The Proper Role of Churches in America

[Costanza]

This is a spin off of the thread on Social Justice:

The other night, I did something I've never done before, an unfortunate consequence of a severe pussy drought... I watched a full episode of FOX's Glenn Beck show.

I don't want this thread to be about him, though, so please spare me any condemnations for watching or paying attention to FOX News (which I very seldom do).

I think the subject discussed here is actually very interesting, particularly this comment:

"Make sure your church puts God first and politics and government last."​

This is how most Americans feel about the role churches should play in society. (It is also historically counter to what black churches have evolved to do in this country.)

That helps (partially) to explain the atmosphere in which Jeremiah Wright became-- and still is-- a pariah.

And the basic sentiment cuts across party lines. You can see the impact of disillusionment with Bush's use of religious groups on Republicans looking at the shift between 2004 and 2008:

A lot of what is in these videos is nonsensical and seems a lot like what it would look like if Sirwoodz had a TV show but if you can get past that, it is a very interesting and important subject (because a lot of this does represent the views of the majority of people in this country):




The whole notion of God-given rights is a commonly accepted but funny one to me.

What rights does God give in the Bible?

It seems clear, if you actually look at the world we live in, that PEOPLE force rights into existence and governments recognize them.

God is not a part of the equation, IMO.


How do you feel about what Reverend Jim Wallis says about redistribution of wealth and the Bible?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm particularly interested in what people who actually go to church think about this, though everyone is welcome to contribute.

Main board version of thread

 

[nittie]

Those guys never explain how they got the right to own more shit than everyone else. Wealth comes from the earth, the earth belongs to everyone, their form of wealth comes from a artifical distribution system. Which is pure socialism because they keep in concentrated in the top 5% of the population.

 

[Costanza]

Those guys never explain how they got the right to own more shit than everyone else. Wealth comes from the earth, the earth belongs to everyone, their form of wealth comes from a artifical distribution system. Which is pure socialism because they keep in concentrated in the top 5% of the population.

Yeah... I tuned into FOX yesterday because they has some stories on Jeremiah Wright, who I find to be an interesting figure... I saw both Laura Ingraham (guest-hosting O'Reilly's show) and Sean Hannity smear him as a proponent of "social justice"... If they manage to succeed in turning that into a bad word the way they have "liberal" and words like that, the game is over.

 

[nittie]

They are on tv so the have the power of persuasion. Their opinions becomes someone else's reality. Really it's all about power and maybe energy. No one can force anyone to do anything they can only persuade. That's why it's not a good idea to mix God with religion because they are two entirely different things. Religion is a tool of the government, it's used to instill values and beliefs in people. God on the other hand is everything. The air we breath is God, even though anglos re-named it air or oxygen it's really the breath of life we can't live a minute without it. Our will cannot be broken if we know God is real, that's why the mightest army in history cannot defeat a country like Iraq, the people's will or God was against it.

 

[Costanza]

They are on tv so the have the power of persuasion. Their opinions becomes someone else's reality. Really it's all about power and maybe energy. No one can force anyone to do anything they can only persuade. That's why it's not a good idea to mix God with religion because they are two entirely different things. Religion is a tool of the government, it's used to instill values and beliefs in people. God on the other hand is everything. The air we breath is God, even though anglos re-named it air or oxygen it's really the breath of life we can't live a minute without it. Our will cannot be broken if we know God is real, that's why the mightest army in history cannot defeat a country like Iraq, the people's will or God was against it.

I think the resistance in Iraq is more attributable to homefield advantage and national pride and unwillingness to submit to a foreign power than anything having to do with religion.

Didn't the Indians believe in a God or gods??? Or was that just a surface belief and the millions of natives who perished

You seem to be making a false distinction between God and religion, also-- You're basically saying most religious understanding is false but your religious understanding isn't even religious understanding but God. Transcendentalism is a type of religious understanding that is just less dogmatic and rules-driven but it is far from objective reality.

