The Real CHINA

MASTERBAKER

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[FLASH]http://www.liveleak.com/player.swf?token=326_1195669661[/FLASH]Short Documentary on the China we don't usually get to see
 
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That video doesn't show what is really going on in China. I would like to know if anyone besides myself buys from them maybe we could compare notes try and make some sense of it. Last year China had a ten-fold increase in BILLIONAIRES they went from less than 20 to over 100 that might double this year. On the other end poor people are extremely poor, so poor they make our ghettos look like vacation resorts. Then you have a growing middle class these people are the ones who support a global community, they are locked out of the big money but they see potential and they want a piece of it.
 
I just came back from a business trip there recently. The majority of chinese people Live VERY poverishly. While they are coming into a booming economic position. The VAST difference between the population's living classes are likely to tear the nation apart. There is little to NO middle class. Under 5% of the population has wealth and the rest lead EXTREMELY poor lives. They aren't running a good old US capitalistic standard, where everyone is free to make they're own. They're running a loose communist/dictatorship stacking chips among the gov't and leaving the people with no buying power. Its rediculous. The majority of china does make the us ghettos look like high society.
 
I just came back from a business trip there recently. The majority of chinese people Live VERY poverishly. While they are coming into a booming economic position. The VAST difference between the population's living classes are likely to tear the nation apart. There is little to NO middle class. Under 5% of the population has wealth and the rest lead EXTREMELY poor lives. They aren't running a good old US capitalistic standard, where everyone is free to make they're own. They're running a loose communist/dictatorship stacking chips among the gov't and leaving the people with no buying power. Its rediculous. The majority of china does make the us ghettos look like high society.


I used the term 'middle class' referring to those who have cars, an apartment, do you think there is a future for Black businesspeople in China. Or do you believe they are too prejudiced against America.
 
I just came back from a business trip there recently. The majority of chinese people Live VERY poverishly. While they are coming into a booming economic position. The VAST difference between the population's living classes are likely to tear the nation apart. There is little to NO middle class. Under 5% of the population has wealth and the rest lead EXTREMELY poor lives. They aren't running a good old US capitalistic standard, where everyone is free to make they're own. They're running a loose communist/dictatorship stacking chips among the gov't and leaving the people with no buying power. Its rediculous. The majority of china does make the us ghettos look like high society.
good point look at nyc for example chinatown, sunset park and many many other chinese communities here in nyc they ,are coming here to the u.s. legally and illeagally for a better life they don't talk about china but we are starting to see alot more of this type of stuff only with hidden video. more to come
 
I just came back from a business trip there recently. The majority of chinese people Live VERY poverishly. While they are coming into a booming economic position. The VAST difference between the population's living classes are likely to tear the nation apart. There is little to NO middle class. Under 5% of the population has wealth and the rest lead EXTREMELY poor lives. They aren't running a good old US capitalistic standard, where everyone is free to make they're own. They're running a loose communist/dictatorship stacking chips among the gov't and leaving the people with no buying power. Its rediculous. The majority of china does make the us ghettos look like high society.

Where in China did you go? While the rich-poor gap is incredible, how could you say there is no middle class at all? In the SEZ areas, there is a middle class, several of whom I know (go to school with some whose families are middle class). Pretty soon I might study abroad for a while, so I'll see firsthand if the "no middle class" thing is true or not.
 
This is the China that our corrupt governmet of the USA supports :smh:how come we dont hear about human rights violations from the U.N about China they are all in bed with each other. :angry:
 
This is what they are trying to do in america. We already have a small dictaorship its just gonna grow year after year. leave the poor to labor and really rich make all the money.
 
I used the term 'middle class' referring to those who have cars, an apartment, do you think there is a future for Black businesspeople in China. Or do you believe they are too prejudiced against America.

