lol im just fucking with you cranrab.
NBA's 50 greatest: most overrated/underated?
- Thread starter NICKLEBAGKILLA
- Start date
didn't see this one until just now.
if you want to discard those games from your memory, feel free to do so.
if you decided to keep them, share with me the value you see in remembering them. both individually and collectively.
i know it. i remember the discussions on your old forum, so i knew you were just playing devil's advocate and giving me a platform.
i'm just watching some shit on ebay, so i'm happy to play along right now.
back to the OP question,
my vote for overrated is kevin mchale.
but another contribution to this thread is the list of voters. it might help some of you understand how the list was composed:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (player),
Marv Albert (media),
Al Attles (team),
Red Auerbach (team),
Elgin Baylor (team),
Dave Bing (player),
Larry Bird (team),
Marty Blake (team),
Fran Blinebury (media),
Bill Bradley (player),
Hubie Brown (team),
Wilt Chamberlain (player),
Mitch Chortkoff (media),
Bob Cousy (player),
Billy Cunningham (team),
Chuck Daly (team),
David DuPree (media),
Wayne Embry (team),
Julius Erving (player),
Joe Gilmartin (media),
Sam Goldaper (media),
Alex Hannum (team),
Lester Harrison (team),
John Havlicek (player),
Chick Hearn (media),
Red Holzman (team),
Phil Jasner (media),
Earvin Johnson (player),
John Kerr (player),
Leonard Koppet (media),
Bob Lanier (player),
Frank Layden (team),
Leonard Lewin (media),
Jack McCallum (media),
Dick McGuire (team),
George Mikan (player),
Bob Pettit (player),
Harvey Pollack (team),
Jack Ramsay (team),
Willis Reed (team),
Oscar Robertson (player),
Bill Russell (player),
Bob Ryan (media),
Dolph Schayes (player),
Bill Sharman (player),
Gene Shue (team),
Isiah Thomas (team),
Wes Unseld (team),
Peter Vecsey (media),
Jerry West (team)
my vote for overrated is kevin mchale.
but another contribution to this thread is the list of voters. it might help some of you understand how the list was composed:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (player),
Marv Albert (media),
Al Attles (team),
Red Auerbach (team),
Elgin Baylor (team),
Dave Bing (player),
Larry Bird (team),
Marty Blake (team),
Fran Blinebury (media),
Bill Bradley (player),
Hubie Brown (team),
Wilt Chamberlain (player),
Mitch Chortkoff (media),
Bob Cousy (player),
Billy Cunningham (team),
Chuck Daly (team),
David DuPree (media),
Wayne Embry (team),
Julius Erving (player),
Joe Gilmartin (media),
Sam Goldaper (media),
Alex Hannum (team),
Lester Harrison (team),
John Havlicek (player),
Chick Hearn (media),
Red Holzman (team),
Phil Jasner (media),
Earvin Johnson (player),
John Kerr (player),
Leonard Koppet (media),
Bob Lanier (player),
Frank Layden (team),
Leonard Lewin (media),
Jack McCallum (media),
Dick McGuire (team),
George Mikan (player),
Bob Pettit (player),
Harvey Pollack (team),
Jack Ramsay (team),
Willis Reed (team),
Oscar Robertson (player),
Bill Russell (player),
Bob Ryan (media),
Dolph Schayes (player),
Bill Sharman (player),
Gene Shue (team),
Isiah Thomas (team),
Wes Unseld (team),
Peter Vecsey (media)
, Jerry West (team)
what about kobes 81?
And also what about Kobe when he took on mike and dropped 30 in 97 or 98 I believe
And also what about Kobe when he took on mike and dropped 30 in 97 or 98 I believe
what do u mean by my old forum? HV?
And now I see all the Boston and LA pride
So cranrab what is the one way Kobe can win a ring without shaq?....and bonus, does he need coach Jackson to do so?
And now I see all the Boston and LA pride
So cranrab what is the one way Kobe can win a ring without shaq?....and bonus, does he need coach Jackson to do so?
You are fucking ridiculous...
The Lakers are Pau Gasol's team without question, even though not one person in the Lakers locker room, coaching staff, or arena would make that statement.
In your world, that equals "without question."
