PIGGYBACK off of the TYSON thread

[thetruth]

PIGGYBACK off of the TYSON thread: ALI vs TYSON

WHO would WIN in a boxing match in their respective primes TYSON or ALI

TYSON's power was and still is unmatched but ALI for a heavyweight was probably the FASTEST EVER, and his reach was pretty great. ALI was a ICON and TYSOn is a fuckup. SO put personal differences aside and judge them by how they fought in their primes and in the ring.

WHO you got
check out their highlights:
ALI
[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/aZe_ciPjqmk[/FLASH]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZe_ciPjqmk

[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/RmaHGY7BEog[/FLASH]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaHGY7BEog

TYSON watch at 2:53
[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/bvZ2roRDPYU[/FLASH]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZ2roRDPYU

[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/_ycjY3Yu-NQ[/FLASH]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ycjY3Yu-NQ

 

[usual suspect]

nice post tyson was the shit

 

[Kratos]

Ali, easy.

Tyson has never faced anyone who would have taken away the psychological advantage as quickly as Ali would have. And that is the area where Tyson truly was his weakest when all is said and done. Once that psychological cloak of invincibility was taken from Tyson he was never the same.

But I guess it also depends on which Tyson we are talking about as far as how great his chances would have been. The Tyson under Rooney's number system could have taken Ali out only because he had a support system and an actual "system" to follow in more of a machine-like manner which may have obviated any psychological advantage of Ali. But once Tyson was basically on his own out there (Don King days) it was just a matter of time before someone got to him.

 

[smiffnwessun]

Ali, easy.

Tyson has never faced anyone who would have taken away the psychological advantage as quickly as Ali would have. And that is the area where Tyson truly was his weakest when all is said and done. Once that psychological cloak of invincibility was taken from Tyson he was never the same.

But I guess it also depends on which Tyson we are talking about as far as how great his chances would have been. The Tyson under Rooney's number system could have taken Ali out only because he had a support system and an actual "system" to follow in more of a machine-like manner which may have obviated any psychological advantage of Ali. But once Tyson was basically on his own out there (Don King days) it was just a matter of time before someone got to him.

I co-sign that statement because the fight would have begun way before the contest in the ring, the taunting and the remarks which would have been directed at tyson personally would have shaped public opinion and might have affected tyson. Tyson was raw power and amazing athleticism but i dont see him being able to improvise if faced with a serious challenge in the ring or if his game plan wasnt effective.

 

[Spectrum]

This topic comes up once a year. Ali would jab Tyson to death. Tyson would have "puncher's chance" of winning because of knockout power, but Ali was a such a superior boxer in his prime, compared to Tyson that Ali would have a huge advantage. Also, like Kratos mention, Ali would be work on Tyson's fragile mind well before the fight even occurred. Ali also fought world class punchers we all know Ali had a chin.he could take a punch. Ali was simply too fast and intelligent of a boxer for Tyson..even a Tyson in his prime who actually had some boxing skills before he went to Prison.

 

[da_monumental_1]

Tyson beating a guy who ruled the deepest, most talent laden era in Heavyweight history? Hells NO! If Ali can take a flush shot from the Acorn, Ali has nothing to worry about. Nobody, not even George Foreman, hit as hard as Earnie Shavers. Evander even said an old Foreman hit harder that Tyson.

By the way, Ali already beat "Tyson" twice. Never heard of Floyd Patterson?

 

[Blunt]

Ali was a true "boxer," Tyson was a brawler with few (if any) real "boxing" skills. Ali, and especially Cassius Clay, would tear him up (in the manner of Sonny Liston).

In fact, Joe Frazier (a boxer and a brawler) would've likely pummelled Tyson. Now THAT'S a fight I would've loved to see.

 

[Spectrum]

Ali was a true "boxer," Tyson was a brawler with few (if any) real "boxing" skills..

Completely disagree with this unless you are talking about the second half of his career. Tyson had great accuracy, power, hand speed, timing, and threw great combo punches early in his year. Ironically, he was also known for us defense where he always kept his gloves up over his face..the "peak-a-boo" style. It wasn't until he lost both D'amato and Rooney did his boxing skills begin to deteriorate. Don't get a twisted, Tyson, especially early in his career, was a very skilled boxer.

 

[Spectrum]

.

In fact, Joe Frazier (a boxer and a brawler) would've likely pummelled Tyson. Now THAT'S a fight I would've loved to see.

Frazier in his prime and Tyson in his prime would be a hell of a fight considering their styles....

 

[thundamike]

Ali was a true "boxer," Tyson was a brawler with few (if any) real "boxing" skills. Ali, and especially Cassius Clay, would tear him up (in the manner of Sonny Liston).

In fact, Joe Frazier (a boxer and a brawler) would've likely pummelled Tyson. Now THAT'S a fight I would've loved to see.