Apologies...a middle class does exist, but from what I've seen, it was greatly over shadowed by the poor majority. Except for maybe two places I had visited..which were Hong Kong, and Hangzhou. Hangzhou was a wealthy us standard city, for the most part. A couple hours from Shanghai In mainland china, it was the only city where I saw the majority of Chinese citizens with buying power, being middle-high class. Hong Kong of course is a very wealthy extremely international city, but is not of china really, or not an accurate representation for how the majority of the rest of China lives.

As far as Black businesspeople in China...There is alot of Black (African) business, and alot of American business. There is alot of tolerance for international people In China. In that aspect it is a very good place. In my experience, the vibe I found was, they're more interested in your money or commodity, then playing good old boys games like we do here.

Oneofmany- I travelled to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hanghzhou, Suzhou, and Hongkong.
 
Apologies...a middle class does exist, but from what I've seen, it was greatly over shadowed by the poor majority. Except for maybe two places I had visited..which were Hong Kong, and Hangzhou. Hangzhou was a wealthy us standard city, for the most part. A couple hours from Shanghai In mainland china, it was the only city where I saw the majority of Chinese citizens with buying power, being middle-high class. Hong Kong of course is a very wealthy extremely international city, but is not of china really, or not an accurate representation for how the majority of the rest of China lives.

As far as Black businesspeople in China...There is alot of Black (African) business, and alot of American business. There is alot of tolerance for international people In China. In that aspect it is a very good place. In my experience, the vibe I found was, they're more interested in your money or commodity, then playing good old boys games like we do here.

Oneofmany- I travelled to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hanghzhou, Suzhou, and Hongkong.

I appreciate what you are saying. Here's a part of a message I got from people I do business with in China. Notice the thinly vieled animosity they have for us. Even though I've made him rich by Chinese standards.

there as 1pcs clothes is made in China among 3 pieces clothes made in the world, as you know US dollars is tanking more and more, so it is real time to make money right now...we can not let go of this gold time

I am a Black Man so I understand the comtempt they must have for us. They were a British colony for 100yrs, they got Hong Kong back a few years ago and they still don't have Tiwan, but as a American black man trying to make another mil or two I wonder if this is worth the effort. Holla at me
 
By doing business with them :hmm:!!!
hmmmm, we could bring up pakistan also... we are partners in the war on terrorism but look at what masharuf is doing to his people. loocking up lawyers etc. also look at suadia arabia. good ponit panameno718 no dis. queex
 
By doing business with them :hmm:!!!

MASTERBAKER said:
hmmmm, we could bring up pakistan also... we are partners in the war on terrorism but look at what masharuf is doing to his people. loocking up lawyers etc. also look at suadia arabia. good ponit panameno718 no dis. queex
Wow:eek: I didn't know that "trading with" a nation constitutes "Support of" a nation.

I know that China seeks the complete takeover of the Taiwanese. Yet, "China's annual trade with Taiwan grew 18% to $107.8bn (£54.8bn) last year, Chinese government figures show. China imported $87bn worth of goods from Taiwan, up 16.6% on the year before, while Taiwanese firms invested $2.14bn on the mainland." [1] Somebody better hurry up and tell the Taiwanese that they are supporting the Chinese, their sworn enemy.

Oh Yeah, while you're texting the Taiwanese, perhaps you should text Africa, as well. "Trade between China and African nations jumped 39% to $32.17bn (£18bn) in the first 10 months of last year. Representing a record high, analysts said the surge was fuelled by China's increased imports of African oil, most notably from Sudan. Africa is also buying more Chinese-made goods, the figures show." [2] So, please advise the African nations that they are supporting human rights violators by trading with China. Perhaps those African nations don't see bargain-exchange (trade) as being the same thing as "support for", you think ??? :smh:

Or, maybe you want to re-think that definition of "support" ??

QueEx






[1] China-Taiwan trade ties increase
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6269697.stm

[2] China-Africa trade jumps by 39%
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4587374.stm
 
Wow:eek: I didn't know that "trading with" a nation constitutes "Support of" a nation.

