Nationalized Health Care Vs. U.S. Everybody For Themselves

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Thanks Que.

Often ignored for obvious reasons, but I think American health care or lack there of should be one of the most important issues discussed in the coming Presidential Debates, outside of Iraq and gas prices.

The for profit 100% free market health care system that we have today clearly, doesn't work. If health cost were being paid by the government via collected taxes, then people would definitely be encouraged more to eat healthier and the FDA would REALLY be funded enough to analyze fully the health effects of all foods and drugs put into the public market place.

With a less stressed and healthier population I think America in general would be a happier place to be. Everyone deserves health care. Am I wrong?
 
O.P., you raise some interesting questions. I've been fortunate enough to have health insurance for myself and my family -- but its expensive. My firm pays the bill but, hell, I'm the firm. So, how much national health will cost and who will pay is a BIG issue for me.

To answer your question, yeah I would certainly like to see everyone with some form of healthcare. I would also like to see an emphasis away from some of the things that are destructive to our general health, i.e., fuck the tobacco industry -- tobacco products should be taxed to death. Next, and I look forward regularly to a grey goose (where is Greed?) but the truth of the matter is, vices which negatively impact the healthcare system like tobacco and alcohol should not be allowed to place an enormous burden on those who have to pay for national healthcare. Tax them with an eye towards their contribution to chronic health problems.

Without continuously rambling: I'm in favor of national healthcare; but I'm against products and continuous stupid conduct on the part of citizens (yeah, I said citizens -- I don't believe we should provide healthcare for non-citizens) that unnecessarily raise the cost of providing healthcare.

BTW, I haven't explored the various proposals enough, however, to have an opinion on any one of them. There was a thread on this board that discussed some proposals. I'll bump it if I can find it.

QueEx
 
Healthcare shouldn't be linked to employment

Healthcare shouldn't be linked to employment

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | October 19, 2008

THE CHOICE you'll have," said Barack Obama during last week's debate, as he told voters what to expect if John McCain's health-insurance proposal becomes law, "is having your employer no longer provide you healthcare.

"Don't take my word for it," he added. "The US Chamber of Commerce, which generally doesn't support a lot of Democrats, said that this plan could lead to the unraveling of the employer-based healthcare system."

If only.

An end to employer-based health insurance is exactly what the American healthcare market needs. Far from being a calamity, it would represent a giant step toward ending the current system's worst distortions: skyrocketing premiums, lack of insurance portability, widespread ignorance of medical prices, and overconsumption of health services.

With more than 90 percent of private healthcare plans in the United States obtained through employers, it might seem unnatural to get health insurance any other way. But what's unnatural is the link between healthcare and employment. After all, we don't rely on employers for auto, homeowners, or life insurance. Those policies we buy in an open market, where numerous insurers and agents compete for our business. Health insurance is different only because of an idiosyncrasy in the tax code dating back 60 years - a good example, to quote Milton Friedman, of how one bad government policy leads to another.

During World War II, federal wage controls barred employers from raising their workers' salaries, but said nothing about fringe benefits. So firms competing for employees at government-restricted wages began offering medical insurance to sweeten employment offers. Even sweeter was that employers could deduct those benefits as business expenses, yet employees didn't have to report them as taxable income. For a while the IRS resisted that interpretation, but Congress eventually enshrined the tax-exempt status of employer-based medical insurance in law.

Result: a radical shift in the way Americans paid for medical care. With health benefits tax-free if they were employer-supplied, tens of millions of Americans were soon signing up for medical insurance through work. As tax rates rose, so did the incentive to keep expanding health benefits. No longer was medical insurance reserved for major expenditures like surgery or hospitalization. Americans who would never think of using auto insurance to cover tune-ups and oil changes grew accustomed to having their medical insurer pay for yearly physicals, prescriptions, and other routine expenses.

We thus ended up with a healthcare system in which the vast majority of bills are covered by a third party. With someone else picking up the tab, Americans got used to consuming medical care without regard to price or value. After all, if it was covered by insurance, why not go to the emergency room for a simple sore throat? Why not get the name-brand drug instead of a generic?

Unconstrained by consumer cost-consciousness, healthcare spending has soared, even as overall inflation has remained fairly low. Nevertheless, Americans know almost nothing about the costs of their medical care. (Quick quiz: What does your local hospital charge for an MRI scan? To deliver a baby? To set a broken arm?) When patients think someone else is paying most of their healthcare costs, they feel little pressure to learn what those costs actually are - and providers feel little pressure to compete on price. So prices keep rising, which makes insurance more expensive, which makes Americans ever-more worried about losing their insurance - and ever-more dependent on the benefits provided by their employer.

De-linking medical insurance from employment is the key to reforming healthcare in the United States. McCain proposes to accomplish that by taking the tax deduction away from employers and giving it to employees. With a $5,000 refundable healthcare tax credit, Americans would have a strong inducement to buy their own, more affordable, insurance, rather than relying on their employer's plan. As millions of empowered consumers began focusing on price, price competition would flourish. And as employers' healthcare costs declined, most of the savings would return to employees as higher wages.

For 60-plus years, a misguided tax preference for employer-sponsored health insurance has distorted America's healthcare market. The price of that distortion has been paid in higher costs, fewer choices, and mounting anxiety. The solution is to restore market forces by fixing the tax code, and liberating Americans from an employer-based system that has made everything worse.

