Question: Why won't President Obama's stimulus plan work?

VegasGuy

Star
OG Investor
I have read from several posters in this forum and in the main that the federal government infusion of resources into the private sector will not work and some say it is doomed to fail. Moreover, they sound morbidly convinced of that.

While it is true the peoples tax dollars have been poorly managed and badly mismanaged the last 8 years, the fundamentals of what makes America work does still exist. With better management and closer watch over the funds market together, should allow enough time for the nation to stabilize and begin to grow again. Looks to be a sound plan to me as I understand the plan. I cannot see the federal government doing nothing and allowing further deterioration.

It is at least my hope that this plan President Obama puts forth does work because as we all know, if whites lose 10 jobs, we lose 30. So I believe we have a personal stake in him succeeding. That's is my position. But this question isn't about my position..it is about yours.

My question for those who don't believe it will work, why don't you personally think or believe that the federal government can manage this crisis?

-VG
 
It won't work because the people who created this mess say they are going to fix it.

Sort of like Bush saying he allowed 9/11 but he is the person to protect the country.

Watch the Greed Game to see where all this money is headed.

All the government is going to do is create the same problems that got us in this mess, thereby making it much worse.

Capital will be concentrated in the banks.
The government bureaucracy will increase.
Private capital and investment will suffer.
Small businesses and self-employed will be crippled further.
 
It won't work because the people who created this mess say they are going to fix it.

Sort of like Bush saying he allowed 9/11 but he is the person to protect the country.

Watch the Greed Game to see where all this money is headed.

All the government is going to do is create the same problems that got us in this mess, thereby making it much worse.

Capital will be concentrated in the banks.
The government bureaucracy will increase.
Private capital and investment will suffer.
Small businesses and self-employed will be crippled further.

Is this you talking or are you just a conduit to some video Cruise?

I'm not about to debate a carefully scripted video son. It's like me yelling at the screen in a horror flick telling some dumb blond not to go down in the cellar. Wouldn't work for her, won't work for your video.

-VG
 
It's my post but I thought the video was very well done (BBC).

I don't entirely agree with the video (since it is from the mass media), but it has some stunning visuals showing how broken this system is.

Without saying it, the video shows how governments reallocate resources from the poor to the powerful.

Part 1 - The Greed Game

 
I appreciate it Creed but you are hard-wired to this video thing. Again, I won't discuss that video or any other in this thread.

If I wanted to discuss videos I would have suggested it in the topic but for those who have difficulty formulating a complete thought on their own, they should watch and let the video speak for them. It's easier than reading and thinking. IMHO

-VG
 
The only reason I dont like the "stimulus" is because its just printing money to spend more. The Budget deficit is looking crazy now from the last 8 years. spending more with tax cuts is not a good recipe for paying down our debt. But all of the concerns I have are all long term concerns, in the short term I think it would work though. Obama's address was ok, he sold it alot better.

Stimulus will pass and equity markets will like it, and how they move there after will be soley on any indication an economic recovery.
 
My question for those who don't believe it will work, why don't you personally think or believe that the federal government can manage this crisis?

-VG

Easy.
1) The modern day economist thinks that spending will create economic growth, which is ass-backwards. It is economic growth that allows spending to happen.
2) What we need is more manufacturing and saving, instead of more borrowing & consumption.
3) The policies set forth by the govt don't support manufacturing, we can't even promote the phrase "buy American"! 4) No country is willing to loan the US money in the future because they have found out we can't pay for the debt we have right now.
5) Bernanke's only recourse is to print the money which is hyper-inflationary and will eventually destroy our currency (the dollar will be worth more as toilet paper than it will be as a currency.
6) The track record for the govt fixin' anything aint good

there are 2 options: we allow a severe recession to occur which will lead to job losses, but after 12-18 months, we rebuild from the ground up with a proper allocation of land, labor, and capital. 2) we print money til the cows come home and destroy the currency!
 
2) we print money til the cows come home and destroy the currency!

It's too late. The dollar bill (a bill being what the bank owes you in the form of gold or silver) is destroyed.

Since the bill (there is no "REAL" money to pay it) has no value, it's only a question of when the rest of society and the world realize it.

Once everyone realizes the [dollar] bill will NEVER be paid, people will stop accepting it for trade (first China, Japan, and Saudi Arabia, then here in the US).