I question your sanity...
what about it? 46 FGAs (more than a fourth of them from 3), 20 FTAs. 21 pts from behind the arc and 18 from the charity stripe? incredible binge scoring and prolific shooting. congratulations, i guess.
it was almost as impressive as his 45 FGAs and 58 pts 3 weeks before.
or his 47 FGAs and 41 pts in 2002.
are you referring to tobe's 55 pt game against the wizards in 2003? where 27 of them came from behind the arc over the top of the D?
tell you what. if tobe is still playing at age 39, going 30+ minutes, dropping 20+ pts on 50% shooting, ask me that question again.
if you're asking for a performance where tobe was impressive in a victory, it was against the phoenix suns in january of 2003.
question all you want.You are fucking ridiculous...
pau gasol leads the memphis grizzlies under coach fratello to better regular season records and into the playoffs (out of the SW DIVISION) when tobe couldn't accomplish the same for the fakers (in the PUSSIFIC DIVISION) but i'm ridiculous?
GTFOH!
the fakers WITH pau gasol are 71-19 (.789), a level of regular season success they haven't enjoyed since 1999-2000, but i'm insane?
GTFOH!
the best tobe and the fakers could pull off in 3+ seasons before pau gasol arrived was .652, but now they're playing .789 ball and it's NOT due to the addition of pau gasol?
wipe your mouth, you deluded child.
And how many championships did MJ win without Pippen????? Truth be told they needed each other. As great as MJ was, he might have ended up being another Barkley or Patrick, All Time greats with no Rings. To say Pippen was overrated is just plain dumb. He wasn't the best at one thing but the way he complimented MJ was not easy on so many levels, but he still got it done and with 6 rings. As Stockton and Malone how hard it is for a tandem to achieve ultimate success, especially 6 times!!!!!
what about it? 46 FGAs (more than a fourth of them from 3), 20 FTAs. 21 pts from behind the arc and 18 from the charity stripe? incredible binge scoring and prolific shooting. congratulations, i guess.
it was almost as impressive as his 45 FGAs and 58 pts 3 weeks before.
or his 47 FGAs and 41 pts in 2002.
are you referring to tobe's 55 pt game against the wizards in 2003? where 27 of them came from behind the arc over the top of the D?
tell you what. if tobe is still playing at age 39, going 30+ minutes, dropping 20+ pts on 50% shooting, ask me that question again.
if you're asking for a performance where tobe was impressive in a victory, it was against the phoenix suns in january of 2003.
i was talking about this game
[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/BC5sW1Xnj3g&hl=en&fs=1[/FLASH]
the post @ 4:15
and this is a 19 year old kobe.
ah, i see.
well, gushing praise of dick stockton aside, that video is a perfect example. tobe came in off the bench, fired up more shots than any starter, and the fakers got blown out by 21. what a surprise. i wonder why the fakers never won a single quarter of that game?
comforting to know that more than a decade later, not much has changed. i mean, michael jordan played more minutes but took fewer shots, proved his efficiency in scoring more points, and got the W in a 21 point blowout.
excellent juxtaposition and video illustration.
He also had to play the shooting guard on the other team because Magic was playing the small forward and Byron Scott covered the point. Worthy had to play the scorers like Andrew Toney and Dennis Johnson
It would have been difficult from 80 to 89 because there was no hard foul rule and Kobe would just get hammered like Mike did.
Scottie Pippen, 
come on
Pip was a big-game player who played alongside the greatest ever MJ (not Kobe). Pip could shoot, drive, had tenacious defense, and could flat-out score. He wasn't Robin to MJ's Batman they needed each other to compliment the other.
Hakeem the Dream: Overrated
Watch ESPN Classic, you will change your mind
come onPip was a big-game player who played alongside the greatest ever MJ (not Kobe). Pip could shoot, drive, had tenacious defense, and could flat-out score. He wasn't Robin to MJ's Batman they needed each other to compliment the other.
Hakeem the Dream: Overrated
Watch ESPN Classic, you will change your mind
True store - Sans Duck-Tales...
I'm 30+ and a retired knick fan. That doode abused use and the Triange does NOT work without Pip.
