Marines engaged in war of attrition

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="6"><center>Marines engaged in war of attrition</font size></center>

By Tom Lasseter

Seattle Times
Knight Ridder Newspapers
ugust 28, 2005

FALLUJAH, Iraq — Insurgents in Anbar province, the center of guerrilla resistance in Iraq, have fought the U.S. military to a stalemate.

After repeated major combat offensives in Fallujah and Ramadi, and after losing hundreds of soldiers and Marines in Anbar during the past two years — including 75 since June 1 — many U.S. officers and enlisted men assigned to Anbar have stopped talking about winning a military victory in Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland.

Instead, they're trying to hold on to a few population centers and hit smaller towns in quick-strike operations designed to disrupt insurgent activities temporarily.

"I don't think of this in terms of winning," said Col. Stephen Davis, who commands a task force of about 5,000 Marines in an area of some 24,000 square miles in the western portion of Anbar.

His Marines are fighting a war of attrition, he said.

"The frustrating part for the [American] audience, if you will, is they want finality. They want a fight for the town and in the end the guy with the white hat wins," Davis said.

Long insurgency seen

That's unlikely in Anbar, he said. Davis expects the insurgency to last for years, hitting American and Iraqi forces with quick ambushes, bombs and mines. Roadside bombs have hit vehicles Davis was riding in three times this year.

"We understand counterinsurgency ... we paid for these lessons in blood in Vietnam," Davis said. "You'll get killed on a nice day when everything is quiet."

Most of Iraq is far quieter than Anbar. But Anbar is Iraq's largest province and home to the Arab Sunni minority, which dominated the government under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship. It's the strategic center of the country and failure to secure it could thwart the Bush administration's hopes of helping to create a functioning Iraqi democracy.

Military officials now frequently compare the fight in Anbar to the Vietnam War, saying that guerrilla fighters, who blend back into the population, are trying to break the will of the American military — rather than defeat it outright — and to erode public support for the war back home.

"If it were just killing people that would win this, it'd be easy," said Marine Maj. Nicholas Visconti, 35, of Brookfield, Conn., who served in southern Iraq in 2003. "But look at Vietnam. We killed millions, and they kept coming. It's a war of attrition. They're not trying to win. It's just like in Vietnam. They won a long, protracted fight that the American public did not have the stomach for. ... Killing people is not the answer; rebuilding the cities is."

Minutes after he spoke, two mortar rounds flew over the building where he's based in Hit. Visconti didn't flinch as the explosions rang out.

Fighters gain strength

During three weeks of reporting along the Euphrates River valley, home to Anbar's main population centers and the core of insurgent activity, military officials offered three primary reasons that guerrilla fighters have held and gained ground: the enemy's growing sophistication, insufficient numbers of U.S. troops and the lack of trained and reliable Iraqi security forces.

They described an enemy who's intelligent and adaptive:

• Military officials in Ramadi said insurgents there had learned the times of their patrol-shift changes. When one group of vehicles comes to relieve another, civilian traffic is pushed to the side of the road to allow the military to pass. Insurgents use this opportunity to drop homemade bombs out their windows or through holes cut in the rear floor.

• The insurgents have figured out the different viewing ranges of the optics systems in U.S. tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Humvees.

"They've mapped it out. They go into the road and try to draw fire to see what our range is and then they make a note of it and start putting IEDs that far out," said Army Maj. Jason Pelletier, 32, of the 28th Infantry Division, referring to improvised explosive devices, the military's term for homemade bombs.

• Faced with the U.S. military's technological might, guerrilla fighters have relied on gathering intelligence and using cheap, effective devices to kill and maim.

Marines raided a home near their base in Hit and found three Sudanese insurgents with a crude map they'd drawn of the U.S. base, including notes detailing when patrols left the gate, whether they were on foot or in vehicles and the numbers of Marines on the patrols.

The three men also had $11,000 in cash in an area in which insurgents pay locals $50 to plant bombs in the road.

The guerrilla fighters in Hit have used small, yellow and pink, Japanese star-shaped alarm clocks — similar to those popular with little girls in the United States — as timers to detonate rocket launchers and mortar systems aimed at Marine positions.

They frequently use sawed-off curtain rods planted 50 or so yards away to calibrate the ranges to nearby bases. One of the two Marine positions in the city receives mortar fire almost daily. Patrols from the other base are hit by frequent roadside bombings.

Instead of referring to the enemy derisively as "terrorists" — as they used to — Marines and soldiers now give the insurgents a measure of respect by calling them "mujahedeen," an Arabic term meaning "holy warrior" that became popular during the Afghan guerrilla campaign against the Soviet Union.

Military commanders in Anbar hope to combat the insurgency through a multipronged strategy of political progress, reconstruction and training Iraqi security forces.