Imagine buying with a bill, the bank will not honor, for a car, or house, or food, or fuel?

The system has collapsed! People just haven't realized it yet!

But, when it does, the vast paper fortunes will disappear overnight!

These bailouts/stimulus packages are just forestalling the inevitable. I just hope they last long enough for me to get my finances right.
 
These bailouts/stimulus packages are just forestalling the inevitable. I just hope they last long enough for me to get my finances right.

sir, you are brighter than 90% of congress. While no one can predict the time-frame, the writing should be on the wall for most, within a yr.
 
Easy.
1) The modern day economist thinks that spending will create economic growth, which is ass-backwards. It is economic growth that allows spending to happen.

Modern day says yes but you say "ass backward." How are you so right and the economist are "ass backward?"

2) What we need is more manufacturing and saving, instead of more borrowing & consumption.
Reagan destroyed our manufacturing base, cut taxes to the wealthy and raised them on the middle class via a tax levied on UNEMPLOYMENT benefits and raising social security taxes every year. So I don't disagree with the loss of a manufacturing base but the buy American clause should spur some manufacturing here in the states.

3) The policies set forth by the govt don't support manufacturing, we can't even promote the phrase "buy American"! 4) No country is willing to loan the US money in the future because they have found out we can't pay for the debt we have right now.

because they have found out? WTF?? You think they don't know what's up in America and have not known based on how we have been borrowing?
Hmmm

5) Bernanke's only recourse is to print the money which is hyper-inflationary and will eventually destroy our currency (the dollar will be worth more as toilet paper than it will be as a currency.

That's speculative. Besides, hyperinflation is a term that used if there is a surge in the money supply and and no one manages it. Such as what would happen if this stimulus goes into effect with Bush running it. Should not happen under Obama with the controls he's put in place.

Again, doing nothing IMO is a republican methodology which killed our economy in 8 years. Beginning with Bush administration's lack of focus on Iraq and on Wall Street.

6) The track record for the govt fixin' anything aint good
there are 2 options: we allow a severe recession to occur which will lead to job losses, but after 12-18 months, we rebuild from the ground up with a proper allocation of land, labor, and capital. 2) we print money til the cows come home and destroy the currency!

To allow a severe recession to occur helps? How does that square with your earlier comment:


" 4) No country is willing to loan the US money in the future because they have found out we can't pay for the debt we have right now"

If we allow a recession, we don't pay bills either which generally translates to we ain't lending you shit. You see what I mean now about republican methodology? It makes no fuckin' sense and almost always eats itself.

Again, doing nothing is what got us here. Allowing wealthy to not pay taxes to help pay for this bullshit they supported during the last 8 years of Bush will keep us here. If the last election said anything, it said republican methodology drove us off a cliff and ignoring those who hurt the most is not what this nation is about.

Also, truth be told, ask rush limbaugh's daddy how thankful he was to have survived with the help of big government New Deal and see if he feels like his republican followers.


-VG
 
Modern day says yes but you say "ass backward." How are you so right and the economist are "ass backward?"

because the guys pushing this stimulus honestly think that spending will create economic growth, which is backwards. It is economic growth that allows spending to happen. That lead to my point about the need for manufacturing and saving.


the buy American clause should spur some manufacturing here in the states.

Mr. Obama should support a 'buy American' clause, Why doesn't he?


Should not happen under Obama with the controls he's put in place.

Get back wit me in 6 months

Again, doing nothing IMO is a republican methodology which killed our economy in 8 years.

check it out, Imma be real witcha. In the beginning, Bush 'did nothing' and allowed Enron to fail and muhfuckaz went to jail. In the last few years, Bush has been a socialist. If he truly 'did nothin', AIG and every investment bank would be just like Enron! I'm appealing to your intellect, If you think Bush 'did nothing', I can't help you. What about the multiple interest rate cuts, the $800bn bailout, Bush even had a stimulus or 2.

If we allow a recession, we don't pay bills either which generally translates to we ain't lending you shit. You see what I mean now about republican methodology?


I'm sorry, when I deal with money I don't think about Repub or Dem methodology, I think about what is right or wrong. Once you realize borrowing and consumption is the reason we are in this mess, we can reverse course. But sadly, some think that is the answer! case & point, where's the doe from the stimulus gonna come from?