Jeff Jacoby can be reached at jacoby@globe.com.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e.../healthcare_shouldnt_be_linked_to_employment/
 
its sad we live in a country where people are an illness or accident away from bankruptcy

although i hate to admitt...i feel some things are expensive on purpose....college education is expensive to be unobtainable to some...same with health care

is universal healthcare the solution to get everyone healthy?...maybe

BUT

pharmaceutical companies are making a 500% profit off drugs....

im sure the lobbyist have been working hard to fight the deregulation of the industry...but i think the time has come to take a look at some of these things in the health industry....could there be a great deal of price gauging and by solving that healthcare would be affordable for everyone...with or without a plan

interested to get others thoughts on this
 
Universal healthcare the solution to get everyone healthy? :confused:

Eating well and exercise are pretty much the foundation of good health. The large majority of Americans do not exercise nor eat healthy. That is of their own doing.

Discounts for healthy lifestyles would be part of the solution for getting health care coverage out there to the masses. People need to learn to live healthy and stop relying on pills.
 
Nationalized health care has some drawbacks too though. In Canada any doctor that's worth a damn moves to the US where they can make more than triple what they do at home. There's also no real incentive to develop new procedures, or even be particularly good at what you do because everyone gets paid the same. Waiting lists for specialists, and special equipment are unbelievable. I've known cancer patients who've had to wait months and travel for days just to get an MRI done. Worst of all, when you take the extra taxes and mandatory premiums into account nationalized health insurance costs almost as much as private.

That's not to say it's all bad. If you break your arm it's good to know that you can be seen at any hospital and not have to worry about the cost. However, if you have a serious illness or need any kind of surgery then private is the way to go. Even Canadian Prime Minster Jean Cretien went to the Mayo Clinic when he had to get a facial cyst dealt with.
 
Almost Everyone Would Do Better Under the McCain Health Plan

Almost Everyone Would Do Better Under the McCain Health Plan
His tax credit is larger than the current tax subsidy for insurance.
By ROBERT CARROLL
OCTOBER 27, 2008

The McCain health-care insurance tax credit may well be one of the most misunderstood proposals of this presidential election. Barack Obama has been ruthless in his attacks. But the tax credit is highly progressive and will provide a powerful incentive for people to purchase health insurance. These features under normal circumstances should endear Democrats to the proposal.

There has been a lot of rhetoric and misstatements, but what exactly does Sen. McCain have in mind? He would replace the current income tax exclusion for employer-sponsored health insurance with a refundable tax credit -- $5,000 for those who purchase family coverage and $2,500 for individual coverage. Mr. McCain would also reform insurance markets to stem the growth in health insurance premiums.

What many may not realize is that the federal government already "spends" roughly $300 billion to $400 billion through the tax code to encourage people to pay for their health care through employer-sponsored health insurance. This subsidy takes the form of the exclusion for employer-sponsored health insurance from both income and payroll taxes.

Still, some 45 million Americans are uninsured; and the growth in health-care spending continues to outpace the growth in incomes and the economy, which portends further increases in the number of uninsured. The employer-based system itself is eroding. Voters should be wondering whether there is a better approach than this subsidy.

Consider the current exclusion. Its value rises with how much someone spends on health care, and how much of this spending is funneled through employer-sponsored health-care coverage. This creates an incentive for people to purchase policies with low deductibles, or which cover routine spending. These policies look a lot less like insurance and more like prefunded spending accounts purchased through employers and managed by insurance companies. Consider homeowners and auto insurance policies. Do these cover routine spending on cleaning the gutters or tuning up a car?

The subsidy encourages people to buy bigger policies that cover more, and leads to greater health-care spending. Moreover, lower deductibles and coverage of routine spending dulls consumers' sensitivity to price. Reducing the tax bias should result in insurance that is more focused on catastrophic coverage and less on routine spending.

By replacing the income tax exclusion with a fixed, refundable credit, the McCain proposal reduces the tax bias for large insurance policies. Because the credit is for a fixed amount, regardless of how much you spend on health care, it helps break the link between the existing tax subsidy and how much is spent on health care. This improves incentives in the health-care market by reducing the bias that has contributed to such a high level of health-care spending.

Moreover, the credit provides a powerful incentive for people to purchase insurance. The two tax provisions -- the new credit and the repeal of the income tax exclusion -- on net provide a substantial tax cut of $1.4 trillion over 10 years. Not only do most Americans receive a tax cut under the McCain proposal, but the tax cut is directed toward low and moderate income taxpayers.

Consider the family of four shown in the chart nearby, assumed to purchase a $14,000 health insurance policy. The straight line reflects what the family would get under the $5,000 McCain tax credit. The lower line shows the value of the current income tax exclusion, which rises and falls with a taxpayer's tax rate.

What is striking about this picture -- and contradicts Mr. Obama's public comments -- is that the McCain tax credit for the purchase of health insurance exceeds the value of the current exclusion for all income levels shown. Indeed, it generally provides more resources to purchase health insurance than the existing exclusion. The total subsidy for health care would rise from about $3.6 trillion over 10 years today to roughly $5 trillion under his proposal.

How large an effect does this proposal have on the number of uninsured? Based on estimates by career economists in the Treasury Department's Office of Tax Analysis of similar proposals discussed in the Washington Beltway several years ago, the McCain health-care tax credit can be expected to increase the number of insured by 15 million and probably more. The Lewin Group, a respected private health-care research outfit, recently estimated that the McCain credit would increase the number of insured by as much as 21 million. It is true that many may no longer get their insurance through their employer, but they will be given the resources to purchase insurance on their own.