Little political progress

However, there's been less political progress in Anbar than in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shiite Muslim south, the violence there has stymied progress in rebuilding towns destroyed in the fighting and Iraqi forces are still a long way from being able to secure the province.

U.S. officials hope that a strong turnout in national elections in December will turn people away from violence. They expressed similar hopes before January's elections. However, while those elections were a success in many parts of the nation, in Anbar the turnout was in the single digits.

"Some of the Iraqis say they want to vote but they're worried there'll be a bomb at the polling station," Marine Capt. James Haunty, 27, of Columbus, Ohio, said recently. "It's a legitimate fear, but I always tell them, just trust me."

Less than five minutes after Haunty spoke, near the town of Hit, a roadside bomb down the street produced a loud boom followed by a funnel of black smoke.

Many Sunnis in Anbar say they'll vote against the constitution in October, as they've felt excluded from the process of drafting the document.

While fighting has severely damaged many towns and precluded widespread reconstruction efforts, Marines in Fallujah are working to make that city a centerpiece of rebuilding. Fallujah residences sustained some $225 million in damage last November during a U.S. assault aimed at clearing the city of insurgents, according to Marine Lt. Col. Jim Haldeman, who oversees the civil military operations center in Fallujah.

Homeowners have received 20 percent of that amount to rebuild homes, and will get the next 20 percent in the coming weeks, Haldeman said. Families are walking the streets once again and shops have reopened. The sound of hammers is constant, and men line the streets mixing concrete and laying bricks out to dry.

Even so, of the 250,000 population before the fighting, just 150,000 residents have returned. And the insurgency has come back to the area.

Iraqis are still a long way from being able to provide their own security in Anbar. As with much of the province, Fallujah has no functioning police force. Police in Ramadi are confined to two heavily fortified stations, after insurgents destroyed or seriously damaged eight others.

The Iraqi national guard, heralded last year as the answer to local security, was dissolved because of incompetence and insurgent infiltration, as was the guard's predecessor, the civil defense corps.

The new Iraqi army has participated in all the Marines' recent sweeps in Anbar, in a limited way. While the Iraqi soldiers haven't thrown down their weapons and run, as they have in the past, many of them are still unable to operate without close U.S. supervision.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002454616_anbar28.html
 
Its obvious we came in with not enough troops, as soon as we take over a town like Fallujah and Ramadi we don't have enough soldiers to secure the town and the insurgents sneak back in again.
 
This is not a war it is an occupation, so what occupations have been successful in the past?

First of all thes people have every right to fight and occupying army, just as the "patriots" did hundreds of years ago, and the natives did.

How the hell are they wrong?

None of yall would let another country come here and boss you then call you insurgents in your own shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah you would welcome outside help.

Look our "leaders" were wrong in this shit, the troops and their loved ones are paying the price.

Trust me bush would pull out if he could find the right lame ass excuse.

Its a mess. People have been making military blunders since the dawn of time. Naploleon, alexander, hitler, rome, custard(lol), soviets and afghanastan.

I mean our government messed up in this occupation thing they tried to pull.

People might be reading this 1000 years from now in history and say "WTF was wrong with america".

Remember V the final battle? Despite all technology when people have HUMAN will they might find a way.

The tanks getting dust and shit in them, people tired and wonder why they are there, meanwhile insurgents know you aint supposed to be there.

Pull them out and bring them home and if Iraq even looks like its haded the wrong way just drop bombs like we did from 91 to 2000.
 
The problem with withdrawal, as I see it, is what happens then. If it is true that Al Qaeda is as active behind the insurgency (sorry gene - I don't have a better word to call it) as we've been told, then we would have essentially chased it out of one home and granted it another, one with far more assets (money, oil, military capability, etc.) than Afghanistan. While I don't think we should have invaded Iraq, I just don't see how withdrawal, at this point, is wise or feasible.

The Iraqis don't appear to be getting anywhere close to being able to defend/police themselves; a political solution doesn't sound promising -- because we/the Shiites can't bring the Sunnis to agreement; the insurgency is wearing on; and there is talk of Osama making Iraq his new home. Shit doesn't sound so good -- and we need something to break for the good. My mother always says: your darkest hour is just before the break of dawn. What time is it ?

QueEx
 
It is simple!!!!

Withdraw THEN bomb and INVADE and TAKE!!!!!!!!!

I mean this shit could last for decades.

Withdraw and let it become even more fucked up, bomb and take it over.

Serious business. All the iraqis will do is end up in civil war. Let it happen.

We fucked up invading, no need to do it twice.

This is in americas best interest. Withdraw, let shit fuck up even worse(believe that is possible QUE since early 03 haha) and just bomb it to shit and fully take over.

Dont see no other way. I could wake up like buck rogers and the kurds, shiites, and sunnis ill still be fighting about what is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Withdraw and show how fucked up they are(even though america caused the recent outburst) then attack and just really take over.

