I knew they fucked up when they brought him back a week after the huge build up of him leaving, and as you said him leading off Raw every week whining also didn't help. Rock was hated to the core but unlike Cena they turned him heel because he wasn't selling any merch. When he became "The Rock" he was able to flourish and let his true identity show, he started getting cheered while being heel and then that led to the mega face turn. He & Austin started waning during the end of the attitude era Austin after Survivor Series 2001 and Rock before Summerslam 2002, but that was due to Rock leaving to do movies and Austin becoming a shell basically. The biggest mistake Vince made was forgetting at the wrong times that todays fans have a real short attention span so when he finally had something that people were willing to wait for he hotshot the whole angle. People have wanted Cena to turn heel forever but it seems as though he will never pull the trigger.
THE WRESTLING THREAD: HHH KEEPS DOING HHH THINGS.....
- Thread starter ArsenalCannon357
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I knew they fucked up when they brought him back a week after the huge build up of him leaving, and as you said him leading off Raw every week whining also didn't help. Rock was hated to the core but unlike Cena they turned him heel because he wasn't selling any merch. When he became "The Rock" he was able to flourish and let his true identity show, he started getting cheered while being heel and then that led to the mega face turn. He & Austin started waning during the end of the attitude era Austin after Survivor Series 2001 and Rock before Summerslam 2002, but that was due to Rock leaving to do movies and Austin becoming a shell basically. The biggest mistake Vince made was forgetting at the wrong times that todays fans have a real short attention span so when he finally had something that people were willing to wait for he hotshot the whole angle. People have wanted Cena to turn heel forever but it seems as though he will never pull the trigger.
Chavo is speakin the truth.
To me, the difference is Cena has been pushed as "SuperCena" while Rock won a lot but he lost a lot too.
I will say Cena has worked extremely hard to go from a terrible worker to a decent one. He's still not technically sound (in doing the moves in a realistic looking way as we were talking about the way he does the STF) but the dude busts ass to try to have good matches.
As for "smart fans" and the unreasonable hate on Cena, the shit is out of control. I've seen cats try to tell me that Hogan and Warrior were better wrestlers than Cena. Hogan and Cena are about even but Warrior? Warrior?
Don't read anything into people cheering when ADR cashed in the briefcase. When Jack Swagger cashed it in last year, the arena popped huge. It is an exciting moment.
I'm glad you brought up Miz. That's the difference in how they handle one of their own "creations" (Miz) and one who comes in already complete (Punk).
Best angle in wrestling.
Rock and Cena are very much alike. Neither will ever be great all around workers. Both were shoved down fans' throats based purely on how they look. Rock was fortunate that the current management had the good sense to back off and work to find his niche (I doubt when they turned him, they had any real plans, it just worked out) while Cena just had a rocket strapped to his ass and now it's too late to bring him back.
That guy running bumps with him is Samoa Joe
I noticed both of them. How the fuck did they get to be so good and him so shitty?
And he's the one making millions.
People haven't really wanted Cena to turn heel, they figure he will since he gets booed so much and it may freshen up his character to try something different. I see people often make the comparison to Hogan's turn in WCW but they're not the same.
Austin and Rock had gotten stale by 2001-2002. Rock got an shot when he went "Hollywood" but he was still too popular for it to take and Austin had been turned back and forth so many times, it burnt fans out.
I like Chavito and all but Chavo, sit down. Shitting on Cena is apparently getting you some Twitter followers and more attention than when you were with WWE. That's nice.
Go do some indy work to help these young guys come along (I know he doesn't need the money).
Go do some indy work to help these young guys come along (I know he doesn't need the money).
Exactly.If they pushed the Rock like they did Cena the hate on him would have been huge as well.At one point the fans did turn on him but not at the level of Cena and part of that is that the Rock would lose to people clean and he was strong enough that a loss didn't damage him and the company recognized that.Lesnar got built up as a monster,eventually got a title shot against the Rock and beat him clean.And they didn't turn around put the strap right back on the Rock or do anything to damage Lesnar and they need to do that with Cena.He'll lose occasionally but it's always fluky and never clean and then they feel the need to give him his win back immediately often at the expense of someone else.
