Not to mention the 10th best scorer (for average) in history and possessor of that rare 25-5-5 (rounded off) career line, only matched by Jordan, West, Robertson and LeBron.
NBA's 50 greatest: most overrated/underated?
- Thread starter NICKLEBAGKILLA
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Not to mention the 10th best scorer (for average) in history and possessor of that rare 25-5-5 (rounded off) career line, only matched by Jordan, West, Robertson and LeBron.
another note on the scottie pippen thing:
michael jordan and coach jackson without scottie pippen (35 games, 1997-98): 24-11 (.686) record, good enough for 5th best record in the league that season.
scottie pippen and coach jackson without michael jordan (63 games, 1994-95): 34-29 (.540) record, good enough for 11th best record in the league that season.
why did i select those 2 seasons? because there was overlap of starting personnel in toni kukoc and ron harper both years.
michael jordan and coach jackson without scottie pippen (35 games, 1997-98): 24-11 (.686) record, good enough for 5th best record in the league that season.
scottie pippen and coach jackson without michael jordan (63 games, 1994-95): 34-29 (.540) record, good enough for 11th best record in the league that season.
why did i select those 2 seasons? because there was overlap of starting personnel in toni kukoc and ron harper both years.
number of rings in and of itself is inconsequential, in light of steve kerr and robert horry.
and so now tobe has as many MVPs as dirk nowitzki. and half as many as steve nash.
your point?
that's some funny shit.
tobe couldn't touch elgin baylor (who got his without 3 pt lines) or even george gervin (how many times shooting over 50%?) as a scorer.
but i thought we were talking about top 50 players, which presumably encompasses much more than prolific shooting and binge scoring.
not to mention kobe's post game skills also.
7 All-Defensive teams?
true. yet you suggested that both rings and mvps are acceptable measures or criteria for deserving a place among the top 50 players.
i would submit to you that those accomplishments (especially the championship rings) are not adequate measures of consideration.
please mention the post skills. enumerate the post skills.
coach jackson (tobe's only head coach as a starter) himself has stated that tobe's defensive skills are more myth than reality and largely imagined by the public. coach jackson has accurately related that tobe is capable of playing intense defense in spots, but chooses not to.
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ok, now i would ask you this.
would the remaining players from the 50 man roster of greatest players vote Kobe into their same level as accomplishments? yes or no?
and kobe avg 35ppg in 05-06
and 28ppg in 00-01 while shaq was 28ppg that same season. shaq never avg 35ppg.
of course you'd have to ask them. but i can tell you that many of the older players would not and do not. especially those that are assistant coaches at the moment.
and scoring averages are in and of themselves important how?
only 2 men in modern basketball have been able to lead the league in scoring AND win a championship in the same season. michael jordan and shaquille o'neal. both under coach jackson. coincidence?
did u see the 2000 and 2002 finals?
now when he plays in the triangle he uses his shooting more than his post play.
Of course come on Kobe is a top 10 alltime great player. thats a ridiculous question.
young man, you are confused. tobe's post skills in 2000 and 2002 were NON-existant. tobe is a better post player today than he was then, and today he is still not noteworthy in the post.
in the triple post, tobe occupies the SF slot much of the time, and from that spot, it is more advantageous for him to hoist bricks from distance.
but since you brought up 2000 and 2002 specifically, please provide specific examples that impressed you. i'd be happy to pull them up and discuss them with you.
And how the fuck the thread starter gonna say Scottie Pippen is the most overrated are you fucking crazy come on he's the greatest perimeter defender of ALLTIME, period.
I hated his punkass but he locked guys straight the fuck up in the 91 Finals MJ was getting murdered by Magic and they switched Pippen on him and changed the whole series.
Pippen is undervalued if anything.
I hated his punkass but he locked guys straight the fuck up in the 91 Finals MJ was getting murdered by Magic and they switched Pippen on him and changed the whole series.
Pippen is undervalued if anything.
that's a common misperception. i give tobe all the credit that he is due. the problem is that people who don't like basketball (but seem to be infatuated with the man) give tobe credit for skills he doesn't actually possess.
for example, tobe has good athleticism, and to this day still uses his usually reliable crutch shot: turnaround jumper along the baseline. as he has gotten older and matured physically, he has actually increased the range from 17' to 23' on that shot.
other than tobe's incredible desire to chuck, there isn't much else that's noteworthy about his game.
i have to look up my tapes.
but i will get back to you on this list.
and do you think kobe is more important to the lakers than pau gasol is?
that's a common misperception. i give tobe all the credit that he is due. the problem is that people who don't like basketball (but seem to be infatuated with the man) give tobe credit for skills he doesn't actually possess.
for example, tobe has good athleticism, and to this day still uses his usually reliable crutch shot: turnaround jumper along the baseline. as he has gotten older and matured physically, he has actually increased the range from 17' to 23' on that shot.
other than tobe's incredible desire to chuck, there isn't much else that's noteworthy about his game.
so we can throw away all his 50 and 60 point games?