Shaq is perhaps my choice but its difficult to sell. My .02 cents about the Shaqtus is that being 300+ lbs and 7 feet isnt talent. He can't hit a jumper and is useless facing up to a rim. No free-throw game at all, but keeping real he has done it up using what was at his disposal. Borderline charging cats in the block and dunking can be done by anyone with his size. Hakeem was the nastiest at the position I saw (then young Pat).
Pip is sick, tho
Yezzir Co-Sign.
It is easy to hate on Pippen, since most people were in awed of Jordan. So, it was easy to rip Pippen. But Pippen is not overrated. There is no way that the Bulls win 6 Championships without Pippen.
Underrated: Adrian Dantley. He never got the props he deserved, and had an interesting game. A 6'5 post up forward. He couldn't guard anyone (but neither could Magic, Bird, or Mullin), but he could score in bunches.
Overrated: James Worthy. He would not be the same player without Magic; you put any other so-so small forward on those Laker teams, and they would have been just as successful.
Not really. Although his scoring diminished he still made a couple more All-Defensive teams, and was significant in helping lead Portland to a 59-win season and a playoff run into the Western Conferance Finals (losing in 7 games to L.A.).
Are you high.
fuck outta here.
The 2 prior years before coming to the Lakers Gasol was in the lottery with the grizz,prior to joining the Lakers Gasol had NEVER EVEN WON A PLAYOFF GAME.
Lakers are clearly Kobe's team there's no question about that Gasol is a 2nd option thats all. He can't carry a team only year Kobe missed the playoffs was because he missed a month of the season in 04-05 and Rudy T got back on the bottle.
Kobe averaged 27 6 and 6 outisde of the Triangle that season.only until Frank Hamblen became coach did the team struggle like hell with his sorry coaching ass.
The list is a joke without Dominique Wilkins...period
um, what did the portland trailblazers do the season before scottie pippen arrived again?
right.
EDIT: i'll give you the assist.
BEFORE scottie pippen, portland trailblazers win the pussific division and lose in the western conference finals.
AFTER scottie pippen, portland trailblazers finish 2nd in the pussific division and lose in the western conference finals.
huge impact, right?
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BGOL basketball fans always got jokes.
2004-05 pau gasol takes the memphis grizzlies to a better record and the post-season. tobe has the fakers in the pussific division cellar and watching the playoffs.
2005-06 pau gasol takes the memphis grizzlies to a better record and the post-season. tobe and pau gasol both get ousted in the 1st round.
and remember, tobe had HOF coach jackson. pau gasol had over-achieving midget coach fratello. and yes, it does make a huge difference. because in almost 2 decades of head coaching at the professional level, coach fratello only made it to the 2nd round twice. TWICE. and never advanced.
so exactly what 2 years were the memphis grizzlies WITH pau gasol in the lottery? you DO remember that pau gasol became a faker in 2007-08, right?
y'all kill me with this comedy. keep that shit coming.
the official statement is that coach tomjanovich retired due to health reasons. right. how many people you know can unilaterally opt out of the contract but the employer still pays them $4M for quitting? you DO know that coach tomjanovich officially stayed on fakers payroll afterwards, in spite of those mysterious "health reasons", right?
wrong again. i hope you're not a fakers fan talking out your neck like this.
remember that coach tomjanovich was only around for the 1st 43 games of the season. tobe was having career WORST productivity under coach tomjanovich, BUT THE FAKERS WERE WINNING. tobe's bitch-made ego couldn't have that hit to his public image. check it yourself. especially FG%, scoring, TOs.
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that's some funny shit.
tobe couldn't touch elgin baylor (who got his without 3 pt lines) or even george gervin (how many times shooting over 50%?) as a scorer.
but i thought we were talking about top 50 players, which presumably encompasses much more than prolific shooting and binge scoring.
Man please. When did Elgin Baylor score 81 points? When could Elgin Baylor attack the rim as well as shoot the lights of any opposing team? He couldn't. He was nowhere near the athlete Kobe is. Plus Kobe is playing against better athletes. You can't compare that era against the current one. Stuff is way more advanced. It's hard for you to say Elgin baylor was better when you didn't see him play. Unless you are like 60, Kobe IS the best scorer you have ever seen. I can't stand him either but give him his props.
is kareem abdul jabbar too young to say that?
tobe is far from the best scorer i've seen. george gervin and bernard king are two MONUMENTALLY SUPERIOR scorers just off the top of my head.
and BTW, i saw wilt chamberlain play LIVE.
english philosopher edmund burke once wrote in the 1700s: "those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."
that's the MAJOR problem in this thread. too many sheep and lemmings in here don't have an accurate picture of basketball history. there very memories are being skewed, shaped, and distorted by know nothings in the media.
