Remember the boats launched by Africans in the 1300s?

gene cisco

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It's from 2015, but news to me. We've discussed this a number of times on the main board.

@exiledking @VAiz4hustlaz

Inscriptions on Uruguay Coast Suggest West Africans Beat Columbus to Americas

Archaeoastronomer William James Veall scoured satellite images of Uruguay’s coastline, discovering a mass of inscriptions carved into the surface of a 2.3-mile (4,700-meter) long, white, crystalline rock formation. Studying the inscriptions, he realized that he may have found evidence of a successful expedition from the Old World to the the New World that predated the arrival of Christopher Columbus. And it wasn’t Viking script either. Thus, the inscriptions seem to have been left by an expedition not recorded in today’s history books.

Veall’s specialty as an archaeoastronomer is to look at how and why astronomy played such an important part in the lives of early cultures. This specialty has led him to study ancient geoglyphs and inscriptions, which has, in turn, led him to study ancient epigraphy (the science of inscriptions). His initial epigraphical assessment of the Uruguay inscriptions led him to hypothesize that they could be some 3,000 years old.

The rock engraving technique appears similar to a proto-Sinaitic technique in which “a series of ‘pecked’ holes are conjoined by a thin trace to create each separate character,” Veall wrote in an opinion article for Ancient Origins and also on his website. Proto-Sinaitic was used between about 1850 B.C. and 1100 B.C. It is thought to have replaced the Egyptian hieroglyphic-hieratic “combo” system of writing; it was then replaced by the 22-character, Phoenician writing system subsequently used by all West Semitic languages.

Veall asked epigrapher Dr. Clyde A. Winters, Ph.D., of the Uthman dan Fodio Institute, Illinois, to give his opinion on the inscriptions.

Dr. Winters believes the Uruguay inscriptions were made by a West African expedition controversially thought to have landed in South America about 200 years before Columbus.

“I believe these inscriptions were written by some of the scouts of Mansa Abubakari that he sent out ahead of the main expeditionary force of at least 25,000. They appear to be inscriptions like those I found in Brazil and North America that was telling the members of the expedition the best places to establish settlements,” Winters wrote to Veall, as quoted by Veall in Part 2 of his Ancient Origins article.


Mansa Abubakari was the emperor of Mali. He handed the throne over to his brother in 1311 A.D. and set off on an expedition to see if he could find a coast on the other side of the Atlantic. Winters said that the Uruguay inscriptions are clearly in the Manding System of Writing, which would have been used by Abubakari’s expedition.

Winters analyzed the Uruguay inscriptions using the Manding System:

Manding-System-of-Writing

In 2000, the BBC looked at other evidence Abubakari reached South America before Columbus. A research project in Mali tracing Abubakari’s journeys uncovered evidence that, in 1312, Abubakari reached a part of Brazil’s coast known today as Recife. The researchers said they found written accounts of Abubakari’s expedition in Egypt, in a book written by Al Omari in the 14th century.

The BBC explained that the researchers were, “examining reports by Columbus, himself, who said he found black traders already present in the Americas. They also cite chemical analyses of the gold tips that Columbus found on spears in the Americas, which show that the gold probably came from West Africa.”


Traditional African historians known as Griots, who pass on the history orally, may have intentionally kept the successful expedition secret. Malian scholar Gaoussou Diawara, who wrote the book “The Saga of Abubakari II,” told the BBC: “The Griots found his [Abubakari’s] abdication a shameful act, not worthy of praise … For that reason they have refused to sing praise or talk of this great African man.” But, the Griots began to open up about the success of Abubakari’s expedition.

Oral accounts are not taken as seriously by many historians, however, as physical evidence, noted Diawara.

Though the Uruguay inscriptions use the Manding System, leading Winter to believe they may have been left by this 14th century West African expedition, Veall still wonders whether they might not be of earlier origin. While it is commonly held that the Manding System originated not long before the time of Abubakari, Winter has suggested the system’s origins may be much older—thousands of years older.

The inscriptions along the coast also seem to Veall to vary, suggesting multiple sources and thus perhaps multiple expeditions over a vast period of time. He continues to study the inscriptions and hopes other researchers will join his efforts. He wrote: “I have informed the Uruguayan Ministry of Education and Culture about this ground-breaking ‘discovery.’ The Ministry subsequently replied that they had no knowledge of such sites and most probably the location was incorrect. A sketch map with the satellite co-ordinates has been sent to the Ministry confirming the Uruguyan location is correct. A reply is still awaited.

“However, of greater urgency, the satellite imagery also confirms a rapid deterioration of the coastline archaeological sites due to residential intrusion and heavy tourist erosion.”
 