Again, doing nothing is what got us here. Allowing wealthy to not pay taxes to help pay for this bullshit they supported during the last 8 years of Bush will keep us here. If the last election said anything, it said republican methodology drove us off a cliff and ignoring those who hurt the most is not what this nation is about.
-VG

For the last time, I'm independent. Understand this: In order for tax cuts to be effective, spending must be minimal, and under Bush, spending on the War was beyond extravagant. So the proper response to Repubs would be: We can't afford tax cuts! That is why I'm 100% anti-war, bring all our troops home now! Stop spending money.

The last election taught me that neither side know what the hell they talkin' about! Mr. Obama showed me all I need to see by voting with Bush & Paulson for the $800bn. peace
 
The last election taught me that neither side know what the hell they talkin' about! Mr. Obama showed me all I need to see by voting with Bush & Paulson for the $800bn. peace

Which is exactly why we cannot listen to you or opinions like yours. You have no position worth a plugged nickel. Bottom line, we have to do something. We did nothing for 8 years but allow the nation to go down the tubes.

-VG
 
Props on the question VegasGuy. I actually had a passionate discussion with a classmate of mine about this very topic today. He blamed the economic crisis on the UAW and the people who signed the shitty home loans. He also believed that was who the money from the stimulus bill was going to and that thought that tax breaks on the corporations would be the solution (like Reagan did, his words not mine) :eek:
 
Which is exactly why we cannot listen to you or opinions like yours. You have no position worth a plugged nickel. Bottom line, we have to do something. We did nothing for 8 years but allow the nation to go down the tubes.

-VG

VG - They have done enough. If Bush 'did nothing', Why is AIG, Merill Lynch, GM, Citibank, Morgan Stanley etc. still in business? Why are interest rates at zero? Why are we in an all-out War lookin for 2 niggaz in a cave, for real?

Allow me to break it down: Farrakhan once said "the easiest way to enslave a nation is to get them into debt". All this borrowing money (from the Federal Reserve) will occur at the expense of your civil liberties. Have you taken a look at the police state that has grown up around you, cameras everywhere! If you in Vegas, you know what I'm talkin about.

At some point, the people who saved their money, who have a successful business model, could be given an oppurtunity to flourish. Poorly run businesses should be allowed to fail. We can't just keep giving money to businesses who have unsuccessful business models, you're just throwing good money after bad
 
VG - They have done enough.

At some point, the people who saved their money, who have a successful business model, could be given an oppurtunity to flourish. Poorly run businesses should be allowed to fail. We can't just keep giving money to businesses who have unsuccessful business models, you're just throwing good money after bad

The government controls the money, spending, and debt. We have a problem with all three. To say the government somehow has been doing nothing with the very things it controls is asinine.

It's true, for once, the government needs to do nothing. Let things fall where they may so the economy has a chance to recover. I know this will never happen but that is the tragedy of this country.

The government keeps meddling in the markets, making this progressively worse.
 
VG - They have done enough. If Bush 'did nothing', Why is AIG, Merill Lynch, GM, Citibank, Morgan Stanley etc. still in business? Why are interest rates at zero? Why are we in an all-out War lookin for 2 niggaz in a cave, for real?

Allow me to break it down: Farrakhan once said "the easiest way to enslave a nation is to get them into debt". All this borrowing money (from the Federal Reserve) will occur at the expense of your civil liberties. Have you taken a look at the police state that has grown up around you, cameras everywhere! If you in Vegas, you know what I'm talkin about.

At some point, the people who saved their money, who have a successful business model, could be given an oppurtunity to flourish. Poorly run businesses should be allowed to fail. We can't just keep giving money to businesses who have unsuccessful business models, you're just throwing good money after bad

Because they over valued their stock and pilfered billions from the taxpayer and Poulson, once an Goldman Sachs CEO, was his co-conspirator. That's one big conflict of interest that was in serious need of oversight. But Poulson was his own watchdog.

And so what about the cameras and shit. That's called security and the cheaper that technology gets, the more people will employ it. They sell that shit at Sams man, that ain't shit.