 

[Blu Diablo]

This just speaks to the duality on which this country was founded. You had a group of people initially trying to escape religious persecution in their homeland, where the church and the state were the same entity. They created a country that supposedly had a separation of church and state, but could that be possible if they were fleeing religious persecution? Sounds like they simply moved their church to a different place and set up shop with a new government.

What also has to be taken into consideration is the fact that the church has, throughout the history in this country, always served a dual role as the community meeting place as well as house of worship.

Church and state has never been separate here, they have always been intertwined.

 

[nittie]

I think the resistance in Iraq is more attributable to homefield advantage and national pride and unwillingness to submit to a foreign power than anything having to do with religion.

Didn't the Indians believe in a God or gods??? Or was that just a surface belief and the millions of natives who perished

You seem to be making a false distinction between God and religion, also-- You're basically saying most religious understanding is false but your religious understanding isn't even religious understanding but God. Transcendentalism is a type of religious understanding that is just less dogmatic and rules-driven but it is far from objective reality.

If the resistance in Iraq is attributable to national pride and unwillingness to submit to a foreign power wouldn't that be the willpower I describe as God.

Indians probably had a better understanding of God than the Anglos who killed them and took their land. They seem to understand the totality of it all but today we see the indigenious people of this land returning to the majority. We may call them mexicans, latinos, etc but they are taking back this country without military warfare, it is literally a case of Nature or God correcting itself.


What I'm saying is religion and God are two separate things. Religion is a way to instill values in people so they can be controlled or at least make them predictable. Take racism for example, in the Black church we are taught to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, the white church is the pulpit for segregation, white pride, the catholic church commissioned slavery. One entity, two different religions and two different behavior patterns. But when you look at where does thought orginate it began with God so religion and God are two differnet things.

 

[desideratum]

If the resistance in Iraq is attributable to national pride and unwillingness to submit to a foreign power wouldn't that be the willpower I describe as God.

Indians probably had a better understanding of God than the Anglos who killed them and took their land. They seem to understand the totality of it all but today we see the indigenious people of this land returning to the majority. We may call them mexicans, latinos, etc but they are taking back this country without military warfare, it is literally a case of Nature or God correcting itself.


What I'm saying is religion and God are two separate things. Religion is a way to instill values in people so they can be controlled or at least make them predictable. Take racism for example, in the Black church we are taught to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, the white church is the pulpit for segregation, white pride, the catholic church commissioned slavery. One entity, two different religions and two different behavior patterns. But when you look at where does thought orginate it began with God so religion and God are two differnet things.

The black church and white church...the white church a pulpit for segregation and white pride? What are you learning at your church or who is teaching you this visceral hatred? I suggest you find a different church, one that preaches the Word alone. Maybe you should open your Bible and read it yourself rather than letting others tell you what is in it, maybe you should start with the Book of John vs 1.

If the church is true to the Gospel and teaching the written Word only (rather than having political events or worship services for campaigning politicians or those who have been murdered for social justice) then there is no difference in the color of those attending the worship service. If the intent of those attending the black or white church is praising and worshiping Jesus Christ, spreading the Gospel, witnessing to non believers so they may be spared eternal separation from God when they die, then their color is inconsequential...see Galatians 3:28.

The only thing that matters is what happens to us when we draw our last breath. At that point skin color will be irrelevant. The only thing that will matter is whether we have repented and accepted Jesus, as that is only thing one needs to do be saved, according to the Gospel.

 

[nittie]

The black church and white church...the white church a pulpit for segregation and white pride? What are you learning at your church or who is teaching you this visceral hatred? I suggest you find a different church, one that preaches the Word alone. Maybe you should open your Bible and read it yourself rather than letting others tell you what is in it, maybe you should start with the Book of John vs 1.

If the church is true to the Gospel and teaching the written Word only (rather than having political events or worship services for campaigning politicians or those who have been murdered for social justice) then there is no difference in the color of those attending the worship service. If the intent of those attending the black or white church is praising and worshiping Jesus Christ, spreading the Gospel, witnessing to non believers so they may be spared eternal separation from God when they die, then their color is inconsequential...see Galatians 3:28.