I know that China seeks the complete takeover of the Taiwanese. Yet, "China's annual trade with Taiwan grew 18% to $107.8bn (£54.8bn) last year, Chinese government figures show. China imported $87bn worth of goods from Taiwan, up 16.6% on the year before, while Taiwanese firms invested $2.14bn on the mainland." [1] Somebody better hurry up and tell the Taiwanese that they are supporting the Chinese, their sworn enemy.

Oh Yeah, while you're texting the Taiwanese, perhaps you should text Africa, as well. "Trade between China and African nations jumped 39% to $32.17bn (£18bn) in the first 10 months of last year. Representing a record high, analysts said the surge was fuelled by China's increased imports of African oil, most notably from Sudan. Africa is also buying more Chinese-made goods, the figures show." [2] So, please advise the African nations that they are supporting human rights violators by trading with China. Perhaps those African nations don't see bargain-exchange (trade) as being the same thing as "support for", you think ??? :smh:

Or, maybe you want to re-think that definition of "support" ??

QueEx






[1] China-Taiwan trade ties increase
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6269697.stm

[2] China-Africa trade jumps by 39%
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4587374.stm
good sources
 
Key Points

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Critics do not want U.S. economic interests to overshadow human rights concerns.
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MFN treatment and support for China's petition to join GATT/WTO are important elements of a comprehensive engagement policy.
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U.S. businesses are eager to increase participation in what the Commerce Department describes as the world's largest emerging market.

Since the initial warming of U.S.-China relations in the early 1970s, policymakers have had difficulty balancing conflicting U.S. policy concerns in the Peoples’ Republic of China (PRC). From Nixon to Clinton, presidents have had to reconcile security and human rights concerns with the corporate desire for expanded economic relations between the two countries.

In 1989 the Tiananmen Square Massacre drew public attention to the inconsistent, unintegrated character of U.S.-China policy. A wave of public indignation with China’s repressive practices forced the Bush administration to adopt a sterner posture in regard to human rights violations and to apply certain unilateral sanctions. Weapons exports to China were prohibited, nuclear energy cooperation ceased, export licenses for crime-control equipment were withheld, and Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) and Trade Development Agency (TDA) business assistance programs in China were legislatively suspended. Many academic and cultural exchange programs were also canceled.

These measures have not satisfied some critics of China’s human rights practices, who contend that the U.S. should apply even more rigid trade restrictions against China. Specifically, critics insist that the U.S. government not renew China’s Most Favored Nation (MFN) status. Since 1980 China has enjoyed MFN status, meaning that its exports to the U.S. fall under the most common U.S. tariff schedule. All signatory nations of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and members of the World Trade Organization (WTO) have MFN status. The only nations that do not benefit from MFN treatment are Afghanistan, Cuba, Kampuchea, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam.

MFN status for China is conferred through an annual review process. Some human rights advocates argue that MFN standing should be linked to improvements in China’s human and labor rights practices—a policy that has been rejected by the Clinton administration. Rather than denying China normal MFN trading status because of human rights violations, the Clinton administration has opted for a policy of “comprehensive engagement,” which holds that long-term U.S. goals such as human rights improvement are more likely to be achieved through sustained contact and open trading than by further isolating China.

Besides conferring MFN status, the U.S. also supports China’s petition to join the WTO. This support is contingent on China’s continuing willingness to negotiate broader market access and to respect the intellectual property rights of U.S. firms. U.S. traders and investors are eager to expand their economic participation in the country the Commerce Department describes as the world’s largest emerging market. In 1995 U.S. firms had investments in 3,474 different projects in China, many of which concern export-oriented production using low-paid, oppressed Chinese labor that is denied the right to form independent labor unions. After Hong Kong, the U.S. is the second largest source of contracted foreign direct investment for China; China is the second largest host country in the world, following the U.S., for foreign direct investment (see In Focus: Foreign Investment in the U.S.).

Although China’s market is immense and expanding, at least in the short and medium terms it is likely that China will continue to enjoy large trade surpluses with the U.S. Trends indicate that the U.S. trade deficit with China may soon surpass the deficit with Japan. Most U.S. transnational corporations (TNCs), many of whom are investing directly in China, support current U.S. trade policy. Yet other elements of the U.S. business community that are affected adversely by Chinese exports, in particular small domestic businesses, have joined with human rights critics to oppose the annual renewal of China’s MFN status.