Blunt beat me to it. I don't believe that Tyson could beat a Joe Frazier or a George Foreman. George Foreman was too big and powerful...Joe Frazier had a powerful left hook and a charging/bobbing style that gave EVERYBODY problems...even George Foreman. George Foreman took him out fairly quick but admitted that it was the only fighter he was afraid of. He also mentioned it was the hardest he has ever been hit. Ali outboxed both fighters and would do the same to Tyson.

 

[da_monumental_1]

Blunt, I wouldn't call Ali a "pure boxer" per se, more unorthodox than a "boxing cutie". He was no Willie Pep. He keep his hands down and bent back to avoid punches. He didn't duck or parry with his gloves. Ali couldn't throw a proper left hook or uppercut to save his life. That's usually what got him in trouble and knocked on his ass.

Pre-Douglas Tyson was a boxer-puncher as well. He actually had a decent jab back then. I distinctly remember the late, great Eddie Futch referring to a young Michael Gerald Tyson as having "more talent in his pinky, than most heavyweights have in their careers". Mike's problem was character. When the going got tough, he fell apart. Better known as the front runner.

 

[thetruth]

Completely disagree with this unless you are talking about the second half of his career. Tyson had great accuracy, power, hand speed, timing, and threw great combo punches early in his year. Ironically, he was also known for us defense where he always kept his gloves up over his face..the "peak-a-boo" style. It wasn't until he lost both D'amato and Rooney did his boxing skills begin to deteriorate. Don't get a twisted, Tyson, especially early in his career, was a very skilled boxer.

I think people are getting his personality mixed with how he could fight. Frazier did Beat Ali and he had a similar style to Tyson. The Tyson in his Prime with Cus D'mato would have a great chance at beating Ali. Ali fought people before the actual fight, that was his advantage. Once Cus D'mato died Tyson was never the same. It was as if he was the only one who could tame him. I think Tyson could have beat all the people Ali beat just as easily, Liston, Foreman, and Frazier.

Lets look at the fight in the ring not the one outside of it. Just pure boxing. People look at Ali and think Icon and look at Tyson and think unstable but with cus dude was a problem and he would have given Ali a run for his money.

 

[Blunt]

It wasn't until he lost both D'amato and Rooney did his boxing skills begin to deteriorate. Don't get a twisted, Tyson, especially early in his career, was a very skilled boxer.

I disagree. He was "set-up" throughout much of his early career to fight a bunch of "stiffs" where all he had to do was bulldoze them in the early rounds (and build up his "undefeated," "raging bull"-type rep). No "boxing" skills were required until later in his career, at which point he showed he didn't have any.

 

[Blunt]

Blunt, I wouldn't call Ali a "pure boxer" per se, more unorthodox than a "boxing cutie". He was no Willie Pep. He keep his hands down and bent back to avoid punches. He didn't duck or parry with his gloves. Ali couldn't throw a proper left hook or uppercut to save his life. That's usually what got him in trouble and knocked on his ass.

Ali didn't get "knocked on his ass" during his early prime. His footwork alone would wear a plodder like Tyson out.

 

[elchoccolatte]

Ali = SmartNess...

Tyson= Power...

 

[thetruth]

It was the fact that Cus Dmato adopted and took care of him. once he died tyson fell apart mentally he was not the same. I am sure he had character flaws before all of that but that was the proverbial straw, his death.

 

[Spectrum]

I disagree. He was "set-up" throughout much of his early career to fight a bunch of "stiffs" where all he had to do was bulldoze them in the early rounds (and build up his "undefeated," "raging bull"-type rep). No "boxing" skills were required until later in his career, at which point he showed he didn't have any.

I would agree that like most young boxers, Tyson was given a lot of matches to pad his record. But that is nothing new in boxing. However, to say that Tyson never had any boxing skills is way off. If you look at pre-prison bouts, you saw a boxer how who never put his gloves down on defense, who could duck punches and counter strong,who had unbelievable timing, and who moved great laterally and could even throw a good jab. He was skilled. The problem is that once he lost his real ringside and training help and went to prison as well.. he was essentially his own trainer and operated his workouts. You can even look at the film and see how his movement deteriorated, his timing never returned, and he went from a boxer who threw incredible combos to a boxer that only looked for the big knockout punch.

What we saw late in his career against boxers like Lewis was a boxer who had deteriorated and was a mental case. He didn't display the skills needed to win those fights because they had long deteriorated. But it is erroneous to say that he never had those skills. That was an EFFECT of skill deterioration and says nothing as to whether he ever was skilled or not in the first place.

 

[da_monumental_1]

I think people are getting his personality mixed with how he could fight. Frazier did Beat Ali and he had a similar style to Tyson. The Tyson in his Prime with Cus D'mato would have a great chance at beating Ali. Ali fought people before the actual fight, that was his advantage. Once Cus D'mato died Tyson was never the same. It was as if he was the only one who could tame him. I think Tyson could have beat all the people Ali beat just as easily, Liston, Foreman, and Frazier.

