"we are both carbon based mammals"

"we are both professional athletes"

"we both played for the same head coach"

"we are similar in height"

"our jump shots are similar"

compare: to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences

i hope you truly are armenian, because your lack of basic english skills is appalling.

"The kid is real good and I see a lot of myself in him, no doubt about it." -Michael Jordan

 

[cranrab]

"The kid is real good and I see a lot of myself in him, no doubt about it." -Michael Jordan

aw. poor baby trying to hide behind an empty quote. guess those ESL lessons were too much for him.

go ahead an post another pretty smiley face.

good little boy.

 

[Jae-Henchman951]

uh huh. i already told you, i don't expect you to understand english. since you so graciously provided the quote (again), kindly point out to me (and any other english speaking reader) where michael jordan provides any ACTUAL POINTS OF COMPARISON.

or was michael jordan simply being benevolent in his role as elder statesman?

or maybe you just want to read something into it that isn't there.



read it again, sir. maybe have a translator read it for you, since apparently you cannot comprehend it by yourself.

I'm looking at his post-up game and the way when his jump shot isn't falling he goes to the hole, or does what he needs to do to get himself to the foul line.

sigh. michael jordan points out a couple things that he has observed in tobe's game. nowhere does michael jordan make a FAVORABLE COMPARISON.

I like that he takes the game very, very seriously

an admiring observation from a classy sportsman. again, NOT a FAVORABLE COMPARISON BY ANY MEANS.

Obviously there will be comparisons from here on out between Kobe and me, just as there were between me and Dr. J when I first came into the league

and again, as i informed you earlier, this is an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that comparisons will be made. michael jordan is NOT making a comparison, understand?

here are examples for other non-english as a first language readers like yourself:

NOT a comparison: mcdonalds has salty french fries.

IS a comparison: mcdonalds french fries are saltier than burger king french fries.

NOT a comparison: pepsi cola tastes nice on a hot day.

IS a comparison: coca cola has more carbonation than pepsi.

NOT a comparison: people have and always will compare AVIS to HERTZ.

IS a comparison: AVIS gives more free mileage than HERTZ.

starting to understand the difference?

who'd think that remedial english and logic assistance would be necessary on BGOL?

I have to admit I laughed when I read this

 

[Spectrum]

i pray that you are not fully the obtuse buffoon you repeatedly demonstrate here on the SPORTS board.

ABSENT ANY CRITERIA OR MEASURES, there is NO comparison made in the quote you have provided above.

while michael jordan IS stating that he sees "a lot of myself in [tobe]", ABSENT ANY CRITERIA OR MEASURES, it is NOT a comparison.

for instance, michael jordan did NOT say:

"we are both carbon based mammals"

"we are both professional athletes"

"we both played for the same head coach"

"we are similar in height"

"our jump shots are similar"

compare: to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences

i hope you truly are armenian, because your lack of basic english skills is appalling.

OWNED

 

[Spectrum]

so you KNOW something because somebody told you.

have you ever tried to see for yourself whether or not the comparison itself is ridiculous or not?

AS AN 82 GAME STARTER, michael jordan improved the bulls' record every season for 7 consecutive seasons.

IN SPITE OF 4 DIFFERENT head coaches in place.

every bulls team michael jordan played on made the playoffs.

can tobe make any of those claims while with the fakers? NO.

NCAA champion?

olympic champion?

starter his rookie season?

rookie of the year?

defensive player of the year?

consecutive MVP?

consecutive finals MVP?

tobe can't SNIFF these.

multiple consecutive NBA champion?

all NBA 1st team 7 consecutive seasons?

all defense 1st team 6 consecutive seasons?

career FG% over 50%?

tobe will NEVER accomplish any of these.

so given all of this (and i've even left out a few), specifically what ISN'T ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS AND UNWARRANTED about comparing tobe to michael jordan? in all seriousness, please.



i see. it's OK to compare a rain drop to a tsunami.

here's 2 more quotes for you, BTW:

June 2001: "I am my own player and I want to be identified as my own player. There will never be another Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever. I can't take (the comparisons) too seriously. That's Michael Jordan. I can't even roll with that."

May 2001: "You know, Kobe does have a sense about the game that's similar to Michael's. And I think he has that will, even though he has a guy on his team -- Shaq -- who is the dominator, which was the luxury Michael never had. Kobe likes to rise to occasions, to big-time situations like Michael did."

