Passing thought...are humans really self aware...

[Count23]

Or just partially aware of ourselves. what I mean is that yes we are aware of our own existence in ways that other life forms (arguably) are not capable of, however our brains, which is central to perception is not aware of it's own existence (we have to be taught about our brains). All of our organs function more or less like clockwork with us being oblivious to what's going on.

What justification do we have to say that we are truly self aware? The fact that we can recognize ourselves in a reflection?

 

[Winslow Wong]

Or just partially aware of ourselves. what I mean is that yes we are aware of our own existence in ways that other life forms (arguably) are not capable of, however our brains, which is central to perception is not aware of it's own existence (we have to be taught about our brains). All of our organs function more or less like clockwork with us being oblivious to what's going on.

What justification do we have to say that we are truly self aware? The fact that we can recognize ourselves in a reflection?

THe fact you asked the question is the answer to the question

 

[SheBetterHaveA50InchAss]

Lay off the weed homie.

 

[tical]

Sean69 expertise..now when your question gets into the evolutionary, biological, genetics and/or eventual applications of AI then, like arnold "i will be back"

For now here is the link for the

17 Criteria for Consciousness, used in the field of AI and the likes

 

[meatwad0628]

damn this is deep. i think the ancient Egyptian and greek philosophers have already answered this for you tho, open a book pimp

 

[mit_dropout]

I swear I have the answer. I've been pondering this for 20yrs and finally figured it out. I'm too exhausted to explain now. If I get ahold of some ritalin or something I'll break it down.

 

[tical]

damn this is deep. i think the ancient Egyptian and greek philosophers have already answered this for you tho, open a book pimp

Really..So you think such a profund question..which is still in debate as to its constituents among other things has already been answered bow-wrapped and all huh?Further your telling Count23 to open a book?

 

[tical]

I swear I have the answer. I've been pondering this for 20yrs and finally figured it out. I'm too exhausted to explain now. If I get ahold of some ritalin or something I'll break it down.

Why waste your words here...how about a paper...i guarantee you the Noble awaits if you have that answer.

 

[DJCandle]

Or just partially aware of ourselves. what I mean is that yes we are aware of our own existence in ways that other life forms (arguably) are not capable of, however our brains, which is central to perception is not aware of it's own existence (we have to be taught about our brains). All of our organs function more or less like clockwork with us being oblivious to what's going on.

What justification do we have to say that we are truly self aware? The fact that we can recognize ourselves in a reflection?

I'm a little in the grey by your definition of being "self aware."

Being self aware means you understand your feelings, and behaviors. A learned process through self analyzation.

Being aware means you understand your surroundings, situations through realization, perception, or knowledge. Also a learned process.

Which are you referring to?

 

[Count23]

THe fact you asked the question is the answer to the question

Not really.

Lay off the weed homie.

Sean69 expertise..now when your question gets into the evolutionary, biological, genetics and/or eventual applications of AI then, like arnold "i will be back"

For now here is the link for the

17 Criteria for Consciousness, used in the field of AI and the likes

Thanks for the link. But it still doesn't answer the question. How can we say that we truly (or completely) are self aware if the brain which we use to inteperet and infer consciousness (which essentially defines us as individuals) is not aware of itself?

damn this is deep. i think the ancient Egyptian and greek philosophers have already answered this for you tho, open a book pimp

Which books? I doubt i'll get any meaningful answer from the ancients, esp since the Egyptians used to pull the brain out through the nose and discard it before mummification.

I swear I have the answer. I've been pondering this for 20yrs and finally figured it out. I'm too exhausted to explain now. If I get ahold of some ritalin or something I'll break it down.

To sum it up, this is all I am saying;

1) you are self aware.

2) your brain is responsible for making you self aware (ergo the saying "you are your brain/mind").

3) your brain is unaware of it's own existence (you have to be taught about the brain from external sources).

4) then by what right can we truly say that we are completely self aware?

