The path of Martin or Malcolm?

[Deacs]

If Malcolm had been the front runner, national guard and police dogs would still be eating our asses because white people would be too afraid to let us loose.

They wouldn't have done nothing that you haven't experienced prior to that moment. These were actions already taken on a people who were too busy defending and NOT fighting. It would be different if they fought back.

They were not tempered to fight, they evaded conflict for the most part and most of these actions excluding the riots were all running from them. Even during the riot, they still truthfully did not direct any aggression towards the National Guard or police, and yet the dogs were in their ass, the hoses were in their ass, the clubs were in their ass, and they still died... for a peaceful protest.

The tactics that were used were all non violent protest. Theses in itself was not in preparation to attack, but understood that they WOULD be attacked. No group who were attacking would be stupid enough to bunch together with picket signs and call this an attack. These aren't the tactics of a revolution, these don't include any precepts of guerilla warfare, or any type of war at all.

Do you have any footage of a group of African American on the attack in these times? I found seven cases, all contained in ghettos, none leaving the areas, all predicated on climate of situation and NOT organized. This is not a battle, this is a bar brawl after an Eagles game.

Maybe, if you attacked them, not only in their territory instead of your own, where you had their women and children, their mothers and fathers, you will see a different form of attack. But here, they were surrounded and overpowered.

 

[Negmarron]

They wouldn't have done nothing that you haven't experienced prior to that moment. These were actions already taken on a people who were too busy defending and NOT fighting. It would be different if they fought back.

They were not tempered to fight, they evaded conflict for the most part and most of these actions excluding the riots were all running from them. Even during the riot, they still truthfully did not direct any aggression towards the National Guard or police, and yet the dogs were in their ass, the hoses were in their ass, the clubs were in their ass, and they still died... for a peaceful protest.

The tactics that were used were all non violent protest. Theses in itself was not in preparation to attack, but understood that they WOULD be attacked. No group who were attacking would be stupid enough to bunch together with picket signs and call this an attack. These aren't the tactics of a revolution, these don't include any precepts of guerilla warfare, or any type of war at all.

Do you have any footage of a group of African American on the attack in these times? I found seven cases, all contained in ghettos, none leaving the areas, all predicated on climate of situation and NOT organized. This is not a battle, this is a bar brawl after an Eagles game.

Maybe, if you attacked them, not only in their territory instead of your own, where you had their women and children, their mothers and fathers, you will see a different form of attack. But here, they were surrounded and overpowered.

And I would say that you're wrong, not because what you say is false, which it's not, but because perception is reality.

On the news, peaceful protesters getting their ass kicked inspires sympathy and the attackers are looked at as villians, right or wrong. Malcolm at the window holding a rifle or the armed panthers defending themselves is a visceral demonstration of black power and in this country where we are outnumbered almost 10 to 1, that is a threat.

Perception

 

[Deacs]

And I would say that you're wrong, not because what you say is false, which it's not, but because perception is reality.

On the news, peaceful protesters getting their ass kicked inspires sympathy and the attackers are looked at as villians, right or wrong. Malcolm at the window holding a rifle or the armed panthers defending themselves is a visceral demonstration of black power and in this country where we are outnumbered almost 10 to 1, that is a threat.

Perception

With that being said, it shouldn't matter what they perceive, it is what you do with it. All revolutions are bloody, every last one of them, and on the other end, at least you have the opportunity to say you have fought valiantly for your rights, to be equal, for land, for liberty, whatever.

Back to the 10:1, and if history serves us correctly, 8 people took out close to 3,000 [if the 9/11 attack was orchestrated by 'terrorist' or war combatants], 2 took out the Oklahoma Federal Building, 1 took out 110 people in a nightclub with a Molotov cocktail. The infrastructure hasn't changed much, power lines haven't changed at all, and no city is 100% containable, and throughout history, America has lost wars primarily on the land and in obstructive terrain.

By your comments, America won Vietnam, we won Korea, and Pearl Harbor didn't happen. Asked the French about the First Indochina War when they didn't understand the landscape of battle. I'm unsure if your concept of war included killing all which oppress you, but it is not difficult to burn busloads of whites back then, since they as well stayed in one area.

They weren't looked on as villains until 1964? Which means that all times before hand, do you believe the world was blind to the actions of the USA? People don't help you until you help yourself, they didn't help at all because, we didn't fight back, and we wouldn't need it to have this fight. Why do you want 'sympathy'? To this day, I am unsympathetic to anyone who is bullied and turn the other cheek, as my fathers were when I was bullied and turned the other cheek. Hell, my cousin perceived it as weakness and marched me back to Ebbets Field Projects in Brooklyn and told me to use anything to make those who made me bleed, bleed. You don't look for sympathy in a revolution of battle, you destroy you enemy for which they stand. Not tough words or strong talk, simple war actions.