I mean they would have to do them like native americans to end this.

Either kill or let live, the occupation thing wont work no time soon.
 
If we did withdraw right now, bombed Iraq back to the stone age, and re-invaded -- are you saying there wouldn't be a Second Insurgency ???

If we withdrew now, and Binny and his Jets consolidate -- if we thought he Liadem on us in 01, what should we expect Binny to Lay on the world then ???

QueEx
 
gene cisco said:
This is not a war it is an occupation, so what occupations have been successful in the past?

First of all thes people have every right to fight and occupying army, just as the "patriots" did hundreds of years ago, and the natives did.

How the hell are they wrong?

None of yall would let another country come here and boss you then call you insurgents in your own shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah you would welcome outside help.

Look our "leaders" were wrong in this shit, the troops and their loved ones are paying the price.

Trust me bush would pull out if he could find the right lame ass excuse.

Its a mess. People have been making military blunders since the dawn of time. Naploleon, alexander, hitler, rome, custard(lol), soviets and afghanastan.

I mean our government messed up in this occupation thing they tried to pull.

People might be reading this 1000 years from now in history and say "WTF was wrong with america".

Remember V the final battle? Despite all technology when people have HUMAN will they might find a way.

The tanks getting dust and shit in them, people tired and wonder why they are there, meanwhile insurgents know you aint supposed to be there.

Pull them out and bring them home and if Iraq even looks like its haded the wrong way just drop bombs like we did from 91 to 2000.

We can still bomb the shit out of these sunni bastards without withdrawing completely, I say its time to choose sides. The reason this is all dragging out so long is because we want to make all the Iraqis happy, which is not going to work, the Sunnis are so used to being in charge they refuse to come to an agreement with the Kurds and Shites, I say we pull back, bomb the shit out of this godforsaken Sunni triangle, arm the Shites and Kurds, and let them clean house. :mad:
 
Gods_Favorite said:
We can still bomb the shit out of these sunni bastards without withdrawing completely, I say its time to choose sides. The reason this is all dragging out so long is because we want to make all the Iraqis happy, which is not going to work, the Sunnis are so used to being in charge they refuse to come to an agreement with the Kurds and Shites, I say we pull back, bomb the shit out of this godforsaken Sunni triangle, arm the Shites and Kurds, and let them clean house. :mad:

FIGHTING AN INFERIROR ENEMY 101:

It's not only the Sunnis fighting us! Some of those are Shiites or Shiite operatives from Iran. The longer they keep this going the more Sunnis and Amerikkkans get killed. Shiites never started loving Amerikkka because we put Saddam there to slow their growth in the region. It amazes me how people in Amerikkka act like they are blind to reality but we all know by now that this was nothing more than a REPUGNANT hustle on the Amerikkkan taxpayers.

The enemy will get better and smarter over time.

Technological advantages are superceeded by their disadvantages-The disadvantages are expoloited over TIME. See Russia/Afghanastan.

Enemy has less vuneralbilities: Mess hall, supply lines, compassion for victims since they are the ones invaded. They consider themselves the victims.

Enemy has more motivation with every single kill, let alone the religious aspect of killing or BEING killed by the us.

Enemy concealment, our confusion, and enemy's inability to be contained equals enemy advantages.

Those aforementioned things are just paraphrases of strategic anologies of the situation. Much of this I said at the beginning of all of this. We now have Marine Commanders acknowledging that they aren't trying to win! Why the F*ck are we there? No WMD, No Osama, No Constitution, No attempt at victory? Oh yeah BuchCo made about a $trillion in taxpayer money.

The worst part about all of this is that I'm pretty sure Iran is taking in intel on fighting our troops not to mention who else could be gaining intel on our vulneralbilities.

Congratulations REPUGNANTS your GREED has officially bent Amerikkka over. While the Israelies buy up Amerikkka under the radar. Wake up people!
 
Like north america but updated.

QUE, we went into this war on a "fuck the world" mentality. We didnt have approval, no legit evidence, and still did it.

Why not pull out, wait a few years, and go back in just taking it over completely cause we have "national security concerns", at that point there would be a real reason to invade.

Like I said in spring 03' this invasion has created more enemies. We have enemies we didnt have.

How many native americans do you see? Either america has to get back on that way of thinking OR lose this occupation(its not a war).

Bomb that shit until there is nothing left but oil and a few people scattered about OR just go home.

This country wants to be a theocracy anyway, so either way they might end up more of a threat than they were before these fools invaded.

This is americas waterloo, i bet everybody wishes we could just push reset and start the game over from january 2003.

Que how do we save face here? Keep sending troops for the next 12 years only to have the same results a pullout now would have?

We can't leave some say, well we sure as hell cannot stay until we define a realistic mission. You are a military man. china is stacking up, iran amoungst others are arming up. North korea always been a bigger threat than iraq, now we are going to be stuck in this shithole using up forces, equiptment, etc.