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exiledking

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This "archoastronomer" (whatever the fuck that is-- feel free to look him and his occupation up) guy says his findings are from 3000 years ago.


The article then jumps to some totally different guy who references :
Mansa Musa and Abubakr ---- who lived around 1400


That's 500 years ago, vs 3000. That's a pretty big gap

Also , they reference the manding writing system --thsts a little tricky because I'm not aware that they had one-- hence Griot's (called Djelis in Mandinka) , carried the history via oral history. It even says it in the piece about how they didn't want to speak of Abubakr.

The story I AM familiar with says they don't talk about Mansa Musa, not AbuBakr. And the reason they don't speak of Mansa Musa, is because he spent the nations weatlh on his travels-- the same travels that let the world know he was there. To be fair, he also spent it on mosques (universities) , and bringing Islamic scholars to his nation.
.
In terms of writing , there is talk of how Sundiata Keita, the founder of Mali, had a constitution of sorts , written up, but that's debatable. Also, notice they're an Islamic society to the writing for a long time , once it did come was in arabic. Using Arabic script to write in their language is called Ajami, and the scrolls that are constantly being found and uploaded , are written in it. Those scrolls are where the real info about whether any of that was done or not would be, which is why we have to keep those Arabs and touregs from.destroying whatever's left.

I seriously doubt the veracity of this article. Consistent travel back and forth would leave far too many clues to be easily covered up. And way more than some arrow tips.

We would see currency, vegatation , MAPS, Linguistic links, genetic links, artifacts , old market places-- all the shit we see from Columbus, Vasco de Gama, Cortez, all that. We don't even see ports off the coast of Mali (Senegal , Gambia, guinea) that tell us anything. And if they're own story tellers don't wanna say something by now? C'mon.
 

exiledking

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Good post. And we’ve tried to have discussions about this kind of stuff, but it won’t be long before the outer space niggas come in here and fuck it up.
They certainly will. But even the white guy whos "findings " we're looking at , is one of them "outer space niggas" lmao
 

gene cisco

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This "archoastronomer" (whatever the fuck that is-- feel free to look him and his occupation up) guy says his findings are from 3000 years ago.


The article then jumps to some totally different guy who references :
Mansa Musa and Abubakr ---- who lived around 1400


That's 500 years ago, vs 3000. That's a pretty big gap

Also , they reference the manding writing system --thsts a little tricky because I'm not aware that they had one-- hence Griot's (called Djelis in Mandinka) , carried the history via oral history. It even says it in the piece about how they didn't want to speak of Abubakr.

The story I AM familiar with says they don't talk about Mansa Musa, not AbuBakr. And the reason they don't speak of Mansa Musa, is because he spent the nations weatlh on his travels-- the same travels that let the world know he was there. To be fair, he also spent it on mosques (universities) , and bringing Islamic scholars to his nation.
.
In terms of writing , there is talk of how Sundiata Keita, the founder of Mali, had a constitution of sorts , written up, but that's debatable. Also, notice they're an Islamic society to the writing for a long time , once it did come was in arabic. Using Arabic script to write in their language is called Ajami, and the scrolls that are constantly being found and uploaded , are written in it. Those scrolls are where the real info about whether any of that was done or not would be, which is why we have to keep those Arabs and touregs from.destroying whatever's left.

I seriously doubt the veracity of this article. Consistent travel back and forth would leave far too many clues to be easily covered up. And way more than some arrow tips.

We would see currency, vegatation , MAPS, Linguistic links, genetic links, artifacts , old market places-- all the shit we see from Columbus, Vasco de Gama, Cortez, all that. We don't even see ports off the coast of Mali (Senegal , Gambia, guinea) that tell us anything. And if they're own story tellers don't wanna say something by now? C'mon.
I just want to know what happened to the boats. Did any make it to the new world? I know Winters is active in forums online and discusses the subject of black Africans being in the new world.
 

exiledking

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I just want to know what happened to the boats. Did any make it to the new world? I know Winters is active in forums online and discusses the subject of black Africans being in the new world.
we don't even know if they existed at all, and chances are, without any prior knowledge of the currents , Tradewinds , and how they work, nada. Tons of CACS died compiling this knowledge. Henry the Navigator is the Abu Bakr of Europe. But they didn't rely on word of mouth, they wrote shit down. Successes and failures.

Look at Space travel currently. Is it coming from all parts of the world? NO. Not even England really. Its currently coming from the US, and maybe China and Russia.

But Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Richard whatsisname (Virgin) are the exploring merchants leading the way. Nasa is the government sponsored program, that will rely on them to do the heavy lifting.

Not one from Africa. Not one from Thailand. India, etc... Ability to explore is not just granted to everybody. They did live on a coast, so there's the possibility. But the more important routes for them at the time was learning how to traverse the SAHARA, which is its own ocean of sorts. Same as China.. They explored the oceans long before the Western Europeans,and controlled the Indian Ocean but at some point, they had to turn their attention to the west and deal with the Mongols. Apparently they had a powerful ruler who straight shut down the Ocean exploration programs. WE live in the Space exploring country NOW- What will we do with it?
 

exiledking

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Exactly. Good find. Notice when he's talking , he's referencing Phoenicians and Egyptians, which matches his 3000 years claim.

The article does a bait and switch from his theory, and throws in some other guys interpretation of the same data, but being dishonest about the dates. This was done by Ivan Van sertima and the white guy he got his story from before.
 

exiledking

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And take a look at “Dr”Clyde Winters , and his “uthman Dan Fodio” insutitute.


Yeaaaaah , I dunno if the epoch times is a reliable source to start from. Anything I see from here, I'd wanna reference somewhere else. I rwadydont trust how they mixed up sources like that.
 

godofwine

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Exactly. Good find. Notice when he's talking , he's referencing Phoenicians and Egyptians, which matches his 3000 years claim.

The article does a bait and switch from his theory, and throws in some other guys interpretation of the same data, but being dishonest about the dates. This was done by Ivan Van sertima and the white guy he got his story from before.
Who the fuck knows what to believe. I don't doubt that the black people got to the Americas before Columbus. Why do people always like taking credit for shit they didn't do OR seeing a flag that someone else placed and removing that flag them saying White people discovered it

It's their nature. Destruction to the point of annihilation, and taking credit for shit someone else has done.

No other race has made more species extinct than white people. Every other race of people have lived in harmony with nature and never used or killed more than they needed, but white people? They killed all the dodos, they killed all the rhinos? White people kill for sport, for trophies or just because.

 

exiledking

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Who the fuck knows what to believe. I don't doubt that the black people got to the Americas before Columbus. Why do people always like taking credit for shit they didn't do OR seeing a flag that someone else placed and removing that flag them saying White people discovered it

It's their nature. Destruction to the point of annihilation, and taking credit for shit someone else has done.

No other race has made more species extinct than white people. Every other race of people have lived in harmony with nature and never used or killed more than they needed, but white people? They killed all the dodos, they killed all the rhinos? White people kill for sport, for trophies or just because.

And with that, I’m out of this thread.
 

gene cisco

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And take a look at “Dr”Clyde Winters , and his “uthman Dan Fodio” insutitute.


Yeaaaaah , I dunno if the epoch times is a reliable source to start from. Anything I see from here, I'd wanna reference somewhere else. I rwadydont trust how they mixed up sources like that.
Yeah, not the best source at all, but just wanted to spark a discussion.

Man, I'm just looking at anything on that expedition. I always have in my mind that story of the boat that came back and said the others just got swept away. It always fascinated me.

And I never had any delusions that folks just showed up and it was all sweet. Like when folks assume those spear tips came from trade instead of stripped off dead bodies.
 

exiledking

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Yeah, not the best source at all, but just wanted to spark a discussion.

Man, I'm just looking at anything on that expedition. I always have in my mind that story of the boat that came back and said the others just got swept away. It always fascinated me.

And I never had any delusions that folks just showed up and it was all sweet. Like when folks assume those spear tips came from trade instead of stripped off dead bodies.
I gotcha. I was fascinated with it for a while , but there's still no proof it ever even happened. The story comes from someone who says ibn Batutta said it. I think ibn Batutta, maybe another Arab guy, who says that's what Mansa Musa said to him.

This is also why the whole writings thing is suspect , cuz as you can see, the only writings about that region and time , come from these Arab explorers.There's no first hand sources as of yet. No talk of even local navies , but I assume all of em had at least a strong canoe fleet for the coast line. Hard to say , because Mali was the imperial power , Thousands of miles inland. We don't know how much influence they could have had all the way to the coast way back then. Chances are, they were more concerned with where their actual business was coming from back then which was the desert. The only reason Europeans became interested in sea travel was because of the issues they were having getting to the east once Islamic Arabs became powerful. If the west Africans had no such troubles, there would be no reason to go dying in the ocean.
 

gene cisco

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I gotcha. I was fascinated with it for a while , but there's still no proof it ever even happened. The story comes from someone who says ibn Batutta said it. I think ibn Batutta, maybe another Arab guy, who says that's what Mansa Musa said to him.