And it's taken them months to get the Miz back on track.If they didn't fuck up and job him out consistently for months after he lost the belt he'd already be in great position.Plus it helps the Miz that in the overall context he's a company guy always making appearances and things of that nature so they were likely to eventually build him back up.
Just think of how much of a better position Miz and Christian would be in they had allowed them to beat Cena or Orton clean.
Rock could have easily got lost in the shuffle and ended up doing the opposite.Cena was stale when he first came up,got big when he did the rapper gimmick and then became stale again as they toned down the character further along during his face run especially after he became a member of the Raw roster.
I think that that one is pretty easy.Cena went from UPW to OVW aka WWE developmental to learn the WWE style.Both Samoa Joe and Kaz went on to working the indys and touring the world for years allowing them to ply their craft and try out different things.Eventually both ended up in TNA and Kazarian even made it to the WWE before he got fired after refusing to get a haircut after Vince McMahon asked him to.
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You're right about Rock losing a lot because him losing all those times made people wan to see him win even more. HHH won all the time and he's just now getting the "respect" pops, but back then he was legitimately hated by almost everyone. The people that say Hogan & Warrior are better than Cena are crack smokers because it's a well known fact that Warrior got tired out just from doing his entrance. The 2 moves that Cena does that i hate are the STF & his Hip toss, it weak and he injured himself in a match with Kennedy doing that shit.
When Rock became "Hollywood Rock" which was just as great as the early "Hollywood Hogan" it worked because fans wanted to boo him and loved it. He got the right kind of heat and when he said goodbye at Backlash 03 he got a standing ovation.
Austin 2003 Interview after walking out
You can see that Austin had a little bitch in him back then as well, he helped catapult Rock but Rock kept him afloat longer than he would've been. If it wasn't for Bret Hart Austin might not have been as big as he became.
true dat
Miss Tessmacher and Mickie James wrestling now. Gotdamn those some phat white bitches! 
Miss Tessmacher and Mickie James wrestling now. Gotdamn those some phat white bitches!
Miss Tessmacher and Mickie James wrestling now. Gotdamn those some phat white bitches!
Yes Lawd!!!!
Yep.
Christian's feud with Orton would have been much better if Christian at least looked like he could beat Orton. Not just have good matches but win. The one win he got was on a DQ. He came out looking like a bitch. Now he's about to put over Sheamus but it won't be as big as if he was presented as strong heel instead of just another cowardly, conniving heel.
Yep. He almost did. He had to be one of the most underwhelming IC champs of all time for his first run.
They learned the old school way, he learned the WWE way.I don't see Austin having any bitch in him in that interview. He was saying "I had a problem with Vince over business and here's Rock talking shit on tv out of the blue". In effect, Rock was going at Austin for Vince the same way Cena used to go at him, also for Vince.
You're right on Bret elevating Austin but not really on Rock. They had the big Mania matches but Austin and Rock didn't have long feuds that benefitted either of them on the main event stage. Austin elevated Rock when they were feuding for the IC title. Austing had longer, better feuds with Taker, Foley, and HHH than with Rock. Later he had the feuds with Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, and Chris Benoit.
Miss Tessmacher and Mickie James wrestling now. Gotdamn those some phat white bitches!
Rock
You don't come in much but when you do, you drop jewels.
Dave you can't be serious Rock vs HHH was second only to Austin vs Mcmahon in 98-99 and they were still going strong in 2000. His feud with Foley was legendary and the fact that they made halftime heat work was brilliant, honestly im trying to remember his feud with Foly and i can't. Rock going after Cena was not the same as Cena going after Rock because Austin quit like a bitch whereas The Rock was upfront about leaving to do movies. The truth is Austin really only had one year he can call his own and that's 98, Rock had surpassed him after that because Austin really wasn't much of a factor from then on.
Just wondering.The Road Warriors got inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame and it's safe to say that the Steiners will get in.Do you think that Demolition,The Rock & Roll Express or The Midnight Express will get in? I'm really curious about the last 2 and seeing exactly who would represent the Midnight Express.
