Report Card On the Bogus - "WAR ON TERROR"

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Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror

Published on Tuesday, November 1, 2005 by Reuters
Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror
by David Morgan

WASHINGTON - U.S. terrorism experts Daniel Benjamin and Steven Simon have reached a stark conclusion about the war on terrorism: the United States is losing.


(Bush) has given them an excellent American target in Iraq but in the process has energized the jihad and given militants the kind of urban warfare experience that will raise the future threat to the United States exponentially.

Steven Simon, a Rand Corp. analyst who teaches at Georgetown University
Despite an early victory over the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, the two former Clinton administration officials say President George W. Bush's policies have created a new haven for terrorism in Iraq that escalates the potential for Islamic violence against Europe and the United States.

America's badly damaged image in the Muslim world could take more than a generation to set right. And Bush's mounting political woes at home have undermined the chance for any bold U.S. initiatives to address the grim social realities that feed Islamic radicalism, they say.

"It's been fairly disastrous," said Benjamin, who worked as a director for counterterrorism at the National Security Council from 1994 to 1999.

"We have had some very important successes getting individual terrorists. But I think the broader story is really quite awful. We have done a lot to fuel the fires, and we have done a lot to encourage people to hate us," he added in an interview.

Benjamin and Simon, a former State Department official who was also at the NSC, are co-authors of a new book titled: "The Next Attack: The Failure of the War on Terror and a Strategy for Getting it Right" (Times Books).

Following on from their 2002 book, "The Age of Sacred Terror" (Random House), Benjamin and Simon list what they call U.S. missteps since the September 11, 2001, attacks on America.

The Bush administration presents the war on terrorism as a difficult but largely successful struggle that has seen the gutting of al Qaeda's pre-September 11 leadership and prevented new attacks in the United States over the past four years.

Bush said last month the United States and its allies had disrupted plans for 10 al Qaeda attacks since September 11, including one against West Coast targets with hijacked planes.

The White House describes Iraq as a central front in the war on terrorism and says the building of democracy there will confound militant aims and help to propel the entire Middle East region toward democracy.

Benjamin and Simon's criticism of the Bush administration in Iraq follows a path similar to those of other critics, including former U.S. national security adviser Brent Scowcroft and former White House counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke.

"We may be attacked by terrorists who receive their training in Iraq, or attacked by terrorists who were inspired, organized and trained by people who were in Iraq," said Simon, a Rand Corp. analyst who teaches at Georgetown University.

"(Bush) has given them an excellent American target in Iraq but in the process has energized the jihad and given militants the kind of urban warfare experience that will raise the future threat to the United States exponentially."

For Benjamin and Simon, the war on terrorism has cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars and failed to counter a deadly global movement responsible for attacks in London, Madrid, Bali, Indonesia, and Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt.

And not even al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, they say, could have dreamed the United States would stumble so badly in the court of Muslim public opinion.

"Everyone says there's a war of ideas out there, and I agree. The sad fact is that we're on the wrong side," said Benjamin, now a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

U.S. fortunes could improve, the authors say, if Washington took a number of politically challenging steps, like bolstering public diplomacy with trade pacts aimed at expanding middle-class influence in countries such as Pakistan.

Washington also needs to do more to ease regional tensions that feed Muslim grievances across the globe, from Thailand and the Philippines to Chechnya and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In a Muslim world of 1.2 billion people, as many as three-in-four hold negative views of the United States.

Because anti-U.S. rhetoric often appeals strongly to impressionable youth, Benjamin and Simon believe many of today's young Muslims will harbor grievances against the United States for the rest of their lives.

The authors believe there is little prospect for fundamental improvement in U.S. policy under Bush "There are resource constraints, there are constraints in the realm of trade, there are political constraints," said Simon.

"These are not the kinds of circumstances that favor bold new policies that require spending political capital that it turns out the White House just doesn't have," he added.
 
Re: Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror

"the two former Clinton administration officials say President George W. Bush's policies have created a new haven for terrorism in Iraq that escalates the potential for Islamic violence against Europe and the United States."

Not denying the claim;however, what would one expect the claim to be given the source.

They've also criticized the Bush adminstration on Syria, Libya,etc;however,
paint the rosy picture that the work done under the Clinton adminstration was A+ work.
 
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Re: Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror

African Herbsman said:
Global terrorism has increased since the War on Terror was initiated. Sounds like success to me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/27/AR2005042702096.html

What do you take from these lines from the very link you posted

"The numbers can't be compared in any meaningful way," said John O. Brennan, acting head of the NCTC, which produced the statistics.


Although the officials called the data seriously flawed, they said they put it out to avoid criticism that the State Department was trying to avoid admitting setbacks in the fight against terrorism by not publishing the data. "If we didn't put out these numbers today, you'd say we're withholding data. That's why we're putting them out," said Philip D. Zelikow,


Also, I think U.S. citizens are more concerned with Attacks against the U.S. and not the rest of the world. We haven't had any attacks in the U.S. since 9/11.
 
Re: Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror

eewwll said:
What do you take from these lines from the very link you posted

"The numbers can't be compared in any meaningful way," said John O. Brennan, acting head of the NCTC, which produced the statistics.


Although the officials called the data seriously flawed, they said they put it out to avoid criticism that the State Department was trying to avoid admitting setbacks in the fight against terrorism by not publishing the data. "If we didn't put out these numbers today, you'd say we're withholding data. That's why we're putting them out," said Philip D. Zelikow,


Also, I think U.S. citizens are more concerned with Attacks against the U.S. and not the rest of the world. We haven't had any attacks in the U.S. since 9/11.
shit has CIA written all over it.
 
Re: Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror

eewwll said:
What do you take from these lines from the very link you posted

"The numbers can't be compared in any meaningful way," said John O. Brennan, acting head of the NCTC, which produced the statistics.

The NCTC is the government clearinghouse for terrorism statistics, of course they want to downplay the numbers. Why make themselves look bad.


eewwll said:
Although the officials called the data seriously flawed, they said they put it out to avoid criticism that the State Department was trying to avoid admitting setbacks in the fight against terrorism by not publishing the data. "If we didn't put out these numbers today, you'd say we're withholding data. That's why we're putting them out," said Philip D. Zelikow,

Philip D. Zelikow, counselor to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Zelikow was executive director of last year's commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

He's part of the administration. He has zero credibility.

eewwll said:
Also, I think U.S. citizens are more concerned with Attacks against the U.S. and not the rest of the world. We haven't had any attacks in the U.S. since 9/11.

Only because our goverment hasn't attacked us again.
 
Re: Experts Say US is Losing War on Terror

African Herbsman said:
"The numbers can't be compared in any meaningful way," said John O. Brennan, acting head of the NCTC, which produced the statistics.

The NCTC is the government clearinghouse for terrorism statistics, of course they want to downplay the numbers. Why make themselves look bad.

So why post the link as evidence if the "evidence" is shady and you don't trust the people producing the numbers? It was YOUR cited link not mine.




Philip D. Zelikow, counselor to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Zelikow was executive director of last year's commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

He's part of the administration. He has zero credibility.

Same question as above


Only because our goverment hasn't attacked us again.

Don't you plan on supporting that claim that our government was behind the 9/11 attacked..with hard substantial evidence or clear logical connections or will you just say.." in my opinion" instead???


Your response is above in bold and italics and underlined
 
<font size="4"><center>
"Western governments are frighteningly out of touch
with the principal political currents in the Middle East. The
US and its allies overestimated Ayad Allawi's strength, were
"stunned" by Hamas' win, and were surprised by the Aoun-Nasrallah
agreement because they don't have a clue about
what's really going on in the region."
</font size></cemter>




[frame]http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HC31Ak02.html[/frame]

[hide]HOW TO LOSE THE WAR ON TERROR
PART 1: Talking with the 'terrorists'
By Mark Perry and Alastair Crooke

Seventy-two hours before the Iraqi people voted on a new parliament, on December 12, 2005, we were told by a senior US administration official that "detailed data received by the White House" pointed to a "decisive win" for Ayad Allawi's Iraqi National List. "Allawi's victory turns the tables on the insurgents," this official said gleefully. "Sectarianism will be the big loser."

Allawi's prospective triumph was trumpeted repeatedly over the next two days by US news networks quoting administration officials. Weeks later, after the results of the election became

known, it was clear that the White House had overestimated Allawi's popularity: his party received just over 5% of the vote.

On the eve of the Palestinian parliamentary elections in late January, US-funded Palestinian polls suggested that while the mainstream Fatah movement had lost much of its popular support, Hamas was expected to win no more than "a third of the legislature's 132 seats". [1] On January 27, when the results of the polling were complete, it was clear not only that Fatah had been defeated, but that Hamas had swept into office in a landslide. A prominent front-page article in the Washington Post stated that US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was "stunned" by the results, as the Hamas victory contradicted everything the administration of President George W Bush believed about Palestinian society. [2]

Just two weeks after the Hamas victory, on February 6, Lebanese Maronite leader Michel Aoun and Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah appeared together in Beirut to sign a memorandum of understanding between the Free Patriotic Movement and Hezbollah. The Aoun-Nasrallah agreement shook the State Department, which had worked for years to isolate Hezbollah.

The US had underscored its anti-Hezbollah strategy as recently as November 23, when Aoun met with State Department officials in Washington. The State Department blithely discounted the importance of the talks that Aoun's movement had been having with Hezbollah and reassured the press that Aoun would remain a staunch supporter of the United States' Lebanon policy. Certainly, it was believed, the leader of Lebanon's Maronite Christians would never tie the future of his own movement to that of a group allied with Damascus and Tehran.

In the aftermath of the Aoun-Nasrallah agreement, however, all of that changed: not only was Aoun's support for the US-led program against Syria in question, his agreement with Hezbollah meant that he was justifying Hezbollah's alleged kidnapping of Americans in Lebanon during the 1980s. [3] Overnight, it seemed, Aoun had gone from being a friend of the US to a man allied with terrorists.

Allawi's failure, Hamas' success, the Aoun-Nasrallah agreement - and the inability of the West to predict, shape or even understand these seminal events - have been variously interpreted: as a signal that the US intelligence community needs increased resources, that the West has not been doing enough to sell its "program" in the region, that the US and its allies have not been harsh enough in their condemnation of "radicalism", that the West has underestimated the amount of support its secular allies need, and (in the case of the Palestinian elections) that Hamas didn't really win at all - "Fatah lost."

We have reached a much more fundamental and alarming conclusion: Western governments are frighteningly out of touch with the principal political currents in the Middle East. The US and its allies overestimated Ayad Allawi's strength, were "stunned" by Hamas' win, and were surprised by the Aoun-Nasrallah agreement because they don't have a clue about what's really going on in the region.

But why?

With the exception of Israel (where a US and European appreciation of realities is critical to the formulation of policy), there are, inter alia, five political movements and governments in the Middle East of undeniable importance: Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood. The governments of the West don't talk to any of them.

They do talk to the leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the Persian Gulf region; but the net result of most of these contacts is that Western governments are dependent for information about the region on a set of clients who, as often as not, are mere reflections of what Westerners want the Middle East to be, rather than what it actually is: Ayad Allawi, who was wrong when he reassured US officials that Iraq's voters would reject sectarianism, Fatah, which was wrong when it told us that their acceptance of US funding for their campaign would enhance their legitimacy among Palestinian voters, and Lebanese leader Saad Hariri, who was wrong when he told the US government that its program for isolating Hezbollah would work.

This clientism is not new; rather, it is a continuation of the misreading that led US and British officials to believe their soldiers would ride to Baghdad along flower-paved highways.

Once again, we're being "Chalabied". [4]

First encounter
In August 2004 - in an attempt to provide an opening to political Islam - a delegation including the writers of this article traveled to Beirut for discussions with the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah. We were accompanied by Bobby Muller, a well-known American veterans advocate and a political activist recognized for his leadership of the anti-landmines campaign, and Dr Beverley Milton-Edwards, a professor at Queens College, Belfast, and an expert on Hamas.

Our purpose was to begin a process that, we hoped, would eventually persuade Western governments to recognize and open up to political movements whose political legitimacy was derived from a broad base of popular support in their own communities. We knew our meetings would be controversial: both Hamas and Hezbollah were on the US and European Union lists of proscribed terrorist organizations, both had either been accused of participating in or had actually participated in the targeting of civilians, and both had vowed continued enmity to Israel - which enjoyed the strong support of the United States and its European allies.

Even so, the public statements of Hamas and Hezbollah reflected a desire to reinforce their political legitimacy by espousing elections - Hamas was then considering entering candidates in prospective Palestinian parliamentary elections, while Hezbollah was engaged in a national parliamentary campaign in which its candidates were gaining increasing support. Then too, and notwithstanding Bush administration statements linking both groups with al-Qaeda "and related groups", both had condemned the events of September 11, 2001, both had publicly stated their willingness to open contacts with the United States and Europe, and both had maintained that their conflict with Israel was legitimate and had nothing to do with the West.