That has nothing to do with what Bush did and allowed to happen to this nation. Under republican stewardship, we went from a surplus to the deepest deficits in this nations history. And you want to talk about some bullshit Farrakhan posturing? Quit wasting brain cells on this man.

Letting the people parish ain't leadership. It's failure. Abject failure. Just like Iraq was a failure so was the got damn surge.

The government didn't do nothing during the "great depression" of the 1930's and NO president will allow it now.

-VG
 
Props on the question VegasGuy. I actually had a passionate discussion with a classmate of mine about this very topic today. He blamed the economic crisis on the UAW and the people who signed the shitty home loans. He also believed that was who the money from the stimulus bill was going to and that thought that tax breaks on the corporations would be the solution (like Reagan did, his words not mine) :eek:

UAW ain't responsible for whats going on with the car business. Republicans seem to have a vested interest in making sure the American auto industry go out of business to be replaced by foreign competitors. It is the Ronald Reagan way.

Bustas like Jeff Sessions of Alabama, fought like a bitch to give away millions of tax concessions to at taxpayers expense, to get Mercedes to build a plant near Auburn. But the moment GM needs some help, now they want to say how much American workers should be paid. Like 28-30 bucks an hour is too much pay. Then they lied and said they make 70 an hour.

My question is, why is the republican view of America, so anti-American?

-VG
 
Bustas like Jeff Sessions of Alabama, fought like a bitch to give away millions of tax concessions to at taxpayers expense, to get Mercedes to build a plant near Auburn. But the moment GM needs some help, now they want to say how much American workers should be paid. Like 28-30 bucks an hour is too much pay. Then they lied and said they make 70 an hour.

My question is, why is the republican view of America, so anti-American?

-VG

We are in agreement, I used to work at 1 of the Big 3. What Sessions, Shelby,and Corker are doing in the South is just ol-fashioned union-busting. But if we are going to have honest debate, Clinton signed NAFTA and Al Gore passionately supported this position in debates with Ross Perot (an Independent) in 94. NAFTA has destroyed this country, not just the auto industry but all manufacturing has taken a hit. Another democratic issue that hurts automakers are the CAFE standards, they increase the cost of each vehicle an estimated $2200.

I understand the finger-pointing game but take your emotion out of the argument. Mr. Obama helped the Banksta bailout and it is doing nothing it was intended to do, has it? So why should this stimulus be any different?
 
We are in agreement, I used to work at 1 of the Big 3. What Sessions, Shelby,and Corker are doing in the South is just ol-fashioned union-busting. But if we are going to have honest debate, Clinton signed NAFTA and Al Gore passionately supported this position in debates with Ross Perot (an Independent) in 94. NAFTA has destroyed this country, not just the auto industry but all manufacturing has taken a hit. Another democratic issue that hurts automakers are the CAFE standards, they increase the cost of each vehicle an estimated $2200.

I understand the finger-pointing game but take your emotion out of the argument. Mr. Obama helped the Banksta bailout and it is doing nothing it was intended to do, has it? So why should this stimulus be any different?

Here we go.

Clinton signed NAFTA with the understanding as contained in the bill that this would happen with substantial oversight. Somehow when Bush got there, the oversight piece was lost its funding as provided by what he signed. Even the bail out Obama signed onto was also to happen with substantial oversight. It was something democrats insisted it have in order to get their vote. The republicans didn't want it. But after they added an additional 150 billion to the bill, they added "oversight".

It was never funded.

Lets be clear. I'm playing no game here. The Bush administration was by far the worse administration in modern memory. Worse than anything claimed not done by Jimmy Carter.

During Bush's tenure, average working Americans lost trillions in stock value and as much in real dollars. Beginning with Enron, the loss of the WTC, Katrina, Stock Market crash, Iraq war and ending with socializing the debt of private businesses. Not to mention the thousands of dead soldiers and families completely fucked up in 8 short years.
We have not even discussed the tens of thousands killed in Iraq.

This doesn't fuck with you at all?

-VG
 
We are in agreement, I used to work at 1 of the Big 3. What Sessions, Shelby,and Corker are doing in the South is just ol-fashioned union-busting. But if we are going to have honest debate, Clinton signed NAFTA and Al Gore passionately supported this position in debates with Ross Perot (an Independent) in 94. NAFTA has destroyed this country, not just the auto industry but all manufacturing has taken a hit. Another democratic issue that hurts automakers are the CAFE standards, they increase the cost of each vehicle an estimated $2200.