TrojansFan.. how can you even argue after this post. Look at that list man.... to continue to argue this point is to admit you are allergic to facts.

 

[TrojansFan]

"The kid is real good and I see a lot of myself in him, no doubt about it." -Michael Jordan

 

[SpiritualPorn]

I have to admit I laughed when I read this

So did I

Cran shut him up so bad that he's starting to stutter.

Don't worry Trojan Can...

Kobe still loves you......

 

[LordSinister]

Crans hate is legendary!!

You compare how Jordan's teams improved every year, well hell, the bulls of the 80's were pure shit.(Think White Shadow )

He better have gotten more wins. Anyway, the championship Laker teams had worse records every year after irfirst ship. What does that mean?

You can pull all types of stats out of your ass, but "Tobe" has three more rings than you do.

You can pull all the Iverson shit out of your ass you want, but he never won shit. He wont ever win shit. Sorry.

Fuckin Nuggets team SP is .460
Iverchump: .440
Career: .422

Bryant: .460
Team: .464

The "Weasel" is also leading the "fakers" in assists. That kinda kills the Lamar running the team argument.

Look, I can understand why you hate the Lakers and the mighty city of Los Angeles, but to take it out on one man is silly.

Anyway, I have searched high and low for your team and can't find it. Are you ashamed to tell me who you got? Why?

Ok, maybe you're shy.

I'll go first.

Basketball: Lakers. Old teams 70's Spurs (Iceman) 70's Sixers (Tha Doc)

Football: Rams, Raider, Saints Chicago, Minnesota (LA doesn't have a team, so I pick the ones that left and my parents home teams. Moms was born in LA and raised in the Chi)

College: Football = USC and the Golden Gophers (Pops alma mater) SDSU Mine

College Basketball = UCLA, SDSU

College Baseball = USC, SDSU

Baseball: Angels, Dodgers, Twins

Fuck Hockey and Soccer

So who you got cuzz? Irvine? Santa Barbara? Pacoima?

 

[cranrab]

You compare how Jordan's teams improved every year, well hell, the bulls of the 80's were pure shit.

and? did anyone champion the greatness of the pre-michael jordan bulls? not me.

and pointing out a simple FACT about michael jordan's positive impact shouldn't get under your skin so bad. it's a simple FACT. if you feel it somehow diminishes tobe, that's not MY problem.

He better have gotten more wins. Anyway, the championship Laker teams had worse records every year after irfirst ship. What does that mean?

i thought that was clearly pointed out in this and other threads. as tobe's starts increased, the fakers winning percentage decreased. not made up. another simple TRUTH.

You can pull all types of stats out of your ass, but "Tobe" has three more rings than you do.

wow. and coach rambis has 4. so? and coach shaw has 3 too. so? don't play like you don't know tobe was in the right place at the right time. tobe rode the gravy wagon just like every other faker not named shaquille o'neal and phil jackson.

You can pull all the Iverson shit out of your ass you want, but he never won shit. He wont ever win shit. Sorry.

that's fine. but i don't see idiots running around talking about allen iverson being the best ever. or the best in the game. so it really doesn't make sense for you to get jealous about allen iverson's achievements. his fans don't reside in delusional fantasy worlds.

Fuckin Nuggets team SP is .460
Iverchump: .440
Career: .422

and if you were an honest BASKETBALL fan, you'd readily admit that the only reason for the FG% difference is the lack of playing 7 seasons with shaquille o'neal in the pivot.

Bryant: .460
Team: .464

and tobe's career FG%?

The "Weasel" is also leading the "fakers" in assists. That kinda kills the Lamar running the team argument.

i see. and you infer that has something to do with some talent, and NOT the simple FACT that tobe's played more minutes than any other faker? and NOT the simple FACT that lamar odom has played 21 fewer games than tobe? and NOT the simple FACT that tobe has more touches than any other fakers?

and as i pointed out in this thread and several others, again: the fakers had their worst record in tobe's career high ASSIST year.

I can understand why you hate the Lakers and the mighty city of Los Angeles, but to take it out on one man is silly.

then you'd be back in your fantasy world again. i was born and raised there. i've always had a home here, even when i played elsewhere.

I have searched high and low for your team and can't find it. Are you ashamed to tell me who you got? Why?

stop being so damned lazy and use the search function. but since it has some value to you, and this is the 3rd or 4th time you've asked, i'm happy to tell you that my team is the 76ers. always has been, since 1977.

