question for UFC fans - NOT mma in general, only UFC

[cranrab]

i'm am by NO means an expert on the UFC. i'm not even a casual fan. beyond a couple names of fighters that i've actually watched, the UFC doesn't really hold my interest.

my question is this: wasn't the ORIGINAL UFC much better? no weight classes? gladiator style tournament? groin shots OK?

i think it was. because if the actual intent was to pit STYLES and DISCIPLINES against one another, it presents a TRUE test of the fighter and his respective discipline to defeat all comers.

the failure of the original UFC, IMO, was poor logistics. fighters dropping out DURING the tournament resulted in the bizarre practice of replacement fighters entering mid-tournament fresh and rested, while the other competitors had already battled.

poor bracketing resulted in tremendous mismatches, and drop outs resulted in disappointment. but the 'solution' of the 'super-match' (royce gracie v. ken shamrock's 2nd matchup OUTSIDE the actual tournament) was also a miserable failure. a 35 minute draw, booed by the fans at the conclusion.

not coincidentally, without those 2 marquee names IN the tournament, it resulted in dan severn securing the UFC 'title'.

another problem with current UFC is the switch over to the 'rounds' system. again, instead of letting the fighters' skills and conditioning decide the outcome, the UFC constrained the fighters (specifically grapplers, wrestlers and bjj practitioners) by implementing a 'round' system which would stand the fighters up and make them start all over again. this was done solely for the benefit of the fans, who prefer a stand up fight and a T/KO by strike, and not for the sport or the fighters.

i say go back to the old way.

end of rant.

 

[Makkonnen]

youre right
there is a video with the actor who played Al Bundy talking about the same thing
it isnt the real ultimate fighter anymore - now its the Ultimate MMA League

The brackets sucked and the league was mismanaged before Dana White got it and he just tried to move it toward boxing to make it profitable.

If they tried the old way it would die again - no athletic commissions would sanction their events and shows would only be put on in limited areas - that would hurt their bottom line - merch, tickets, ad revenue
no way thats happening unless the rules become lax over time

 

[LeroyDibiase]

You have to realize first and foremost, that the original concept of the UFC CLAIMED to be to match disciplines against each other to see who was the best, BUT the real purpose was an informercial for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, specifically Gracie-Barra. They carefully chose non-ground fighters who had no experience with submissions (with the slight exception of Ken Shamrock).

The original tournament format was novel, but like Makk said, it wouldn't be able to be sanctioned in today's market. I do think there needs to be some rules taken back, but I doubt that happens.

 

[mc2]

You have to realize first and foremost, that the original concept of the UFC CLAIMED to be to match disciplines against each other to see who was the best, BUT the real purpose was an informercial for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, specifically Gracie-Barra. They carefully chose non-ground fighters who had no experience with submissions (with the slight exception of Ken Shamrock).

The original tournament format was novel, but like Makk said, it wouldn't be able to be sanctioned in today's market. I do think there needs to be some rules taken back, but I doubt that happens.

A lot of the old UFC matches are on You Tube and I think that those tournaments were crazy.. Its crazy to have to fight up to 4 people in one day.

The UFC was also getting even out of control the UFC 8 David vs Goliath tournament. Some of the Davids did win but that was a set up for serious injury.

It failed in its old format because there were basically new rules, ( no weight classes, rounds, time limits, etc...) that it gained the attention of law makers which forced them to regulate the sport (it was almost banned)

I like it better in its current format because fighters need to utilize their skills to prevail more than in the old format where one could utilize their size, or clothing to prevail.

For example Royce Gracie would use his Gi to get a better grip on his opponents for submissions. Not taking anything away from Gracie, but having the Gi was an advantage especially when people got sweaty.