EXAMPLE:
bill walton joined the portland trailblazers in the mid-1970s. unlike david robinson or larry bird, bill walton could not turn a losing franchise into a winning franchise. his rookie year, bill walton's trailblazers had a LOSING record and NO playoffs.
the 2nd season was more of the same. LOSING record and NO playoffs. fragile bill, in spite of his fantastic college career, just wasn't what people thought he was.
then the ABA folded, and portland received a blessing. maurice lucas, who was actually drafed by the chicago bulls, ended up on the trailblazers. what happened? the portland trailblazers became a WINNING franchise that SAME season and won the NBA championship.
but look what has resulted. IDIOTS claim that it was bill walton. they have altered history to marginalize maurice lucas, when it's OBVIOUS that he was the key. they say it was bill walton's team.
same thing now. tobe had the fakers mired in mediocrity. along comes pau gasol and they catapult into the NBA finals. but it's tobe's team, right?
that's the MAJOR problem in this thread. too many sheep and lemmings in here don't have an accurate picture of basketball history. there very memories are being skewed, shaped, and distorted by know nothings in the media.
EXAMPLE:
bill walton joined the portland trailblazers in the mid-1970s. unlike david robinson or larry bird, bill walton could not turn a losing franchise into a winning franchise. his rookie year, bill walton's trailblazers had a LOSING record and NO playoffs.
the 2nd season was more of the same. LOSING record and NO playoffs. fragile bill, in spite of his fantastic college career, just wasn't what people thought he was.
then the ABA folded, and portland received a blessing. maurice lucas, who was actually drafed by the chicago bulls, ended up on the trailblazers. what happened? the portland trailblazers became a WINNING franchise that SAME season and won the NBA championship.
but look what has resulted. IDIOTS claim that it was bill walton. they have altered history to marginalize maurice lucas, when it's OBVIOUS that he was the key. they say it was bill walton's team.
same thing now. tobe had the fakers mired in mediocrity. along comes pau gasol and they catapult into the NBA finals. but it's tobe's team, right?
You saw Wilt play against bums & probably when he was hella old. But could Wilt shoot the long ball? No. He scored all his points near the basket. Kobe scores all over. Offensively, Kobe can do anything. Bernard King & George Gervin never scored 81 points & they were on sorry ass teams & had plenty of opportunities. You are just a hater & will come up with any excuse you want to to discredit him. Who in the NBA now is a better scorer than Kobe? Name just one please. I'll wait to here this. Fuck the guys in the past, how about now?
english philosopher edmund burke once wrote in the 1700s: "those who don't know history are destined to repeat it."
that's the MAJOR problem in this thread. too many sheep and lemmings in here don't have an accurate picture of basketball history. there very memories are being skewed, shaped, and distorted by know nothings in the media.
EXAMPLE:
bill walton joined the portland trailblazers in the mid-1970s. unlike david robinson or larry bird, bill walton could not turn a losing franchise into a winning franchise. his rookie year, bill walton's trailblazers had a LOSING record and NO playoffs.
the 2nd season was more of the same. LOSING record and NO playoffs. fragile bill, in spite of his fantastic college career, just wasn't what people thought he was.
then the ABA folded, and portland received a blessing. maurice lucas, who was actually drafed by the chicago bulls, ended up on the trailblazers. what happened? the portland trailblazers became a WINNING franchise that SAME season and won the NBA championship.
but look what has resulted. IDIOTS claim that it was bill walton. they have altered history to marginalize maurice lucas, when it's OBVIOUS that he was the key. they say it was bill walton's team.
same thing now. tobe had the fakers mired in mediocrity. along comes pau gasol and they catapult into the NBA finals. but it's tobe's team, right?