I understand the finger-pointing game but take your emotion out of the argument. Mr. Obama helped the Banksta bailout and it is doing nothing it was intended to do, has it? So why should this stimulus be any different?

I knew there had to be some reason we're seeing similar things.

When you work around the Big 3 or industrial areas, you see the vast devastation to the manufacturing base caused by NAFTA.

You hear Clinton, Gore, Bush, and Obama touting globalization and sending jobs overseas and de-industrializing the country so it looks like Las Vegas, Phoenix, or Seattle.

In the meantime, the manufacturing Midwest (Peoria, Cleveland, Detroit, Gary, Pittsburgh) are slowly dismantled and sent to Mexico, China, India, and other 3rd world countries.

The same thing happened in the UK - deindustrialization.

Of course, your economy becomes a false one. It depends on other nations to do the work while you reap the benefits. This continues only as long as the producer countries allow it. Of course, in the debtor countries, this leads to overconsumption by a grand factor.

Bush introduced NAFTA to basically make the 3rd world a US plantation. Instead of dealing with an informed and organized labor pool (US workers), they chose to exploit desperate and powerless citizens of poorer nations.

Clinton backed it. Gore and Bush promoted it. Obama continues it.

This is part of the reason this system is doomed. Once your creditors refuse to extend anymore credit, you go bankrupt.
 
Here we go.

Clinton signed NAFTA with the understanding as contained in the bill that this would happen with substantial oversight. Somehow when Bush got there, the oversight piece was lost its funding as provided by what he signed. Even the bail out Obama signed onto was also to happen with substantial oversight. It was something democrats insisted it have in order to get their vote. The republicans didn't want it. But after they added an additional 150 billion to the bill, they added "oversight".

-VG

Perfect example, the govts role is not to negotiate trade agreements like NAFTA. As I've said once before, govt intervention creates unintended consequences. It was a bad idea then, and it's a worse idea now! The Dems won't stop until every manufacturing job has left America.

Sure, the last 8 yrs were f'ed up but look at the foundation: NAFTA, the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, and the actions Alan Greenspan. :smh:
 
As always, the race card is played by the right in addition to hoping for failure of the country for political gains

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Perfect example, the govts role is not to negotiate trade agreements like NAFTA. As I've said once before, govt intervention creates unintended consequences. It was a bad idea then, and it's a worse idea now! The Dems won't stop until every manufacturing job has left America.

Sure, the last 8 yrs were f'ed up but look at the foundation: NAFTA, the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, and the actions Alan Greenspan. :smh:

Republicans yet again. From Wiki:
The bill that ultimately repealed the Act was introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (Republican of Texas) and in the House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa) in 1999. The bills were passed by Republican majorities on party lines by a 54-44 vote in the Senate[11] and by a 343-86 vote in the House of Representatives[12]. After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. The final bipartisan bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90-8 (1 not voting) and in the House: 362-57 (15 not voting). Having majorities large enough to override any possible Presidential veto, the legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999. [13]

-VG
 
Republicans yet again. From Wiki:

-VG

by the looks of the votes, it was bi-partisan, Clinton signed it.

Do you really wanna go there? because why should you blame Bush for a democratic majority that gave $800bn of taxpayer money to the banks so the banks could turn right back around and lend it back to the people AND CHARGE INTEREST

My stance on all of this: The Govt. has done too much! I really don't wanna play the Dems vs. Repubs game because anyone who knows anything knows the Federal Reserve is callin' the shots for both parties.
 
Which is exactly why we cannot listen to you or opinions like yours. You have no position worth a plugged nickel. Bottom line, we have to do something. We did nothing for 8 years but allow the nation to go down the tubes.

-VG

you do not understand politics vg.

One, damn near every president dealt with some kind of recession in their first year. The successful ones *JFK, and Reagan* cut taxes.

The thing you are missing is the fact that when you do cut taxes/spending, you actually gain more tax payers. Think about it, big tax spenders *companies, private businesses, ect* almost always invest their money in other areas. *the dreaded trickle down effect lol* You actually create MORE jobs ie CREATE MORE TAX PAYERS. Oh wait, you don't understand that concept right?