I disagree about Austin not being much of a factor and also by the beginning of the century the neck issues really started to kick in.As far as the comparison about guys going after other guys the cases are the same in that the criticisms should never have taken place.
Austin was god like in 98 but 99-00-02 he was an afterthought, The reason why i don't have a problem with the criticism Rock HHH and others had with him was because of how he left. If he said he couldn't do it anymore because of his neck and knees then he would've been well in his right to retire, but to just leave because of the direction and not wanting to lose to Lesnar without the "Proper build-up" was just ridiculous. As for your other topic if they have Koko B Ware and Drew Carey can get in then why not Demolition? I mean they actually were entertaining and had one of the most memorable theme songs in wrestling history.
He was right in one respect.Lesnar should have beat him but with proper build up like the stuff that was going on with them before Lesnar's match with Goldberg.With good buildup that match would have brought in money for the WWE,Austin and Lesnar instead of doing things like WCW did with Hogan-Goldberg where they did the match on Nitro to get a ratings pop instead of waiting a few weeks and generating PPV buys.
True, but in 02 Austin wasn't a ratings draw anymore and back when they did the Hogan vs Goldberg match Hogan was still a draw. I think it did more for Lesnar working with Rock because he got put over huge and even had the SummerSlam crowd behind him.
Austin wasn't the ratings draw that he once was but a match with him and Lesnar would have still generated interest and buys.Beating Rock clean did put him over but if they had built him and Austin who wasn't wrestling regularly up properly they could have had to big PPV matches to get Lesnar over and generated 2 big paydays from it cause him beating Austin wouldn't have taken any interest away from him facing Rock.If anything, it would have gave some interest to people who didn't care about the match with Rock.
You misunderstand me. I mean Austin's feud with Rock wasn't as long or meaningful as his feuds with those other guys.
Rock going after Austin was exactly the same. Rock left WWF over business and Cena jumped in (most likely at Vince's behest).
Austin was always the Man when he was active, always. Rock was Savage or Warrior to his Hogan.
All of them should but it will be difficult getting the Midnight Express in because of the bad blood between Jim Cornette and the office. It wouldn't shock me if Vince reached out and I would hope Jimmy would do it for Dennis, Bobby, and Stan but even if he couldn't, I don't see him standing in the way if they accepted.
Frankly, Demolition should probably already be in. I hate how WWE has really forgotten about them.
Yep. Austin wasn't full time anymore at that point but they could have and should have built to that feud and it would have been huge.
And Steve Austin was never an afterthought, at least not after he beat Shawn Michaels.
Miss Tessmacher and Mickie James wrestling now. Gotdamn those some phat white bitches!
Wow, Austin only had one year?!?
I usually just read you guys posts at work when I'm bored and I usually don't say much but that has to go down in the H.O.F in the Pro Wrestling thread. Austin held that ship afloat during the entire "Attitude" Era (A era which I may add was his). Rock came up on Austin's back, so I really see no "bitch" in that statement he made, in all honesty it's some of the realest shit I've ever read. Austin and Rock were friends, Austin helped build dude career and dude gets on TV talking shit....any real man would get pissed. Question though...How can you knock SCSA for having a problem with Rock talking shit about him, but then you turn around and bash my dude Cena for calling Rock out and talking shit about him?? Seems a little hypocritical on your part.
Awesome links.
While we know the Demos were a ripoff, I think they earned their own spot in wrestling history. Since Ax was Bill Eadie, they started off as better workers than Hawk and Animal and WWF had so many teams they were able to show it. Then WWF did such a bad job of showing how important LOD was when they frst arrived, I think many WWF fans saw them as the ripoffs.
The way they do the HOF makes the question, "Does so and so belong?" a moot question. When Koko B Ware makes it, everybody should make it (nothing against Koko but did he ever win one significant match in the WWF? One?).