Problems with Current U.S. Policy
Key Problems

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Neither existing sanctions nor comprehensive engagement has resulted in human rights improvements.
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Measures adopted following Tiananmen Square are limited and in some cases not fully implemented.
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Despite its failure to respect human rights, China is the largest recipient of World Bank funds.

Under pressure to integrate human rights concerns more closely into overall U.S.-China policy, Washington has adopted a number of sanctions, including restrictions on bilateral and multilateral aid. Rather than conditioning trade relations on human rights improvements, the Clinton administration has argued that increased economic integration of China into the world market is the preferable and more effective way of advancing human rights (see In Focus: Protecting Human Rights).

Yet Chinese human rights practices, including respect for political and labor rights, continue to fall well below internationally accepted standards. Neither the existing U.S. sanctions nor the policy of comprehensive engagement has resulted in human rights improvements.

The U.S. government does have a number of measures in place designed to induce human rights reforms in China. But these are limited and in some cases not fully implemented. Although OPIC and Trade Development Agency programs were suspended after the Tiananmen Square Massacre, other U.S. agencies remain engaged in China, thereby sending China mixed signals about the seriousness of U.S. human rights concerns. Eximbank, which provides loan guarantees for U.S. exports, has expanded its commitments to China trade since 1989. The bank has even given preliminary approval to a plan by Westinghouse to sell nuclear energy technology to a Chinese state enterprise that has sold nuclear-weapons related technology to Pakistan and Iran.

Following the 1989 massacre. the U.S. and other industrial nations placed a moratorium on new World Bank lending to China. In February 1990 U.S. voting policy with respect to World Bank lending relaxed when the U.S. resolved to approve new loans to China if they were directed at meeting “basic human needs.” China is the largest recipient of World Bank loans.

The U.S. government has not used its extensive influence at the World Bank to escalate international pressure on China to improve its human rights practices. In the case of neighboring Myanmar (Burma), where U.S. economic interests are comparatively insignificant, the United States endorses a ban on all World Bank lending. In China, however, where human rights violations are no less severe, Washington has not obstructed the rapid rise of bank lending. Occasionally, the U.S. casts a “no” vote on an infrastructure project in accordance with its commitment to support only basic needs projects. More often, the U.S. simply abstains, thereby allowing projects to proceed.

Furthering the inconsistency, the U.S. has actively opposed the rise in China funding by the Asian Development Bank, in which it is the second largest shareholder. Corporate interest in China trade and investment help explain the U.S. government’s reluctance to support a ban on multilateral lending to China. U.S. corporations are the top suppliers for World Bank projects in China.

After its 1994 delinkage of human rights issues from China’s MFN status, the Clinton administration announced the creation of a special human rights program that included promises of increased Radio Free Asia broadcasts to China, new support for NGOs working in China, and the formulation of a corporate code of conduct for companies doing business in China. The program, which has only been partially implemented, exerts little pressure on China and should not be regarded as an effective substitute for a tougher U.S. stance on human rights violations. The voluntary and unspecific character of the code of corporate conduct that the Commerce Department formulated is typical of U.S. unwillingness to endanger trade and investment in China. In the end, rather than making the code more China-specific, Commerce announced that the code was a loose and nonbinding list of suggestions for TNCs (see In Focus: Controlling Transnational Corporations).

Trade and investment concerns have knocked U.S.-China policy out of balance. Despite expressions of concern for human rights conditions, the U.S. government has allowed narrow economic interests, particularly those of corporate investors, to guide its China policy. Although the U.S. government has let it be known that human rights improvements would be welcome, it has been unwilling to jeopardize U.S. economic relations by adopting stricter human rights conditionality on aid and trade.