Ours was one of the first organizations to seek such an opening, although various church organizations and one US think tank had engaged in discussions with the groups. But nothing had come of these meetings. In one case, during a conference in the Gulf region with officials of the Brookings Institute's Saban Center, the leaders of both Hezbollah and Hamas left the discussions in anger "after we were harangued about 'terrorism'.

We thought little could be gained by an exchange of accusations, so we worked to reassure our interlocutors that it was not our intention to engage in lectures, or to present ultimatums in advance of our discussions. As a further reassurance, we told the leaders of both movements that it was our intention to listen - and not just talk. We proposed that we not call our meetings a "dialogue" but "an exercise in mutual listening".

After several more private preliminary meetings, we convened two larger engagements, bringing a group that included former senior US and British diplomats and retired officers of Western intelligence services to Beirut in March and July last year. By then, our "exercise in mutual listening" had been expanded to include the Lebanese Muslim Brotherhood and Pakistan's Jamaat e-Islami. Even so, our focus remained on Hezbollah and Hamas.

We asked each group to begin the sessions by making a presentation on "where you see the Middle East now, how you view your role in it, and where you see it going". Our discussions were blunt, touching on nearly all the subjects sensitive to the groups and to the West: suicide bombings, attacks on Israel, the compatibility of democracy and Islamic law, philosophies of governance, the compatibility of Islamic economics and globalization, their views on al-Qaeda and radical Islam - as well as issues of particular interest to them.

We knew there would be difficult moments in our discussions, and our delegation came prepared: every delegate had served in the Middle East, often in conflict situations. All of our team, without exception, knew the history of the groups we would be speaking with and all were familiar with their personalities, leaders and political goals. Many had served in high-level positions - as ambassadors, military officers, or as senior officials in Western intelligence services.

While our meetings with the leaders of political Islam were not a secret, the meetings themselves were private. Because of the sensitivity of the topics we covered, a number of our delegates preferred that their participation not be highlighted and that statements made during the more informal sessions that occurred between sessions not be used at all. Finally, we confirmed that - unless explicitly agreed to by individual delegates - we could characterize what was said only in general terms.

This said, our delegations (the members of which varied through two meetings over a period of five months) included the original four Conflicts Forum delegates, plus three former officers of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), a well-known television producer, a former member of the Mitchell Commission, [5] a former ambassador, two Middle East activists, and the head of a US foundation focused on the Middle East.

A number of delegates were anxious to confront our interlocutors - and particularly Hamas and Hezbollah - over their use of violence, a number of others were skeptical of any of the groups' claims for engagement with the US, and nearly all of our delegates had suffered the loss of close friends in the region's conflicts. In no sense could it be said that any member of our delegation arrived in Beirut sympathetic to the groups to whom we were speaking. Sympathy was not what was required, but a hard-headed and unsentimental appreciation that US and other Western interests require that we look at facts as they are.

Hezbollah: 'Not a threat to America'
Our Hezbollah interlocutor, Nawaf Mousawi (the chief of the group's foreign relations department), was pressed repeatedly to explain Hezbollah's reputed attacks on Americans during the 1980s in the midst of the Lebanese Civil War. He was closely questioned on his movement's role in the bombing of the US Marine Corps barracks in Beirut in 1983, on the torture and death of marine Colonel Rich Higgins, and his organization's ties to terrorist mastermind Imad Mugniyah, who is thought to be the head of the movement's external security apparatus. Mousawi's response was forceful and blunt: "We have no American blood on our hands." He repeated this statement several times to the point of insistence.

When pressed again to explain Hezbollah's ties with Imad Mugniyah, Mousawi refused to mention his name, shook his head, and confronted his questioners: "If we open every file on the civil war, then the Americans would not be able to set foot in the office of any political party in Lebanon.

"Everyone in the US administration knows we are not a terrorist organization or a threat to America," he said. "This is about politics and Israel's psychological headache of Hezbollah. We are not raising our children to hate America. Israel is our enemy; but not the Jewish people - this is not a religious war against the Jews. Our war is against occupation - that is it."

In later, private, discussions with a number of our delegates, Mousawi repeated his claim that Hezbollah was not affiliated with Mugniyah and that the organization "does not have American blood on our hands".

The exchange with Mousawi, and his insistence and unwavering tone, spurred several of our delegates to return to the US to reinvestigate the period of the Lebanese Civil War. Former and current US officials were closely questioned on the source of their information on Hezbollah activities in the 1980s and on the organization's ties to Mugniyah.

The exchanges in Washington cast doubt on Mugniyah's current ties to the organization and on the movement's role during the era of hostage-taking in the early 1980s. In short, these reports suggested that information on Hezbollah's participation in past terrorist actions against US institutions and individuals may well have been based on informants with an ax to grind. Charges of Hezbollah's responsibility for anti-American terrorism may well have been reported to US intelligence services to undermine Hezbollah's growing influence in South Lebanon at the expense of other parties.

But even if these past incidents ("the baggage they bring to the table", in the words of one delegate) were somehow to be cleared up, there is little hope for a direct US-Hezbollah engagement. "This will take a lot of time and a lot of work. It won't happen easily and it won't happen fast - and it might not happen at all," a former CIA officer said in the wake of our discussions. "There is just too much distrust."

Hezbollah leaders maintained during the course of our discussions that their actions were and are justified and can be defended as legitimate resistance. "We do not target civilians," Mousawi said in our March 2005 meetings. "Even when Israel was occupying southern Lebanon we were absolutely diligent in making certain that our actions did not endanger Israeli civilians, and we even stopped operations where Israeli families of military personnel would have been endangered by our actions. You cannot say the same for Israel."

Hezbollah's claims that its use of arms was simply a matter of self-defense was met with widespread skepticism, as was its attempt to play down its support for Syria and Iran and its dependence on both for political and (in the case of Iran) financial support. Despite this, Mousawi emphasized the Lebanese character of his movement: "We are Lebanese," he said. "We were born here. We will die here. We did not come from somewhere else."

Mousawi was adamant in responding to US demands that the movement disarm and renounce violence. "I believe that to have a fruitful policy in the region Israel must be confronted," he said.

"Political settlement demands equity of power. Israel holds all the cards. So why is there a demand for our surrender? As far as we are concerned it is not in anyone's interest, including that of the US, to leave the Arabs weak. Also in the past four years there has been stability in Lebanon and even on the border to a certain extent. Hezbollah's arms have delivered this."

But perhaps Mousawi's most interesting, and most detailed, presentation was on Hezbollah's view of its political role in Lebanon, then besieged both by demonstrations marking the assassination of Rafiq Hariri and an intense campaign for seats in the Lebanese parliament. "We are prepared to work hard to maintain Muslim unity and avoid fitna [division]. We wish to avoid turning the protests and demonstrations into a sectarian division, which is why we are prepared to make such overtures."

In fact, Hezbollah and Maronite Michel Aoun's Free Patriotic Movement were then, in March 2005, engaged in a delicate series of private exchanges on forging a national consensus - one that both parties vowed would eventually include Saad Hariri's Sunni following (the "Future Bloc") and Walid Jumblaat's Druse party. The results of these first, tentative, exchanges have now become public, with the leaders all of Lebanon's major sectarian political groups meeting in an attempt to forge a common understanding.

After the end of the dialogue session that concluded in early March last year, the leaders of the various movements and factions agreed to the disarmament of Palestinian militias operating outside of Lebanon's Palestinian refugee camps and agreed that relations with Syria would be conducted on "mutual understanding and non-interference". The February 2006 Maronite-Hezbollah understanding formed the foundation of these talks, though a full agreement on all the issues facing Lebanon has proved elusive. After a third round of talks, which concluded this March 20, two difficult political questions remain unresolved: the status of Hezbollah's arms and the future of Lebanon's presidency, which is currently in the hands of Emile Lahoud, who is viewed as pro-Syrian.

At our delegation's second meeting, last July, Nawaf Mousawi's personal political capabilities were on full display - as he presented a seat-by-seat analysis of the parliamentary election, Hezbollah's success in winning a large portion of the contested seats, and the movement's political maneuvers to build political alliances across sectarian lines. Mousawi's impressively detailed disquisition, his obvious openness to any initiative by the United States to establish a serious relationship, and his repeated claims that Hezbollah is "first, a Lebanese party" were stated with such conviction that a number of our delegation's most skeptical members were convinced that Hezbollah "is not that interested in the Syrians remaining in Lebanon. Rather, their mass demonstrations of solidarity with Syria seemed more a parting wave of thanks before they set about the tricky process of defining their own autonomy, and balancing the elements in the complex political process."

Others were not so sure: "It is going to be difficult, if not impossible, for the United States to talk to a group that is so outwardly allied to Iran," one of the participants reflected.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Mousawi's presentation reflected his personal and his movement's pessimistic views on the region's future and on the US campaign against terrorism. Most prominently, while he was "quite careful and even cagey" (in the words of one delegate) on his movement's ties with Iran, he was less so on Hezbollah's vulnerabilities to "the Khawarij trend". Noting that prominent "Salafist and takfiri websites" had "actually marked Hezbollah leaders for assassination", Mousawi said these "jihadist movements", including al-Qaeda, "actually represent a greater threat to my people and to the Palestinian population than they do to Western interests. [6] This is the real danger, and the United States needs to recognize it."

The reason for such targeting, Mousawi explained, is that "the jihadists think we are too moderate, too willing to participate in democratic processes - which they view as just another colonialist plot promoted by the Americans to dominate our region".

Hamas: A warning to the West
The meetings with Hamas evinced even greater interest among our delegates than those with Hezbollah, in large part because - as the Hamas leaders with whom we met readily admitted - US and European officials had shunned any contacts with the movement after the start of the second intifada. The Hamas leaders with whom we spoke claimed not to have met an American "since the late 1990s", while another said that his last meeting with an American had been in 1996.

Our primary contact viewed our meetings as "a chance to clear up misconceptions about who we are and what we want". As in the case of our meeting with Hezbollah, the exchanges were blunt and focused on areas of strong disagreement over the conduct of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Hamas leadership present for our first meeting in Beirut, which included Sami Khater, Musa Abu Marzouk and Usamah Hamdan, began the exchange with a straightforward statement on Hamas' political beliefs and goals. "We will continue the struggle to provide national unity, to stop Israeli aggression, we will participate in Palestinian elections, we will establish the framework for rebuilding the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] to represent all Palestinians, we will offer a truce with Israel, and we will continue our work to make certain that Israel abandons the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem. We do not endorse murder, but we do support resistance."

Hamas' long period of targeting Israeli civilians in a series of bloody bombings of cafes and buses during the second intifada engendered the most detailed exchange during our first engagement in March 2005. Initially, Hamas leaders defended their actions by citing their right to lawful resistance and the religious foundation for their decision to target civilians. But as the discussion progressed, the Hamas leaders propounded an increasingly assertive defense of their tactics, noting at one point that their decision was not made lightly or without reflection and that it was only undertaken after it became clear that Israel refused to reciprocate a Hamas offer to end the targeting of civilians.

"We are against targeting civilians," Mousa Abu Marzouk said. "And we did not do so until 1994 - after the Hebron Mosque massacre [of settler Baruch Goldstein]. And they built a shrine to him in Hebron. And at that point, since we were never attacked in that way before, we determined that Israelis kill civilians. But no one asks about Palestinian civilians. In the last five years, 347 Palestinian civilians have been killed. The numbers you see are exactly reversed for Israeli and Palestinian deaths. What about the targeting of civilians who are Palestinian? And the homes and the farms of Palestinians that are destroyed? The Israelis have rejected our offer, and we have made the offer, that both sides should stop killing civilians. But they rejected that offer."

When pressed on their targeting of civilians, Hamas leaders seemed to contradict their earlier statements by expressing their conviction that there is no distinction between Israeli civilians and soldiers. "Every Israeli is a solder," one of them said. "Settlers are armed."

When asked whether, in their view, terrorism "worked", they answered that it served to unite their people and to gain support for their political program. This claim was not a surprise: Hamas began their bombing campaign not simply as a means of fighting what they viewed as Israeli aggression, but to seize the political initiative from Fatah. (In fact, Hamas' radicalism in the first days and months of the second intifada forced Fatah leaders to follow the Hamas example, and adopt suicide bombing as a tactic.) "Their description of terrorism," one of the delegates noted, "convinced me that we are not dealing with genetically encoded monsters, but hard-headed - albeit brutal - political actors who carefully choose their tactics and attempt to manage the effects of their actions."