Will the insurance that is purchased be a generous plan with first dollar coverage or low deductibles? It is much more likely to be a plan with higher deductibles that is more focused on providing true insurance against catastrophic losses rather than a more generous plan that includes a lot of prepayment for routine and predictable medical expenses. But this is precisely one of the objectives of the policy: to reduce the current tax bias that encourages people to funnel routine health expenses through insurance policies.

Finally, the credit has important implications for the nation's finances down the road. This is perhaps the most important aspect of the proposal.

There is an enormous unfunded liability associated with the major entitlement programs of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. If left unchecked, the growth in these programs will nearly double the size of the federal government by 2040, consuming roughly 40% of the nation's output rather than the 20% today. While the growth in Social Security is largely the result of demographics, the growth in Medicare and Medicaid is also driven by the rapid growth in health-care spending. This is where a proposal like Sen. McCain's can be so important.

The elimination of the income-tax exclusion should reduce private health-care spending; to the extent this reduces the cost of health care, it should also put downward pressure on the growth of Medicare and Medicaid costs. Thus, by removing the tax bias for more generous health coverage, the McCain health credit also has the potential to provide important dividends to the entitlement problem down the road.

Mr. Carroll served as deputy assistant secretary for tax analysis at the U.S. Treasury. He is now vice president for economic policy at the Tax Foundation, and an executive-in-residence with American University's School of Public Affairs.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122506862956370705.html
 
Tom Daschle: United States Secretary of Health and Human Services-Nominee




At House Party on Health Care, the Diagnosis Is It’s Broken


By ROBERT PEAR
Published: December 22, 2008

VIENNA, Va. — When a dozen consumers gathered over the weekend to discuss health care at the behest of President-elect Barack Obama, they quickly agreed on one point: they despise health insurance companies.

They also agreed that health care was a right; that insurance should cover “everything,” not just some services; and that coverage should be readily available from the government, as well as from employers.

Those were the conclusions of a house party held here in Northern Virginia at the home of Karima Hijane and Theodore A. Kolovos, information technology consultants who have been married for seven years. It was one of more than 4,200 such events being held around the country from Dec. 15 to 31, as part of an experiment in grass-roots politics and policy-making, to provide recommendations to the president-elect..................http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/health/23health.html?em
 
Health care is already a "right". What is being argued is how (who) should pay for it. I still ask the question what right does anybody have to compel others to fund thier lives.
 
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Nationalized health care has some drawbacks too though. In Canada any doctor that's worth a damn moves to the US where they can make more than triple what they do at home. There's also no real incentive to develop new procedures, or even be particularly good at what you do because everyone gets paid the same. Waiting lists for specialists, and special equipment are unbelievable. I've known cancer patients who've had to wait months and travel for days just to get an MRI done. Worst of all, when you take the extra taxes and mandatory premiums into account nationalized health insurance costs almost as much as private.

That's not to say it's all bad. If you break your arm it's good to know that you can be seen at any hospital and not have to worry about the cost. However, if you have a serious illness or need any kind of surgery then private is the way to go. Even Canadian Prime Minster Jean Cretien went to the Mayo Clinic when he had to get a facial cyst dealt with.

c/s Alot of us are stuck on the fact that alot of people don't have healthcare. I know a few that don't have healthcare but they do have cable, cell phone, and fancy clothes. Before they provide healthcare for everyone they need to reform the system. Find a way to lower Rx, malpractice insurance, and equipment. I do installs sometimes for back power supplies for MRI's and other nuclear medicine machines. Those things aren't cheap. Also if you raise the taxes for that are you going to apply it equally across the board or fall back into that the more you make the more you have to pay. Also if everyone has insurance then we are going to need more doctors, nurses, clinics, and hospitals.
 
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The only solution I see to this is every American under the age of 18 or 21 has full coverage by the American government. That way no one person can say they weren't covered in there life time after the required age you would simply go and shop for your own health insurance, that way the free market still plays a role
 
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The only problem I have with socialized medicine is that the govt isn't doing that great of a job running social security and medicare. Do I want to deal with them running my healthcare now. Also who is going to pay for it? I know lower income people will be pissed if they have to start paying taxes so everyone will have healthcare. I don't believe in this raising taxes on the 'rich'. If it is for everyone then everyone should pay for it. I personally feel that they should raise taxes on everyone by the same amount. When you go buy a gallon of milk do they charge you based upon your income or is the price set and you fucking pay it.
 
The whole argument is silly!!! Most doctors opt out of Medicare or Medicaid due to low reinbursements. No one ever want to answer this question!!! How can the federal governent force independent physicians to accept substandard pay. If they can force doctors to accept whatever the government dictates, what's next your job? How in the hell the government is gonna force me to accept what they dictate. All doctors don't even accept all priviate insurance. Price controls ruin the market. Whose going to pay for this? Half of the country doesn't even pay taxes. This will trickle down to the poor and hurt them the most.
 
source: Think Progress

Today, Karl Rove penned an editorial in the Wall Street Journal attacking the public health care option. Rove’s ‘myths’ echo the poll-tested talking points of Frank Luntz and other conservatives determined to protect the private insurer’s monopoly over coverage and deny Americans choice. Below is a fact-check of Rove’s assertions. [Download a PDF version.]