 

[cranrab]

You have to realize first and foremost, that the original concept of the UFC CLAIMED to be to match disciplines against each other to see who was the best, BUT the real purpose was an informercial for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, specifically Gracie-Barra. They carefully chose non-ground fighters who had no experience with submissions (with the slight exception of Ken Shamrock).

i know this, i was there. literally.

i was there when one of the fighters was asked what style he fought with AND HE MADE UP THE NAME ON THE SPOT, submitting the name of a korean soup.

1 of the glaring weaknesses of early UFC events was the piss-poor commentary (i'm still no fan of joe rogan, either). i remember they had 1 supposed 'expert' on there who didn't even recognize that royce gracie was putting dan severn in a triangle choke.

and jim brown!

it was a fantastic marketing ploy by the gracie family, and it worked for the most part, putting their brand on the map.

Its crazy to have to fight up to 4 people in one day.

exactly. which is why it had some appeal to me. fights matching opponents of different weight classes? fantastic! fights with multiple opponents (in succession)? outstanding! if i wanted weight classes, rounds, and such i can always watch boxing. original UFC never had the spectre of fixing (or early stoppages), but now?

I like it better in its current format because fighters need to utilize their skills to prevail more than in the old format where one could utilize their size, or clothing to prevail.

For example Royce Gracie would use his Gi to get a better grip on his opponents for submissions. Not taking anything away from Gracie, but having the Gi was an advantage especially when people got sweaty.

but isn't that the essence of a fight? to use any and all means available to incapacitate your opponent? why limit a contestant if those methods are proven tactics?

the gracies use the gi to implement chokes. that's valid to me. and every participant (to my knowledge) was able to wear a gi if they chose. i agree in part, that some of the antics were unusual and generally frowned upon (royce gracie pulling hair or fighters applying baby oil), but wasn't the mantra "(almost) anything goes" and "no holds barred"?

 

[LeroyDibiase]

i know this, i was there. literally.

i was there when one of the fighters was asked what style he fought with AND HE MADE UP THE NAME ON THE SPOT, submitting the name of a korean soup.

1 of the glaring weaknesses of early UFC events was the piss-poor commentary (i'm still no fan of joe rogan, either). i remember they had 1 supposed 'expert' on there who didn't even recognize that royce gracie was putting dan severn in a triangle choke.

and jim brown!

You buggin. Jim Brown was great. You have to realize that no one knew what they were getting into. At all.

it was a fantastic marketing ploy by the gracie family, and it worked for the most part, putting their brand on the map.

Basically. You don't think BJJ without thinking Gracie-Barra.

 

[mc2]

i know this, i was there. literally.

i was there when one of the fighters was asked what style he fought with AND HE MADE UP THE NAME ON THE SPOT, submitting the name of a korean soup.

1 of the glaring weaknesses of early UFC events was the piss-poor commentary (i'm still no fan of joe rogan, either). i remember they had 1 supposed 'expert' on there who didn't even recognize that royce gracie was putting dan severn in a triangle choke.

and jim brown!

it was a fantastic marketing ploy by the gracie family, and it worked for the most part, putting their brand on the map.



exactly. which is why it had some appeal to me. fights matching opponents of different weight classes? fantastic! fights with multiple opponents (in succession)? outstanding! if i wanted weight classes, rounds, and such i can always watch boxing. original UFC never had the spectre of fixing (or early stoppages), but now?



but isn't that the essence of a fight? to use any and all means available to incapacitate your opponent? why limit a contestant if those methods are proven tactics?

the gracies use the gi to implement chokes. that's valid to me. and every participant (to my knowledge) was able to wear a gi if they chose. i agree in part, that some of the antics were unusual and generally frowned upon (royce gracie pulling hair or fighters applying baby oil), but wasn't the mantra "(almost) anything goes" and "no holds barred"?

I see where you're coming from, but I like the new format better because the focus is on skill and allows room for more fighters in the sport.

With the old format, light weight fighters like Miguel Torres & Uriah Faber could be matched against fighters like Brock Lesnar or Frank Mir.. Back when there were no weight classes the UFC was mostly dominated by heavyweights and there were almost no fighters below 170..