Toward a New Foreign Policy
Key Recommendations

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U.S. human rights policies should be uniformly applied.
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Multilateral responses to human rights practices are preferable to unilateral actions.
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More attention to human rights would help balance U.S.-China policy.

The U.S. government needs to put its U.S.-China policy in balance by giving labor and human rights concerns more attention. At the same time, however, the delicate matrix of U.S.-China relations requires that special care must be taken to select the most appropriate policy tools.

The Lawyers Committee for Human Rights offers four general principles that should guide U.S. policy toward human rights and would be helpful in establishing a new U.S.-China policy:

1.
U.S. national interests are served by giving human rights a higher priority in the U.S. foreign policy process.
2.
U.S. human rights policy should be based on internationally recognized laws and norms.
3.
The credibility of any human rights policy stems from its uniform application.
4.
Cooperative, international approaches to human rights problems are preferable to strictly unilateral actions.

The principles of uniform application and the preferability of multilateral approaches are especially relevant to selecting the most appropriate and effective measures to promote human rights in China. With respect to trade, a key question is whether the U.S. should attach human rights conditions to the continuation of normal trading relations with China.

The outright denial of MFN status and opposition to China’s access to the WTO because of its human rights record would render U.S. human rights policy more inconsistent than it already is. The MFN standing of other nations is not subject to annual human rights review. It is true that “comprehensive engagement” has not proven effective, but there is no reason to believe that by isolating China the U.S. could positively influence Chinese human rights practices. To create a more balanced U.S.-China policy, the U.S. government should strive to identify policy mechanisms that are assertive but not unilaterally aggressive.

More appropriate than MFN termination are policy measures associated with preferential trading agreements (where special trading privileges going beyond MFN status are granted) and with economic assistance.

An across-the-board U.S. termination of bilateral financial assistance to China and support only for multilateral loans that help satisfy basic human needs would result in increased pressure on China to improve its human rights practices. Given the deepening Chinese dependence on the world market and on U.S. investment and trade, it is unlikely that China would react to the aid ban by unilaterally ending trade and investment with the U.S. and other involved nations.

Specifically, we recommend the following actions:

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The U.S. should not single out China, but instead condition all its bilateral and multilateral trade and investment programs on respect for internationally recognized labor and human rights.
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China's application for WTO membership underscores the need for international agreements that link trade privileges with respect for basic human rights. Just as environmental protection and trade need to be linked, so do trade and internationally recognized labor and human rights. As a global leader, the U.S. should use its influence to urge that human rights conditions be included in international trade and investment agreements such as GATT.
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Section 701 of the Foreign Financial Assistance Act, which mandates the U.S. government to advance international human rights through its voting power in international financial institutions, should be enforced. Until there are significant human rights improvements, the U.S. should oppose all multilateral lending (except for basic humanitarian aid) to all human rights violators.
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Washington should make its bilateral aid policy more consistent by blocking all further Eximbank lending and by ending all nonhumanitarian programs that benefit China.
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The U.S. should make greater use of its senior level contacts with the Chinese government to raise pressing human rights concerns.
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The U.S. should encourage other nations to take a firmer stance toward human rights violations in China and increase its own diplomatic efforts to raise these issues in such international forums as the Human Rights Commission and the International Labor Organization.
 
JMO but I think the WTO need more African-American influence. I really think we have a common sense you don't find anywhere else. If you notice in a lot of the recent high profile court cases Black attorneys were used, Colin Powell brought a sense of stablity to the Bush admin. From Kofi Annan, Bishop Tutu, Condi, Oprah, Mandela it just seems like the Black perspective makes the world a better place. As that applies to China, we need to see the country for what it is, they promise the potential of a booming market but they don't let Americans in, the goods are getting worse each year, they don't support our national security concerns and they are becoming more antagonistic militarily. Common sense says we should be distancing ourselves from them, looking to South America to do what they do for us now. From what I see Colombia is a better trade partner even though they don't have the natural resources or population China has.
 
China "underground church which increases rapidly"

[FLASH]http://www.liveleak.com/player.swf?token=20a_1195913530[/FLASH]China It is "religious freedom...."
 