The only thing that matters is what happens to us when we draw our last breath. At that point skin color will be irrelevant. The only thing that will matter is whether we have repented and accepted Jesus, as that is only thing one needs to do be saved, according to the Gospel.

That swooshing sound you hear is the point going over your head. I been saying all along that God and religion are two different things, church is the last place to look for God and even though the Bible is based on truth it's been edited so much it's hard to believe. As far as the differences in black and white churches there's a thread on the board now about white christian militas lol, plotting to overthrow the govt, cuse me for laughing but those people crack me up lol. Anyway that is not taught in even the most radical black church.

 

[desideratum]

Nittie,

How has the Bible been edited? How has the KJV been edited?

Who called this militia a "white christian militia"? It was the news outlets. As I pointed out, they were not Christian but they were a militia.

 

[nittie]

Nittie,

How has the Bible been edited? How has the KJV been edited?

Who called this militia a "white christian militia"? It was the news outlets. As I pointed out, they were not Christian but they were a militia.

The King James Edition of the Bible is a edited version of the original Bible which is a version of the Torah and so on and so forth. Like I said the Bible is based on truth the question for me anyway is what is the truth.

It's not about black and white churches. It's about how a single entity. the church, can preach different religions to different audiences and get predetermined reactions.

for instance it's been said that

"There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come."
-Victor Hugo

most people think of a idea as a spark of genius or inspiration but the clinical definition is

i·de·a
Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity

So what people want or need already exists in their life it is just a matter of recognizing it. But if the church clouds people's minds with misconceptions or lies they will never know or reach their potential or be a threat to the status quo. Thats why we have organized religion, to control the masses.

 

[Megazell]

Interesting topic.

IMO, if the church - be it Black, Asian, Hispanic, White...whatever is not doing positive and progressive works in the community then I think it's role is toxic as whole in it's relationship to the overall society.

I use to be in a religion when I was younger. As I got older, I began to do a lot of reading, reflection and questioning about 'What is right and wrong?' - Which is fundamental of all religions.

Yes, I know that religion is a system of control but I am talking about it's core concepts and ideals.

Should politics be outside of the church? I don't know how anyone can actually cut politics out of it when it's a intergral part of it.

As for 'putting God first'...What better way to put God first then to go out and help improve the community the church resides in.

I've been to Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Presbyterian, Mormons, Jewish, Amish and many more places of worship. The most powerful example I have seen came from the churches that had a strong tie to their community...not just as a church but as volunteer street/park cleaners, free education program services, mediation, and general care takers of their neighborhoods...even for those that were non-believers. As a cliche, these churches were usually shunned by their orthodox hierarchy.

Sadly, over the years I have seen that generation whom held those ideals pass on with only so little 'paying it forward.'

What's right is to help out your fellow man in a positive and progressive way.

True churches are dying. God was never there. IMO.

 

[Costanza]

This just speaks to the duality on which this country was founded. You had a group of people initially trying to escape religious persecution in their homeland, where the church and the state were the same entity. They created a country that supposedly had a separation of church and state, but could that be possible if they were fleeing religious persecution? Sounds like they simply moved their church to a different place and set up shop with a new government.

I'm not sure what this means. I don't see a contradiction between fleeing religious persecution and then separating church and state.

Which is far from what the Founders did or meant to do-- the idea comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote well after the Revolution ended and the Constitution had been drawn up and wasn't recognized as a legal principle until the country was about 100 years old, but that's a digression.

What also has to be taken into consideration is the fact that the church has, throughout the history in this country, always served a dual role as the community meeting place as well as house of worship.

Church and state has never been separate here, they have always been intertwined.

This is very true and it's what makes the idea of churches staying out of politics seem so simplistic to me. There has always been that dual function, particularly within the black church.

 

[Costanza]

If the resistance in Iraq is attributable to national pride and unwillingness to submit to a foreign power wouldn't that be the willpower I describe as God.

How?????? Couldn't I ascribe any emotion to being God by that logic, such as a six-year-old throwing a tantrum in the supermarket?