MYTH 1: A public option is unnecessary: “It’s unnecessary. Advocates say a government-run insurance program is needed to provide competition for private health insurance. But 1,300 companies sell health insurance plans. That’s competition enough.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: Insurer and hospital markets are dominated by large insurers and provider systems. Private insurers rarely negotiate with dominant hospital systems and typically pass on the higher costs to beneficiaries in the form of higher premiums. Already, “1 in 6 metropolitan areas in a 2008 study of more than 300 U.S. markets is dominated by a single health insurer that controls at least 70% of consumers enrolled in health maintenance organizations or preferred provider organizations.” Such consolidation negates any real competition. Without it, insurers don’t negotiate prices and boost their profits. In fact, “there have been over 400 health care mergers in the last 10 years,” and premiums have risen “nearly eight times faster than average U.S. incomes.” A public plan could, in an environment of head-to-head competition, push private insurance companies to negotiate more aggressively with providers and dramatically lower health care spending.” [Urban Institute, 10/03/2008; LA Times, 4/09/2009]

MYTH 2: Private competition in Medicare Part D has reduced costs: “The results of robust private competition to provide the Medicare drug benefit underscore [the ability of private competition to lower prices]. When it was approved, the Congressional Budget Office estimated it would cost $74 billion a year by 2008. Nearly 100 providers deliver the drug benefit, competing on better benefits, more choices, and lower prices. So the actual cost was $44 billion in 2008 — nearly 41% less than predicted. No government plan was needed to guarantee competition’s benefits.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: Medicare Part D beneficiaries have experienced significant cost increases. According to a recent analysis by the Kaiser Family Foundation shows “significant increases in premiums, costsharing amounts, use of specialty tiers, and utilization management restrictions since 2008 that could have important implications for beneficiaries’ access to needed medications and out-of-pocket expenses.” [KFF, 6/2009]

MYTH 3: A public plan would shift costs to Americans with private insurance: “Second, a public option will undercut private insurers and pass the tab to taxpayers and health providers just as it does in existing government-run programs. For example, Medicare pays hospitals 71% and doctors 81% of what private insurers pay.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: Private insurer payments promote medical inefficiency. A new public option will change the way the health care reimbursement system so that we pay for value, not volume and reward efficient providers. According to MedPAC, Medicare rates are adequate and consistent with the efficient delivery of services. In fact, over-payments by private insurers to health-care providers drives up overall costs. “Hospitals which didn’t rely on high payment rates from private insurers ‘are able, in fact, to control their costs and reduce their costs when they need to’ and ‘combine low costs with quality.’” [WSJ, 3/17/2009]

MYTH 4: A public plan will lead to a welfare state:“If Democrats enact a public-option health-insurance program, America is on the way to becoming a European-style welfare state.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: Americans will choose a public health insurance plan from a menu of different options. The private insurance market isn’t going anywhere. Private insurers will play an important role in providing more integrated coverage options than the public plan and would retain a “brand advantage” (in the same way that a lot of people rather have the branded drug than the generic) for consumers. Private insurers who “offer a superior product through high levels of efficiency, satisfaction in consumer preferences and ease of access to quality medical services” will thrive in a reformed market. [Urban Institute, 10/03/2008]

MYTH 5: The public option is too expensive: “Fourth, the public option is far too expensive. The cost of Medicare — the purest form of a government-run “public choice” for seniors — will start exceeding its payroll-tax “trust fund” in 2017. The Obama administration estimates its health reforms will cost as much as $1.5 trillion over the next 10 years. It is no coincidence the Obama budget nearly triples the national debt over that same period.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: A public option will lower family premiums. If a public plan is “far too expensive” and has higher premiums, then Americans will not enroll. But if a public plan offers lower premiums, it will motivate private insurers to lower their costs. As a result, health care costs would decrease across the board.

MYTH 6: Americans will be forced into a public option: “Government-run health insurance would crater the private insurance market, forcing most Americans onto the government plan.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: The government would not force Americans to purchase coverage from the public plan, but Rove would force everyone under 65 to enroll with a private insurer. Rove is essentially arguing that the public plan would work too well. It would use its inherent efficiencies to lower family premiums and force private insurers to aggressively negotiate on behalf of their beneficiaries.

MYTH 7: The public option would put a bureaucrat between you and your doctor: “The public option puts government firmly in the middle of the relationship between patients and their doctors.” [WSJ, 6/11/2009]

TRUTH: A public option improves the doctor-patient relationship. Existing reform legislation explicitly preserves the doctor-patient relationship. As a draft of the HELP bill notes, “a strong doctor-patient relationship is essential to the practice of medicine, and patents have a right to an effective doctor patient relationships…Doctors, nurses, and other health professional have the right to judge what is best for their patients.” Moreover, the public plan’s payment innovations would reward doctors for providing quality care and spending more time listening to their patients. [HELP Legislation, 6/09/2009]
 
The Messiah booed at AMA!!!!







WASHINGTON (AP) - Barack Obama isn't used to hearing boos.
For all the young president's popularity, the response he got Monday from doctors at an American Medical Association meeting was a sign his road is only going to get rockier as he tries to sell his plan to overhaul the nation's health care system.

The boos erupted when Obama told the doctors in Chicago he wouldn't try to help them win their top legislative priority—limits on jury damages in medical malpractice cases.