Football: Rams, Raider, Saints Chicago, Minnesota (LA doesn't have a team, so I pick the ones that left and my parents home teams. Moms was born in LA and raised in the Chi)

you're definitely a los angeles sports fan. how the hell you claim FIVE teams? been a raiders fan since 1976 and hasn't changed. my pops had season tickets to the sorry ass rams, and i hated going to watch pat haden and vince ferragamo play.

College: Football = USC and the Golden Gophers (Pops alma mater) SDSU Mine

not a fan of watching college football. enjoyed watching some of the michigan and penn state teams in the late 1980's, but no real interest.

College Basketball = UCLA, SDSU

not a fan of watching college basketball. the talent level is too poor, and lacks the mental aspect of the professional game.

relevant example: look how over-hyped the players from the last bruin NCAA tournament championship team (1995) were.

tyus edney
ed o'bannon
george zidek

but it's FACT that the players from the less successful and NOT HYPED UCLA teams before had longer NBA careers.

mitchell butler
don maclean
gerald madkins
darrick martin
tracy murray

College Baseball = USC, SDSU

Baseball: Angels, Dodgers, Twins

not a baseball fan, but i've been to several dodgers, angels and astros games.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

The next two games are gonna be interesting for L.A. They have the Suns today, and Denver on Tuesday.

Denver bumped them out of the 6th spot last night with a win over the Clips, so how LA performs will either mean if they are 1 1/2 games up..or 1 1/2 games behind the Nuggets by the end of Tuesday.

**EDIT-Damn, I didn't know they played the Clips too this week.

 

[LordSinister]

and? did anyone champion the greatness of the pre-michael jordan bulls? not me.

I was making the point that the team was in the trash. That's all. Nowhere to go but up.

and pointing out a simple FACT about michael jordan's positive impact shouldn't get under your skin so bad. it's a simple FACT. if you feel it somehow diminishes tobe, that's not MY problem.

It doesn't. Mike was the shit. I still Think Russel is the goat based on competition and winning. Then I'd take Magic, then Mike. Just my opinion.

i thought that was clearly pointed out in this and other threads. as tobe's starts increased, the fakers winning percentage decreased. not made up. another simple TRUTH.

Starts or stats? Hell, this season the Heat are better without Wade than with him? Does that make him any less of a talent? There are a lot of bitch Ninjas in the NBA that are satisfied with getting paid. You never seem to acknowledge this.

wow. and coach rambis has 4. so? and coach shaw has 3 too. so? don't play like you don't know tobe was in the right place at the right time. tobe rode the gravy wagon just like every other faker not named shaquille o'neal and phil jackson.

How many does Kerr have? Or Horry? Real talk, David Robinson never won shit till he got Timmy. I never see you talk shit about the "Admiral"

that's fine. but i don't see idiots running around talking about allen iverson being the best ever. or the best in the game. so it really doesn't make sense for you to get jealous about allen iverson's achievements. his fans don't reside in delusional fantasy worlds.

Who's jealous? Cats here swear by Iverson, and you like him too even though he's way more of a chucker than Kobe ever was.

and if you were an honest BASKETBALL fan, you'd readily admit that the only reason for the FG% difference is the lack of playing 7 seasons with shaquille o'neal in the pivot.

HUH? He's shooting .460 this season. His highest was .469 He's shooting his highest percentage at the 3 line. All without any pivot presence. Unless you call Kwame a force in the middle

and tobe's career FG%?

.452

i see. and you infer that has something to do with some talent, and NOT the simple FACT that tobe's played more minutes than any other faker? and NOT the simple FACT that lamar odom has played 21 fewer games than tobe? and NOT the simple FACT that tobe has more touches than any other fakers?
and as i pointed out in this thread and several others, again: the fakers had their worst record in tobe's career high ASSIST year.

So you want to compare "this" Laker team to the championship ones? When I speak on assists, I'm talking PER GAME AVERAGE. This year, Kobe has more assists per game. He's leading the team in that department, despite the lack of another clutch player.

then you'd be back in your fantasy world again. i was born and raised there. i've always had a home here, even when i played elsewhere.

Then why all the Laker hate?

stop being so damned lazy and use the search function. but since it has some value to you, and this is the 3rd or 4th time you've asked, i'm happy to tell you that my team is the 76ers. always has been, since 1977.

Bout time. I did do a search, and after three pages of reading your biased drivel, I got fatigued.

you're definitely a los angeles sports fan. how the hell you claim FIVE teams? been a raiders fan since 1976 and hasn't changed. my pops had season tickets to the sorry ass rams, and i hated going to watch pat haden and vince ferragamo play.