At the time of our first exchange with Hamas, there had been no suicide bombings in Israel since August 2004. Hamas leaders signaled that this unofficial calm would be maintained, so long as the calm was reciprocated by Israel. Even so, Hamas leaders said that they retained the right to respond to "Israeli aggression" just as (as they pointed out) Israel said that it had the right to continue targeting Palestinians it viewed as ticking bombs.

"It wasn't so easy losing our founders, our people, our leaders, and our friends," one of their leaders said. "When all channels are closed to us, we use violence. We don't have jets, we don't have tanks. So we made the decision. It is one of the ways we resist, it is not the only way."

In July, with the unofficial period of calm nearing the one-year mark, Hamas officials reiterated their commitment to "maintaining a hudna [truce] with Israel, even though Israel does not respond and continues to target out leaders".

In both meetings, Hamas officials stridently objected to US proscriptions against any contact between American and Hamas officials, arguing that "we didn't wage war on the US, even verbally. We have never expressed a link with Osama bin Laden and we don't support him."

Usamah Hamdan was outspoken in his criticism of the US decision to add Hamas to the State Department's list of proscribed organizations: "We knew it was going to happen and in 1996 we tried to communicate with [then secretary of state] Madeleine Albright to find a way to object - to talk with her about the decision," he remembered. "We were told that she was unavailable to talk with us and that we should call back. We were then put on the list and we made our second call, and we were told, 'We're sorry, but secretary Albright doesn't talk to terrorists.'"

Hamas leaders were also particularly intent on promoting their decision to participate in the Palestinian Authority's scheduled parliamentary elections - even after they were postponed from last July until this March. At times, their leaders even seemed prescient, focusing on their organizational skills, their ability to appeal to a broad base of Palestinians, and their continuing commitment to provide constituent services, all of which they cited as evidence for their belief that they would likely win a majority in the Palestinian parliament. [7]

"The Palestinians decide their leaders and the international community must accept that," one of them noted in March 2005. "And when we win those elections it will be a great problems for the Americans, I am sure. Is the international community going to ignore the results of the elections?"

Hamas' leaders also denied that they would impose strict Islamic forms on Palestinian social life, using the Koran as an example of "respecting diversity" among peoples, a claim they have repeated in the wake of their recent parliamentary victory.

"Islam is comprehensive and we understand that, but the Palestinian people are diverse," one of their leaders said last March. "The people will decide who will lead them and what kind of government they will have and we must respect those difference and will respect those differences."

Usamah Hamdan gave a more detailed answer during our July meetings, acknowledging Western fears about what impact the election of an Islamist party would have on an otherwise secular society: "There is a fear that is based on historical baggage," he said, "that Hamas will be the next Taliban. We are not. We have always insisted that our people should be allowed to make choices - not just on who to vote for, but on how to live. We do not recruiting forcibly, but by persuasion. For us, Islam is the answer, but that is not true for everyone. We believe that there should be the launch of a democratic process in the whole region."

Once again (as was the case with Hezbollah), Hamas leaders were outspoken in their condemnation of America's "inability to differentiate" between Islamist movements, of the United States' and Europe's willingness to list Hamas as a "terrorist" organization - alongside al-Qaeda.

One Hamas leader was explicit in setting out the differences and in explaining how the West's lack of sophistication and political nuance could be fatal for America's standing in the region. "We have been warned by the Salafists that what we are doing in accepting democracy is playing into our enemy's hands," this leader said.

"The message was a warning. One of them, I remember, said to me: 'Listen, my brother, we wish you well in your elections. But you should know that whether you win or lose, the Americans will never, ever accept you are equal partners. And you will learn this. And when you do, you will come back to us, and together we will make a beginning. And together we will finish them here. Together we will burn it. That is the only solution. Burn it. And we will begin in Mecca and Medina."

Notes
1. "Palestinians' risky elections", Washington, Post, Editorial, January 22.

2. "Hamas sweeps Palestinian elections, complicating peace efforts in Mideast", Scott Wilson, Washington Post, January 27.

3. US assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern affairs David Welch played down the Aoun-Nasrallah agreement during a press conference on February 9, saying that the State Department view was that "this is a discussion between two political currents and not a governmental discussion". Welch was then asked: "Now, obliquely, you referred to somebody justifying taking American hostages. You're talking about Aoun? Can you say that on the record?" To which Welch responded: "Yes."

4. Ahmad Chalabi was an Iraqi exile who fed the US government "intelligence" about the Saddam Hussein regime ahead of the US invasion, much of which turned out to be wrong or self-serving. See Chalabi: From White House to dog house, May 22, 2004.

5. The Mitchell Commission, chaired by former US senator George Mitchell, was convened by then US president Bill Clinton to investigate the causes of the "second intifada", the violence in Israel and Palestine that followed the visit by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in September 2000.

6. The Khawarij - or Kharijites - were separatists from the army of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the son-in-law and cousin of Mohammed. Ibn Muljam, a Kharijite, is blamed for his murder. The Kharijites believe that being a Muslim is equivalent to salvation, that there is no salvation for sin, that all non-Kharijites are sinners, that all sinners are apostates, and that all apostates should be put to death. Takfiris are Muslims who view all Westerners as kafirs (infidels).

7. Claims from American Hamas experts that the result of this month's parliamentary vote was as much of a surprise to Hamas as it was to the US are simply wrong. In more recent meetings (held in Beirut in the immediate aftermath of the parliamentary vote), Hamas leaders confirmed, however, that they purposely played down their expectations of a clear parliamentary victory over fears that the US and Israel would press Palestinian President Abu Mazen to cancel the elections until Fatah could gain more strength.

Tomorrow: Handing victory to the extremists

Alastair Crooke and Mark Perry are the co-directors of Conflicts Forum, a London-based group dedicated to providing an opening to political Islam. Crooke is the former Middle East adviser to European Union High Representative Javier Solana and served as a staff member of the Mitchell Commission investigating the causes of the second intifada. Perry is a Washington, DC-based political consultant, author of six books on US history, and a former personal adviser to Yasser Arafat.

(Copyright 2006 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing .)


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Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

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HOW TO LOSE THE 'WAR ON TERROR'
PART 2: Handing victory to the extremists
By Mark Perry and Alastair Crooke

After the writers of this article and our colleagues visited the Middle East for talks with some of the leaders of political Islam (see Part 1: Talking with the 'terrorists', March 31), our work was greeted warily - when even acknowledged - in both the United States and Europe.

We have been accused of "giving legitimacy to terrorist organizations", of "suffering from the Stockholm syndrome", of being "naive and soft", of treading on ground where only "more

realistic, experienced and trained diplomats" have a right to go, and of being "apologists for violence". The US administration has insisted that we make it clear that our program does not have its approval or even tacit endorsement.

We repeatedly sought a meeting with US officials to brief them on our work, but were told that such a meeting "would be seen as a confirmation that you are acting on our behalf as some kind of back channel - which you are not". The message to us was repeated several times by a number of officials: "The United States is not talking with terrorists, we will not talk to terrorists and we do not endorse or in any way support those who do." We have agreed that we would make it clear: we do not represent anyone but ourselves. This has been plain to all our interlocutors from the outset.

But we adamantly reject the view that our willingness to engage in "an exercise in mutual listening" with Islamist organizations gives them legitimacy. They already have legitimacy. The Muslim Brotherhood (the most recognizable as well as the oldest pan-Islamic party in the region) is the most widely respected Islamist organization in the Middle East and the second-largest party in the Egyptian legislature, Jamaat e-Islami is the most powerful and respected elected opposition to the Pervez Musharraf government in Pakistan, Hezbollah forms the second-largest bloc in the Lebanese parliament, and Hamas is now the majority party in the Palestinian Authority. In southern Lebanon and in the West Bank and Gaza, the largest proportion of constituent services - in health care, child care, education and employment - is conducted under the auspices of Hezbollah and Hamas, respectively.

The question of legitimacy is important because for democracies, legitimacy is not conferred, but earned at the ballot box. Hamas and Hezbollah would welcome a dialogue with the West not because it would confer "legitimacy" - they already have that - but because such a dialogue would acknowledge the differences between Islamist movements that represent actual constituencies from those (such as al-Qaeda and its allied movements) that represent no one.

Are we captives of our own process? There is no question that our engagement with political Islamists has led us to argue strenuously that US and European diplomats follow our lead. It is true that we have been impressed by the political sophistication of our interlocutors, their willingness to discuss complex political questions, to work to shift perceptions of their movements and their movements' goals. We suppose it possible (though we believe it unlikely), that we have been courted and misled by master terrorists who have maliciously entrapped us in their web of lies.

But it seemed to us when we began this process that the gamble of being lied to was worth taking, and a far better alternative to not talking at all. Then too, there is no monopoly on lying, and it is certainly not the sole province of Islamists. Diplomacy, at its heart, is a process of deciphering the real from the imagined. Of course, foreign governments and movements lie to the United States and to its allies: lying is often a significant part of the delicate calculus of managing a sophisticated foreign policy, and should not be viewed as an insuperable obstacle to political engagement. Given the current increasing instability in the Middle East, conducting a discourse with movements or governments that we find distasteful could prove a useful substitute for implementing policies that have no chance of working because they are based on what we believe, and not what we know.

By our calculation, the West has only three options in dealing with Islamist organizations: we can bomb them, we can ignore them, or we can talk to them. By now the evidence should be clear: the first option has not and cannot work, while the second is simply a defense of intellectual laziness - how can we possibly know whether our political assumptions are correct unless they are tested?

In the 1980s, US president Ronald Reagan engaged in an exchange with Soviet leaders - and even concluded substantive agreements with them - telling critics that a person who held fast to the rule of "trust but verify" could not be duped. The US talked to the leaders of the Soviet Union when its leader banged his shoe on the table at the United Nations and vowed to destroy the United States. The US talked to the Soviet Union through four decades of confrontation. And Americans talked to the Soviets even when they had thousands of missiles trained on the US homeland. The Islamists have none.

Are we - the delegates who conducted the meetings (detailed in Part 1) - naive?

Our most recent and more private exchange with the leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah took place in the immediate aftermath of the Palestinian elections. During the week that we spent in Beirut, no fewer than five workshops and conferences were held in Washington, DC, on the implications of the Hamas electoral victory, which included discussions of the group's political program and its leadership. A number of those experts were invited to join our delegation. All refused.

So too, one of America's most highly regarded experts on Hamas acknowledged to us personally that he had "never met one of them", though he has written innumerable papers and monographs describing their views and held conferences on who they are and "what they want".

There is certainly a price to pay for talking with proscribed organizations, as any diplomat who had contact with the Palestine Liberation Organization in the 1970s will attest. But the price for not engaging with these organizations has recently proved more costly: US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice admitted publicly that she was "stunned" by a Hamas victory that anyone with any experience on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza could have (and in fact did) predict. How could she have gotten it wrong? One of the reasons may well be that State Department employees are barred from entering Gaza, and have been for five years. The reason? Americans have been attacked in Gaza - though by Fatah, not by Hamas.

Is diplomacy best left to diplomats? The West's most senior diplomats are wedded to the principle that speaking to "terrorists" is out of the question. The case was best put by former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar, during a visit to the White House in May 2002. [1] "But [what] I would like to say once again is that we can establish no differences among terrorists. They're all the same. They're all seeking to destroy our harmonious co-existence, to destroy civilization. They're seeking to destroy our democracy and freedoms."

Aznar's view has gained widespread acceptance in the international community. On February 6, 2004, Russian President Vladimir Putin endorsed Aznar's views: "But the commonly accepted international principle of fighting terror is an unconditional refusal to hold any dialogue with terrorists, as any contact with bandits and terrorists [encourages] them to commit new, even bloodier crimes. Russia has not done this, and will not do this in the future." [2] In spite of this, Putin was the first major world leader to break ranks with the West in recognizing Hamas - thereafter inviting its leaders for consultations in Moscow.

Putin's decision was undoubtedly the result of his anger with former senior US diplomats who not only criticized him for failing to grant Chechnya even "limited sovereignty", but who established a high-profile Washington-based non-governmental organization to push for "a peaceful resolution of the conflict". The American Committee for Peace in the Caucasus (ACPC) - whose board members include some of Washington's more high-profile neo-conservatives - was founded, in part, to pressure Putin to convene "private 'Track II' talks between representatives of the Russian government and Chechen resistance ..." [3]

ACPC's public advocacy of a "private" dialogue is not only a contravention of the nearly unanimous view among diplomats that you should not talk to terrorists, but confirmation that (at least when it comes to Chechnya) not all terrorists "are the same". Some, it seems, are thought to have legitimate grievances, a viewpoint put forward by Richard Pipes, who castigated Putin in the pages of the New York Times for failing to understand that Chechen violence is the result of Russian oppression. Diplomacy, Pipes argued, was the one way to resolve the conflict, as "there is always room for compromise". [4]

The United States and its allies have certainly proved capable of following Putin's lead. Soon after America's occupation of Iraq, the US attempted to open a dialogue with the Shi'ite movement Hezb al-Da'wa al-Islamiyya. In the heady days following America's triumphant race across southern Iraq, a US-Da'wa engagement held out hope for a useful alliance between those in the US government who wished to overthrow Saddam Hussein and a movement that had fought him for more than 25 years.