But what could they expect? If Obama announced support for malpractice limits, that would set trial lawyers and unions—major supporters of Democratic candidates—on the attack. Not to mention consumer groups.

Every other group in the health care debate has a wish list and a top priority. Insurers don't want competition from the government. Employers don't want to be told they have to offer medical coverage to their workers. Hospitals want to stave off Medicare cuts. Drug companies want to charge what the market will bear.

Obama can't give all of them what they want. Instead, he's got to figure what's just enough to keep as many groups as possible on board—without alienating others. It's a fine line for him—and sometimes for them.

"It's a coalition issue," said Robert Blendon of the Harvard School of Public Health, an expert on public opinion and the politics of health care. "No major group is able by itself to sink health reform. But if numbers of them come together for different reasons, it could really hurt the direction the president wants to go in."

The doctors were only Obama's first house call. He'll be making his case to the other groups—and to the nation at large—in an increasingly energetic campaign to get a bill passed by the end of his first year in office.

AMA insiders shouldn't have been surprised by Obama's upfront refusal to consider malpractice caps.

The group couldn't get that idea passed by a Republican Congress and president a few years ago. Some states have such curbs, but anyone who can count votes knows the chances for national limits are slim to none with Democrats in charge of Congress.

Instead, Obama left the door open to some kind of compromise on malpractice.

The president said he's willing to explore alternatives to taking doctors to court. In the past, he supported special programs in which hospitals and doctors are encouraged to admit mistakes, correct them and offer compensation. Studies have shown the approach can work, because doctors' refusal to acknowledge mistakes is one reason many families file suit.

Doctors have special reasons to be wary of the president's plans to overhaul the health care system.

Not long ago, doctors' decisions were rarely questioned. Now they are being blamed for a big part of the wasteful spending in the nation's $2.5 trillion health care system. Studies have shown that as much as 30 cents of the U.S. health care dollar may be going for tests and procedures that are of little or no value to patients.

The Obama administration has cited such findings as evidence that the system is broken. Since doctors are the ones responsible for ordering tests and procedures, health care costs cannot be brought under control unless they change their decision-making habits.

"Change is scary," said Dartmouth University's Dr. Elliott Fisher, a doctor turned costs researcher. "I think there is a fear of loss of autonomy, that someone is going to tell you what to do." Fisher collaborated on research that showed wild differences in health care spending around the country—and no signs of better health in the high-cost areas.

But Obama did not blame the doctors. Instead, he tried to woo them, much as he has done with recalcitrant foreign leaders.

"It's the equivalent of international diplomacy. He's got to make them feel like it's possible to have dialogue about what the future looks like," said Blendon. "I think he's starting out with the AMA, but before the summer's over he's going to reach out to a lot of the other groups."

Obama assured the doctors that his plan would provide them with objective information on what treatments work best, with new computerized tools to better manage their patient case loads, and with support for harried solo practitioners to form networks.

He promised that Washington would not dictate clinical decisions. And he asked the doctors to imagine a world in which nearly every patient has insurance coverage and they can devote their full attention to the practice of medicine.

"You did not enter this profession to be bean-counters and paper-pushers," Obama said. "You entered this profession to be healers—and that's what our health care system should let you be."

That line got him an ovation.

___
 
Hospitals oppose cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. So when the establishments shut down because this crap is no longer profitable where are you guys gonna take your get out of jail free card??? This will cause hospital money shortages. The Toronto Star reported on Dec. 24, 1999 The Ontario government is " BAILING" out deficit ridden hospitals to the tune of $196 million. On Dec. 23, The Toronto Star ran the headline: "Ontario Government Report Calls For Up to 1,000 More M.Ds."

On January 18, 2003, The Canadian Press carried the headline: "Send Cancer Patients to U.S.. Breast cancer patients whose wait to see specialist jumped up to eight weeks.

Hospitals oppose Obama's Medicare, Medicaid cuts
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Jun 13, 10:04 PM (ET)