Lets look at the fight in the ring not the one outside of it. Just pure boxing. People look at Ali and think Icon and look at Tyson and think unstable but with cus dude was a problem and he would have given Ali a run for his money.

Can't any of you guys even do a google search? D'Amato died a year before Mike became champ. No one was talking about Mike losing his skills prior to his incarceration. When he lost to Douglas, that aura of invincibility was gone.

A recent example is Roy Jones Jr. Did anyone expect Glen Johnson (not known as a puncher) scoring a devastating KO worse than the one Tarver gave Jones? Once that aura is gone, you'll never get it back. Any future opponent from then on known that you too are a man, not superhuman.

 

[da_monumental_1]

Ali didn't get "knocked on his ass" during his early prime. His footwork alone would wear a plodder like Tyson out.

Ali got knocked on his ass by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper prior to the Liston fight. Ali was on planet Mars, maybe even Jupiter. Hell, a lot of people thought Doug Jones won that fight, myself included. The Cooper fight is the infamous "split glove" fight.

Ali vs. Cooper I (fight prior to Ali vs. Liston I)
[flash]http://www.youtube.com/v/jnEDM4EC5kw[/flash]

Add Sonny Banks to that list too.

 

[thetruth]

just imagine if Tyson was Ali's size that would be fucking crazy. anybody that says differently is crazy. Yall making ali out to be unstoppable, Ken Norton did beat Ali, even though he avenged the loss 6months later. some even said Norton won their last fight even though he loss again. from wiki "The January 1998 issue of Boxing Monthly listed Ali-Norton as the fifth most disputed title fight decision in boxing history".

 

[Spectrum]

Can't any of you guys even do a google search? D'Amato died a year before Mike became champ. No one was talking about Mike losing his skills prior to his incarceration. When he lost to Douglas, that aura of invincibility was gone.

A recent example is Roy Jones Jr. Did anyone expect Glen Johnson (not known as a puncher) scoring a devastating KO worse than the one Tarver gave Jones? Once that aura is gone, you'll never get it back. Any future opponent from then on known that you too are a man, not superhuman.

I agree that the aura of invincibility was gone with the loss to Douglas;however, to say that Tyson had absolutely no boxing skills is false. He didn't immediately lose his timing, countering, combo throwing ability after he loss D'amato and Rooney but you can clearly see the gradual decline.

I agree on the Roy Jones case...however, they are bit different. Tyson could actually take a punch. We never see Jones get hit..and once he get hit..we noticed he had a super thin glass jaw.he has no chin whatsover... the speed goes..he gets hit..end of story.

 

[thetruth]

Can't any of you guys even do a google search? D'Amato died a year before Mike became champ. No one was talking about Mike losing his skills prior to his incarceration. When he lost to Douglas, that aura of invincibility was gone.

A recent example is Roy Jones Jr. Did anyone expect Glen Johnson (not known as a puncher) scoring a devastating KO worse than the one Tarver gave Jones? Once that aura is gone, you'll never get it back. Any future opponent from then on known that you too are a man, not superhuman.

i know he died in 85 but the point was mentally he was lost because dmato adopted him. Im assuming Initially it did not affect him because he prob had some of the same people around him. As the years go on no one is their to tame him so he loses perspective and Tyson did fire Rooney in '88.Tyson also tried to severe ties with his promoter and manager Bill Clayton in 1988 and then Don King came into the Picture after that it was over.

Tyson is not going to fall to pieces immediately after he dies but it seemed as though it was a gradual shift until the Buster Douglas loss. Then he was exposed for real and the aura was gone.

 

[da_monumental_1]

I agree that the aura of invincibility was gone with the loss to Douglas;however, to say that Tyson had absolutely no boxing skills is false. He didn't immediately lose his timing, countering, combo throwing ability after he loss D'amato and Rooney but you can clearly see the gradual decline.

I agree on the Roy Jones case...however, they are bit different. Tyson could actually take a punch. We never see Jones get hit..and once he get hit..we noticed he had a super thin glass jaw.he has no chin whatsover... the speed goes..he gets hit..end of story.

I was agreeing with you about Mike having skills.

Roy had a chin (a long time ago). It held up when he fought McClellan in the amateur semifinal. I wish I still had that tape. Here's a secret a lot of people don't know. Roy didn't wear headgear like he was supposed to while sparring sometimes. I've seen it with my own eyes. He used to come to my small ass city sometimes to train with the Baker brothers from Orrum, NC. I think that's where the damage came from. I think there's neurological damage and he can't take a punch worth a damn anymore.

I'll never forget when one of my friends sparred with Jones and got a lucky shot in.