The problem, of course, was that the US had once been allied to Saddam's Ba'athist regime and so was targeted by Da'wa's military wing. A suicide bombing carried out by the group in 1983 in Kuwait (reputed to be the first suicide bombing in the Middle East of the modern era) against the French and US embassies in Kuwait killed three French nationals and three Americans. Oddly, Da'wa had never been listed as a proscribed terrorist organization by the US State Department (though it was tied directly to Iran, which was and is considered a state sponsor or terrorism), while Iraq was removed from the terrorism list in 1982 and added, again, in 1990. (Nelson Mendela was removed from the list in 2003.) "Today Al-Da'wa and its sympathizers distance the activist party and movement from these 'aberrations'," Middle East analyst Mahan Abaden wrote in the Beirut Daily Star in 2003. "They contend, with some justification, that the attacks were the works of rogue elements hijacked by Iranian intelligence." [5]

The leaders of political Islam know this history quite well, and so have concluded that Americans' talk of values and democracy and peace is actually a cover for the promotion of US interests. In 1982 it was in US interest to support Saddam Hussein. Today, it is in US interest to speak to the leaders of the Da'wa party, particularly since its leader, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, is Iraq's prime minister.

There exist a small but substantial number of extreme Islamists who not only refuse any and all engagements with the West, but who also target those in their own communities who seek a broader set of contacts and accommodation. These takfiris take as their touchstone the view that all Westerners are kafirs - infidels - whose remorseless political and religious goals are bent on conquest and domination. "They're all the same." Those Muslims who talk with these kafirs are viewed as irtidad (apostates) and are outside of the protection of the community. The takfiris are exclusivists, claiming a special hold on the truth.

Moderate Islamists have long condemned this takfiri trend. Writing in 1935, Maulana Maudoodi (the founder of Pakistan's Jamaat e-Islami, one of the groups with whom we met in Beirut), warned of the dangers of those who call others "wrongdoers". It is, he said "not merely the violation of the rights of an individual, rather it is also a crime against society". [6]

So too, it seems, Western takfiris would deny any and all contacts and accommodation with political Islam and condemn those who engage in them.

One of our principal purposes in engaging with the leaders of political Islam is to stimulate a new and more rigorous understanding of armed political action, its causes and its varied nature, and to distinguish between it and "terrorism". There is no question that two of the groups with whom we spoke - Hamas and Hezbollah - have adopted violent tactics to forward their political goals. They are not alone: Fatah (whose candidates for election the US supported with US$2 million in campaign funds) continues to use violence (and kidnap Westerners), so do the Tamil Tigers, so did the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and the African National Congress. So too does the United States. America's insistence that Hamas and Hezbollah "renounce violence" and "disarm" is dismissed by these groups as not only an invitation to surrender but, in light of the continuing and increasingly indefensible use of alarmingly disproportionate US and British firepower in Iraq, the rankest hypocrisy.

The West's seeming abhorrence of violence is derived from its deeply rooted belief that political change is possible without it. But defending this proposition requires an extraordinary exercise in historical amnesia.

While we Americans proudly point to the civil-rights movement as an example of how non-violence can successfully enable dispossessed peoples to grab the levers of change, history shows that those same levers were made available as the result of previous, often quite bloody, conflicts - in the case of the civil rights movement a brutal civil war that left 638,000 Americans dead. Nor was America's civil-rights movement as non-violent as it may seem from this distance: the moderation of Dr Martin Luther King Jr was opposed by a portion of the black American community who vowed that they would change the nation "by any means necessary" and who claimed that "violence is as American as cherry pie".

Whether we want to admit it or not, history shows that political change is most often the result of political pain: the owners of Montgomery, Alabama's transit system did not agree to integrate their buses because they suddenly ceased being racists, but because they were going out of business. Nor, once the right to vote was won, was the civil-rights movement ended. The fight for equality has been long and often agonizing, and it is not yet finished.

So too, as America's most recent actions in Iraq attest, the US policymakers would certainly not reject the proposition that violence (albeit, as President George W Bush continues to attest, "only as a last resort") is often used to defend US interests or promote US views.

So while we Americans hold to the belief that the ballot box offers the best way to effect change, we must acknowledge that history shows that change is most often painful and usually bloody.

The leaders of major Islamist organizations view the issue of violence in the same way Americans do - as a legitimate option that is applied to establish deterrence and stability and to defend and promote their interests. For Hamas and Hezbollah, "armed resistance" is a way of balancing the asymmetry of force available to Israel. Both groups place their use of violence in a political context.

"Armed resistance is not simply a tool that we use to respond to Israeli aggression," a Hamas leader averred. "It gives our people confidence that they are being defended, that they have an identity, that someone is trying to balance the scales."

Hezbollah puts this idea in the same political context: "It may be that some day we will have to sit down across from our enemies and talk to them about a political settlement. That could happen," reflected Nawaf Mousawi, the chief of the Hezbollah's foreign relations department. "But no political agreement will be possible until they respect us. I want them to know that when they're sitting there across from us that if they decide to get up and walk away, they'll have to pay a price."

The West's insistence that opening a political dialogue be preceded by and conditioned on disarmament is simply unrealistic: it suggests that we believe that "our" violence is benevolent while "theirs" is unreasoning and random - that a 19-year-old rifle-toting American in Fallujah is somehow less dangerous than a 19-year-old Shi'ite in southern Lebanon.

In fact, political agreements have rarely been preceded by disarmament. United Nations demands for the disarmament of the South West Africa People's Organization (SWAPO) in 1978 unraveled a conflict-ending political agreement (a situation put right when the rebels were allowed to keep their weapons), and Northern Ireland's "Good Friday Agreement" allowed the IRA to keep its weapons until a political process (leading to "decommissioning") reflecting their concerns was put in place.

The West often views Islamic violence as random and unreasoning, but Hamas and Hezbollah believe that violence can shift practical political considerations to create a psychology in which armed groups can use the tool of de-escalation as a way of forwarding a political process. That is to say, absent a political agreement, Hamas and Hezbollah will not voluntarily abandon what they view as their only defense against the overwhelming weight of Israeli military power.

Disarmament (or "demilitarization") is possible: it worked in Northern Ireland and South Africa. When coupled with substantive political talks, the unification of armed elements into a single security or military force - demilitarization - provides the best hope for increased stability and security in Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza.

As a part of our program with Hamas and Hezbollah, we invited John Lord Alderdice to Beirut to brief the groups on how demilitarization might work in their societies. Lord Alderdice helped to negotiate the "Good Friday Agreements" in Northern Ireland that "decommissioned" the IRA and allowed, among other things, for Catholic policing of Catholic neighborhoods and the recomposition of a more representative Ulster Constabulary. Hezbollah leaders have acknowledged that they would be willing to undertake a process of demilitarization that would allow Shi'ite officers to hold more senior level officer positions in the Lebanese army, while Hamas leaders have openly talked of creating a national army - thereby acknowledging the importance of the "one commander, one security service, one gun" solution promoted by the Bush administration.

Demilitarization is not a panacea, it does not work always and in every case, but it holds out greater hope for long-term stability and security than conditioning peace on requirements that cannot be met.

The Israel problem
Despite their sometimes deep and abiding organizational, historical and religious differences, all of the Islamist groups with whom we spoke claimed that a resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would do more than any other single event to calm and stabilize the region. But while the US, Israel and their allies insist that "recognition" of Israel be a starting point for any dialogue between the West and political Islam, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat e-Islami insist that recognition must be the end point of a political process - not its beginning.

They forcefully and correctly point out that America's insistence on Israel's recognition has never been a condition for any previous dialogue: the US and its allies maintained relations with president Abdul Nasser, president Hafez al-Assad, King Fahd ibn Abdul Aziz, and King Hussein (and even shipped arms to Tehran), when Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan (and Iran) not only refused to speak with Israeli leaders, but vowed to destroy their state. In fact, the United States maintained diplomatic relations with these nations precisely because it thought it might end their conflict with Israel. In two cases - with Egypt and Jordan - it worked.

The argument that "things changed after September 11, 2001" seems almost perverse. Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat e-Islami (as well as Syria and Iran) denounced the attack, expressed their support for the US war against al-Qaeda and even, in the case of Tehran, offered US rescue helicopters on missions in Afghanistan emergency landing rights in Iran.

The leaders with whom we spoke are offended by claims that what they call their "resistance to Israeli aggression" has led to recurring charges of anti-Semitism. "We are not fighting against Jews," Hamas leaders repeatedly argued. "Our argument is with Israel."

In the case of Hezbollah, a number of the delegates to our meetings pointed out that the Hezbollah television station Al-Manar openly broadcast a "documentary" on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" - a Christian, not Muslim, invention. References to the "documentary" were met with an embarrassed acknowledgement by our Hezbollah interlocutor: "I did not know it was going to air until I saw it," he said. "I am sorry it was aired." A number of delegates were unimpressed by this apology: "It does not make it okay," one said.

Claims that Al-Manar regularly broadcasts "anti-Semitic" videotapes showing Muslim "martyrs" celebrating before a backdrop of Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque, however, brought a swift denial: "The videos we air are not anti-Jewish, do not call for the destruction of the Jewish religion, and are not anti-Semitic. We have a right to extol those who sacrifice themselves in our defense. You do the same."

The same claims are made of Hamas. In our first exchange in March last year, Hamas leaders were accused of supporting anti-Semitism by including "The Protocols" on their website. Our interlocutors seemed more puzzled than offended by the charge, as if unaware of the Protocols' appearance. But they pledged to look into the claim.

In March of this year, Hamas leader Usamah Hamdan responded to the charge by noting that the Hamas website to which we referred in our initial charge was actually designed and owned by a Cairo firm that was not affiliated with the movement. The Hamas leadership, he said, was "working to resolve the problem". As of this writing, the offending website (hamasonline.com) has been replaced with a nondescript website that includes links to both an anti-Hamas article and "Jewish Singles".

Nor, it seems, is Hamas' view of its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, inviolable: "It is not the Koran, it can be amended," a Hamas leader has said.

Still, the charges of Hamas' anti-Semitism have proliferated. In a recent article in The New Yorker, David Remnick castigated Hamas for its open ties to the Muslim religious tradition that dictates that the territory of Palestine is a part of the Islamic waqf - the endowment promised to Muslims by God - and that "to relinquish any part of the land" is "forbidden". [7]

But Hamas is not the only religious-based political movement that claims that all of Palestine was given by God. For Jews, as well as for the Zionist movement, there is a parallel theological belief that the Land of Israel was given to Jews for all time - from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, from southern Syria to the Sinai Peninsula. The creation of a Jewish state in all of Eretz Yisrael (a phrase included in "The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel" read to the public by David Ben Gurion on May 14, 1948) has always been a fundamental part of Jewish aspirations, to be realized, as one recent American visitor with a Hamas leader recently described it, "in God's time".

Hamas has little problem with such aspirations, so long as they are not translated into settlements and land confiscations, which preempt "God's work" and negate the eschatological nature of religious beliefs.

Hamas is as unlikely to disavow its aspirations for creating a Muslim state in all of Palestine as Israel is unlikely to cease calling the West Bank "Judea and Samaria" - geographic descriptions that Palestinians consider inflammatory and, they claim, evidence that Israel is dedicated to realizing its religiously ordained aspirations.

All of this may seem to be logic-chopping. The real question remains: Is it possible for the leaders of political Islam to recognize Israel, to acknowledge and live in peace with a Jewish state that has been established in the midst of the Muslim wafq?

On this question all Islamic leaders seem united: "The end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in the hands of our brothers in Palestine," Nawaf Mousawi said. "When they say it is over, it will be over." The leaders of the other groups with whom we met agree, saying that while their support for Palestine is constant and unquestioned, it is no use "being more Palestinian than the Palestinians".

For the United States and its allies, on the other hand, "recognition" of Israel - and not participation in free, open and fair elections - is a requirement for the acceptance of a Hamas-led government into the community of nations. But for Hamas, the recognition of Israel is not a pro forma political abstraction, but a vitally crucial issue. They point out that "recognition" is the province of states and that, therefore, the recognition of Israel should come when there is a Palestinian state that represents the will of the Palestinian people and has the same international standing as the State of Israel. Hamas leaders also believe that simple "recognition" of Israel will not yield any tangible changes in the status of Palestinians, let alone Hamas - that the US response will be (as one Hamas leader said, mimicking a US leader): "Fine, but that's not enough. Now, you must ..."