By CHARLES BABINGTON


WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama said Saturday he wants to help pay for his health care overhaul by slowing Medicare and Medicaid spending, but hospitals, medical technicians and others are resisting.
The high-stakes struggle over medical care is heating up as Obama declares the status quo unacceptable.
The president suggests trimming federal payments to hospitals by about $200 billion over the next 10 years, saying greater efficiencies and broader insurance coverage will justify the change. Hospitals, especially those with many poor patients, say the proposed cuts are unfair and will harm the sick and elderly.
Congress ultimately will shape the new laws. Obama is urging lawmakers to be bold and to resist powerful lobbies trying to maintain their clout and profits.
"Americans are being priced out of the care they need," Obama said in his weekly radio and Internet address.
Obama said high health care costs hurt the entire economy and contribute to the nearly 50 million people who lack coverage. His address focused on payments to Medicare and Medicaid, which cover millions of elderly and low-income people and involve thousands of doctors, hospitals, nursing homes and other institutions.
He proposed cutting $313 billion from the programs over 10 years. That's in addition to the $635 billion "down payment" in tax increases and spending cuts in the health care system that he announced earlier.
Together, Obama's plans would provide $948 billion over a decade in savings and/or tax increases to help insure practically everyone and to slow the rate of soaring health care costs.
The president wants to cut $106 billion over 10 years from payments that help hospitals treat uninsured people. Spending on Medicare prescription drugs would fall by $75 billion over a decade.
And slowing projected increases in Medicare payments to hospitals and other providers - but not doctors - would save $110 billion over 10 years, the president said.
Obama called them "commonsense changes," although he acknowledged that many details must be resolved. Some powerful industry groups called the proposals unwise and unfair.
"Payment cuts are not reform," Rich Umbdenstock, president of the American Hospital Association, said even before Obama's plan was announced. His group is urging hospitals with large proportions of low-income patients "to push back on proposed cuts."
The pharmaceutical industry is wary of Obama's plan to extract $75 billion over 10 years from Medicare prescription drug spending. The White House said "there are a variety of ways to achieve this goal." For instance, it said, drug reimbursements might be reduced for people who receive both Medicare and Medicaid.
The drug manufacturers' chief trade group issued a cautious statement Saturday, saying pharmaceutical companies support health care changes, but that much work remains to be done.
An industry group that which represents makers and users of medical imaging devices, such as MRI and CT equipment, was more hostile.
Obama wants to reduce government payments for such services. He said the devices are used so frequently and efficiently that providers can spread their costs over many patients, requiring less government reimbursement.
The Access to Medical Imaging Coalition, a trade group, disagreed. It said the president's plan would "impair access to diagnostic imaging services and result in patients' delaying or forgoing life- and cost-savings imaging procedures." The group said Obama's efficiency estimates were based on a flawed survey.
Even if Obama and Congress could hit the overall goal of $948 billion in health care savings over 10 years, it still might not be enough to cover all the nation's uninsured. Outside experts say the 10-year cost could range from $1.2 trillion to $1.8 trillion, depending on factors such as how generous federal subsidies turn out to be. One Senate proposal would subsidize families making as much as $110,000.
The administration wants to hold the cost to about $1 trillion, and Obama says the plan must not add to the federal deficit.
His budget director, Peter Orszag, told reporters that $948 billion "is in the ballpark of many of the proposals floating around," and that "there may well be some additional resources that are necessary." He said the administration will work with Congress.
But the president's earlier package of $635 billion in spending cuts and tax increases has gotten a cool reception from lawmakers. And there's no clear indication the latest proposal will fare any better.
House Republican leader John Boehner of Ohio said Medicare and Medicaid need reform, "but serious changes should not be rushed through Congress as part of a new government-run program that will raise taxes and make health care more expensive."
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Associated Press writer Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar contributed to this report.
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I ask again, what right does anybody have to compel someone else to pay for thier healthcare. This agruement is NOT about healthcare, but who is going to pay for it.
 
The nations top accountant. WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS CRAP!!!! THE MESSIAH SAYS WERE BROKE!!!! LISTEN TO THIS GUY, HE DOESN'T CARE IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAP OR REPUBLICAN

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Sad thing is: Of all the brilliant clinical analysis presented by both sides, No one has given a sufficient answer as to WHY healthcare is so expensive. People are busy looking at the symptoms as opposed to the problems. Everyone is in agreement that it costs a lot but whether its run by the govt or left in its current state, those costs will still be there.

Simple answer to the high cost of healthcare, look into govt regulation in the industry and monetary policy. Like it or not, all regulation is an added burden on the establishment providing the service and is passed along to the end user (kinda like a tax).
Monetary Policy - prices always rise in relation to the money supply.
 
Sad thing is: Of all the brilliant clinical analysis presented by both sides, No one has given a sufficient answer as to WHY healthcare is so expensive. People are busy looking at the symptoms as opposed to the problems. Everyone is in agreement that it costs a lot but whether its run by the govt or left in its current state, those costs will still be there.

Simple answer to the high cost of healthcare, look into govt regulation in the industry and monetary policy. Like it or not, all regulation is an added burden on the establishment providing the service and is passed along to the end user (kinda like a tax).
Monetary Policy - prices always rise in relation to the money supply.

No one has given a sufficient answer as to WHY healthcare is so expensive

It’s laid out so succinctly, even a right winger or libertarian can understand it. Whether you accept it is another story.

1 - FRONTLINE "Sick Around the World"

2 -Sicko
 
http://mobile.boston.com/siteserver...te?t=TkC22aO6NSaNlJDTXhCKQQ&sid=boston=boston

BILOXI, Miss. - The nation's governors, Democrats as well as Republicans, voiced deep concern yesterday about the shape of the healthcare bill emerging from Congress, fearing that the federal government is about to hand them expensive new Medicaid obligations without providing the money to pay for them.

The role of the states in a restructured healthcare system dominated the summer meeting of the National Governors Association here this weekend - with bipartisan animosity voiced against the Obama administration's plan during a closed-door luncheon Saturday and in a private meeting yesterday afternoon with the secretary of health and human services, Kathleen Sebelius.

"I think the governors would all agree that what we don't want from the federal government is unfunded mandates,'' said Governor Jim Douglas of Vermont, a Republican who is the group's incoming chairman. "We can't have the Congress impose requirements that we are forced to absorb beyond our capacity to do so.''

The governors' backlash creates yet another healthcare headache for the Obama administration, which has tried to recruit state leaders to pressure members of Congress to wrap up their fitful negotiations. In its effort to win support for the health plan, the administration dispatched Sebelius - who was governor of Kansas before she joined the cabinet in April - and the federal Medicaid chief, Cindy Mann, to meet here with the governors. Meanwhile, other administration officials spent yesterday pushing the proposal on television talk shows.