Well, there is no team in LA. My father was from minnesota, so I watched sports with him when I was a kid and picked up his squads. The same thing with my mother. She's a die hard cubs fan, so I follow the cubs somewhat. Is that hard to understand?

not a fan of watching college football. enjoyed watching some of the michigan and penn state teams in the late 1980's, but no real interest.

OK. But to me college football is the truth.

not a fan of watching college basketball. the talent level is too poor, and lacks the mental aspect of the professional game.

But for a guy that always talks about team ball, how can you not love the college game? Hell, womens basketball is played more correctly than the NBA. That's why cats like LeBronze, D-Fade and Marshmellow Anthony cannot beat the so called "Euro-Trash" in a team sport.

relevant example: look how over-hyped the players from the last bruin NCAA tournament championship team (1995) were.

tyus edney
ed o'bannon
george zidek

but it's FACT that the players from the less successful and NOT HYPED UCLA teams before had longer NBA careers.

mitchell butler
don maclean
gerald madkins
darrick martin
tracy murray

True, but none of those bitches set the league on fire.

How do you judge players? By wins or stats?

If you want to pull stats out, then you must be the biggest Kobe stan on the planet.

What is it?

Wins or stats?

You can't hate on kobe for padding stats, then chose marginal players like Tracy Murray over Ed O'bannon who actually won a championship.

not a baseball fan, but i've been to several dodgers, angels and astros games.

Ok.

Look homie, I respect your opinion, I just don't understand the hate. Like I have always said, I'm a Laker fan, Not a Kobe fan. But the team is fucked up.

Lamar is a basket case.

Smush is a crybaby.

Mo Evans is gay, for real, he's a fagot. But he can ball so fuckit.

Mihm, Geicko Caveman, Brian Cook and Brown are soft as newborn baby shit.

Haters always talk about Kobe can't make players better, muthafcukin Jordan couldn't make Kwame better. What the fuck does this mean? Are you willing to admit that some players cannot be made better.

Smush is who we thought he was A NBADL graduate.

Kwame is a girlyman. He plays when he wants to. which is whenever he's not bleeding vaginally.

Brian Cook is a whiteboy in a semi black mans body. A fuckin Tinman with no heart.

Kobe is a fuckin loner that is learning on the fly how to deal with people. He took Jordans phoney routine and ran with it.

Jordan cheats on his wife with a white bitch. Kobe did the same shit.

Most cats with endorsement deals are fake. Jordan used to beat ninjas down in the clubhouse, and clown Kwame so much, he would cry. A real great teamate there.

Kobe got real issues with people. Yeah he's arrogant. Wouldn't you be? He has 3 championships. He would have had more if Snaq wouldn't take summers off, or if he'd have been dominant during the first 4 seasons he was here. (In the playoffs)

Agent 0 has the biggest chip I've ever seen talking about he'd score 80 against Duke.

Anyway, keep hating Kobe and eatin cheese stakes. Oh, and remember I predicted that the 76's would be better than Denver in the long run.

 

[cranrab]

I was making the point that the team was in the trash. That's all. Nowhere to go but up.

almost a fair statement. it presumes that the chicago bulls could have "gone up" without michael jordan also. but the FACT is, that WITH michael jordan, the chicago bulls did "go up". the TRUTH is, that michael jordan steadily elevated the chicago bulls.

example: the 1994 milwaukee bucks were "in the trash" (20 wins). one could say they had "nowhere to go but up" after drafting glenn robinson. did they thrive and flourish? no. that's how then ended up in the same situation again 2 seasons later (25 wins)

not every player can elevate a team. so it's NOT a fair assumption that poor teams will simply improve with ANY addition of talent.

Starts or stats?

starts. how is it logically possible that a team with "the best player in basketball" LOSES MORE FREQUENTLY WHEN HE STARTS MORE GAMES? simple answer. it's not. therefore, that person can NOT be "the best player in basketball". consequently, that person can NOT be "the best player" even on his own team.

proof: i've already posted in several threads the fakers' win/loss record without tobe v. the fakers' win/loss record without shaquille o'neal. case closed.

Hell, this season the Heat are better without Wade than with him? Does that make him any less of a talent?

the miami heat have performed better without dwyane wade this season. but i don't believe that dwyane wade's absence makes the miami heat a better team.

and NO, that does not minimize dwyane wade's talent. in fact, is should only further solidify the hierarchy that is already well known: shaquille o'neal is the most important player on the roster, followed by dwyane wade.