 

[Deacs]

Not with system in place of conformity and conditioning, you are lulled into thought patterns given by another and restrict yourselves by the guidelines set. You are usually fully aware of yourself once your learn about yourself in an honest lens.
Unless you test your limitations of you as a whole and understand the choices in which you make, you will never know anything but what is given you...

I'll be back, the Egyptian revolution is entertaining to watch

 

[Count23]

I still don't think you get it

 

[NinjaspiT]

Youre asking,are we truly self aware because the brain has no perception of itself,unless we are taught that the brain exists?

 

[Count23]

Youre asking,are we truly self aware because the brain has no perception of itself,unless we are taught that the brain exists?

I understand that we're "more" conscious than the other animals and all of that, but isn't it perplexing that the brain which is the seat of consciousness is not even aware of itself by default?

 

[sean69]

Or just partially aware of ourselves. what I mean is that yes we are aware of our own existence in ways that other life forms (arguably) are not capable of, however our brains, which is central to perception is not aware of it's own existence (we have to be taught about our brains). All of our organs function more or less like clockwork with us being oblivious to what's going on.

What justification do we have to say that we are truly self aware? The fact that we can recognize ourselves in a reflection?

Your question underlies the 2 general philosophical positions and consequently, 2 opposing paradigms of human cognition:

1) The Cartesian dualist notion that the brain (physical) is 'disembodied' from the mind/consciousness (non-physical).
2) Embodied Cognition: the brain is not a separate entity from the mind/consciousness which is 'out there', but rather consciousness and all aspects of human cognition are influenced by aspects of the body (including "all of our organs functions"). In a holistic sense.

I personally c/s (2) for several reasons which include empirical support from the neurosciences. Asking whether the brain is aware of itself becomes meaningless when you c/s (2). But if you c/s (1) then I can see why one can have issues with the notion of self-awareness.

 

[Count23]

Your question underlies the 2 general philosophical positions and consequently, 2 opposing paradigms of human cognition:

1) The Cartesian dualist notion that the brain (physical) is 'disembodied' from the mind/consciousness (non-physical).
2) Embodied Cognition: the brain is not a separate entity from the mind/consciousness which is 'out there', but rather consciousness and all aspects of human cognition are influenced by aspects of the body (including "all of our organs functions"). In a holistic sense.

I personally c/s (2) for several reasons which include empirical support from the neurosciences. Asking whether the brain is aware of itself becomes meaningless when you c/s (2). But if you c/s (1) then I can see why one can have issues with the notion of self-awareness.

I c/s #2 as well, but how does it invalidate the question? imo that's what makes it even more perplexing.

 

[tical]

Part of my confusion in what you ask seems to be a paradox of sorts:

"what I mean is that yes we are aware of our own existence in ways that other life forms (arguably) are not capable of, however our brains, which is central to perception is not aware of it's own existence (we have to be taught about our brains)."

If we look at this from something we assume to have no self-awareness, atleast not like humans..lets say a bacteria. From our "awareness" we know its messing out on being able to look in the mirror and recognizing its self. So...

1) Are you speculating/Suggesting that theirs alot more "self" to be aware of(higher plane of awareness i suppose) that we're messing out on?

and for the paradox

2) If we don't posses that "higher or other i guess self-awareness" how can we know about it? Just like a bacteria can't possible imagine our level of awareness!

 

[NinjaspiT]

I understand that we're "more" conscious than the other animals and all of that, but isn't it perplexing that the brain which is the seat of consciousness is not even aware of itself by default?

What purpose does it serve the brain in knowing that it exists?
How do you know that it doesn't know it doesn't exist?itt seems like you're seperating thoughts and the physical brain instead of looking at the brain,body and thoughts as one.if you wore shoes and an extraterrestrial saw you,would it think that the shoes were apart of your body or would it believe that something existed under the shoes?

 

[DeSiRe]

Not really.







Thanks for the link. But it still doesn't answer the question. How can we say that we truly (or completely) are self aware if the brain which we use to inteperet and infer consciousness (which essentially defines us as individuals) is not aware of itself?