In their most recent statements Hamas leaders have been quite insistent: recognition of Israel is dependent on the recognition of Palestinian rights. That is to say, Hamas will consider recognizing Israel when Israel acknowledges UN resolutions calling for a withdrawal of those territories occupied by Israel in 1967. Put simply: measures taken by Israel in the West Bank without Palestinian consent are illegal and any future negotiation with Israel must take the pre-1967 situation as their starting point.

In fact, this is a reflection of the position enunciated by President Bush last May 26 in an address given during a visit to the White House by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas: "Any final status agreement must be reached between the two parties," Bush said, "and changes to the 1949 Armistice lines must be mutually agreed to."

Bush's words are vitally important. If the Palestinian do not agree with the final borders proposed by Israel, the conflict will not be resolved. In effect, the Palestinian have the right to veto Israel's final status proposal if they don't like it - and so maintain, by such a veto, their unwillingness to come to a final political settlement with Israel. So Bush agrees with the Islamists: the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be over when the Palestinians agree that it is over. And not before.

Moderation under attack
The seeming intractability of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been exacerbated by America's insistence that its allies in Europe and in the region withhold funding for the new Palestinian government until Hamas recognizes Israel (and renounces terrorism, and disarms, and ...).

To America's failure to foresee Iyad Allawi's defeat in Iraqi elections, to predict Hamas' electoral victory, and to isolate Hezbollah we may now add yet another failure: Condoleezza Rice's failure to gain support from Egypt and Saudi Arabia to cease their assistance to the Palestinian people. Rice's plea to Egypt and Saudi Arabia to stand with the US in its refusal to fund a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority was resoundingly and loudly rejected by Hosni Mubarak and King Abdullah.

Instead of isolating Hamas, the United States has isolated itself: not only did President Putin host a visit by Hamas leaders in Moscow, a number of European nations (as well as a growing number of senior Israeli officials) are now quietly suggesting a reassessment of being identified with the US program for the region, and are seeking ways to talk with Islamist leaders whose legitimacy is the result of a popular mandate.

The differences in approach are not simply a reflection of Europe's continued criticism of the Bush administration's decision to shape a "coalition of the willing" to invade Iraq, it is rooted in geographic realities: Muslims constitute Europe's single most important and powerful minority constituency. Europe's decision to respond more positively to Islamist concerns is also, quite obviously, the result of widespread Muslim rioting in France, the burning of European embassies in the Arab world, and an admission among European leaders that they must take steps to fight Muslim intolerance in their own societies. While European leaders initially defended the right of a Danish magazine to publish cartoons lampooning Mohammed, their most recent actions betray a discomfort with their defense of the publication of the caricatures because of the Western value of "freedom of speech" - a value that was once cited as a just defense of Julius Streicher's "right" to publish virulent anti-Semitic caricatures in Der Sturmer.

A discussion of Middle East realities also inevitably touches on George W Bush's call for greater democracy in the region, a vision fatally undermined by Secretary of State Rice's imprecation that the United States will never deal with a Hamas-led Palestine, whether elected or not. Rice's lecture tour of Middle Eastern capitals is not only the most recent evidence for the Bush administration's inability, or perhaps unwillingness, to differentiate among Islamist groups, it threatens to undermine fatally the central pillar of America's message to Muslims from Egypt to Pakistan - that democracy provides the last best hope for the realization of people's dreams. Inadvertently that democracy message is being undermined by US policies, which are pushing Middle Eastern moderates into the arms of the region's takfiris - those who view any compromise with the West as apostasy.

More specifically, America's failure to talk with, or simply listen closely to, those groups who depend for their legitimacy on the support of their constituencies will swing the pendulum of the Islamist revolution far beyond the views enunciated by Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood or Jamaat e-Islami. It has happened before.

In 1792, the architects of the French Revolution found themselves under attack. For three years the leaders of the Gironde - Jacques-Pierre Brissot, Marguerite-Elie Guadet and Pierre-Victurnien Vergniaud - had served as the vanguard for national change. The Gironde represented France's professional classes: businessmen, academics, lawyers and writers. They were viewed as defenders of authority and order. The transformations they authored were breathtaking: they struck down aristocratic preferments, convened a national convention, and made the king answerable to the people. But in the summer of 1792, these three leaders of the Gironde, and 18 of their colleagues, were purged from the convention, tried by a Revolutionary Tribunal and guillotined before the jeering people of Paris. Their sin? They not only opposed the "Enrages" - the revolutionary "madmen" of the Paris Jacobean Club who would "burn France to ashes" - they expressed their admiration for England's government, with its elections and House of Commons.

The slippage from moderation to terror that seized France in 1792 is chillingly familiar to any discerning observer of America's relations with Islam since September 11, 2001. Stunned by the attack on its cities and institutions, the US government justifiably struck back at al-Qaeda, destroying much of its network, interdicting its funding, and identifying and jailing its supporters. The US was supported by the entire planet. While it would have not have taken much political sophistication for British prime minister William Pitt to differentiate between the Gironde and the Jacobeans, his failure to do so - evinced by his description of the Gironde as "regicides" followed by his mobilization of the British army - sent them to the block. Like the stiff and unbending Pitt, who saw little difference between the Gironde and their enemies on the left, the Bush administration has lumped Muslim revivalists, who admire democracy and reform and want it for themselves, with the Middle East's revolutionaries - who want to burn the region to ashes.

A more recent historical example shows how the US and the West might find a way out of this morass. In 1947, US president Harry Truman directed the Central Intelligence Agency to fund European socialist movements that supported democracy. He did so not because he was "soft on communism" or a "fellow traveler" (the accusation made at the time), but because he was able to differentiate between those European movements that believed in democracy and those that didn't. Truman calculated that marginalizing European socialists would force them into the communist camp. Truman's strategy, carried out over a period of decades, worked - breaking off moderate European Marxists from their more revolutionary and violent co-religionists.

So too, while talking to or even dealing with Hezbollah, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat e-Islami might seem an apostasy to some, including them on the same list of proscribed organizations as al-Qaeda confuses those groups open to adopting the values we espouse with those with whom there can be no accommodation. Being able to differentiate between political movements and currents and exploiting them to our benefit in order to spread democracy is not making a pact with the devil, it's called diplomacy - and at its heart is a willingness to talk with groups and political parties to find a common ground to fight a common enemy.

The new Jacobins
The United States and its European allies have declared war on terrorism. Yet the policies that the West has instituted in this war are not leading to increased security for its people or societies. Rather, in failing to differentiate between "revivalists" and "revolutionaries", between those who are willing to submit their program to a vote of their people and those who won't - ever - the West is inexorably pushing this great middle ground into the arms of the takfiris, into the arms of Islam's Jacobins.

The failure to differentiate between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, between Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah and Jordanian extremist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, is the failure to differentiate between those who seek an accommodation with the West and those who work for an unremitting and uncompromising clash. The solution is not simply to begin talking to political Islam - "we don't want you to talk", a Hamas leader told us, "we want you to listen" - but rather to begin the necessary process of questioning our own assumptions: that "they" are "all the same". If we fail to begin this vital work now we will soon see Mecca "burn". And it won't stop there.

What is perhaps most surprising about what we have learned in our "exercise of mutual listening" is not that our views are radical, but that they reinforce Western society's best instincts, including those of George W Bush. In a speech before the International Republican Institute last May, the US president laid out his vision for democracy in the Middle East.

"Today, much of our focus is on the broader Middle East, because I understand that 60 years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in that region did nothing to make us safe," he said. "If the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation and resentment and violence ready for export.

"The United States has adopted a new policy, a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East; a strategy that recognizes the best way to defeat the ideology that uses terror as a weapon is to spread freedom and democracy."

We agree.

Notes
1. "President Bush meets with European leaders", The White House, May 2, 2002.

2. "Press Statements and Answers to Questions after the Completion of Russian-Azerbaijan Talks", Moscow, February 6, 2004.

3. Included on the board of the American Committee for Peace in the Caucasus are Elliott Abrams, Kenneth Adelman, Frank Gaffney, Max Kampelman, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Norman Podhoretz, and James Woolsey, among many others.

4. "Give the Chechens a land of their own", Richard Pipes, New York Times, September 9, 2004.

5. "Deal with Al-Da'wa and its controversial legacy", Mahan Abaden, Daily Star (Beirut), July 3, 2004.

6. "Fitna-I Takfir" (Mischief of Takfir), Maulauna Maudoodi, Tarjuman al-Quran, May 1935.

7. "The Democracy Game", David Remnick, The New Yorker, February 27, 2006.

Alastair Crooke and Mark Perry are the co-directors of Conflicts Forum, a London-based group dedicated to providing an opening to political Islam. Crooke is the former Middle East adviser to European Union High Representative Javier Solana and served as a staff member of the Mitchell Commission investigating the causes of the second intifada. Perry is a Washington, DC-based political consultant, author of six books on US history, and a former personal adviser to Yasser Arafat.

(Copyright 2006 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing .)

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America The Fearful</font>

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<b>by Bob Herbert

|May 15, 2006 | pg. A.21 |</b>

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.h...M3WM3mQ2A,Q7B,mQ7B3WMQ20_Q27C_Q27iZQ20iQ22Q7D


In the dark days of the Depression, Franklin Roosevelt counseled Americans to avoid fear. George W. Bush is his polar opposite. The public's fear is this president's most potent political asset. Perhaps his only asset.

Mr. Bush wants ordinary Americans to remain in a perpetual state of fear -- so terrified, in fact, that they will not object to the steady erosion of their rights and liberties, and will not notice the many ways in which their fear is being manipulated to feed an unconscionable expansion of presidential power.

If voters can be kept frightened enough of terrorism, they might even overlook the monumental incompetence of one of the worst administrations the nation has ever known.

Four marines drowned Thursday when their 60-ton tank rolled off a bridge and sank in a canal about 50 miles west of Baghdad. Three American soldiers in Iraq were killed by roadside bombs the same day. But those tragic and wholly unnecessary deaths were not the big news. The big news was the latest leak of yet another presidential power grab: the administration's collection of the telephone records of tens of millions of American citizens.

The Bush crowd, which gets together each morning to participate in a highly secret ritual of formalized ineptitude, is trying to get its creepy hands on all the telephone records of everybody in the entire country. It supposedly wants these records, which contain crucial documentation of calls for Chinese takeout in Terre Haute, Ind., and birthday greetings to Grandma in Talladega, Ala., to help in the search for Osama bin Laden.

Hey, the president has made it clear that when Al Qaeda is calling, he wants to be listening, and you never know where that lead may turn up.

The problem (besides the fact that the president has been as effective hunting bin Laden as Dick Cheney was in hunting quail) is that in its fearmongering and power-grabbing the Bush administration has trampled all over the Constitution, the democratic process and the hallowed American tradition of government checks and balances.

Short of having them taken away from us, there is probably no way to fully appreciate the wonder and the glory of our rights and liberties here in the United States, including the right to privacy.

The Constitution and the elaborate system of checks and balances were meant to protect us against the possibility of a clownish gang of small men and women amassing excessive power and behaving like tyrants or kings. But the normal safeguards have not been working since the Bush crowd came to power, starting with the hijacked presidential election in 2000.

After the Sept. 11 attacks, all bets were off. John Kennedy once said, ''The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war.'' But George W. Bush, employing an outrageous propaganda campaign (''Shock and awe,'' ''We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud''), started an utterly pointless war in Iraq that he still doesn't know how to win or how to end.

If you listen to the Bush version of reality, the president is all powerful. In that version, we are fighting a war against terrorism, which is a war that will never end. And as long as we are at war (forever), there is no limit to the war-fighting powers the president can claim as commander in chief.

So we've kidnapped people and sent them off to be tortured in the extraordinary rendition program; and we've incarcerated people at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere without trial or even the right to know the charges against them; and we're allowing the C.I.A. to operate super-secret prisons where God-knows-what-all is going on; and we're listening in on the phone calls and reading the e-mail of innocent Americans without warrants; and on and on and on.

The Bushies will tell you that it is dangerous and even against the law to inquire into these nefarious activities. We just have to trust the king.

Well, I give you fair warning. This is a road map to totalitarianism. Hallmarks of totalitarian regimes have always included an excessive reliance on secrecy, the deliberate stoking of fear in the general population, a preference for military rather than diplomatic solutions in foreign policy, the promotion of blind patriotism, the denial of human rights, the curtailment of the rule of law, hostility to a free press and the systematic invasion of the privacy of ordinary people.