This is also why the whole writings thing is suspect , cuz as you can see, the only writings about that region and time , come from these Arab explorers.There's no first hand sources as of yet. No talk of even local navies , but I assume all of em had at least a strong canoe fleet for the coast line. Hard to say , because Mali was the imperial power , Thousands of miles inland. We don't know how much influence they could have had all the way to the coast way back then. Chances are, they were more concerned with where their actual business was coming from back then which was the desert. The only reason Europeans became interested in sea travel was because of the issues they were having getting to the east once Islamic Arabs became powerful. If the west Africans had no such troubles, there would be no reason to go dying in the ocean.
Yeah, that's why I'm interested in finding something on this side to back the story. DNA evidence, not just the infamous 'look at the noses' shit. Just anything.

We know the trip is possible. We also know that folks have sailed the Pacific in small canoes Hell, DNA evidence suggest they made it to the Americas.

Just wish they kept better records. Without writing things down, we know how legends can grow. What starts out at 20 ships quickly becomes 200 and finally 1000.
 

exiledking

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Yeah, that's why I'm interested in finding something on this side to back the story. DNA evidence, not just the infamous 'look at the noses' shit. Just anything.

We know the trip is possible. We also know that folks have sailed the Pacific in small canoes Hell, DNA evidence suggest they made it to the Americas.

Just wish they kept better records. Without writing things down, we know how legends can grow. What starts out at 20 ships quickly becomes 200 and finally 1000.
You seem to keep leaving out the most likely possiblity , which , is just like 99 percent of the rest of the world, there were no ships.

Just like there's no ships that left the east or west coast of North or south America to go and see Europe.

Only reason it matters to anyone now is because of the advantage those who did have now. Now it's "oh we did it first, we just didn't tell nobody "

Who cares if they did it and didn't get any benefit? That's 500 years ago.

Now we live in the country that's definitely doing the next frontier. Head in the game
 

gene cisco

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You seem to keep leaving out the most likely possiblity , which , is just like 99 percent of the rest of the world, there were no ships.

Just like there's no ships that left the east or west coast of North or south America to go and see Europe.

Only reason it matters to anyone now is because of the advantage those who did have now. Now it's "oh we did it first, we just didn't tell nobody "

Who cares if they did it and didn't get any benefit? That's 500 years ago.

Now we live in the country that's definitely doing the next frontier. Head in the game
Oh no doubt that's a possibility, but is there not a stream that automatically takes folks to the Americas? It's just interesting that the alleged survivor makes note of that stream in the story that was told to the Arab.
 

exiledking

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Oh no doubt that's a possibility, but is there not a stream that automatically takes folks to the Americas? It's just interesting that the alleged survivor makes note of that stream in the story that was told to the Arab.
That's not where the story came from. It supposedly came FROM Mansa Musa himself. He says he became king because the prior King, Abu Bakr never came back. So even in his story there were no survivors. But we don't even know if that's a real story.

And as far as a current or winds that take people from the West coast of Africa to east coast of South America , Uruguay isn't in that range , also it's a small reed boat that can possibly do that, not a whole damn ship with several people.

If you read up on how the original boats from conquistadors made it over the seas, it always involved crashing into the shore, rebuilding the ship and coming back on another current. It was an art, Eventually fine-tuned into a more exact science.

We don't even hear about ancient ship builders from that time that didn't go. You would think the wolof, serer, mandinkas, fulanis-- some damn body would be talking about their ship building prowess. Then even after the europeans landed there, hundreds of years of them coming back and forth and NO ONE built a shop that could come and get their own people back? This is more than likely a fairy tale
 

gene cisco

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That's not where the story came from. It supposedly came FROM Mansa Musa himself. He says he became king because the prior King, Abu Bakr never came back. So even in his story there were no survivors. But we don't even know if that's a real story.

And as far as a current or winds that take people from the West coast of Africa to east coast of South America , Uruguay isn't in that range , also it's a small reed boat that can possibly do that, not a whole damn ship with several people.

If you read up on how the original boats from conquistadors made it over the seas, it always involved crashing into the shore, rebuilding the ship and coming back on another current. It was an art, Eventually fine-tuned into a more exact science.