The new rules have allowed the sport to grow, which means more money and I cant see the old format coming back in the USA. It may be able to take hold in another country.

 

[flatliners01]

The original UFC had too many flaws in it. Tank Abbott was the only one smart enough to start wearing gloves. In the tournament you would fight about 3 times so when you got to the finals you might end up against a fresh last minute sub who didn't even that night. Groin kicks I could do without & punches to the back of the head too.

The only thing I agree with is the no weight class. In the real world you dont pick and choose people you fight in bar/club, etc so it was cool seeing it in the ring.

 

[cranrab]

Groin kicks I could do without & punches to the back of the head too.

The only thing I agree with is the no weight class. In the real world you dont pick and choose people you fight in bar/club, etc so it was cool seeing it in the ring.

though i'm not a proponent of using groin shots in sports competition, i think they should be allowed. more of an incentive to make sure you incapacitate your opponent as quickly as possible to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

just as a person may encounter an opponent not of the same weight class in the real world, you may also encounter an opponent willing to use groin shots and strike you in the back of the head. no?

 

[Makkonnen]

A lot of you are forgetting the original UFC was supposed to be to find out who was the best fighter in the world period - any size any discipline
That said it makes you wonder how 500lb black sumos get a shot

The tournament style combat is ok with me - worked great in pride and works great in martial arts competitions- cant say whoever won those isnt shit- fighting 3 times in one day against top notch talent? Only downside is people not being able to continue due to injury and losers getting to continue on

 

[Spectrum]

A lot of the old UFC matches are on You Tube and I think that those tournaments were crazy.. Its crazy to have to fight up to 4 people in one day.
.

Reminds me of those vale tudo fights where a fighter would have multiple fights in one day. I remember in Rickson Gracie's video "Choke" he actually said which move he was going to beat dude with before the final match started...this little chinese dude was fucking people up and Rickson just methodically worked his way to a submission.I think it was a leg bar.... he said he wasn't going to "hit" the dude the entire fight (Royler was getting pissed)...and he just worked him...back in those days..once a Gracie got you on the ground...it was lights out...

 

[Helico-pterFunk]

I like the current format and being able to watch people in SPECIFIC weight classes.

I like seeing Miguel Torres own people at 135.

Cats like Pulver, Faber, and so on doing well at 145.

BJ Penn showin' skill at 155.

GSP representin' for my fellow Canadians at 170.

Anderson Silva straight killin' cats at 185.

Rashad showin' the world wassup at 205.

And people like Mir, Lesnar, Fedor and others representin' for the big cats.

 

[SwtLaotiaNix7]

the #1 reason why the tournament style and open weights will not return to the UFC is fighter safety.

 

[tebriel69]

the ufc truly was the ultimate competition for fighters. very similar to battle arenas of past times. where gladiators got together and every tom, dick and harry could just battle it out as a test of manhood.

however, it was completely unsafe and at times one sided. think about it. a 135 lb guy versus the 210 lb guy? even if the little guy had all the skill. ONE PUNCH and its all over. groin kicks? that could seriously ruin a person for life.

it is considerably boring at times in the ufc. we've seen fighters scared to fight each other, (i.e. sylvia vs arlovski III) aka, fat ass vs glass jaw. or we've seen fights where the fighters simply hug each other on the ground all day. the ufc needs to simply implement rules that provide safety AND entertainment for the crowd. for instance, if they'd simply adopt the yellow card violation that PRIDE had, that'd probably fix a lot of issues right there. it makes no sense to pay fighters 6 figures just to see them have a half hearted sparring session. you are paid to fight, so fight. if you dont, you lose part of your purse.

thats my take anyway.

 

[Helico-pterFunk]

the ufc needs to simply implement rules that provide safety AND entertainment for the crowd. for instance, if they'd simply adopt the yellow card violation that PRIDE had, that'd probably fix a lot of issues right there. it makes no sense to pay fighters 6 figures just to see them have a half hearted sparring session. you are paid to fight, so fight. if you dont, you lose part of your purse.

thats my take anyway.