There are not enough pretty words in all the world to cover up the damage that George W. Bush has done to his country. If the United States could look at itself in a mirror, it would be both alarmed and ashamed at what it saw.
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Re: America The Fearful

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Stuck With Bush</font>

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<b>by Bob Herbert

|April 27, 2006 | pg. A.27 |</b>

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.h...lITmwzzTIheeQ23IeQ25IhAIzyKcKzcIhAD-wl-wTnDTR)


If George W. Bush could have been removed from office for being a bad president, he would have been sent back to his ranch a long time ago.

If incompetence were a criminal offense, he'd be behind bars.

But that's just daydreaming. The reality is that there are more than two and a half years left in the long dark night of the Bush presidency -- nearly as long as the entire time John Kennedy was in office.

The nation seems, very belatedly, to be catching on to the tragic failures and monumental ineptitude of its president. Mr. Bush's poll numbers are abysmal. Republicans up for re-election are running from him as if he were the bogyman.

Callers to conservative talk radio programs who were once ecstatic about the president and his policies are now deeply disillusioned.

The libertarian Cato Institute is about to release a study titled ''Power Surge: The Constitutional Record of George W. Bush.'' It says, ''Unfortunately, far from defending the Constitution, President Bush has repeatedly sought to strip out the limits the document places on federal power.'' While I disagree with parts of the study, I certainly agree with that particular comment.

In the current issue of Rolling Stone, Sean Wilentz, a distinguished historian and the director of the American Studies program at Princeton University, takes a serious look at the possibility that Mr. Bush may be the worst president in the nation's history.

What in the world took so long? Some of us have known since the moment he hopped behind the wheel that this reckless president was driving the nation headlong toward a cliff.

The worst thing he did, of course, was to employ a massive campaign of deceit to lead the nation into a catastrophic war in Iraq -- a war with no end in sight that has already claimed tens of thousands of lives and inflicted scores of thousands of crippling injuries.

When he was a young man, Mr. Bush used the Air National Guard to hide out from the draft in a time of war. Then, as president, he's suddenly G. I. George, strutting around in a flight suit, threatening to wage war on all and sundry, and taunting the insurgents in Iraq with a cry of ''bring them on.''

When the nation needed leadership on the critical problem of global warming, Mr. Bush took his cues from the honchos in the oil and gasoline industry, the very people who were setting the planet on fire. Now he talks about overcoming the nation's addiction to oil! This is amazing. Here's the president of the United States scaling the very heights of chutzpah. The Bush people and the oil people are indistinguishable. Condoleezza Rice, a former Chevron director, even had an oil tanker named after her.

Among the complaints in the Cato study is that the Bush administration has taken the position that despite validly enacted laws to the contrary, the president cannot be restrained ''from pursuing any tactic he believes to be effective in the war on terror.''

This view has led to activities that I believe have brought great shame to the nation: the warrantless spying on Americans, the abuses at Abu Ghraib, the creation of the C.I.A.'s network of secret prisons, extraordinary rendition and the barbaric encampment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in which detainees are held, without regard to guilt or innocence, in a nightmarish no man's land beyond the reach of any reasonable judicial process.

The sins of the Bush administration are so extensive and so egregious, they could never be adequately addressed in a newspaper column. History will be the final judge. But I've no doubt about the ultimate verdict.

Remember the Clinton budget surplus?

It was the largest in American history. President Bush and his cronies went after it like vultures feasting in a field of carcasses. They didn't invest the surplus. They devoured it.

Remember how most of the world responded with an extraordinary outpouring of sympathy and support for America in the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11?

Mr. Bush had no idea how to seize that golden opportunity to build new alliances and strengthen existing ones. Much of that solidarity with America has morphed into outright hostility.

Remember Katrina?

The major task of Congress and the voters for the remainder of the Bush presidency is to curtail the destructive impulses of this administration, and to learn the lessons that will prevent similar horrors from ever happening again.
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Re: America The Fearful

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Keith Olbermann bitch slaps & stomps on Incorrigible liar and RepubliKlan propagandist O'Reilly.
This clip is a classic peeps.
"Reality Based" versus <s>"FAITH</s> Fake Based" media.</b></font>

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perm link for video:http://www.canofun.com/cof/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16111&mid=97623</b>

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Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Good find. I kinda feel everybody has their own interest they are looking after.

"they hate our freedom" and that kinda of stupid talk along with "death to all americans" does broaden it out a little to much.

Binnys main problem came from the first gulf war and americans being called instead of his soldiers who fought the soviets, then them staying on "holy land", before that as they say in the hood....we was cool.

Hezzy was created cause of israel.

Sodam didnt like binny, binny didnt like sodam. sodam didnt like iran, iran doesnt like sodam. Sodam would pay suicide bombers families BUT never armed them, which he could of.

Iran also funds the same group. Two enemies with one common interest.

Fucking shit is like a soap opera, but to fight it you first cannot just fight. you must understand what creates the problem.

Alot of fanatics are easily created. Just like its easy to recruit inner city youth to push rock or runaway girls to sell ass its easy to get poor arab youth to become fanatics.

But each leader has their own agenda, much like ours at home.

We can easily buy off some others it may take more. We must not forget binny is a saudi and so were the 9/11 group, and the saudis really hate us, but they are "friends", putting on a smile cause of economics.

As I stated 5 years ago, i dont think people want to understand the enemy or their reasons. There is more money to be made on the war on terror then if there wasnt one.

The war on terror resulted in iraq, which is 250 billion and growing, all that money went to american corps.

WE PAID IT.

somebody is getting paid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why take the time to understand the differences in the groups, why they fight, why they exist if your buddies tell you they will break you off some of that money?

I bet if you polled most americans they would call iranians arabs and think binny, sodam, and them all love each other.

Trust me I dont want to get blowed the fuck up for some shit that aint getting me paid and really doesnt benefit the american people, just a few of us collect that 250 billion, the rest pay it in taxes.

Hezzy has got alot of bad press, but the black panthers did to. But why does hezzy do what it does? why does hamas? Why wouldnt iraqi people fight for their own country?

We have to seriously sit down and ask these questions, well i have, most humanoids havent and are leaders can care less, they getting paid and can get low.

They dont want our corpocracy anymore than we want their theocracy, maybe we should understand that.

We understand it with communist china but not communist cuba.

Shit doesnt make sense at all.
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

How to, become pawn...follow orders of your superiors & hope you won't get caught, doing something that is illegal in the United States, but run of the mill, in a lawless, foreign, Islamic, desert country...

Army Recommends Death in Iraq Slayings
By ALICIA A. CALDWELL
Associated Press Writer
Sat Sep 2, 10:36 PM ET

An Army investigator has recommended that four soldiers accused of murder in a raid in Iraq should face the death penalty if convicted, according to a report obtained Saturday by The Associated Press.

Lt. Col. James P. Daniel Jr. concluded that the slayings were premeditated and warranted the death sentence based on evidence he heard at an August hearing. The case will now be forwarded to Army officials, who will decide whether Daniel's recommendation should be followed.

The soldiers, all from the Fort Campbell, Ky.-based 101st Airborne Division's 187th Infantry Regiment, are accused of killing three Iraqi men taken from a house May 9, on a marshy island outside Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad.

Staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard, Spc. William B. Hunsaker, Pfc. Corey R. Clagett and Spc. Juston R. Graber have claimed they were ordered to "kill all military age males" during the raid on the island. According to statements from some of the soldiers, they were told the target was an al-Qaida training camp.

Hunsaker told investigators that he and Clagett were attacked by the three men, who were being handcuffed, and shot them in self-defense. Clagett said he was hit in the face, and Hunsaker claimed he was stabbed during the attack.

Prosecutors argue the soldiers conspired to kill the men and then altered the scene to fit their story. They contend Girouard stabbed Hunsaker as part of the killing plot.

Clagett, Girouard and Hunsaker also are accused of threatening to kill another soldier who witnessed the slayings. Girouard, the most senior soldier charged, faces several additional charges, including sexual harassment and carrying a personal weapon on duty.

Paul Bergrin, Clagett's civilian attorney, said he was surprised that Daniel recommended the case be taken to trial at all.

"I'm extremely disappointed and disheartened," Bergrin said Saturday. "They are being used as pawns in the war on terror. They followed the rules of engagement. They were confronted with violence by a known al-Qaida training camp member."

Other lawyers in the case, several of whom are deployed to Iraq, did not immediately respond to e-mail requests for comment.

The soldiers are expected to be tried at Fort Campbell. They have been jailed in Kuwait since their arrests this year.

The U.S. military has not executed a soldier since the 1960 hanging of a soldier convicted rape and attempted murder.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060903/ap_on_re_us/iraq_soldiers_charged

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Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Anybody here that wants to hear.....what they really think

Check out the talk show host mike savage AKA savage nation

He is jewish(changed his name)

But one thing he does is excuse all this killing, he thinks it dont happen and IF it does they are only animals.

He just reflects what most people in this country scared to say. He even has a fund for these fucks.

Anyway they gonna lose the war, they so full of hate and dont even know why.

This dude is one of the top conservative hosts and will tell you the white man has no say in this country. HHAAHAHHAAHHA

They are so fucked up THEY WILL LOSE.

savage is an example this war on terror can be filled with bullshit. Alot of white men, even though this country favors them, have alot of hate and blame everybody else for there failures.
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

<font size="5"><center>Who Set the Wayback Machine for 1939?</font size></center>

PH2005062800455.gif

By Eugene Robinson
Washington Post
Tuesday, September 5, 2006; Page A19

With George W. Bush talking so much about Nazis and fascism, Donald Rumsfeld warning ominously against lily-livered appeasement and Dick Cheney quoting Franklin Roosevelt on the "dirty business" of war, one might worry that this direction-challenged administration has wandered into some sort of time warp. Somebody's going to have to break it to them that Churchill and Stalin are gone and the Dodgers don't play in Brooklyn anymore.

Condi Rice seems to be the only one of the so-called Vulcans who missed the memo that it's 1939. When she made her obligatory pilgrimage to the American Legion convention in Salt Lake City last week, she referred to the enemy in the war on terrorism as "violent extremists," which sounds so 2006.

For some reason, Bush and Rumsfeld also decided to drop in on the Legionnaires' 88th yearly gathering. Cheney, meanwhile, was spending quality time with the Veterans of Foreign Wars at their convention in Reno.

Do we discern a pattern? The lavish attention being paid to veterans' groups isn't about what year it is, it's about what month it is. Unless the Republican base is somehow energized and the rest of us somehow scared stiff by November, the Democrats have a decent chance of taking the House of Representatives and even an outside shot at the Senate.

That's where all the administration rhetoric about Nazis, commies, fascism and appeasement has to be coming from, because, absent the political context, it makes no sense. It's all heat and no light.

We can pretty much set aside Cheney's recent remarks, since he's been wandering in the rhetorical wilderness for a long time now. But I can't resist citing one line. He told the VFW that the "Bush Doctrine" is to hold accountable "any person or government that supports, protects or harbors terrorists." So what about the newly installed Iraqi government, with its suspected ties to Shiite death squads? And what about the Pakistani government, which gives the Taliban and al-Qaeda safe harbor?

Okay, one more from Cheney. To those who point out that Iraq wasn't a nexus of terrorism until we invaded, Cheney responds, "They overlook a fundamental fact: We were not in Iraq on September 11th, 2001, and the terrorists hit us anyway."

Huh? The terrorists who attacked on Sept. 11 didn't come from Iraq. Except in Cheney's mind, I don't know where the fact that we were attacked by terrorists trained in Afghanistan (and sent by Osama bin Laden, who's probably now in Pakistan) somehow mitigates the fact that we've made Iraq a hotbed of terrorism.

Back at the American Legion convention, Bush and Rumsfeld were rewriting history. Ever since the president settled on "Islamic fascists" as the enemy in his war on terrorism, he has taken every opportunity to evoke the specter of World War II. We are engaged in "the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century," Bush told the Legionnaires.

Perhaps because the term "fascist" doesn't really describe the transnational jihadist movement, Bush went further with the Legionnaires. He called the jihadists "the successors to fascists, to Nazis, to communists and other totalitarians" as well. The fact is that the jihadists are pretty much sui generis -- they aren't fascists or Nazis and certainly aren't communists, but yes, you could make a good argument for "totalitarians." I guess one out of four isn't bad.

Rumsfeld went furthest of all in claiming that it is, in fact, 1939 -- that the jihadist terror movement presents the same kind of threat to the world that Hitler did when he invaded Poland. He set up a straw man, warning that those who do not see the threat as clearly as he does are as blind as those who tried to appease Hitler. But he doesn't specify who he's talking about. Who wants to appease terrorists? Is it Democrats? Nervous Republicans who've seen the latest polls?

Nobody wants to appease terrorists. But some people have a different idea of how to fight them. The president is right when he says this conflict is unlike other wars, but he seems to miss the essential difference: It has to be fought in a way that doesn't create two new terrorists for each one who is killed.