Indians probably had a better understanding of God than the Anglos who killed them and took their land. They seem to understand the totality of it all but today we see the indigenious people of this land returning to the majority. We may call them mexicans, latinos, etc but they are taking back this country without military warfare, it is literally a case of Nature or God correcting itself.

How do you know so much about God? The way you use such certainty in describing God's nature-- especially with regard for tribes of people-- seems very influenced by the religion you so strongly denounce.

Indigenous? I thought they crossed the Bering Strait from Eurasia.

People have a strong urge in recent times to appropriate religious concepts while denouncing the doctrines but claiming religion had no influence over the conceptions which they advance. Most of these people call themselves spiritual-- they don't want to defend religion but they haven't completely divested themselves of it, either.

What I'm saying is religion and God are two separate things. Religion is a way to instill values in people so they can be controlled or at least make them predictable. Take racism for example, in the Black church we are taught to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, the white church is the pulpit for segregation, white pride, the catholic church commissioned slavery. One entity, two different religions and two different behavior patterns. But when you look at where does thought orginate it began with God so religion and God are two differnet things.

This seriously makes no sense to me.

What you seem to deride the black church for representing seems synonymous with the values of Christ as represented in the Bible. "Turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" are not inventions of the black church.

Also, every white church is not a proponent of white pride. Religion is often an expression of cultural values-- i.e. "God Bless America," a common refrain more nationalistic than religious. But it is possible to have religion separate from that and you seem to paint with far too broad a brush. To cynically dismiss religion as "a way to instill values in people" fails to account for all the sincere believers out there who see it as a way of getting closer to God.

 

[Costanza]

The black church and white church...the white church a pulpit for segregation and white pride? What are you learning at your church or who is teaching you this visceral hatred? I suggest you find a different church, one that preaches the Word alone. Maybe you should open your Bible and read it yourself rather than letting others tell you what is in it, maybe you should start with the Book of John vs 1.

If the church is true to the Gospel and teaching the written Word only (rather than having political events or worship services for campaigning politicians or those who have been murdered for social justice) then there is no difference in the color of those attending the worship service. If the intent of those attending the black or white church is praising and worshiping Jesus Christ, spreading the Gospel, witnessing to non believers so they may be spared eternal separation from God when they die, then their color is inconsequential...see Galatians 3:28.

The only thing that matters is what happens to us when we draw our last breath. At that point skin color will be irrelevant. The only thing that will matter is whether we have repented and accepted Jesus, as that is only thing one needs to do be saved, according to the Gospel.

"The only thing that matters is what happens to us when we draw our last breath."

So you don't care what happens in this world at all?

A church would not be at all negligent to do nothing to prevent evil in this world? Slavery, the holocaust, child sex rings... None of that is of any consequence, as long as the people accept Jesus before they die?

 

[Costanza]

Interesting topic.

IMO, if the church - be it Black, Asian, Hispanic, White...whatever is not doing positive and progressive works in the community then I think it's role is toxic as whole in it's relationship to the overall society.

I use to be in a religion when I was younger. As I got older, I began to do a lot of reading, reflection and questioning about 'What is right and wrong?' - Which is fundamental of all religions.

...

As for 'putting God first'...What better way to put God first then to go out and help improve the community the church resides in.

I've been to Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Presbyterian, Mormons, Jewish, Amish and many more places of worship. The most powerful example I have seen came from the churches that had a strong tie to their community...not just as a church but as volunteer street/park cleaners, free education program services, mediation, and general care takers of their neighborhoods...even for those that were non-believers. As a cliche, these churches were usually shunned by their orthodox hierarchy.

I totally agree with you.

There is a real divide as to which "world" matters-- the "temporal world" or the "spiritual world."

I am very happy desideratum chose to participate in this thread because he has given us the example of someone who believes that spiritual matters are all-important and everything else is a distraction.

My question to that is... What if you're wrong? I know most won't even entertain the thought but you pretty much have to block it out of your mind to feel confident in saying "The observable world which I am a part of is of no importance and the spiritual world which I believe in is all that matters."