Just think, if the companies had MORE MONEY, AND NOT CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT HOW OBAMA IS GOING TO HIGHER THEIR TAXES, maybe there would be LESS LAYOFFS? Just a fucking thought!!!

AA aka anti-thoughtone
 
As always, the race card is played by the right in addition to hoping for failure of the country for political gains

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lol

did you even listen to what he said in that video?

btw, this might go on my sig.....
 
I have read from several posters in this forum and in the main that the federal government infusion of resources into the private sector will not work and some say it is doomed to fail. Moreover, they sound morbidly convinced of that.

While it is true the peoples tax dollars have been poorly managed and badly mismanaged the last 8 years, the fundamentals of what makes America work does still exist. With better management and closer watch over the funds market together, should allow enough time for the nation to stabilize and begin to grow again. Looks to be a sound plan to me as I understand the plan. I cannot see the federal government doing nothing and allowing further deterioration.

It is at least my hope that this plan President Obama puts forth does work because as we all know, if whites lose 10 jobs, we lose 30. So I believe we have a personal stake in him succeeding. That's is my position. But this question isn't about my position..it is about yours.

My question for those who don't believe it will work, why don't you personally think or believe that the federal government can manage this crisis?

-VG

Deficit spending only works WHEN SOMEONE IS WILLING TO BUY ON YOUR DEBT. For one, the other nations in the world are facing their own monetary crises and are not in the position to keep investing heavily in the United States. Secondly, deficit spending somewhat worked for Roosevelt because we didnt have the weight of debt we have now and the impending World War helped spurn production.
 
lol

did you even listen to what he said in that video?

btw, this might go on my sig.....

Did YOU even listen to what he said in that video?
Damn, I don't even have to give you the rope. You are so detached from reality.

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BTW, 63% of Asians voted for Obama. Thank you Rush for acknowledging educated people!
 
<font size="5"><center>
Economists predict stimulus effects</font size>
</center>



P O L I T I C O
By LISA LERER &
VICTORIA MCGRANE
February 13, 2009


As the stimulus debate closed, Capitol Hill was consumed by debate over whether the stimulus will, or won’t, succeed.

Politico took five of the largest components of the bill and asked economists of all political stripes for their best predictions.

To be sure, conservatives premised their remarks by saying they would have gone in a completely different direction by relying more on tax cuts. Liberals, by and large, would have rewritten the legislation, too, by adding more spending.

But at the end of the day, the economists concluded that anything pumping money into the economy will help in the near term.

“Most economists say that [the stimulus] is so big it will have to do some good. It will generate some GDP growth,” said U.S. Chamber of Commerce chief economist Martin Regalia.

Here’s a guide to the major parts of the two-year stimulus package and what they are intended to do:


<font size="4">Infrastructure Spending </font size>

The legislation allocates roughly $150 billion to improve America’s infrastructure, with nearly a third of that going to transportation related projects.

Opinion on its effectiveness is split, with some arguing it is among the strongest provisions and others saying the money will take too long to hit the economy.

This is also the section of the legislation where Republicans have identified a relatively small group of specific projects that carry the scent of pork.

  • “It’s okay … [but] no matter how many shovels that are poised to go into the ground, it still takes time” for the impact to be felt, said Bill Hampel, the Credit Union National Association’s economist.

    “To me the biggest requirement of the stimulus package is to break the current near-term downward cycle” of rising job loss, falling consumer confidence and plunging spending, he said.

Others believe Congress structured the infrastructure spending to have a positive effect, with a descent amount of the money hitting the economy in the second half of the year.

And most concur that the longer term economic effects are undeniable.

  • The economy is facing what’s likely to be a long and deep downturn, making the longer term effects of building a critical piece of the package, said Jim Horney, director of federal fiscal policy at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

    “It’s like a time release cold capsule,” Horney said. “Recovery is likely to be slower in this instance, so you do want some of the spending spread out over a longer period of time.”

  • Eric Rasmussen, a free market economist at Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business warns that the money could fund economically inefficient projects.

    “They tend to be projects which wouldn’t get through in normal times because they wouldn’t pass the cost benefit analysis,” he said. “It’s much more prey to special interests then something like a tax cut.”