Which books? I doubt i'll get any meaningful answer from the ancients, esp since the Egyptians used to pull the brain out through the nose and discard it before mummification.




To sum it up, this is all I am saying;

1) you are self aware.

2) your brain is responsible for making you self aware (ergo the saying "you are your brain/mind").

3) your brain is unaware of it's own existence (you have to be taught about the brain from external sources).

4) then by what right can we truly say that we are completely self aware?

can i add one?

u think therefore u are

ive pondered alot of this lately also...

i feel like we operate on such low frequencies...there is so much power given to us that is at our fingertips to unlock...thats what im trying to find out

 

[sean69]

I c/s #2 as well, but how does it invalidate the question? imo that's what makes it even more perplexing.

From your original post it appears that you're coming at the issue from (1) hence the part I highlighted in bold red. The very fact that you're asking whether the brain is aware of itself implies that an entity being aware/conscious of itself presupposes an act from 'outside' 'in'. No?

Like NinjaspiT said:

it seems like you're seperating thoughts and the physical brain instead of looking at the brain,body and thoughts as one

 

[Count23]

I don't believe in the ghost in the machine.

I am not seperating thoughts from the brain of any of that. I was just musing on how interesting it is that the human brain does all of these complex things, like thinking, feeling, regulating the other organs, etc.while the part(s) of the brain that is responsible for our consciousness (and ultimately our personality; what makes you "you"), is completely unaware this it is doing this; which ultimately leads to the illusion of mind/body seperation, immaterial souls, etc.

 

[Count23]

I don't believe in the ghost in the machine.

I am not seperating thoughts from the brain of any of that. I was just musing on how interesting it is that the human brain does all of these complex things, like thinking, feeling, regulating the other organs, etc.while the part(s) of the brain that is responsible for our consciousness (and ultimately our personality; what makes you "you"), is completely unaware this it is doing this; which ultimately leads to the illusion of mind/body seperation, immaterial souls, etc.

 

[NinjaspiT]

I don't believe in the ghost in the machine.

I am not seperating thoughts from the brain of any of that. I was just musing on how interesting it is that the human brain does all of these complex things, like thinking, feeling, regulating the other organs, etc.while the part(s) of the brain that is responsible for our consciousness (and ultimately our personality; what makes you "you"), is completely unaware this it is doing this; which ultimately leads to the illusion of mind/body seperation, immaterial souls, etc.

So basically youre saying that the brain has its own thought process?So do our other organs think for themselves too? To be aware, like you said, means that the entity is able to process thoughts individually.So do plants feel when they get sliced?I ort of know what youre saying, but youre sort of contradicting your theory.

This is why I dont get involved with European philosophy because they seperate everything and put a microscope to it. The only way to understand anything is to look at it as a whole.

 

[Count23]

So basically youre saying that the brain has its own thought process?So do our other organs think for themselves too? To be aware, like you said, means that the entity is able to process thoughts individually.So do plants feel when they get sliced?I ort of know what youre saying, but youre sort of contradicting your theory.

This is why I dont get involved with European philosophy because they seperate everything and put a microscope to it. The only way to understand anything is to look at it as a whole.

I wasn't stating any thing. It was a passing thought, and I thought that it was interesting enough to share.

We look at a person as a whole, more or less that is how we evolved to perceive ourselves. At the end of the day, perception starts and ends with the brain.


I can't believe how confusing this idea seems to be

 

[sean69]

I don't believe in the ghost in the machine.

I am not seperating thoughts from the brain of any of that. I was just musing on how interesting it is that the human brain does all of these complex things, like thinking, feeling, regulating the other organs, etc.while the part(s) of the brain that is responsible for our consciousness (and ultimately our personality; what makes you "you"), is completely unaware this it is doing this; which ultimately leads to the illusion of mind/body seperation, immaterial souls, etc.