President Obama also plans to address questions about his health plan at a news conference Wednesday.

Although many governors said significant change was needed, they said their deep-seated fiscal troubles made it a terrible time to shift costs to the states. With the recession draining states of tax revenues even as their Medicaid rolls are surging, the National Governors Association projects that states will face aggregate deficits of $200 billion over the next three years.

Because the states and the federal government share the cost of Medicaid coverage for low-income people, any increase in eligibility levels, benefits, or payments to doctors would impose new costs on the states unless Washington agrees to absorb them entirely. In at least one of several bills circulating in Congress, the states would eventually pick up a share of the new costs, and the governors fear they cannot count on pledges in other bills that they will be held harmless.

It was unclear whether the governors' association would put together a statement expressing its dismay, at least partly because half of the governors did not attend. Many, including the group's chairman, Governor Edward G. Rendell, a Pennsylvania Democrat, stayed home to deal with budget crises.

Some of the group's most recognizable names - Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, Sarah Palin of Alaska, Charlie Crist of Florida, Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota, Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, David Paterson of New York, Jennifer M. Granholm of Michigan, and Mark Sanford of South Carolina - were not here.

But the sentiment among those who were could not have been more consistent, regardless of political party. The governors said in interviews and public sessions that the bills being drafted in Congress would not do enough to curb the growth in health spending. And they said they were convinced that a major expansion of Medicaid would leave them with heavy costs.

They are already anticipating large gaps in Medicaid financing after 2010, when stimulus money will no longer be available. And they point out that Medicaid already suffers from low payment rates to healthcare providers, discouraging some doctors and hospitals from accepting beneficiaries. If Medicaid is expanded, states would almost surely have to increase payments to doctors to encourage more of them to participate.

Governor Phil Bredesen, a Tennessee Democrat, said he feared Congress was about to bestow "the mother of all unfunded mandates.''

"Medicaid is a poor vehicle for expanding coverage,'' said Bredesen, a former healthcare executive. "It's a 45-year-old system originally designed for poor women and their children. It's not healthcare reform to dump more money into Medicaid.''

He was far from alone. "As a governor, my concern is that if we try to cost-shift to the states, we're not going to be in a position to pick up the tab,'' said Governor Christine Gregoire of Washington, a Democrat.

"I'm personally very concerned about the cost issue, particularly the $1 trillion figures being batted around,'' said Governor Bill Richardson, the New Mexico Democrat who served in the Clinton Cabinet and ran for president against Obama.

Administration officials said they did not see the governors' concerns as a major impediment to passage of the legislation. Asked about the concerns, Peter R. Orszag, director of the White House Office of Management and Budget, made two points. First, he said, one of Obama's overriding goals was to reduce the rate of growth of health costs, and that would benefit states, by relieving pressure on their budgets. In addition, he said, some versions of the legislation, including the House bill, could slightly reduce state spending on Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program the next 10 years.

Many governors expressed frustration that the prolonged negotiations in Washington had made it difficult to gauge the potential impact on their budgets.

"There's a concern about whether they have fully figured out a revenue stream that would cover the costs, and that if they don't have all the dollars accounted for, it will fall on the states,'' said Governor Bill Ritter Jr., a Colorado Democrat.

Under the proposals before Congress, Medicaid eligibility would be based solely on income, without regard to other factors that have historically been used to decide who qualifies.

Under the House bill, Medicaid would be expanded to cover all non-elderly people with incomes at or below 133 percent of the poverty level, or $29,300 for a family of four. The federal government would pay 100 percent of the costs for those newly eligible. Medicaid would also cover newborns, for up to 60 days after birth, if they did not have insurance from other sources.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that 11 million additional people would receive coverage through Medicaid under the House bill, and that it would increase federal Medicaid spending by $438 billion over 10 years. Medicaid thus accounts for a huge share of the bill's effects: about 40 percent of the cost and 30 percent of the people who gain coverage.

In the latest draft of the Senate Finance Committee's bill, still being written, the federal government would pick up the extra costs for perhaps five years, but states would then have to pay their normal share. On average, the federal government pays 57 percent, and states pay 43 percent.

One of the proposals considered last week by the Finance Committee would have encouraged states to issue bonds to cover the costs of expanding Medicaid. Governors in both parties revolted, trumpeting their opposition in a conference call last week with Senator Max Baucus, Democrat from Montana who leads the committee.

"There's strong bipartisan opposition to the idea of the states' issuing bonds to pay for operational expenses,'' said Governor Haley Barbour of Mississippi, chairman of the Republican Governors Association. "One governor said it'd be like taking out a mortgage to pay the grocery bill.''

© Copyright 2009 Globe Newspaper Company.
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Wal-Mart’s new everyday low price: A $40 doctor visit

Wal-Mart’s new everyday low price: A $40 doctor visit
By AndriaCheng
Published: Oct 17, 2014 5:11 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Wal-Mart Stores Inc. pushed down prices for some generic prescription drugs to just $4 eight years ago, setting a new industry standard. Now it is trying to do the same for seeing a doctor.

On Friday, a Walmart Care Clinic opened in Dalton, Ga., six months after Walmart U.S., the retailer’s WMT, +0.02% biggest unit, entered the business of providing primary health care. It now operates a dozen clinics in rural Texas, South Carolina and Georgia and has increased its target for openings this year to 17.