<font size="4">Tax Cuts for Working Families </font size>

President Barack Obama’s signature tax cut weighs in at a total cost of $116 billion over the next ten years – and it’s expected to deliver the quickest boost to the economy.

The proposal provides a $400 refundable credit for workers making less than $75,000 and an $800 credit for dual-earning couples with incomes of less than $150,000. A partial credit is paid for those making slightly more.

  • The targeted nature of the proposal is what makes it effective, Horney said.

    “You’re getting money to the people who are the most likely to spend it, because they’re struggling day to day to make ends meet,” he said.

  • “This money is going, in many cases, to people who are very close to subsistence,” agreed the Chamber’s Regalia. “If you give them more money, I don’t think that’s going to be saved.”

It’s also a payroll tax credit, meaning that workers will see a roughly $15 increase in their paycheck twice a month, rather than receive a lump sum rebate.

  • That structure will make the tax cut more effective than the stimulus checks sent out in 2008, but the economic impact will still be limited, said Dean Baker co-director of the left-leaning Center for Economic and Policy Research.

    If 60 percent of the money is spent – as opposed to saved, as happened with the 2008 rebate checks – that would add about $40 billion or so to the economy, a sizeable infusion in fast faltering retail markets.

    But even that sum is actually only three-tenths of 1 percent of the country’s Gross Domestic Product, Baker noted, hardly enough to turn the economy around on its own.


<font size="4">Food Stamps/Unemployment/Health care </font size>

The bill includes several provisions totaling about $86 billion to help struggling workers survive the downturn.

The government will subsidize a large portion of COBRA premiums, the health care bridge for workers who lose their jobs, for up to nine months, at a cost of nearly $25 billion for workers making less than $125,000 or working couples making less than $250,000.

The bill would extend unemployment benefits from 20 to 33 weeks at a cost of $27 billion, increase those benefits at a cost of $8.8 billion, and exempt the first $2,400 of benefits from federal income taxes, which costs $4.7 billion.

Finally, the bill would increase food stamp payments by 13.6 percent at a cost of $19.9 billion.

  • ”Social safety net or economic pain mitigation is perfectly appropriate,” says the conservative Heritage Foundation’s senior fellow J.D. Foster, “but they don’t have anything to do with stimulus.”

  • Other economists disagree, saying the money will go into the pockets of those that need it badly because they’ve lost a job or otherwise cannot make ends meet. Their stretched budgets would effectively force them to spend their government assistance – and boost the economy.


<font size="4">Alternative Minimum Tax </font size>

To gain some bipartisan support for the package in the Senate, Democrats agreed to include a nearly $70 billion patch of the alternative minimum tax patch. But this is more politics than stimulus.

Congress has passed a bill preventing middle and upper-income tax payers from getting slammed by the additional tax for the past several years. As a result, few taxpayers anticipate getting hit by the tax — rendering the provision a zero on the stimulative scale, according to economists across the ideological spectrum.

  • “The fact is the AMT patch is something everyone had to expect would happen, and so it had to be more or less factored into people’s plans already,” said Kevin Hassett, director of economic policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think-tank, and an adviser for Republican John McCain’s, presidential bid.

  • Horney notes that by including the $70 billion patch and then limiting the size of the bill, Congress wasted a significant portion of their bill. “The problem is, in putting it in, then you have to limit or get rid of other things,” he said.


<font size="3">State Aid </font size>

The compromise bill includes a $53.6 billion “state stabilization fund” aimed at helping struggling states avoid layoffs and continue services.

The bulk of the money – more than $45 billion – goes to local school districts and bonus grants to states that meet education performance markers. The remainder is for other high priority needs such as police, fire and public safety. On top of that, states also got an $87 billion boost to help pay rising Medicaid rolls.

Many economists praise this spending as the best part of the bill since it can be deployed most quickly to stop layoffs and other spending cuts at the state and local level forced by balanced budget laws.

  • Although the money will fill only half of the total budget gap in the states, the money is critical, Horney said.

    Seeing states lay-off workers and cut benefits “is exactly counter to what you need to try and get the economy going again,” he said.

  • “It should have been bigger,” said Hampel. “You get some of the biggest bang for the buck” by preventing layoffs, since a dollar spent to keep someone in a job is just as effective as one spent to hire a worker – and it takes a lot less time than other forms of spending.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18845.html
 
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