What if you're wrong??? Don't you see an immense tragedy in that?

 

[Megazell]

I totally agree with you.

There is a real divide as to which "world" matters-- the "temporal world" or the "spiritual world."

I am very happy desideratum chose to participate in this thread because he has given us the example of someone who believes that spiritual matters are all-important and everything else is a distraction.

My question to that is... What if you're wrong? I know most won't even entertain the thought but you pretty much have to block it out of your mind to feel confident in saying "The observable world which I am a part of is of no importance and the spiritual world which I believe in is all that matters."

What if you're wrong??? Don't you see an immense tragedy in that?

I could never go that route, personally. I know your question is geared toward someone else. Part of the reason I walked away from religion/church is because the communities I grew up in were dying and the 'new' churches were doing nothing about it.

I made some plans years ago...they worked and I am in a better place financially because of it. I felt compelled to give back to my community...now I won't give them $ but I do give them my time as a volunteer fatherhood mediator and working with runaways/foster care children. I'm no saint. I'm just a dude that can assist...which I think every person can do...especially if they are in 'communion' with 'God.'

A lot of ppl know me in my community...many of them practice some religion or another...when ever they invite me to their religious services...I tell them like this...'I will go if you agree to go with me to the Saratoga Rape Crisis program where we can do some volunteer work.' I do all kinds of volunteer with my family on Sundays. Nine times out of 10...they straight say they can't do that for whatever reason but give me their blessings...The programs/people of your community need more then your blessings.

 

[QueEx]

What also has to be taken into consideration is the fact that the church has, throughout the history in this country, always served a dual role as the community meeting place as well as house of worship.

Church and state has never been separate here, they have always been intertwined.

This is very true and it's what makes the idea of churches staying out of politics seem so simplistic to me. There has always been that dual function, particularly within the black church.

A man is really his baggage (his system of beliefs and experiences), and his baggage travels with him. He may attempt to temper it, limit it or enhance its affect upon him and his surroundings, but rather basically, he is what he is (his collective beliefs and experiences).

In that sense, if a person be religious (whatever that term may mean), he will tend to make decisions, based upon that baggage. If a person be a-religious, he will tend to make decisions based upon that baggage whether good, bad or indifferent. Hence, religion and conversely, a lack thereof, co-exist in our state of nature (our lives, our interactions and our governments) - - AND to the extent that persons of religious conviction stand in a position to make government decisions (either through their votes, i.e., as congressmen, state legislators, city councilmen -- OR -- as administrators, i.e., zoning officials, license regulators, etc.), religion cannot be extracted from "politics" and "politics"cannot be completely extracted from religion.

A slightly different concept, however, is separation of church and state.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Of course, that clause has been interpreted numerous of times in different context but it is from the Establishment Clause that the concept of separation of church and state emanates, ( hereafter "SCS"). As you noted above, Thomas Jefferson made reference to the phrase, SCS, after the adopton of the Constitution. Although the phrase was "coined" after the adoption of the Constitution, the concept itself is deeply rooted in the Establishment Clause (the "EC").

The goal of the EC is two fold: (a) stop the intrusion of government into private affairs of religion; and (b) to prevent the intrusion of the church into the affairs of state. Over the years, the Supreme Court has developed a 3 prong test to determine whether there is a violation of the EC:

(1) the government action must reflect a clearly secular purpose (as opposed to a religions one); (2) the action must have a primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion; and (3) the government must avoid excessive entanglement with religion.​

So, no matter how ones "baggage" causes one to handle affairs dealing with government and religion, the question comes down to whether those actions have caused an intrusion into or commingling of church and state that violates the EC. If the governmental action fails to pass any one of the 3 prongs, the government action violates the Constitution and the concept of SCS.

QueEx

 

[nittie]

How?????? Couldn't I ascribe any emotion to being God by that logic, such as a six-year-old throwing a tantrum in the supermarket?