You perceive their numbers as great strength? Ask any Vietnam veteran about how great their strength was, then go to the VA hospital and ask a veteran what war means in the war zone. I tell you this, it is unforgettable.

Negmarron, thank you brother

 

[daakcyde]

consider where both of them came up... MLK was southern, plus from a peacher household/tradition, while most of X's street "education" happened up north... figures that king would be more peaceful while X would be more militant in message.

i would say one negative of HOW MLK helped bring change in the 50s and 60s is that nowadays everything somebody like a sharpton, jackson, etc. seems to automatically do is march or sing "we shall overcome" and then everybody goes home contented like shit was accomplished.

case in point Jena. is the kid still jail? there was a REAL movement building there, and after the march shit just seemed to die out. the march ISN'T the end of things.

 

[Deacs]

consider where both of them came up... MLK was southern, plus from a peacher household/tradition, while most of X's street "education" happened up north... figures that king would be more peaceful while X would be more militant in message.

i would say one negative of HOW MLK helped bring change in the 50s and 60s is that nowadays everything somebody like a sharpton, jackson, etc. seems to automatically do is march or sing "we shall overcome" and then everybody goes home contented like shit was accomplished.

case in point Jena. is the kid still jail? there was a REAL movement building there, and after the march shit just seemed to die out. the march ISN'T the end of things.

Thank you!

That is our revolution, that is what we do, we march with signs and lay in front of trucks to get run over.
-The nappy headed females got a perm and graduated, Imus got millions.
-All Jena six done was a sidebar and the system still happened
-America has yet to refute Kanye's 'Bush doesn't care about black people'
-Sean Bell cops are still collecting a paycheck
-Amadou Diallo cops still collecting a paycheck
-Abner Louima took a broomstick up the ass and one cop did a bid for 4-5 years while the other 3 who watched kept a paycheck
-2 Immigrants in PA were killed by whites and acquitted of hate crimes *no protest here, but NO PROTEST??

We march for things that are sensationalized, but what truthfully has been done since 1965 in civil rights? What new 'rights' have we made towards equality and freedom? We took the easy way out, the non violent way out, and lost our willingness to fight for anything else other than each other ever since.

 

[Negmarron]

With that being said, it shouldn't matter what they perceive, it is what you do with it. All revolutions are bloody, every last one of them, and on the other end, at least you have the opportunity to say you have fought valiantly for your rights, to be equal, for land, for liberty, whatever.

Back to the 10:1, and if history serves us correctly, 8 people took out close to 3,000 [if the 9/11 attack was orchestrated by 'terrorist' or war combatants], 2 took out the Oklahoma Federal Building, 1 took out 110 people in a nightclub with a Molotov cocktail. The infrastructure hasn't changed much, power lines haven't changed at all, and no city is 100% containable, and throughout history, America has lost wars primarily on the land and in obstructive terrain.

By your comments, America won Vietnam, we won Korea, and Pearl Harbor didn't happen. Asked the French about the First Indochina War when they didn't understand the landscape of battle. I'm unsure if your concept of war included killing all which oppress you, but it is not difficult to burn busloads of whites back then, since they as well stayed in one area.

They weren't looked on as villains until 1964? Which means that all times before hand, do you believe the world was blind to the actions of the USA? People don't help you until you help yourself, they didn't help at all because, we didn't fight back, and we wouldn't need it to have this fight. Why do you want 'sympathy'? To this day, I am unsympathetic to anyone who is bullied and turn the other cheek, as my fathers were when I was bullied and turned the other cheek. Hell, my cousin perceived it as weakness and marched me back to Ebbets Field Projects in Brooklyn and told me to use anything to make those who made me bleed, bleed. You don't look for sympathy in a revolution of battle, you destroy you enemy for which they stand. Not tough words or strong talk, simple war actions.

You perceive their numbers as great strength? Ask any Vietnam veteran about how great their strength was, then go to the VA hospital and ask a veteran what war means in the war zone. I tell you this, it is unforgettable.

Negmarron, thank you brother

Well all I can say is that you're someone that values and respects violence more than results. Revolutions aren't about proving your manhood. And every man, woman and child isn't gonna pick up a gun. The fact remains, it was Martin at the negotiating table, just like it was Ghandi that won India its freedom. But there are a few instances where it is time to pick up the sword. Integrationism got Toussaint L'Ouvreture a cold death by exposure while Jean Jaques Dessalines became Emperor. Look at the price Haiti has paid in the long term.

I'm not sure how you can interpret what I said as meaning we won Vietnam, Korea and Pearl Harbor never happened. But Vietnam is an emerging capitalist economy and S. Korea is one of the largest economies in the world. How long is your view for measuring wins?