What I said was

JMO but I think the WTO need more African-American influence. I really think we have a common sense you don't find anywhere else.

I went on to say

From Kofi Annan, Bishop Tutu, Condi, Oprah, Mandela it just seems like the Black perspective makes the world a better place.
 
Don't get it twisted guys. These people are offered handsome amounts to move and live else where. It is only when they don't accept after countless offers that the government takes action. Its a little something called Eminent domain...yes we do that here in the US as well. Can't always believe the media. You guys should be smart enough to know that.
 
China has some very real problems and they will get worse as the govt tries to implement capitalistic reforms but keep a communist government eventually a new strongman will emerge and when he does thats ballgame. China has to assume world leadership now because we have been humbled in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have lost our position as leader but China is not ready to lead. What happens next is anybody's guess.
 
Re: Ghost Cities: China following the Dubai/Las Vegas model

The modern version of the New Deal?

Watching that reminded me of the unnecessary people hired during that era to dig holes & fill them back up.

Since I didn't remember much... I did a Google search on it and found this quote related to economic stimulus and the onus that every government has during a recession to keep funds flowing.


"The question is how to balance the short term 'hole digging' approach with investments which may not provide so much bang for the buck in the short term, but are good for long-term productivity," said Eswar Prasad, Senior Professor of Trade Policy at Cornell University. "Everyone, from China to the United States is grappling for that balance."


This Chinese approach might look strange now, but it might just pay off for them in the future.
 
Re: Ghost Cities: China following the Dubai/Las Vegas model

The modern version of the New Deal?

Watching that reminded me of the unnecessary people hired during that era to dig holes & fill them back up.

Since I didn't remember much... I did a Google search on it and found this quote related to economic stimulus and the onus that every government has during a recession to keep funds flowing.


"The question is how to balance the short term 'hole digging' approach with investments which may not provide so much bang for the buck in the short term, but are good for long-term productivity," said Eswar Prasad, Senior Professor of Trade Policy at Cornell University. "Everyone, from China to the United States is grappling for that balance."


This Chinese approach might look strange now, but it might just pay off for them in the future.

It looks like the politicians still aren't brave enough to be truthful with people, whether in the United States, Europe, or China.

When the government interferes in the economy, it always makes things worse. Instead of letting the economy get rid of the waste, inefficiency, and misallocation of resources, it imposes its agenda. This prevents the marketplace from finding the most efficient use of land, labor, and materials.

In 1929, at the start of the Great Depression, the unemployment rate was 2.6%.

After 10 years of stimulus, job works programs, subsidies, and price controls, in 1939, the unemployment rate was 18%.

Soviet Russia was notorious for its stimulus plans in military spending and heavy manufacturing, despite the market demand for consumer goods, food, and light manufacturing. They could build nuclear submarines, jet fighters, and rockets but couldn't provide enough bread, radios, or nylon stockings.

I'm loathe to mention this, but Hitler himself knew that job works programs were a fantasy of government meddling. It's surprising that he knew (before FDR, Stalin, and China) that stimulus packages and job works programs lead to inflation, increased unemployment, and recession. Hitler did everything he could to avoid job works programs and only instituted one in the beginning because he knew people believed in that stuff and he needed their support.

The government cannot create jobs (without destroying more jobs).
The government cannot create growth (without causing recession).
The government cannot create prosperity (without increasing poverty).
 
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Re: Ghost Cities: China following the Dubai/Las Vegas model

When the government interferes in the economy, it always makes things worse. Instead of letting the economy get rid of the waste, inefficiency, and misallocation of resources, it imposes its agenda. This prevents the marketplace from finding the most efficient use of land, labor, and materials.

Silly Me~ How could I forget ECON 101 so soon?

Too bad it seems that human nature will always look to Big Brother to be the rock in cases of financial meltdown without giving one thought to the long-term economic good.

Dah-Well!
 
City on Steroids (Video)

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:hmm:
 
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