There are a lot of bitch Ninjas in the NBA that are satisfied with getting paid. You never seem to acknowledge this.

i agree. i didn't think this was a point of contention that needed acknowledgement. i'm not sure i see how discussing personnel with poor (or non-existent) work ethic is relevant to this thread.

How many does Kerr have?

i think steve kerr has 4 championship rings. but i may be mistaken. i don't really follow the careers of lebanese pussific 10 guards. like tobe, steve kerr was in the right place at the right time, and rode on the coat tails of a superior player and a winning coach.

because we all know how steve kerr managed to improve phoenix, cleveland, orlando and portland while he was with those teams, right?

Or Horry?

lumping steve kerr into the same group as robert horry is as foul as throwing tobe into the same group as michael jordan.

first of all, robert horry was a starter on consecutive championships with the houston rockets. steve kerr was never a starter on any of the championship squads he played for.

second, robert horry was a major contributor to the rockets' success. if you watched the finals when the rockets swept the magic, you'd know that robert horry did WAY more for the rockets than either sam cassell or kenny smith.

third, robert horry was a major contributor to the fakers' championship teams too. as a fakers fan, you should appreciate the playoff minutes he logged even though he was rarely a starter. people like to mention robert horry's big last second shots, but i wonder why they seldom mention that he was the 2nd leading rebounder behind shaquille o'neal during 2 of those championship runs?

steve kerr belongs in the same category as jack haley (who is in the running for head coach of long beach state ). steve kerr has no business being lumped together with robert horry.

David Robinson never won shit till he got Timmy. I never see you talk shit about the "Admiral"

again, there's no idiots running around here (or anywhere else) talking nonsense about david robinson being "the best player in the game". even in david robinson's MVP season (the 2nd year of michael jordan's FIRST retirement), when he lead the san antonio spurs to the league's best record (62-20) and the WCF, NOBODY was saying dumb shit like "david robinson is the best player in the game".

david robinson owned hakeem olajuwon in the regular season, with the spurs winning the matchup 5-1.

so again, there's NO NEED to refute any bogus claims about david robinson, because nobody's making any bogus claims about him. but bogus claims about tobe are plentiful.

everybody knows the spurs didn't have a winning record for 6 consecutive seasons before david robinson. and everybody knows the spurs never again had a losing record in any season david robinson played. but tobe has 2005.

everybody knows that the spurs had 35 more wins with david robinson in his ROOKIE season. and that david robinson was ROTY. but tobe didn't start until his 3rd season.

everybody knows the spurs made the playoffs every season david robinson played. and the year david robinson didn't play, the spurs only won 20 games and didn't make the playoffs. but historical FACT PROVES that the fakers played better without tobe in the starting lineup. and again, tobe has 2005.

david robinson's record speaks for itself. and so does tobe's, if you're willing to examine it HONESTLY.

Cats here swear by Iverson, and you like him too even though he's way more of a chucker than Kobe ever was.

i DO enjoy watching allen iverson play. but as i've mentioned before, it's because i enjoy watching his speed and quickness (something few people can appreciate or understand) with the ball. i certainly don't "swear by" him.

and allen iverson more of a chucker? tobe was like what, DOUBLE the amount of 40+ FGA games than allen iverson, but tobe's NOT a bigger chucker?

So you want to compare "this" Laker team to the championship ones?

NO. i'm not limiting this discussion to any group of seasons. i'm talking tobe's CAREER.

When I speak on assists, I'm talking PER GAME AVERAGE. This year, Kobe has more assists per game.

so am i. to date, this season is only his FOURTH best year in terms of assist per game.

in order from highest to lowest assist per game average, they are:

2005 (6 APG) - not a championship year
2003 (5.9 APG) - not a champioinship year
2002 (5.5 APG) - a championship year
2007 (5.4 APG) - not a championship year

so i clearly wasn't talking about championship seasons. and how do you figure tobe has more assists per game this season?

Then why all the Laker hate?

no hate. just TRUTH and an accurate perspective.

for a guy that always talks about team ball, how can you not love the college game? Hell, womens basketball is played more correctly than the NBA.

don't get me wrong. there are some aspects that are appealing and nostalgic. but when you distill it, it all comes down to who has the best ball handling, senior leadership, and big game experience.

How do you judge players? By wins or stats?

by TALENT.