 

[darkninja7000]

I'm gonna take a lot of heat for this.... but MLK's message was bullshit almost coonish. A revolution cannot be made holding hands and singing church hymns while the oppressor is kickin you right in the ass. it's just impossible. peaceful resistance is bullshit and if you think otherwise you are crazy. in fact look at the American revolution.... had the colonists practiced non violence.. we would be hailing the queen today. Take a look at the Cuban Revolution nothing would have been accomplished had the Guerrillas practiced that non violence bullshit.

What happened to self preservation? how can you sit back and allow yourselves to be oppressed, brutalized and killed just to send a message? GTFO with that bullshit. Malcolm's message was and is the only truth. Take a stand against your oppressors and fight if you must. It is not a black nature, or a militant nature... but rather Human nature. The Cacs love MLK and with good reason. He allowed them to have their way with us and with no repercussion. As a matter of fact they gave him a holiday.... on some ole "here ya go" "good boy". and as usual black people ate it up. "we's makin progress now" GTFO.

 

[Deacs]

Well all I can say is that you're someone that values and respects violence more than results. Revolutions aren't about proving your manhood. And every man, woman and child isn't gonna pick up a gun. The fact remains, it was Martin at the negotiating table, just like it was Ghandi that won India its freedom. But there are a few instances where it is time to pick up the sword. Integrationism got Toussaint L'Ouvreture a cold death by exposure while Jean Jaques Dessalines became Emperor. Look at the price Haiti has paid in the long term.

I'm not sure how you can interpret what I said as meaning we won Vietnam, Korea and Pearl Harbor never happened. But Vietnam is an emerging capitalist economy and S. Korea is one of the largest economies in the world. How long is your view for measuring wins?

Lets See:
USA - still in power from British
French - They destroyed their oppressors
Russia - destroyed their oppressors, later themselves
Cuban - Are they still around? as a communist country?

Your concern with numbers in wartime and lack of war knowledge when it comes to fighting is why those wars, battles, and skirmishes were brought up. Your concern with numbers will always defeat you, especially since it hasn't been about a numbers game since WWI
We lost the WAR in Vietnam, outnumbered and stronger, and left defeated
We lost the WAR in Korea, outnumbered and stronger, and left defeated
The French got their behinds handed to them in Vietnam and haven't returned, again they were stronger and outnumbered them militarily.

You are right, revolution is not about manhood, it is about the destruction of the oppressive forces and all which limits your liberty. simple as that. Only those willing to take liberty are the only ones still left standing, the rest are kneeling. You could only be liberal and honorable with enemies which are that, ours was and still is not any of these things.

But again, this is not a rehashing of history, yes Martin reached the table first, but what if never made it? Lets take him out since this again deals with possible paths. Do you believe if his assassination happened by mere happenstance, that another would fill his void for hand holding?


But it is always the first step as you seen in both USA and France. Violence is a requirement historically in order to destroy the previous order and thought. The same examples of the 2 non-violent revolutions of MLK and Ghandi shows that, for their oppressors, in the same words saying that they are free, still has lingering influences in both cases.

As you said, that is on both sides, but they are then willing to die anyway, their choice. They didn't give you a choice when you marched and abused you, what would be so much different then? They bombed your children, raped your women, hung your men with their balls cut off and stuffed in your mouth. They attacked you with dogs, drugs, sticks, bats, knives, guns, vehicles, disease experimentation. You are concerned whether or not they will fight, your enemy doesn't care regardless.

Lets stick with USA, and again, with the same documentation given which depicts the stats of AA today compared to before, in light of the other influences which still plague our communities today, are we truly better off? By the evidence, no.

 

[Nevsky]

If Malcolm had been the front runner, national guard and police dogs would still be eating our asses because white people would be too afraid to let us loose.

I agree.

 

[Nevsky]

I think the path of "intergration" was the mistake. We should have moved to stay separate from the whites.

Black Wall Street as an example.


Whenever one of us "made it" our first move was to leave the area where we grew up and move to the suburbs. Taking the knowledge and ability that could uplift our neighborhood with us.

But, as was stated earlier, neither Malcolm or Martin were wrong. We have survived the greatest mass killing, enslavement in the history of humanity. We thrive and achieve.

Yes, however that was their individual choice. That was how they chose to live. I can't fault a black person for doing what they want to do. It's their right regardless of how others feel.

 

[Deacs]

I'm gonna take a lot of heat for this.... but MLK's message was bullshit almost coonish. A revolution cannot be made holding hands and singing church hymns while the oppressor is kickin you right in the ass. it's just impossible. peaceful resistance is bullshit and if you think otherwise you are crazy. in fact look at the American revolution.... had the colonists practiced non violence.. we would be hailing the queen today. Take a look at the Cuban Revolution nothing would have been accomplished had the Guerrillas practiced that non violence bullshit.