Interesting points ^

 

[LeroyDibiase]

I agree. That yellow card needs to come into play YESTERDAY.

Especially for boring ass Machida. I can't wait for him to lose, so people can hop off his nuts. He hasn't beat anybody. Don't say BJ Penn.

 

[flatliners01]

just as a person may encounter an opponent not of the same weight class in the real world, you may also encounter an opponent willing to use groin shots and strike you in the back of the head. no?

Yeah you got a point there.

 

[LeroyDibiase]

I agree about that point, but you need weightclasses because it's evolved into a sport.

 

[cranrab]

a 135 lb guy versus the 210 lb guy? even if the little guy had all the skill. ONE PUNCH and its all over.

but that's the beauty, isn't it?

wasn't that exactly the lure that brought in people who had never heard of BJJ in the early 1990's? there's NO way royce gracie could give up 25-30 lbs to ken shamrock and win, right?

i believe it was exactly that combination of up until that time an unknown quantity (ground fighting) and compelling matches across weight classes (royce gracie v. dan severn) that made people watch.

sure, there were some who were looking for a bloody trainwreck, but those were discouraged by watching the number of big belly dudes gasping for air and voluntarily dropping out after the 1st round.

fighters jumping out of weight class is what made PRIDE enticing too. look at sakuraba v. randleman. sakuraba v. rampage. sakuraba was a natural 175 lb. guy who moved up to 190 lbs. to fight guys who came in at 205 lbs. AND WON!

but he may be the best argument against fighting out of weight class too. look how many injuries he suffered (and losses) when he fought the bigger guys.

 

[Spectrum]

fighters jumping out of weight class is what made PRIDE enticing too. look at sakuraba v. randleman. sakuraba v. rampage. sakuraba was a natural 175 lb. guy who moved up to 190 lbs. to fight guys who came in at 205 lbs. AND WON!

but he may be the best argument against fighting out of weight class too. look how many injuries he suffered (and losses) when he fought the bigger guys.

Yeah. This is not like boxing. The size "advantageous really" is inconsequential in most cases...especially considering that most competitive fights will be won and lost on the ground..and technique on the ground really has nothing to do with brute force nor size. I've seen wildly outsized fighters kick the shit out of large fighters...especially in those International Vale Tudo tournaments that used to run

 

[LeroyDibiase]

but that's the beauty, isn't it?

wasn't that exactly the lure that brought in people who had never heard of BJJ in the early 1990's? there's NO way royce gracie could give up 25-30 lbs to ken shamrock and win, right?

i believe it was exactly that combination of up until that time an unknown quantity (ground fighting) and compelling matches across weight classes (royce gracie v. dan severn) that made people watch.

sure, there were some who were looking for a bloody trainwreck, but those were discouraged by watching the number of big belly dudes gasping for air and voluntarily dropping out after the 1st round.

fighters jumping out of weight class is what made PRIDE enticing too. look at sakuraba v. randleman. sakuraba v. rampage. sakuraba was a natural 175 lb. guy who moved up to 190 lbs. to fight guys who came in at 205 lbs. AND WON!

but he may be the best argument against fighting out of weight class too. look how many injuries he suffered (and losses) when he fought the bigger guys.

That's the difference though. Back then, the fighters were one-dimensional. Nowadays, they are too multi-faceted for it to work. There's no way GSP can take on Fedor. Or Randy. Or Brock. Or Rashad. Or Rampage. Or Anderson Silva. If you did do the "cross-weight class", you'd have to have some offset in talent.

Saku fighting Randleman and the like was because of the freakshow appeal. A lot of his fights were tainted by the Yakuza influence/bribes. He was getting KILLED against those fighters. He fought Wand three times and got murdered, CroCop and got killed, Lil Nog killed, he tapped a gassed out Randleman (who is one-dimensional).