That's not what the president wants to talk about, though. Between now and November, he wants to talk about a war that we can all agree on, even if it has no bearing on the war being fought today. Yes, Mr. President, Hitler was bad. And your point would be?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/04/AR2006090400698.html
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Humanoids fall for this islamic facist shit. Good for the republicans cause 70% of people fall into the catagory.

The closest thing to hitler is bush, but since he is so dam stubburn and will not back down, that makes humanoids follow him. The whole regime reminds me of the famous eddie murphy skit.......

When he got caught cheating even though his women saw him, he looked her in her eyes and said.....wasnt me!!!!!!

but i saw you come out her house.

"wasnt me".

But i saw your car...

"wasnt me".



Thats bush and his regime, no matter how we try to clear ths mess up they will look you in the face and say a bold faced lie.

They come up with the hitler thing and now are pushing it when in fact americas invasion of iraq is just like germanys invasion of poland, except germany was more competent, remember it took 3 superpowers to defeat it.

Bush stabbed sodam in the back just like hitler did stalin.

Its scary, and their bullshit knows no limits, and just like hitler near the end lost touch with reality and stopped listening to his military leaders and thus lost the war, bush is doing the same.

the Bush regime is writing a how to create terror THEN lose the war on terror for dummies book.
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

hate to say it, but i told you so....

Army: Troops to stay in Iraq until 2010
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer


WASHINGTON - For planning purposes, the Army is gearing up to keep current troop levels in Iraq for another four years, a new indication that conditions there are too unstable to foresee an end to the war.

Gen. Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, cautioned against reading too much into the planning, which is done far in advance to prepare the right mix of combat units for expected deployments. He noted that it is easier to scale back later if conditions allow, than to ramp up if they don't.

"This is not a prediction that things are going poorly or better," Schoomaker told reporters. "It's just that I have to have enough ammo in the magazine that I can continue to shoot as long as they want us to shoot."

Even so, his comments were the latest acknowledgment by Pentagon officials that a significant withdrawal of troops from Iraq is not likely in the immediate future. There are now 141,000 U.S. troops there.

At a Pentagon news conference, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. George Casey, said that as recently as July he had expected to be able to recommend a substantial reduction in U.S. forces by now. But that plan was dropped as sectarian violence in Baghdad escalated.

While arguing that progress is still being made toward unifying Iraq's fractured political rivalries and stabilizing the country, Casey also said the violence amounts to "a difficult situation that's likely to remain that way for some time."

He made no predictions of future U.S. troop reductions.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061012/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

McCain & Military Commanders on troop movement and failure, who to point the finger to when the blame game hits.

Generals put on the spot, wishing they could speak their mind, but....

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Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Audit reveals 14,000 arms given to Iraq are missing
By John Heilprin
Associated Press


WASHINGTON – Nearly one of every 25 weapons the military bought for Iraqi security forces is missing, a government audit said Sunday. Many others cannot be repaired because parts or technical manuals are lacking.

A second report found “significant challenges remain that put at risk” the U.S. military’s goal of strengthening Iraqi security forces by transferring all logistics operations to the defense ministry by the end of 2007.

A third report concerned the Provincial Reconstruction Team program, in which U.S. government experts help Iraqis develop regional governmental institutions. “The unstable security environment in Iraq touches every aspect of the PRT program,” the report said.

The Pentagon cannot account for 14,030 weapons – almost 4 percent of the semiautomatic pistols, assault rifles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenade launchers and other weapons it began supplying to Iraq since the end of 2003, according to a report from the office of the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction.

The missing weapons will not be tracked easily: The Defense Department registered the serial numbers of only about 10,000 of the 370,251 weapons it provided – less than 3 percent.

The Pentagon spent $133 million on the weapons, and “the capacity of the Iraqi government to provide national security and public order is partly contingent on arming the Iraqi security forces, under the ministries of defense and interior,” the report notes. Military officials insisted the weapons either had to be new or never issued to a previous soldier.

By December, the U.S. military had planned to put those weapons in the hands of 325,500 personnel.

Missing from the Defense Department’s inventory books were 13,180 semiautomatic pistols, 751 assault rifles and 99 machine guns, according to an audit requested by Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The audit does not make clear at what point the weapons were lost. But it notes that “there could have been undetected losses” before weapons were ever issued to Iraqi security forces – who also lack many needed spare parts, technical repair manuals and arms maintenance personnel.

The second audit, on logistics capabilities, said there is a “significant risk” that the Iraqi interior ministry “will not be capable of assuming and sustaining logistics support for the Iraqi local and national police forces in the near term.” That support includes equipment maintenance, transportation of people and gear and health resources for soldiers and police.

Army Col. Brian Baldy, chief of staff for the Defense Department operation in Baghdad training Iraqi forces, told auditors he agreed with most of the report’s recommendations to improve weapons accountability. The report calls on the U.S. military to create accurate weapons inventories, fill maintenance positions and tell how to get spare parts.
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

<font size="5"><center>U.S. Losing Information War
Against Muslim Jihadists</font size></center>


Friday, 15 December 2006, 10:39 am
By Sherwood Ross

WASHINGTON, D.C. --- The Army and Marine Corps tomorrow (Dec. 15th) will release a new counterinsurgency field manual that notes how insurgents use the media “to magnify the effects of their actions” and which suggests ways to defeat those efforts.

The manual is already in use in Afghanistan where U.S. units are employing the new tactics against Taliban forces that have started to mount large operations in the Pashto-speaking south, according to a reliable article in an American magazine.

Australian-born Lt.-Col. David Kilcullen, currently working at a high-level counterterrorism post in the U.S. State Department, is quoted as describing the Taliban as essentially an “armed propaganda organization.”

“They switch between guerrilla activity and terrorist activity as they need to, in order to maintain the political momentum, and it’s all about an information operation that generates the perception of an unstoppable, growing insurgency,” Kilcullen told
reporter George Packer of “The New Yorker.”(December 18)

Kilkullen said when insurgents ambush a U.S. convoy in Iraq it’s because “they want spectacular media footage of a burning Humvee.” He adds, “It’s now fundamentally an information fight. The enemy gets that, and we don’t yet get that, and I think that’s why we’re losing.” He said, “If bin Laden didn’t have access to global media, satellite communications, and the Internet, he’d just be a cranky guy in a cave.”

One of the questions raised by Packer’s article, “Knowing The Enemy,” is whether the U.S. can shift its heavy reliance on military operations to community support efforts and inform civilian populations about them. That time may have already come and gone.

The new field manual asserts, “…by focusing on efforts to secure the safety and support of the local populace, and through a concerted effort to truly function as learning organizations, the Army and Marine Corps can defeat their insurgent enemies.”

The struggle in the Middle East increasingly appears to be an information battle to win public opinion. An Afghan villager, for example, has access to the Internet, e-mail, satellite phone, and text messaging and these tools are thought to be more easily exploited by insurgents than the Afghan government.

“In the information war, America and its allies are barely competing,” Packer writes, because they are not the primary strategy but used to publicize military victories and no one in the battlefield areas hears the message. At times, the U.S. has relied on radio to get across a message that would spread quicker by floating rumors in Iraqi coffee shops.

The emphasis on military response does little to win friends in Islam, Packer writes. He quotes Frederick Barton, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank: “Hard power is not the way we’re going to make an impression.”

In Pakistan, Barton says, the U.S. since 2002 has spent $6-billion shoring up the Pakistani military and billions more on intelligence-gathering yet it has spent less than a billion dollars on aid for education and economic development in a country where Islamist madrassas and joblessness contribute to the radicalization of young people.”

James Kuner, acting deputy of the U.S. Agency for International Development and a former Marine told The New Yorker that in Iraq and Afghanistan “the civilian agencies have received 1.4% of the total money,” whereas classical counterinsurgency doctrine says that 80% of the effort should be nonmilitary.”

Packer asserts, “There is little organized American effort to rebut the jihadist conspiracy theories that circulate daily among the Muslims living in populous countries such as Indonesia, Pakistan, and Nigeria.”

Bruce Hoffman, of Georgetown University, believes the U.S. must help foreign governments flood the Internet with persuasively youthful Web sites presenting anti-jihadist messages yet without leaving American fingerprints. He said jihadists have posted 5,000 Web sites that react swiftly and imaginatively to events. Adds Kilcullen, “We’ve got to co-opt or assist people who have a counter-message. And we might need to consider creating or supporting the creation of rival organizations.”

“You’ve got to be quiet about it,” Kilcullen said. “You don’t go in there like a missionary.” The idea is to offer an alternative to individuals to walk a road other than jihad.

The Pentagon currently is recruiting social scientists to serve in a new project called “Cultural Operations Research Human Terrain”. The plan calls for sending five-person “human terrain” teams into Iraq and Afghanistan with combat brigades to serve as cultural advisers. The first teams are planning to leave next spring.

Such teams might prevent repeat of U.S. strategic miscalculations made to date. One was described by Montgomery McFate writing in “Joint Force Quarterly”: “Once the Sunni Ba’thists lost their prestigious jobs, were humiliated in the conflict, and got frozen out through Ba’thification, the tribal network became the backbone of the insurgency. The tribal insurgency is a direct result of our misunderstanding the Iraqi culture.”

All of which makes you wonder, can the Bush White House get anything right? Anything?


*************
(Sherwood Ross is an American reporter who covers military and political affairs. Reach him at sherwoodr1 @ yahoo.com)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0612/S00221.htm
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Rise in global terror since Iraq war

WASHINGTON, Feb. 22 (UPI) -- Attacks by jihadist groups and the rate of fatalities in those attacks have increased significantly since the invasion of Iraq, according to a new study.

The study's authors data shows a sevenfolkd increase in the global yearly rate of fatal jihadist attacks.

"Even when terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan is excluded, fatal attacks in the rest of the world have increased by more than one-third," the Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, authors of the study.

The co-authors are research fellows at the Center on Law and Security at the NYU School of Law. Bergen is also a senior fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington, a public policy institute.

The study demonstrates "what we all knew intuitively to be true: that the Iraq war has radicalized a new generation and created a lot more jihadist terrorism," Bergen said at an event at the New America Foundation on Wednesday.

Bergen and Cruickshank analyzed data from the MIPT-RAND Terrorism database, a source that closely has tracked global terrorism since 1998. They found that there was a 607 percent rise in the average yearly incidence of fatal attacks worldwide since the war in Iraq began.

The study also examined whether there was a rise in attacks on Western targets since the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. The numbers Bergen and Cruickshank assessed indicated that indeed there was an increase in number of fatal attacks on Western interests and citizens, as well as a rise in the fatality rate in these attacks.

The Bush administration intended for the Iraq war to draw Jihadist terrorists to Iraq "like moths to a fan, (to) perish there rather than wreak havoc elsewhere in the world," the report said. It said the administration assumed that the Iraq war would reduce the number of Jihadist terrorists worldwide and that the U.S. interests would be safer after the war, but data indicated neither of the assumptions proved to be true.

http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20070222-105739-1517r
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Afghan commander warns US to leave


An Afghan regional commander believed to be loosely allied with the Taliban has said that the US will soon be forced to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan and Iraq.

Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, leader of the Hizb-i-islami armed movement, also blamed the US for Afghanistan's problems, in a tape obtained by Reuters news agency and released on Thursday.

Hekmatyar, a former prime minister whose forces operate in southeastern areas near Pakistan, denounced the US as "the mother of problems".

"As long as America remains in Afghanistan and in the region, war and problems will continue," he said in the video.

"I can say with full assurance and confidence that America does not have the ability to stay for a long period in Afghanistan.

"My analysis is that America [will] pull out from Iraq and Afghanistan simultaneously and the withdrawal perhaps will happen this year."

Hekmatyar said America's allies had sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq out of fear of Washington, but he said a rift was emerging among them over whether they should stay on there.

Unlike other groups opposed to the US presence in Afghanistan, Hekmatyar has had an uneasy relationship with the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

His forces are believed to operate separately from the Taliban and operate mostly in the rugged southeastern areas bordering Pakistan.

Hekmatyar was Afghanistan's prime minister twice in the mid-1990s but he failed to agree with Ahmed Shah Massoud, his defence minister, and conflict between between the two eventually led to a prolonged and destructive civil war.

At one point he was supported by Iran's Shia government [/B]which has often been opposed to the staunchly Sunni Taliban which regarded Afghanistan's Shias as non-Muslims.

Hekmatyar was also the largest recipient of US and Pakistani aid in the 1980s during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/591C4DCF-1571-4707-924C-EC7DCFBAD736.htm
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

Good propaganda piece from the other side, A.H.

QueEx
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

UK: No more 'war on terror'




Mon Apr 16, 7:32 AM ET

The British government has stopped using the phrase "war on terror" to refer to the struggle against political and religious violence, according to a Cabinet minister's prepared remarks for a Monday speech.