What happened to self preservation? how can you sit back and allow yourselves to be oppressed, brutalized and killed just to send a message? GTFO with that bullshit. Malcolm's message was and is the only truth. Take a stand against your oppressors and fight if you must. It is not a black nature, or a militant nature... but rather Human nature. The Cacs love MLK and with good reason. He allowed them to have their way with us and with no repercussion. As a matter of fact they gave him a holiday.... on some ole "here ya go" "good boy". and as usual black people ate it up. "we's makin progress now" GTFO.

He was not a coon, he was a christian and stood by the contradictory beliefs of his religion while appealing to those who believed the country was founded off those very beliefs. That takes strength in convictions alone and many of us can't do that...

With that said, I only disagree with the options taken off the table for co-mingling and allowing them to integrate with our values and stance. I disagree with the lack which we traded our liberty and equality for. Was a great man, just a pacifist in a bloody undeclared war

 

[darkninja7000]

He was not a coon, he was a christian and stood by the contradictory beliefs of his religion while appealing to those who believed the country was founded off those very beliefs. That takes strength in convictions alone and many of us can't do that...

With that said, I only disagree with the options taken off the table for co-mingling and allowing them to integrate with our values and stance. I disagree with the lack which we traded our liberty and equality for. Was a great man, just a pacifist in a bloody undeclared war

never said he was a coon but point taken.

 

[ICEBURG SLIM]

both, choose your side, embrace both.

 

[Negmarron]

USA - still in power from British
French - They destroyed their oppressors
Russia - destroyed their oppressors, later themselves
Cuban - Are they still around? as a communist country?

What?

Your concern with numbers in wartime and lack of war knowledge when it comes to fighting is why those wars, battles, and skirmishes were brought up. Your concern with numbers will always defeat you, especially since it hasn't been about a numbers game since WWI
We lost the WAR in Vietnam, outnumbered and stronger, and left defeated
We lost the WAR in Korea, outnumbered and stronger, and left defeated
The French got their behinds handed to them in Vietnam and haven't returned, again they were stronger and outnumbered them militarily.

None of that matters because the civil rights struggle was never the same kind of WAR. A bad comparison.

You are right, revolution is not about manhood, it is about the destruction of the oppressive forces and all which limits your liberty. simple as that. Only those willing to take liberty are the only ones still left standing, the rest are kneeling. You could only be liberal and honorable with enemies which are that, ours was and still is not any of these things.

Again, history does not bear that out. India is a nuclear power. It can be done both ways.

But again, this is not a rehashing of history, yes Martin reached the table first, but what if never made it? Lets take him out since this again deals with possible paths. Do you believe if his assassination happened by mere happenstance, that another would fill his void for hand holding?

It may have taken another 10 years but we would have done it.

But it is always the first step as you seen in both USA and France. Violence is a requirement historically in order to destroy the previous order and thought. The same examples of the 2 non-violent revolutions of MLK and Ghandi shows that, for their oppressors, in the same words saying that they are free, still has lingering influences in both cases.

Personal/national freedom does not equal freedom from interference. In any case. The US almost lost the War of 1812. If the British Empire could've found a beneficial way to interfere in the Civil, they would have. It's not until the British had to respect the THREAT of American power that we became allies instead of wayward colonists. Which goes back to what I said about MLK being the acceptable face of the movement and Malcolm being the shadow in closet.

As you said, that is on both sides, but they are then willing to die anyway, their choice. They didn't give you a choice when you marched and abused you, what would be so much different then? They bombed your children, raped your women, hung your men with their balls cut off and stuffed in your mouth. They attacked you with dogs, drugs, sticks, bats, knives, guns, vehicles, disease experimentation. You are concerned whether or not they will fight, your enemy doesn't care regardless.

Lets stick with USA, and again, with the same documentation given which depicts the stats of AA today compared to before, in light of the other influences which still plague our communities today, are we truly better off? By the evidence, no.

How many men are being lynched in broad daylight? How many of us are in college and are successful professionals? How many of us run companies with majority white workforces?

I'd take todays situation of the domestic terrorism of the last century anyday and twice on sunday. Is todays situation perfect? Not by a long. But it's better.

 

[Negmarron]

I disagree with the lack which we traded our liberty and equality for. Was a great man, just a pacifist in a bloody undeclared war

You can't trade what you don't have.

 

[Costanza]

To quote 50 Cent-

"It's non violent non violent til I get hit with a rock. Then it's Coretta fuck dis, gon' get me my glock."

Lots of stupidity in this thread.

It's a damn shame how MLK is made out to be some sort of a pussy or less than a man because he believed in fighting in a smarter way...

 

[cthomas0964]

Brother Malcolm(pbh) wanted change by force,then once he came from his pilgrimage he was for a peaceful change.

Dr.King was always for peace.

someone will knock what i've said

I was just thinking this too. We are too stuck on the Malcolm X and not the Malcolm Shabazz.