Like I said earlier, EVERYONE trains BJJ. Everyone trains boxing, etc. So you have a 225 well-rounded guy against a 170 well-rounded. It can't work.

 

[LeroyDibiase]

Yeah. This is not like boxing. The size "advantageous really" is inconsequential in most cases...especially considering that most competitive fights will be won and lost on the ground..and technique on the ground really has nothing to do with brute force nor size. I've seen wildly outsized fighters kick the shit out of large fighters...especially in those International Vale Tudo tournaments that used to run

See above post. Everyone is training everything. A guy like Kongo (with no ground game) will not lose to anyone who's not a heavyweight. Even if they are a super ground fighter.

 

[Spectrum]

See above post. Everyone is training everything. A guy like Kongo (with no ground game) will not lose to anyone who's not a heavyweight. Even if they are a super ground fighter.

You will notice that I've mentioned the Gracies and also events like Vale Tudo that are no longer operating. So I will admit that my references were a bit dated. I don't disagree with you at all that the game has changed a lot over the last decade. I agree completely in the sense that fighters, in this new era, are definitely more well rounded. However, I'm still sticking to the point that weight and size, in MMA, does not play the same role as it plays in a sport like boxing. A great welterweight or middleweight is not going to beat ANY decent Heavyweight fighting at that weight difference... he couldn't hurt the heavyweight nor be able to take his punches. HOWEVER, there is a MUCH higher chance...and I mean exponentially greater, for it to happen in MMA because for the most part, once the fight go to the ground and majority end up going to the ground, size is not as important, and technique becomes the dominant factor in terms of bars, chokes, etc. A superior ground fighter will eat an inferior, though larger/stronger, fighter on the ground for lunch with ease. I've seen it happen all the time.

 

[LeroyDibiase]

You will notice that I've mentioned the Gracies and also events like Vale Tudo that are no longer operating. So I will admit that my references were a bit dated. I don't disagree with you at all that the game has changed a lot over the last decade. I agree completely in the sense that fighters, in this new era, are definitely more well rounded. However, I'm still sticking to the point that weight and size, in MMA, does not play the same role as it plays in a sport like boxing. A great welterweight or middleweight is not going to beat ANY decent Heavyweight fighting at that weight difference... he couldn't hurt the heavyweight nor be able to take his punches. HOWEVER, there is a MUCH higher chance...and I mean exponentially greater, for it to happen in MMA because for the most part, once the fight go to the ground and majority end up going to the ground, size is not as important, and technique becomes the dominant factor in terms of bars, chokes, etc. A superior ground fighter will eat an inferior, though larger/stronger, fighter on the ground for lunch with ease. I've seen it happen all the time.

Well, in boxing, you're basically limited to punching. It's all about who punches faster and harder. So a big guy will kill a little man because of POWER. In MMA, there's so many variables, that the size difference is offset a little bit. However, the bigger differences that could exist in the past can no longer when a big nigga like Brock Lesnar is training BJJ. Yes, Royce can probably tap Brock on the ground (it would be very hard as even BJJ black belt Frank Mir had trouble getting armbars on Brock and Mir is 250), but how would he get Brock down. Brock would KO him standing. Matt Hughes killed Royce 3 years ago and Matt Hughes would get murdered by Brock.

You look at someone like Rashad Evans, who fought at HW during TUF. That worked because he was fighting scrubs and his size difference was offset by his skill. Had he continued in that division, he would be killed.

 

[Helico-pterFunk]

This is turning into a great thread. Big ups to all the heads with responses ^

 

[Spectrum]

Well, in boxing, you're basically limited to punching. It's all about who punches faster and harder. So a big guy will kill a little man because of POWER. In MMA, there's so many variables, that the size difference is offset a little bit. However, the bigger differences that could exist in the past can no longer when a big nigga like Brock Lesnar is training BJJ. Yes, Royce can probably tap Brock on the ground (it would be very hard as even BJJ black belt Frank Mir had trouble getting armbars on Brock and Mir is 250), but how would he get Brock down. Brock would KO him standing. Matt Hughes killed Royce 3 years ago and Matt Hughes would get murdered by Brock.