The scenario:
Jab, Right hand, Jab
Three steps around my friend while he was covered up.
Left hook 2x, right body shot.
Over.

 

[Mrfreddygoodbud]

Ali for sure....

there is no way in hell, tyson hit harder than foreman in his prime...

george had the strength to still fuck heads up after 40...


tyson had a hard time with a bum on the street asking for his autograph...


I love mike tyson, but that bullshyt stint in jail, really fucked him up.. but despite that, he wouldnt have been able to fuck with ali........


ali would have buster douglas his ass, all day........... and ali had way better footwork than buster...

tyson would have been baffled and the dope would have been roped!!!!


oh and 9/11 was created just to attack Iraq!!!! and just a heads up, they are trying to scheme something up for Iran, but its hard to do, now that they are still trying to cover up 9/11.

in fact if it wasnt for the smart Americans, asking questions......

there would have been a second attack on the subways, but they overlooked so many errors on the first set up, the had to go back to the drawing board on this one..


God Bless the thinking Americans.....that question EVERYTHING!!!!!


just had to say that doc

 

[Spectrum]

I was agreeing with you about Mike having skills.

Roy had a chin (a long time ago). It held up when he fought McClellan in the amateur semifinal. I wish I still had that tape. Here's a secret a lot of people don't know. Roy didn't wear headgear like he was supposed to while sparring sometimes. I've seen it with my own eyes. He used to come to my small ass city sometimes to train with the Baker brothers from Orrum, NC. I think that's where the damage came from. I think there's neurological damage and he can't take a punch worth a damn anymore.

I'll never forget when one of my friends sparred with Jones and got a lucky shot in.

The scenario:
Jab, Right hand, Jab
Three steps around my friend while he was covered up.
Left hook 2x, right body shot.
Over.

Oh my bad...my reading comprehension must be struggling today

See...you are a serious boxing fan... I haven't seen much of the early Roy Jones except for in the Olympics so I wouldn't know. Honestly, the first fight were I really saw Jones get his was in the first Tarver fight(which I thought Jones LOST). But then those followup fights when he caught those haymakers and was done really exposed him as having no chin.

Maybe he really did suffer some damage early in his career... because when he catches a solid punch to the head.. it is LIGHT OUT with no return for Jones.. i mean..he is beyond suspect..he has NO CHIN whatsoever.

EDIT.. HOLD UP... just reread your post. That mofo used to spar without wearing headgear.. what was the logic on that..

 

[da_monumental_1]

Don't forget Jones doing a little what I like to call "twinkle toes" when he fought "Honey Boy" Lou Del Valle. (He had a fine sister) I think Lou was mad at Roy for real, because Roy use to dust his sister. Roy wasn't seriously hurt after his first career knockdown, but I do think he was a little buzzed. Luckily, the bell ranged. It was funny how he went down. Same with Hopkins when he fought Mercado the first time.

The disregard for headgear? Remember Roy's rap album? "Mr. Untouchable or Unstoppable"? He really believed that bullshit.

Man, I miss Darth Harlem. You should have been around for his post fight vids.

 

[Spectrum]

Don't forget Jones doing a little what I like to call "twinkle toes" when he fought "Honey Boy" Lou Del Valle. (He had a fine sister) I think Lou was mad at Roy for real, because Roy use to dust his sister. Roy wasn't seriously hurt after his first career knockdown, but I do think he was a little buzzed. Luckily, the bell ranged. It was funny how he went down. Same with Hopkins when he fought Mercado the first time.

The disregard for headgear? Remember Roy's rap album? "Mr. Untouchable or Unstoppable"? He really believed that bullshit.

Man, I miss Darth Harlem. You should have been around for his post fight vids.

Yeah..and and his lack of defense and lazy fighting with his hands down bullshit caught up with him when he speed was effected.

Yeah man... Darth Harlem is missed fo real..

 

[troutwine]

Don't forget Jones doing a little what I like to call "twinkle toes" when he fought "Honey Boy" Lou Del Valle. (He had a fine sister)

Pics?????

 

[da_monumental_1]

These are the best pics I can find of her. These pics of her (out of the ring) don't do her justice. She could whup most of the guys on BGOL too.

 

[enybeast]

I agree that the aura of invincibility was gone with the loss to Douglas;however, to say that Tyson had absolutely no boxing skills is false. He didn't immediately lose his timing, countering, combo throwing ability after he loss D'amato and Rooney but you can clearly see the gradual decline.

I agree on the Roy Jones case...however, they are bit different. Tyson could actually take a punch. We never see Jones get hit..and once he get hit..we noticed he had a super thin glass jaw.he has no chin whatsover... the speed goes..he gets hit..end of story.

disagree roy got hit b4, ate those punches...even got dropped n got up 2 beat this hispanic dude