And Jordan's?
and Maravich's?
Same thing that happened to my Pacers in the ECF, '98 I believe.
When Coach Jackson put Scottie Pippen on Mark Jackson, it was a wrap.
We'd won the series if not for that move. The Bulls would've been toast.
I'm still heated about that adjustment.
i wanted to return to this to again ask you why this individual milestone was important enough for you to single out.
tobe averaged 35.4 ppg in 2005-06. the fakers finished 6th in the west, behind the memphis grizzlies. the fakers finished 3rd in the pacific division, behind the los angeles clippers. the fakers were eliminated by the phoenix suns in the 1st round of the playoffs.
yes, tobe averaged 35.4 ppg during the regular season and 27.9 ppg in the playoffs.
adrian dantley averaged 30+ ppg 4 consecutive seasons. how'd that work out for him? but wait. at least he got out of the 1st round 1 of those seasons.
allen iverson averaged 30+ ppg 4 different seasons. how'd that work out for him? but wait. at least he got out of the 1st round 1 of those seasons.
kobe beat him in the '01 finals.
and kobe has a 3peat pancake stack.
now i do remember kobe hitting a game winning shot in game 4 to lead the lakers 3-1 then they folded.
memphis had a allstar in pau gasol.
Pipen was that dude dont forget when Jordan retired he led the Bulls to game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals which thr refs decided the game in the final moments
I think Oscar Roberson is the most underrated player
He averaged a triple double for the season cant shit top that besides actually winning the Finals
I think Oscar Roberson is the most underrated player
He averaged a triple double for the season cant shit top that besides actually winning the Finals
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of course not. the fakers are pau gasol's team without question. just look at the outstanding win loss record since pau gasol's arrival. the fakers never sniffed such success in the first 3.5 seasons of the tobe era.
and it's not a fluke.
take a look at that 2005-06 season again.
pau gasol's memphis grizzlies finished 4th in the western conference ahead of the fakers.
take a look at the 2004-05 season again.
pau gasol's memphis grizzlies finished 8th in the western conference ahead of the fakers.
so why didn't pau get the mvp over kobe?
in 04-05 kobe had no coach jackson with 3 new players.
coach jackson + kobe = 3 peat stack
coach jackson + pau gasol = NBA finals.
remember he was the 2006 FIBA MVP.
if you're gonna put it on 1 dude, at least be accurate about it.
shaquille o'neal averaged 30.4 ppg and 15.4 rebounds in the 2000-01 playoffs.
as if that were not bad enough, shaquille o'neal averaged 33 ppg and 15.8 rebounds and 3.4 blocks per game in the finals against the 76ers. so who beat allen iverson in the '01 finals again?
tobe didn't need coach jackson to make the playoffs. under coach tomjanovich, the fakers were 24-19. and some of those new players had just gone to the playoffs the season prior.
2004-05 was a telling year for tobe. 2004-05 revealed that tobe was too stupid to grasp basketball concepts outside of the triple post. coach tomjanovich designed an O specifically for tobe, but tobe was too dumb to get it. that's why tobe demanded coach tomjanovich's ouster.
the new O was too befuddlng to the dunce, and he was getting frustrated because it was revealing his lack of skills outside the triple post. check the career lows and embarassing career highs tobe had that season prior to coach hamblen taking over.
the fakers had a better record with coach tomjanovich after 43 games than they did with coach jackson the following season after 43 games. because coach tomjanovich had the fakers playing TEAM basketball.
if you prefer to cling to that, OK.
but i'd suggest shaquille o'neal + coach jackson = 3 consecutive championships.
after all, shaquille o'neal took a 6th year EXPANSION FRANCHISE (orlando magic) with a LOSING head coach to the NBA finals. shaquille o'neal took another EXPANSION FRANCHISE (miami heat) to their first NBA championship.
SVT, you do understand how remarkable that is considering pau gasol only had 26 regular season games to learn a new system and build chemistry with new teammates, right?
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