You look at someone like Rashad Evans, who fought at HW during TUF. That worked because he was fighting scrubs and his size difference was offset by his skill. Had he continued in that division, he would be killed.

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

 

[Helico-pterFunk]

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http://rapidshare.com/files/189635156/Attitude.pl.WEC.38.HDTV.XviD-KYR.part8.rar

As always, thanks to original uploaders.

 

[Helico-pterFunk]

http://www.pancrase.org/fedor-the-ufc-champ-killer/01-27-2009/
http://www.pancrase.org/category/fedor-emelianenko/
http://www.pancrase.org/

 

[Makkonnen]

See above post. Everyone is training everything. A guy like Kongo (with no ground game) will not lose to anyone who's not a heavyweight. Even if they are a super ground fighter.

Youre crazy. Kongo is a bum. He even lost in judo to Karo
Kongo has some explosive movement and thats all. His skill level is low and he isnt getting any better.
To see you say that and belittle Machida shows me how nuts you really are.

 

[LeroyDibiase]

Youre crazy. Kongo is a bum. He even lost in judo to Karo
Kongo has some explosive movement and thats all. His skill level is low and he isnt getting any better.
To see you say that and belittle Machida shows me how nuts you really are.

Kongo is not a "bum" He's easily a top 15-20 in his class. He's too strong and fast and good at striking for anyone who's not a HW to beat him. They gtonna take him down? No.

I've said nothing about Machida except that his style is boring and that he doesn't deserve a title shot because he hasn't beaten a top 10 fighter.

 

[Helico-pterFunk]

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[shaddyvillethug]

>>> all

 

[cranrab]

just wanted to revisit the topic of scheduled fights where opponents are not in the same weight class.

minotauro is 1 of my favorite MMA fighters, and probably the only BJJ fighter i am willing to watch. i like his methodical style. minotauro matched up against bob sapp (ok, lack of merit aside), and submitted him. part of the appeal of the matchup was that bob sapp outweighed minotauro by more than 100 lbs.

on a side note, my other favorite MMA fighter is emelianenko. he's defeated minotauro 3 times so far.

 

[LeroyDibiase]

just wanted to revisit the topic of scheduled fights where opponents are not in the same weight class.

minotauro is 1 of my favorite MMA fighters, and probably the only BJJ fighter i am willing to watch. i like his methodical style. minotauro matched up against bob sapp (ok, lack of merit aside), and submitted him. part of the appeal of the matchup was that bob sapp outweighed minotauro by more than 100 lbs.

on a side note, my other favorite MMA fighter is emelianenko. he's defeated minotauro 3 times so far.

Yeah, but Bob Sapp has NO skills. You put Minotauro in there with a 330 lber trained in BJJ and standup and he will get killed.

 

[Makkonnen]

Kongo is not a "bum" He's easily a top 15-20 in his class. He's too strong and fast and good at striking for anyone who's not a HW to beat him. They gtonna take him down? No.

My total apologies man- for some reason i was thinking Sokoudjou not Kongo.

I would like to see Kongo Lesnar or Remy Bojanski vs Kongo

I've said nothing about Machida except that his style is boring and that he doesn't deserve a title shot because he hasn't beaten a top 10 fighter.

Again my bad for interpreting your remarks as questioning his skill. UFC title shots are weird you know Dana just does what he wants. Look at Lesnar. He's good but has he really fought his way to the top? How many other heavies just get shots at top guys like Mir?
Look at other guys like Nate Diaz, who win and win but never get shots.

UFC needs a real commission rather than Dana's whims. I hope the fighters form a union or sue him. He's trying to cut into their sponsor action too now.