But the team is fucked up. Lamar is a basket case.
Smush is a crybaby. Mo Evans is gay, for real, he's a fagot. But he can ball so fuckit. Mihm, Geicko Caveman, Brian Cook and Brown are soft as newborn baby shit. Smush is who we thought he was A NBADL graduate. Kwame is a girlyman. He plays when he wants to. which is whenever he's not bleeding vaginally. Brian Cook is a whiteboy in a semi black mans body. A fuckin Tinman with no heart.

see, these are the types of comments that i think are unfair. and mildly surprsing coming from a fakers fan.

how can you make these comments about players and a team whose growth is prevented by tobe's play? when tobe hijacks the O, he necessarily retards the development of the players in the system.

IF GIVEN REASONABLE AMPLE OPPORTUNITY (for example, ALL of the games between november and december) to play TOGETHER within the system, i believe the fakers have (and HAVE had) the personnel to win 50 games.

the players can NOT learn how to react and develop instinctual behavior IN THE FAKERS SYSTEM during practice. these are characteristics established during in-game situations. tobe's inconsistent and erratic play IS the fatal flaw that makes narrowing the learning curve impossible.

Kobe is a fuckin loner that is learning on the fly how to deal with people. He took Jordans phoney routine and ran with it. Jordan cheats on his wife with a white bitch. Kobe did the same shit. Most cats with endorsement deals are fake. Jordan used to beat ninjas down in the clubhouse, and clown Kwame so much, he would cry. A real great teamate there. Kobe got real issues with people. Yeah he's arrogant. Wouldn't you be? He has 3 championships. He would have had more if Snaq wouldn't take summers off, or if he'd have been dominant during the first 4 seasons he was here. (In the playoffs) Agent 0 has the biggest chip I've ever seen talking about he'd score 80 against Duke.

all irrelevant. i talk BASKETBALL and don't concern myself with off-court intangibles. you don't need to be popular, nice, or best friends to win as a player or a coach. ask rick barry, dennis rodman or coach knight.

all the talk about perceived arrogance, tobe's criminal sexual assault charge, tattoos, cars, irish/mexican wife, is for tobe stans, NOT basketball fans.

 

[LordSinister]

almost a fair statement. it presumes that the chicago bulls could have "gone up" without michael jordan also. but the FACT is, that WITH michael jordan, the chicago bulls did "go up". the TRUTH is, that michael jordan steadily elevated the chicago bulls.

example: the 1994 milwaukee bucks were "in the trash" (20 wins). one could say they had "nowhere to go but up" after drafting glenn robinson. did they thrive and flourish? no. that's how then ended up in the same situation again 2 seasons later (25 wins)

not every player can elevate a team. so it's NOT a fair assumption that poor teams will simply improve with ANY addition of talent.



starts. how is it logically possible that a team with "the best player in basketball" LOSES MORE FREQUENTLY WHEN HE STARTS MORE GAMES? simple answer. it's not. therefore, that person can NOT be "the best player in basketball". consequently, that person can NOT be "the best player" even on his own team.

proof: i've already posted in several threads the fakers' win/loss record without tobe v. the fakers' win/loss record without shaquille o'neal. case closed.



the miami heat have performed better without dwyane wade this season. but i don't believe that dwyane wade's absence makes the miami heat a better team.

and NO, that does not minimize dwyane wade's talent. in fact, is should only further solidify the hierarchy that is already well known: shaquille o'neal is the most important player on the roster, followed by dwyane wade.



i agree. i didn't think this was a point of contention that needed acknowledgement. i'm not sure i see how discussing personnel with poor (or non-existent) work ethic is relevant to this thread.



i think steve kerr has 4 championship rings. but i may be mistaken. i don't really follow the careers of lebanese pussific 10 guards. like tobe, steve kerr was in the right place at the right time, and rode on the coat tails of a superior player and a winning coach.

because we all know how steve kerr managed to improve phoenix, cleveland, orlando and portland while he was with those teams, right?



lumping steve kerr into the same group as robert horry is as foul as throwing tobe into the same group as michael jordan.

first of all, robert horry was a starter on consecutive championships with the houston rockets. steve kerr was never a starter on any of the championship squads he played for.

second, robert horry was a major contributor to the rockets' success. if you watched the finals when the rockets swept the magic, you'd know that robert horry did WAY more for the rockets than either sam cassell or kenny smith.