Where the fuck was Pau Gasol in the Finals? You are a B Side negro. You are the type of negro that turns off the hit single to play an album cut. I'm all for an underdog but how the fuck can you sit here & say it's because Pau Gasol that the Lakers made the Finals? Yes, he was an integral part but Kobe is the engine of the Lakers. How can you ignore facts? Pau average 17 pts, 9 rebs, 4 asst on 53% shooting (nice stats) in the playoffs but Kobe averaged: 30 pts, 5.7 rebs, 5.6 asst, 1.7 stl on 48% shooting. Again, how can you type the bullshit above me with a straight face?
WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in china?
so it's your contention that inside players are excluded from being considered scorers? guess we'd have to put an asterisk next to shaquille o'neal's name the year he lead the league. kareem abdul jabbar too. bob motherfucking mcadoo?
there's something else about bernard king and george gervin you forgot to mention. as far as basketball is concerned, they had class, integrity and understood the game. 3 qualities tobe has never had.
as far as your request: dwyane wade. he's LONG been a more efficient scorer than tobe.
your "hater" shit is tired and teen like. talk liike a man.
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MMAAAANNNN F U....PIPPEN resume...F'in way better
6 rings....2 gold medals....shall i continue
i don't have any interesting names to call you, but that shit you just wrote is asinine.
the fakers were mediocre for 3+ seasons with tobe and couldn't sniff the 2nd round. then they get pau gasol and make the finals and you're on some tobe bandwagon shit. think about that shit. oh wait, i know. tobe had it in him the whole time, but was just waiting 4 years to do it. right.
engine, chucking dynamo, whatever label you wanna use, go on ahead. but the fact is the fakers with tobe WEREN'T DOING SHIT. the golden state warriors and the los angeles clippers both advanced farther than the los angeles lakers with that wonderful engine.
BGOL got some feeble basketball minds.
WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in china?
so it's your contention that inside players are excluded from being considered scorers? guess we'd have to put an asterisk next to shaquille o'neal's name the year he lead the league. kareem abdul jabbar too. bob motherfucking mcadoo?
there's something else about bernard king and george gervin you forgot to mention. as far as basketball is concerned, they had class, integrity and understood the game. 3 qualities tobe has never had.
as far as your request: dwyane wade. he's LONG been a more efficient scorer than tobe.
your "hater" shit is tired and teen like. talk liike a man.
When have any of those big men other than Wilt scored 81 points? Wilt's shots were over a scrawny white guy weighing 50 lbs. less than him & they still lost. Kobe had 81 & lit it up from all over the court in a win. Kobe would have scored 200 against the guys Wilt played against.
So are you saying Kobe's 81 was not incredible? Can you even say one good thing about Kobe? Damn man, the guy can play the game whether it is the way you like it or not. I don't care for his 5-10 off-balance fade aways instead of drives to the hoop & his ruining of the triangle just to take an ill advised jumper but he is so talented, he gets away with it.
So qualities such as humility count for something when it comes to scoring? And calling Kobe "Tobe" sound real mature for a "grown ass man". So take some of your own advice junior.
Wade is the better all around player for sure in my eyes. But Kobe is a better scorer. Wade is just learning how to shoot 3's. And he still isn't that good at it. Kobe is a jumpshooter that can knock it down from anywhere.
So let me guess, Scottie Pippen won the titles in Chicago too, huh? We all know Shaq was the leader of the Laker teams that won in the past. No question. But those Laker teams that went nowhere had very limited talent. I'm far from a Laker fan (I hate these fairweather ass fans) & I root for the Knicks. He didn't have a player that could compliment him. Smush Parker was his starting point guard one year. Before Smush, he had Chucky Atkins. He played with Kwame Brown for pete's sake. Mitch Kupchak was a freaking dumb ass when it came to his roster moves (Caron Butler for Kwame Brown = the worst trade ever). Gasol is the low post presence on offense that Kobe needs to get over the top. Gasol is a liability on defense sometimes but definitely makes Kobe's job easier. I never said Kobe was the best player or even a winner. I said he was the best scorer I have seen. No one player can win it by himself. Even Jordan had to learn that. Do you remember his first 6 years in the league? He was Kobe with better shot selection & better defense. But he was a totally selfish player. But once he learned how to play team ball as Kobe is FINALLY doing, they have a good chance (although I still think they will lose). Hell I hope they lose. I hate the Kobe & the Lakers. But they man can play his ass off whether I like him or not.
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