Are you suggesting that there's a region of the brain that's responsible for consciousness? For example, like there's a region of the brain that's responsible for processing pain.
But dude, go back read your original post. Like NinjaspiT said, by bringing up the question of the brain's awareness of it's actions you irrevocably place the brain outside of said actions, hence separating mental processing from physical processes.

This is why I dont get involved with European philosophy because they seperate everything and put a microscope to it. The only way to understand anything is to look at it as a whole.

c/s. Just like you've explained, those dualistic and pluralistic Western philosophies inevitably lead to the problem of infinite regress when broken down. The brain is made up of neurons which are made up of cells which are made up of macromolecules which are made up of atoms which are made up of electrons which are made up of quarks which are made up of ... and so on for ever. The premise of Count23's argument essentially breaks down to: each of these separate components are unaware of their actions. At least this is my understanding.

We look at a person as a whole, more or less that is how we evolved to perceive ourselves. At the end of the day, perception starts and ends with the brain.

I agree with you here. That's the basis of Gestalt psychology. We make sense of things by reification. No one is arguing that. But you've completely contradicted your own argument here.

 

[Les W]

So basically youre saying that the brain has its own thought process?So do our other organs think for themselves too? To be aware, like you said, means that the entity is able to process thoughts individually.So do plants feel when they get sliced?I ort of know what youre saying, but youre sort of contradicting your theory.

This is why I dont get involved with European philosophy because they seperate everything and put a microscope to it. The only way to understand anything is to look at it as a whole.

Depending on your definition of 'think' I would say imo: yes ... this is what western science has largely ignored: consciousness as a force of nature

This ties into a lot of other fields like physics, ecology, chemistry as well as biology and so forth ...

Really too deep for this board and in fact too deep for human language but I believe there is only one or 'the all' any separation is just an illusion

I wasn't stating any thing. It was a passing thought, and I thought that it was interesting enough to share.

We look at a person as a whole, more or less that is how we evolved to perceive ourselves. At the end of the day, perception starts and ends with the brain.


I can't believe how confusing this idea seems to be

That is why the best thing to do is start with a definition human language is not a very good means of communicating abstract concepts and ideas

So in other words define "self aware" SIMPLY as you see it ...

 

[sean69]

Count23, question:
How would you know if another person is aware of their existence?

 

[Black A. Camus]

Or just partially aware of ourselves. what I mean is that yes we are aware of our own existence in ways that other life forms (arguably) are not capable of, however our brains, which is central to perception is not aware of it's own existence (we have to be taught about our brains). All of our organs function more or less like clockwork with us being oblivious to what's going on.

What justification do we have to say that we are truly self aware? The fact that we can recognize ourselves in a reflection?

I doubt that anyone reading this thread is self self aware. If you think you are self aware then tell me what your face looked like before your parent's birth. The common person is too deluded by their ego and their discursive thought to be self aware. Only enlightened people are self aware. All of this is a precept of Zen Buddhism.

 

[exiledking]

It's simple .



THE WHITE MAN




the end

 

[Acur]

niggas questioning the things only GOD can answer.

 

[sean69]

I doubt that anyone reading this thread is self self aware. If you think you are self aware then tell me what your face looked like before your parent's birth. The common person is too deluded by their ego and their discursive thought to be self aware. Only enlightened people are self aware. All of this is a precept of Zen Buddhism.

 

[Black A. Camus]

It's a Koan.

 

[Count23]

niggas questioning the things only GOD can answer.

aite gimme his cell # so i can ask him.

 

[tical]

I doubt that anyone reading this thread is self self aware. If you think you are self aware then tell me what your face looked like before your parent's birth. The common person is too deluded by their ego and their discursive thought to be self aware. Only enlightened people are self aware. All of this is a precept of Zen Buddhism.

 

[tical]

niggas questioning the things only GOD can answer.

aite gimme his cell # so i can ask him.

Acur...well is Acur, can you imagine if that was our response/actions towards questions that we thought were beyond us?....I hate, really hate closing the mind and creativity and possible growth.