third, robert horry was a major contributor to the fakers' championship teams too. as a fakers fan, you should appreciate the playoff minutes he logged even though he was rarely a starter. people like to mention robert horry's big last second shots, but i wonder why they seldom mention that he was the 2nd leading rebounder behind shaquille o'neal during 2 of those championship runs?

steve kerr belongs in the same category as jack haley (who is in the running for head coach of long beach state ). steve kerr has no business being lumped together with robert horry.



again, there's no idiots running around here (or anywhere else) talking nonsense about david robinson being "the best player in the game". even in david robinson's MVP season (the 2nd year of michael jordan's FIRST retirement), when he lead the san antonio spurs to the league's best record (62-20) and the WCF, NOBODY was saying dumb shit like "david robinson is the best player in the game".

david robinson owned hakeem olajuwon in the regular season, with the spurs winning the matchup 5-1.

so again, there's NO NEED to refute any bogus claims about david robinson, because nobody's making any bogus claims about him. but bogus claims about tobe are plentiful.

everybody knows the spurs didn't have a winning record for 6 consecutive seasons before david robinson. and everybody knows the spurs never again had a losing record in any season david robinson played. but tobe has 2005.

everybody knows that the spurs had 35 more wins with david robinson in his ROOKIE season. and that david robinson was ROTY. but tobe didn't start until his 3rd season.

everybody knows the spurs made the playoffs every season david robinson played. and the year david robinson didn't play, the spurs only won 20 games and didn't make the playoffs. but historical FACT PROVES that the fakers played better without tobe in the starting lineup. and again, tobe has 2005.

david robinson's record speaks for itself. and so does tobe's, if you're willing to examine it HONESTLY.



i DO enjoy watching allen iverson play. but as i've mentioned before, it's because i enjoy watching his speed and quickness (something few people can appreciate or understand) with the ball. i certainly don't "swear by" him.

and allen iverson more of a chucker? tobe was like what, DOUBLE the amount of 40+ FGA games than allen iverson, but tobe's NOT a bigger chucker?



NO. i'm not limiting this discussion to any group of seasons. i'm talking tobe's CAREER.



so am i. to date, this season is only his FOURTH best year in terms of assist per game.

in order from highest to lowest assist per game average, they are:

2005 (6 APG) - not a championship year
2003 (5.9 APG) - not a champioinship year
2002 (5.5 APG) - a championship year
2007 (5.4 APG) - not a championship year

so i clearly wasn't talking about championship seasons. and how do you figure tobe has more assists per game this season?



no hate. just TRUTH and an accurate perspective.



don't get me wrong. there are some aspects that are appealing and nostalgic. but when you distill it, it all comes down to who has the best ball handling, senior leadership, and big game experience.



by TALENT.



see, these are the types of comments that i think are unfair. and mildly surprsing coming from a fakers fan.

how can you make these comments about players and a team whose growth is prevented by tobe's play? when tobe hijacks the O, he necessarily retards the development of the players in the system.

IF GIVEN REASONABLE AMPLE OPPORTUNITY (for example, ALL of the games between november and december) to play TOGETHER within the system, i believe the fakers have (and HAVE had) the personnel to win 50 games.

the players can NOT learn how to react and develop instinctual behavior IN THE FAKERS SYSTEM during practice. these are characteristics established during in-game situations. tobe's inconsistent and erratic play IS the fatal flaw that makes narrowing the learning curve impossible.



all irrelevant. i talk BASKETBALL and don't concern myself with off-court intangibles. you don't need to be popular, nice, or best friends to win as a player or a coach. ask rick barry, dennis rodman or coach knight.

all the talk about perceived arrogance, tobe's criminal sexual assault charge, tattoos, cars, irish/mexican wife, is for tobe stans, NOT basketball fans.

You know cranrab. You're alright. We will finish this in the playoffs. See you, and not the sixers there.

 

[SpiritualPorn]

L Odum LA vs LO Miami: (Insidehoops)

That's one thing that people need to understand.

It's not about Kobe. It's not about Wade. It's not about Elton Brand. Not about SVG. Not about Phil Jackson. Although you could argue that it was about Rudy Tomjanovich and Kobe in the past but not now.

Anywho, Odom right now is averaging

16.0 ppg
9.9 rpg
5.0 apg
46.7 % FG %

As you can see, that's probably better than what he averaged in Miami

17.1 ppg
9.7 rpg
4.1 apg
43 % FG %

So, why do the people keep talking about Odom in Miami?