How do you know so much about God? The way you use such certainty in describing God's nature-- especially with regard for tribes of people-- seems very influenced by the religion you so strongly denounce.

Indigenous? I thought they crossed the Bering Strait from Eurasia.

People have a strong urge in recent times to appropriate religious concepts while denouncing the doctrines but claiming religion had no influence over the conceptions which they advance. Most of these people call themselves spiritual-- they don't want to defend religion but they haven't completely divested themselves of it, either.



This seriously makes no sense to me.

What you seem to deride the black church for representing seems synonymous with the values of Christ as represented in the Bible. "Turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" are not inventions of the black church.

Also, every white church is not a proponent of white pride. Religion is often an expression of cultural values-- i.e. "God Bless America," a common refrain more nationalistic than religious. But it is possible to have religion separate from that and you seem to paint with far too broad a brush. To cynically dismiss religion as "a way to instill values in people" fails to account for all the sincere believers out there who see it as a way of getting closer to God.

Religion is a way to control people and maintain the status quo.

Organized religion
See also: Neolithic revolution
Through the bulk of human evolution, humans lived in small nomadic bands practicing a hunter gatherer lifestyle. The emergence of complex and organized religions can be traced to the period when humans abandoned their nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyles in order to begin farming during the Neolithic period.

Humans began domesticating crops and animals around 10,000 BCE chiefly in the Near East but independently in a number of locations around the world. The invention of agriculture during the Neolithic revolution was a major event in human history. The increased productivity provided by farming and the relative security of food surpluses allowed these communities to expand. Crop production led to the emergence of the first villages, chiefdoms, states, nations and empires. The societies born out of the neolithic revolution were characterized by high population densities, complex labor diversification, trading economies, centralized administrations and political structures, hiearchical ideologies and depersonalized systems of knowledge.

The transition from foraging bands to states and empires resulted in more specialized and developed forms of religion that were reflections of the new social and political environments. While bands and small tribes possess supernatural beliefs, these beliefs are adapted to smaller populations. Organized religion emerged as a means of providing social and economic stability to large populations through the following ways:

Organized religion served to Justify the central authority, which in turn possessed the right to collect taxes in return for providing social and security services to the state. The empires of Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, were theocracies with chiefs, kings and emperors playing dual roles of political and spiritual leaders. Virtually all state societies and chiefdoms around the world have similar political structures where political authority is justified by divine sanction.

God is something entirely different.

 

[Greed]

Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html

 

[desideratum]

There is a vast difference between the worship of God and religion. We have the written word of God, the Bible. Then we have religion, which is man made.

Religion in itself is horrible and in my opinion nothing more than an attempt by Satan to keep people away from the Truth of the Gospel.

The written word of God is just that, the written word of God. Everything we need to know about God, the good news of the Gospel and his plan of redemption is in the Bible (and for that matter everything we need to know about personal, professional and other relationships is in the book of Proverbs).

Contrast that with religion. Religion is the practice of worship that has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible or God but has everything to do with control and money.

For example, Judaism has evolved from the studying of the Torah (the first 5 books of the Old Testament) to the study/worship of a book called the Talmud. The Talmud has nothing to do with the Old Testament or God. It is nothing more than a book of opinions by Pharisees about what they think God meant, rather than what he said in the written word. The orthodox jews revere this racist book of hatred more than they do the Torah; this is why they treat gentiles (whites, blacks, arabs) like SHIT.

Catholicism is another example of religion. Catholics engage in religious practices that are non Biblical. For example, Mariology – the praying to Mary and the praying to saints. This religious practice involves praying to dead people as intermediaries between the Catholic and God – when you go into a Catholic Church you see a statue of mary and people lighting candles and praying to it….HELLO. The Bible clearly states not to pray to anyone other than God, doing so is called idolatry (but they do it anyway). The praying the rosary and saying hail mary’s have nothing to do with God yet they do this because the Catholic Church promotes it. These, among other reasons, are why the reformation happened…Thank God.

The above two examples of are merely to demonstrate how religion is like a cancer and slowly destroys.