The way that the WWE does the Hall of Fame is ridiculous.Koko B. Ware is in but Jake "The Snake" Roberts isn't and neither are The Honky Tonk Man,Randy "Macho Man" Savage or Rick Rude.Or Arn Anderson,Tully Blanchard and the Four Horsemen.Considering that they were created as a ripoff of the Road Warriors Demolition should have gotten in after them but they should be in at this point.
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I think the thing with the H.O.F. is that they don't ever want to put too many recognizable names in there on the same year.
Most children watching have at least heard of Jake The Snake and Macho Man, so it won't be likely that they'll make it in the H.O.F. on the same year. They have to keep spacing it out.
The real question is why don't they put Scott Hall in there now before he dies. We all love Scott, but least be real, dude doesn't have to much longer.
Randy Savage will never be in the Hall of fame....If the rumours about him having an inappropriate relationship with a 14yr old Stephanie McMahon are true....
He's the only legend from the 80s/90s other than the Ultimate Warrior not to make at least one guest appearance.
He's the only legend from the 80s/90s other than the Ultimate Warrior not to make at least one guest appearance.
Randy Savage will never be in the Hall of fame....If the rumours about him having an inappropriate relationship with a 14yr old Stephanie McMahon are true....
He's the only legend from the 80s/90s other than the Ultimate Warrior not to make at least one guest appearance.
He's the only legend from the 80s/90s other than the Ultimate Warrior not to make at least one guest appearance.
what????? how did you hear about this?
Its been around for a while but this is the first link I could find.
http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2010/0419/487233/hulk-hogan/
Heard the same thing a few years back though I didn't hear a definite age on Stephanie.I think that he'll probably get in next year considering his death.
I think Vince will induct Randy in the Hall of Fame next year because at the end of the day, Vince will do what he thinks is good for the business. He knows people will think he is a douche if he doesn't. I would like to see Jake the Snake in there as well.
Wow, Austin only had one year?!?
Question though...How can you knock SCSA for having a problem with Rock talking shit about him, but then you turn around and bash my dude Cena for calling Rock out and talking shit about him?? Seems a little hypocritical on your part.
Because if Cena was going after Rock at the request of Vince then that's bullshit, because Vince was the one who pushed for Rock to get into Hollywood. I don't Vince realized how successful he would be and it bit him in the ass, Austin left because of a personal issue with the company and apologist try to say it was injuries.
Do you remember the year 2000? The Rock was the single biggest name in wrestling at that point.
Vince has always wanted Rock to come back and hoped Cena could work-shoot him back in. Vince wanted Rock in movies as a WWE performer, not so Rock would leave (though that was Vince's fault too).
Austin left because of personal issues but he retired because of injuries. He did come back but not as full time talent. But he wrestled enough to put Rock (finally) at Mania.
Savage was the top guy in 88 and the Warrior in 90. Austin missed the first quarter of 2000 with his injuries and they brought him back slowly but by the end of the year, Austin was the top guy again. He then won the Rumble for 01 and Mania over Rock.
The Stephanie rumor has never been confirmed and appears unlikely if Steph was really that young.
Savage and Jake are locks to get in but Jake is going to have to go a few years sober before WWE takes that kind of chance. They do not want to read a newspaper/TMZ headline in a couple years saying "WWE Hall of Famer Jake Roberts arrested
Proof hotshotting doesn't work (as if we needed more)
SUMMERSLAM BUYRATE WAY DOWN
by Mike Johnson @ 8:15 PM on 9/25/2011
WWE updated their Key Performance Indicators. The preliminary buyrate is only 301,000 buys, WAY below the 2010 buyrate. Based on the breakdown, the buyrate looks to be 174,000 in North America and 127.000 from International markets.
In 2010, the PPV drew 350,00 buys. In 2009, the PPV drew 369,000 buys.
SUMMERSLAM BUYRATE WAY DOWN
by Mike Johnson @ 8:15 PM on 9/25/2011
WWE updated their Key Performance Indicators. The preliminary buyrate is only 301,000 buys, WAY below the 2010 buyrate. Based on the breakdown, the buyrate looks to be 174,000 in North America and 127.000 from International markets.
In 2010, the PPV drew 350,00 buys. In 2009, the PPV drew 369,000 buys.