My logic is that he doesn't know how to defer to a better player. When he feels that he's not the best player on the floor, he loses his agression and just defers, wants the other guy to do anything.

I'm guess I'm sick of people expecting big things out of him and blaming Kobe when in fact he never was as good at people think.

You know what will support my case that Odom wasn't all that good in Miami and when othery guy took over, Odom's stats went down?

Miami in the playoffs.

We all know that Wade become their key player in the playoffs. He put the team on his shoulders and lead them far.

Now, here are Odom's stats from the playoffs in 2004.

16.8 ppg
8.3 rpg
2.8 apg
44.5%

OMG...that can't be. PPG down, RPG down, APG down. How so?

Now, this is very IMPORTANT.

I do not blame DWade or want to make him look like a lesser player. Dwyane Wade is an amazing basketball player, a great leader and terrific teammate.

It's about time we stop blaming other people for how chronically some people underachieve because quite frankly, most of the time it's not the fault of those people.

Now, here's why people see LO in Miami as the best LO

1 That was a team with no ambition. Let's be real, they started the season with 0-7 or something and very few people expected the playoffs.
Then when the went on a winning spree and eventually made the playoffs as undergrounds, Miami fans were psyched. But in reality, I think DWade took over. I'm not sure but I do think I remember that when Wade took over, Miami started winning.

2. They made it further than the Lakers in the playoffs. Then again, they faced the Hornets in the first round and beat them in a 7 game series.

So without further ado, I give you Lamar Odom. The player that he is and the player that he always will be.

Adios.

Today, 04:57 AM #2
Mayweather
Kids at the park dunk on me

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 206 Re: Lamar Odom is better now than he was with Miami
I think a lof of people have seen Odom the way you see it now. It just some Laker fans hyping up Odom to be the next Pippen to their "Jordan".

Today, 05:26 AM #3
FabCasablancas
Local High School Star

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,686 Re: Lamar Odom is better now than he was with Miami
Let's put it this way.. if Odom went from Miami with a rookie Wade.. and Dirk was on the Lakers with Phil Jackosn as coach.. i would expect Odom to be MUCH better than he was in Miami because of how good Dirk would make him.

I honestly believe that if Odom was playing with Dirk Odom would look like an MVP candidate..

I honestly believe that Kobe doesn't make the players around him better.. the way Kobe plays doesn't make the players around him better.. he takes too many long range shots.. teams don't need to double Kobe on the peirmeter when he is taking bad shots like that all the time.. they want him too.. and that's Kobe's game.. it's an inefficient game. Yeah.. sometimes he gets hot and goes off.. but more than not he hurts his team IMO.

I think Odom makes Kobe better than Kobe makes Odom.. but Kobe doesn't really fully take full advantage of this for the above stated reasons too..

 

[SpiritualPorn]

Re: tobe's value to the fakers: what else does the data show?

before the end of the shaquille o'neal fakers era ended, tobe had these words to say in an interview with ESPN:

"There's more to life than whose team this is. But, this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court. It also means no more blaming others for our team's failure or blaming staff members for not over-dramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning."

the media regurgitated this quote, and the lemming-like fakers fans swallowed it whole, as if it were gospel.

of course, fakers fans didn't bother to recall the TRUTH, which is that during the fakers championship seasons, tobe sat out 32 games. shaq only sat out 26 games. so who REALLY was the one who was tanking it?

if you want to expand the range beyond the championship seasons, how about a comparison between shaquille o'neal and tobe WHILE THEY BOTH WERE STARTERS?

tobe missed 49 games.
shaq missed 57 games.

WOW. shaq missed a total of 8 more games than tobe did over a 6 season span. 1.33 games fewer missed games per season entitles tobe to hurl accusations of sand bagging toward shaquille o'neal? laughable.

yet the fakers fan sheep soaked it up like a sponge.

The more I read this the more it resembles slander. This is an opinion from another player about his teammate tanking games and a franchise. This accusation is even worse than the shit he pulled in Colorado.

I am very sure some players mail it in some nights. I sure wouldn't want someone exposing me when I did it.

Additionally, this is coming from a guy that was getting surgery done and ended up in a rape case. He wasn't focused on basketball that night.

Didn't they just win three in a row?

What veteran player would want to play with someone that takes inside information public to cover their own ass? As it is now, every player that plays with Tobe lately comes away diminished. A veteran looking to retire in 4 to 5 years doesnt want that kind of drama.

The press fails to bring this up. Fans have very short memories.