An office visit costs $40, which Walmart U.S. says is about half the industry standard, and just $4 for Walmart U.S. employees and family members with the company’s insurance. A pregnancy test costs just $3, and a cholesterol test $8. A typical retail clinic offers acute care only. But a Walmart Care Clinic also treats chronic conditions such as diabetes. (Walmart U.S. also leases space in its stores to 94 clinics owned by others that set their own pricing.)

“It was very important to us that we establish a retail price in the health-care industry because price leadership matters to us,” said Jennifer LaPerre, a Walmart U.S. senior director responsible for health and wellness, in an interview.

Walmart U.S. hasn’t yet decided whether to roll out the clinics nationally. It so far has limited itself to markets where people are uninsured or underinsured, have a high rate of chronic diseases or struggle to get access to medical care, as well as places where it has a large number of employees. About 40% of the patients seen at the clinics so far don’t have a primary-care provider, LaPerre said.

But should it expand the concept, it could end up in competition with Target Corp. TGT, +0.93% , Walgreen Co. WAG, -0.04% and CVS Health Corp. CVS, -1.11% and potentially start a price war over health care.

Clinics are a growing part of retailers’ focus. CVS, for example, charges $22 for a pregnancy test at its clinic and up to $69 for a cholesterol test, according to its price lists. Walgreen this year added some chronic-care services to its lineup.

“The cost of health care is opaque,” said Robin Sherk, an analyst at research consultancy Kantar Retail. “This is very transparent and a very compelling proposition. It can be very disruptive to the marketplace.”

A Walmart Care Clinic may not appeal to everyone. The only insurance programs it accepts (beyond the one for Walmart employees) are Medicare for the elderly and, in South Carolina and Georgia, Medicaid for the poor. The co-pay at a clinic that accepts private insurance typically is between nothing and $25, said Thomas Charland, chief executive of Merchant Medicine, a consultancy targeting the walk-in medicine industry.

For Wal-Mart, the clinics could help lower its own health-care bill. The company cut its outlook this year after projecting an additional $500 million increase in health-care costs, which CEO Doug McMillon on Wednesday described as “a real issue.”

It also helps address another problem: sluggish traffic at its supercenters. The clinics are located inside the stores, sometimes by the pharmacy department, and patients could be tempted to buy other items on their way out.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wal-marts-new-everyday-low-price-a-40-doctor-visit-2014-10-17
 
Re: Wal-Mart’s new everyday low price: A $40 doctor visit

Wal-Mart’s new everyday low price: A $40 doctor visit
By AndriaCheng
Published: Oct 17, 2014 5:11 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Wal-Mart Stores Inc. pushed down prices for some generic prescription drugs to just $4 eight years ago, setting a new industry standard. Now it is trying to do the same for seeing a doctor.

On Friday, a Walmart Care Clinic opened in Dalton, Ga., six months after Walmart U.S., the retailer’s WMT, +0.02% biggest unit, entered the business of providing primary health care. It now operates a dozen clinics in rural Texas, South Carolina and Georgia and has increased its target for openings this year to 17.

An office visit costs $40, which Walmart U.S. says is about half the industry standard, and just $4 for Walmart U.S. employees and family members with the company’s insurance. A pregnancy test costs just $3, and a cholesterol test $8. A typical retail clinic offers acute care only. But a Walmart Care Clinic also treats chronic conditions such as diabetes. (Walmart U.S. also leases space in its stores to 94 clinics owned by others that set their own pricing.)

“It was very important to us that we establish a retail price in the health-care industry because price leadership matters to us,” said Jennifer LaPerre, a Walmart U.S. senior director responsible for health and wellness, in an interview.

Walmart U.S. hasn’t yet decided whether to roll out the clinics nationally. It so far has limited itself to markets where people are uninsured or underinsured, have a high rate of chronic diseases or struggle to get access to medical care, as well as places where it has a large number of employees. About 40% of the patients seen at the clinics so far don’t have a primary-care provider, LaPerre said.

But should it expand the concept, it could end up in competition with Target Corp. TGT, +0.93% , Walgreen Co. WAG, -0.04% and CVS Health Corp. CVS, -1.11% and potentially start a price war over health care.

Clinics are a growing part of retailers’ focus. CVS, for example, charges $22 for a pregnancy test at its clinic and up to $69 for a cholesterol test, according to its price lists. Walgreen this year added some chronic-care services to its lineup.

“The cost of health care is opaque,” said Robin Sherk, an analyst at research consultancy Kantar Retail. “This is very transparent and a very compelling proposition. It can be very disruptive to the marketplace.”

A Walmart Care Clinic may not appeal to everyone. The only insurance programs it accepts (beyond the one for Walmart employees) are Medicare for the elderly and, in South Carolina and Georgia, Medicaid for the poor. The co-pay at a clinic that accepts private insurance typically is between nothing and $25, said Thomas Charland, chief executive of Merchant Medicine, a consultancy targeting the walk-in medicine industry.

For Wal-Mart, the clinics could help lower its own health-care bill. The company cut its outlook this year after projecting an additional $500 million increase in health-care costs, which CEO Doug McMillon on Wednesday described as “a real issue.”

It also helps address another problem: sluggish traffic at its supercenters. The clinics are located inside the stores, sometimes by the pharmacy department, and patients could be tempted to buy other items on their way out.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wal-marts-new-everyday-low-price-a-40-doctor-visit-2014-10-17

walmart_low_morals_alt.jpg
 
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