International Development Secretary Hilary Benn, a rising star of the governing Labour Party, says in a speech prepared for delivery in New York that the expression popularized by President Bush after the Sept. 11 attacks strengthens terrorists by making them feel part of a bigger struggle.

Extracts from Benn's speech at New York University's Center on International Cooperation were released by his office.

"We do not use the phrase 'war on terror' because we can't win by military means alone, and because this isn't us against one organized enemy with a clear identity and a coherent set of objectives," Benn said.

"It is the vast majority of the people in the world — of all nationalities and faiths — against a small number of loose, shifting and disparate groups who have relatively little in common apart from their identification with others who share their distorted view of the world and their idea of being part of something bigger."

Prime Minister Tony Blair's official spokesman said he was unsure when Blair had last used the phrase.

"We all use our own phraseology, and we talk about terrorism, we talk about the fight against terrorism, but we also talk about trying to find political solutions to political problems," he said on condition of anonymity, in line with government policy.

According to the advance text, Benn urged Americans to use the "soft power" of values and ideas as well as military strength to defeat extremism.

Benn's comments were at least partly directed at his own Labour Party, which is uneasy about Blair's close alliance with Bush and overwhelmingly opposed to Britain's participation in the Iraq war.

Benn currently is the bookies' favorite to become Labour's deputy leader in a party election once Blair steps down as premier later this year.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070416...r&printer=1;_ylt=Aq3OTRFiqzzhgluADipLOMVbbBAF
 
Re: How To Lose The War on Terror

State Survey: Terror attacks up sharply

By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 18 minutes ago

Terrorist attacks worldwide shot up 25 percent last year, particularly in Iraq where extremists used chemical weapons and suicide bombers to target crowds.

In its annual global survey of terrorism to be released Monday, the State Department says about 14,000 attacks took place in 2006, mainly in Iraq and Afghanistan. These strikes claimed more than 20,000 lives - two-thirds in Iraq. That is 3,000 more attacks than in 2005 and 5,800 more deaths.

Altogether, 40 percent more people were killed by increasingly lethal means around the globe.

The report attributes the higher casualty figures to a 25-percent jump in the number of nonvehicular suicide bombings targeting large crowds. That overwhelmed a 12-percent dip in suicide attacks involving vehicles.

In Iraq, the use of chemical weapons, seen for the first time in a November 23, 2006 attack in Sadr City, also "signaled a dangerous strategic shift in tactics," it says.

With the rise in fatalities, the number of injuries from terrorist attacks also rose, by 54 percent, between 2005 and 2006, with a doubling in the number wounded in Iraq over the period, according to the department's Country Reports on Terrorism 2006.

The numbers were compiled by the National Counterterrorism Center and refer to deaths and injuries sustained by "non-combatants," with significant increases in attacks targeting children, educators and journalists.

"By far the largest number of reported terrorist incidents occurred in the Near East and South Asia," says the 335-page report, referring to the regions where Iraq and Afghanistan are located.

"These two regions also were the locations for 90 percent of all the 290 high-casualty attacks that killed 10 or more people," says the report, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press ahead of its official release.

The report says 6,600, or 45 percent, of the attacks took place in Iraq, killing about 13,000 people, or 65 percent of the worldwide total of terrorist-related deaths in 2006. Kidnappings by terrorists soared 300 percent in Iraq over 2005.

Afghanistan had 749 strikes in 2006, a 50-percent rise from 2005 when 491 attacks were tallied, according to the report.

However, it also details a surge in Africa, where 65 percent more attacks, 420 compared to 253 in 2005, were counted last year, largely due to turmoil in or near Sudan, including Darfur, and Nigeria where oil facilities and workers have been targetted.

The report says that terrorists continue to rely mainly on conventional weapons in their attacks, but noted no let up in an alarming trend toward more sophisticated and better planned and coordinated strikes.

For instance, while the number of bombings increased by 30 percent between 2005 and 2006, the death tolls from these incidents rose by 39 percent and the number of injuries rose by 45 percent, it says.

The report attributes the higher casualty figures to a 25-percent jump in the number of non-vehicular suicide bombings targetting large crowds that more than made up for a slight 12-percent dip in suicide attacks involving vehicles.

Of the 58,000 people killed or wounded in terrorist attacks around the world in 2006, more than 50 percent were Muslims, the report, says with government officials, police and security guards accounting for a large proportion, the report says.

The number of child casualties from terrorist attacks soared by more than 80 percent between 2005 and 2006 to more than 1,800, while incidents involving educators were up more than 45 percent and those involving journalists up 20 percent, the report says.

Twenty-eight U.S. citizens were killed and 27 wounded in terrorist incidents in 2006, most of them in Iraq, where eight of the 12 Americans kidnapped by terrorists last year were taken captive, it says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430...m&printer=1;_ylt=AuzxwJc43cSRJKaWApn9bhyWwvIE
 
Jose Padilla Convicted in Terror Case

<font size="5"><center>Jose Padilla Convicted in Terror Case</font size></center>

By Mort Lucoff and Jeff St.Onge
Bloomberg
August 16, 2007

Jose Padilla was convicted of terrorism-conspiracy charges in a victory for the Bush administration, which held him in a military prison as an enemy combatant for more than three years.

Padilla, 36, a U.S. citizen, and two co-defendants were found guilty today by a federal jury in Miami of conspiring to commit murder in a foreign country, conspiring to provide support to terrorist groups and providing such support. They could be sentenced to as much as life in prison. An earlier accusation that Padilla plotted to explode a radioactive ``dirty bomb'' wasn't included in the charges.

``We can appeal,'' Padilla's mother, Estelle Lebron, told reporters. ``I don't know how they could find him guilty. There were 300,000 calls and there's no evidence he spoke in code'' in the phone calls recorded by investigators.

Padilla's conviction after a three-month trial gives a boost to President George W. Bush's war on terrorism following a series of setbacks in U.S. courts. In three cases since the Sept. 11 attacks, the Supreme Court has put limits on presidential power to determine the fate of suspected terrorists held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The high court will hear another case later this year.

Padilla's two co-defendants, Adham Amin Hassoun and Kifah Wael Jayyousi, were convicted of the same charges. The seven-man, five-woman jury deliberated for a day and a half. U.S. District Judge Marcia Cooke scheduled sentencing for Dec. 5.

`Star Recruit'

Padilla, a former Chicago gang member, was the ``star recruit of a terrorism support cell,'' prosecutor Brian Frazier told the jury in closing arguments Aug. 13. ``Padilla was a mujahedeen recruit and an al-Qaeda terrorist trainee.''

His defense lawyer, Michael Caruso, said the government failed to prove its case. When Padilla went overseas, he had ``an intent to study, not an intent to murder,'' the lawyer told the jury in his closing argument.

Padilla was arrested May 8, 2002, at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport after arriving from Pakistan. Then-Attorney General John Ashcroft touted the arrest as a key success in the war on terrorism. Citing the dirty-bomb accusation, Bush ordered Padilla held as an enemy combatant in military custody, where he remained for the next 3 1/2 years.

Padilla was charged in criminal court in November 2005 and transferred to civilian custody as the government sought to avoid a Supreme Court hearing on his challenge to his detention.

`Lot of Lawyering'

``There's a lot of lawyering still to be done'' in the case, which eventually could go to the U.S. Supreme Court, said Eugene Fidell, a national security law expert at Feldesman Tucker Leifer Fidell in Washington.

``The backdrop of this case -- holding a U.S. citizen arrested in the U.S. in military custody for more than three years -- is a troubling proposition,'' Fidell said. ``It's the type of thing that can put judges or justices in a very grumpy mood.''

Prosecutors said Padilla, Hassoun and Jayyousi supported the al-Qaeda network and terrorist activities from 1993 to 2001. They weren't accused of committing violent acts or being involved in the Sept. 11 attacks.

Padilla attended an al-Qaeda terrorism-training camp in Afghanistan in 2000, prosecutors said. The central piece of evidence against him was what prosecutors described as a ``mujahedeen data form'' bearing his fingerprints that they said he filled out to attend the training facility.

Wiretaps

Other prosecution evidence included court-approved wiretaps of telephone conversations among the men, as well as bank checks and faxes. Padilla's defense lawyer said his voice appeared on only seven of 200,000 calls recorded, and those calls showed that his only goal in going overseas was to study Islam and the Arabic language.

The trial opened on May 14. Padilla's lawyers rested their case without presenting any witnesses or evidence.

Prosecutors weren't allowed to use statements Padilla made to interrogators while he was in military custody because he wasn't allowed to have a lawyer present.

Cooke ruled in February that Padilla was mentally competent to stand trial, rejecting his lawyers' argument that he was unable to assist in his defense because of abuse he claims he suffered while in military custody.

The case is U.S. v. Hassoun et al., 04cr60001, U.S. District Court in Miami.

To contact the reporters on this story: Mort Lucoff in U.S. District Court in Miami; Jeff St.Onge in Washington jstonge@bloomberg.net

Last Updated: August 16, 2007 15:02 EDT
 
Re: Jose Padilla Convicted in Terror Case

With regards to Jose Padilla it is very interesting that a man who is tortured , not allowed to speak to a lawyer , and demonized by the corporate media is convicted within hours and we do not know the names of those who tortured him or think this lynchmob justice is unfair. In addition The "lowlifes" who create these policies(George Bush, Donald Rumsfield, AttorneyGeneral Gonzalez , Karl Rove etc ) face no charges or outrage. If this was castro or Stalin they would talk about how ruthless these people and leaders are. Meanwhile a Dumbass wealthy "Negro Quarterback" kills and trains attack dogs and probably gambles on these dogs and the average American "dumbass " knows this brothers life story and he is spoken about like he was Hitler, O.J., and Stalin all rolled up into one by The "Homer Simpson " fools who make up America. Thank God he did not get charged with Cockfighting because we know how much rage there would be about abusing chickens before you fry them and sell their dead bodies at KFC and ElPolo Loco.
 
Re: Jose Padilla Convicted in Terror Case

zulukid187 said:
With regards to Jose Padilla it is very interesting that a man who is tortured , not allowed to speak to a lawyer , and demonized by the corporate media is convicted within hours and we do not know the names of those who tortured him or think this lynchmob justice is unfair. In addition The "lowlifes" who create these policies(George Bush, Donald Rumsfield, AttorneyGeneral Gonzalez , Karl Rove etc ) face no charges or outrage. If this was castro or Stalin they would talk about how ruthless these people and leaders are. Meanwhile a Dumbass wealthy "Negro Quarterback" kills and trains attack dogs and probably gambles on these dogs and the average American "dumbass " knows this brothers life story and he is spoken about like he was Hitler, O.J., and Stalin all rolled up into one by The "Homer Simpson " fools who make up America. Thank God he did not get charged with Cockfighting because we know how much rage there would be about abusing chickens before you fry them and sell their dead bodies at KFC and ElPolo Loco.

Chuuch!! What this accomplishes is it adds an Hispanic face to terrorism the same way those two blackmen were charged with the sniper attacks.
 
Re: Jose Padilla Convicted in Terror Case

zulukid187 said:
With regards to Jose Padilla it is very interesting that a man who is tortured , not allowed to speak to a lawyer , and demonized by the corporate media is convicted within hours and we do not know the names of those who tortured him or think this lynchmob justice is unfair. In addition The "lowlifes" who create these policies(George Bush, Donald Rumsfield, AttorneyGeneral Gonzalez , Karl Rove etc ) face no charges or outrage. If this was castro or Stalin they would talk about how ruthless these people and leaders are. Meanwhile a Dumbass wealthy "Negro Quarterback" kills and trains attack dogs and probably gambles on these dogs and the average American "dumbass " knows this brothers life story and he is spoken about like he was Hitler, O.J., and Stalin all rolled up into one by The "Homer Simpson " fools who make up America. Thank God he did not get charged with Cockfighting because we know how much rage there would be about abusing chickens before you fry them and sell their dead bodies at KFC and ElPolo Loco.



If it was so easy to convict him, why did Bush and Co. try that enemy combatant shit in the first place? It's not just sickening to watch their blatant power grab but also the complacency, shit compliance, of the American public and the "opposition" party.
 

Stunning statistics from the LA Times that contravene all of the 'Bush Crime Family' propaganda about the so-called 'war-on-terror'.

http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2007-11/33860990.pdf



Guantanamo and ‘Black Sites’

Number of people detained at Guantanamo
since Jan. 2002 ........................................ 775

Number of detainees released ................... 470

Number of detainees tried for any
crimes ............................................................0

Number of people estimated to have been
detained in CIA “black sites” — secret prisons
outside the U.S.........................................> 100

Number of those detained who have been
charged or convicted of any crime ...........................0

See all the statistics & numbers that expose the bush lie factory below



[PDF]http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2007-11/33860990.pdf[/PDF]
 
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