We don't even hear about ancient ship builders from that time that didn't go. You would think the wolof, serer, mandinkas, fulanis-- some damn body would be talking about their ship building prowess. Then even after the europeans landed there, hundreds of years of them coming back and forth and NO ONE built a shop that could come and get their own people back? This is more than likely a fairy tale
No, in his story, there were survivors. One boat came back after months. It was after the return of this one boat that the second expedition with the king was launched. According to the tale, they weren't talking about the first expedition for months until the return of the one boat that turned back.
 

exiledking

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No, in his story, there were survivors. One boat came back after months. It was after the return of this one boat that the second expedition with the king was launched. According to the tale, they weren't talking about the first expedition for months until the return of the one boat that turned back.
Yeah the first expedition went out and the ones who DIDNT go into the current came back. The ones who did , never came back. Then Abu Bakr, decided to commission a bunch more boats, and a bunch more people and jump into the "river of the ocean" (the current )-- he told.Mansa Musa "hold down the fort til I get back"


And never came back.


The Arab-Egyptian scholar Al-Umari[1]quotes Mansa Musa as follows:
The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning Atlantic), and wanted to reach that (end) and obstinately persisted in the design. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, like many others full of gold, water and victuals sufficient enough for several years. He ordered the chief (admiral) not to return until they had reached the extremity of the ocean, or if they had exhausted the provisions and the water. They set out. Their absence extended over a long period, and, at last, only one boat returned. On our questioning, the captain said: 'Prince, we have navigated for a long time, until we saw in the midst of the ocean as if a big river was flowing violently. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me. As soon as any of them reached this place, it drowned in the whirlpool and never came out. I sailed backwards to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and for his men, and one thousand more for water and victuals. Then he conferred on me the regency during his absence, and departed with his men on the ocean trip, never to return nor to give a sign of life.[
 

gene cisco

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Yeah the first expedition went out and the ones who DIDNT go into the current came back. The ones who did , never came back. Then Abu Bakr, decided to commission a bunch more boats, and a bunch more people and jump into the "river of the ocean" (the current )-- he told.Mansa Musa "hold down the fort til I get back"


And never came back.


The Arab-Egyptian scholar Al-Umari[1]quotes Mansa Musa as follows:
My point is how would they know about the current if they never did the expedition? It seems they had to sail out pretty far to get to the current since it took quite some time for the boat that didn't enter to come back.
 

exiledking

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Because it's a STORY, my friend. You have to
My point is how would they know about the current if they never did the expedition? It seems they had to sail out pretty far to get to the current since it took quite some time for the boat that didn't enter to come back.
get a hold of some of these primary sources to know if that's what was even said to Al Umari in the first place, OR, If hundreds of years later, now that we see the results of sea exploration, someone didn't insert the story in. If you're really interested, look as far into their individual lives as much as you can. Objectively, not with that end result in mind. Or even if you're looking for it , see if you can get the writings of the Arabs and see ifnrhse sources mention it. I have the Tarik Al fatash, which is some history on Timbuktu, which was in arabic, then french, and finally English only in recent years, and I've not seen anything about that.

Also, even in wiki , they have an entry on Abu Bakr, and some of the arguments against. I've stated some of em, the major one of which, is the time. Ivan Van Sertima simply didn't line up the times anywhere near each other. This is why I hate flea market books because it's some guys weak interpretation, that easily falls apart just off time. And people are reading this shit
 

gene cisco

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Because it's a STORY, my friend. You have to

get a hold of some of these primary sources to know if that's what was even said to Al Umari in the first place, OR, If hundreds of years later, now that we see the results of sea exploration, someone didn't insert the story in. If you're really interested, look as far into their individual lives as much as you can. Objectively, not with that end result in mind. Or even if you're looking for it , see if you can get the writings of the Arabs and see ifnrhse sources mention it. I have the Tarik Al fatash, which is some history on Timbuktu, which was in arabic, then french, and finally English only in recent years, and I've not seen anything about that.

Also, even in wiki , they have an entry on Abu Bakr, and some of the arguments against. I've stated some of em, the major one of which, is the time. Ivan Van Sertima simply didn't line up the times anywhere near each other. This is why I hate flea market books because it's some guys weak interpretation, that easily falls apart just off time. And people are reading this shit
Yeah, I was thinking about that shit too. About the current being added in later on. I'll have to dig for the oldest text of this story. In the thread I started on colonialism in north Africa, there is mention of translations being fucked up.

On the main board, we've been over many of the timeline and selective sourcing of the 'it's true, it's true" books. I always try to be objective.
 

ORIGINAL NATION

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I read some of this. But it was good that this was found. There was a black lady's body that was found a few years ago whose body was well preserved. It was over 2000 years old. But we would be surprised at the things that have been destroyed or hid. Getting proof or evidence would require some power. We cannot investigate nothing if all we can do is struggle to survive.
This is black history month but how much real black history can we come into contact with?
 
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