It cannot keep going down like this. In history military blunders are many.

This is a big blunder and will fuck up the region for years to come. many people like me that dont have the expert experience but have common sense and no grudge have advised people making these same fucked up choices!!!!

"Hey general custard pie, shouldnt we wait for back up or retreat!!!"

"Hey napoleon, russia and winter hey maybe a bad idea"

"hey santa anna, should we really split our forces?"

"hey rome, maybe we should take these barbarians we trained seriously."

"Hey hitler, napoleon, russia, winter, lets rethink this."

Many examples of bad military strategy, where stubberness was the rule against admitting a mistake.

Some times it is better to chalk it up, retreat, regroup and fight another day.

Maybe if women were running this campaign it would be a success, we wont even stop to ask for directions, let alone military advice!!!!!!!!!!!
 
gene cisco said:
Like north america but updated.

QUE, we went into this war on a "fuck the world" mentality. We didnt have approval, no legit evidence, and still did it.

Why not pull out, wait a few years, and go back in just taking it over completely cause we have "national security concerns", at that point there would be a real reason to invade.

Like I said in spring 03' this invasion has created more enemies. We have enemies we didnt have.

How many native americans do you see? Either america has to get back on that way of thinking OR lose this occupation(its not a war).

Bomb that shit until there is nothing left but oil and a few people scattered about OR just go home.

This country wants to be a theocracy anyway, so either way they might end up more of a threat than they were before these fools invaded.

This is americas waterloo, i bet everybody wishes we could just push reset and start the game over from january 2003.

Que how do we save face here? Keep sending troops for the next 12 years only to have the same results a pullout now would have?

We can't leave some say, well we sure as hell cannot stay until we define a realistic mission. You are a military man. china is stacking up, iran amoungst others are arming up. North korea always been a bigger threat than iraq, now we are going to be stuck in this shithole using up forces, equiptment, etc.

It cannot keep going down like this. In history military blunders are many.

This is a big blunder and will fuck up the region for years to come. many people like me that dont have the expert experience but have common sense and no grudge have advised people making these same fucked up choices!!!!

"Hey general custard pie, shouldnt we wait for back up or retreat!!!"

"Hey napoleon, russia and winter hey maybe a bad idea"

"hey santa anna, should we really split our forces?"

"hey rome, maybe we should take these barbarians we trained seriously."

"Hey hitler, napoleon, russia, winter, lets rethink this."

Many examples of bad military strategy, where stubberness was the rule against admitting a mistake.

Some times it is better to chalk it up, retreat, regroup and fight another day.

Maybe if women were running this campaign it would be a success, we wont even stop to ask for directions, let alone military advice!!!!!!!!!!!
Geno, (trying to stay dry right now, keep a generator fed with petro and concerned about relatives in the Big Easy and along the Gulf Coast) to divert my attention from that for a well needed minute: I don't think there is any question that doing Iraq under the pretenses used was not only a mistake, but wrong. I also don't think that there is much question that we've created a terrorist bastion where there was none before. The Shiites are not our friends and neither are the Sunnis, but what do we do?

Drawing on your list of failed military campaigns -- we have either to withdraw or come up with a better strategy than we presently have. I've expressed my fears earlier over withdrawal -- and I think this may be one of those situations where withdrawal (at this point in the present state of affairs) may be worse than getting smarter -- a lot smarter than we've been.

Essentially, we withdrew from Vietnam and there were all kinds of fears over what would emerge in the aftermath. Of course, communism didn't spread beyond Vietnam and maybe the greatest harm because of the withdrawal was visited upon the American psyche, especially the American military psyche. If we withdrew now, we could overcome the "Psyche Damage" -- but could we overcome, as CAPTAIN pointed out in a different way, IRAN ??? I do believe that Iran is manipulating matters in Iraq against our interest as we did with the Mujahideen against the Russians -- which oddly enough, gave rise to Osama in the first place.

On the other hand, I think not only have we not made the US any safer because of the invasion, I think we have made that region of the world less safe and withdrawing will make it even less safe. If it is true that a less safe Middle East makes us less safe, we've just about brewed the perfect terrorist storm.

If we can't pull the Sunnis into the government (hoping that will kill off a large part of the insurgency) then our only hope may very well be to team up with the Shiites (religious radicals and all) and Kurds against them -- hopefully short of a civil war. If Shiite and Kurd areas can be secured, that would leave troops available to take on those provinces north and west of Baghdad that are presently OWNED by the insurgents. That would probably mean a slow, block by block sort routing out of insurgents in Sunni areas and being damn careful NOT to harm or humiliate non-combatants because -- there are estimates which say the Muslim population world-wide is 75-90 percent Sunni.

We created this mess -- and I don't think we can run away from it.

QueEx
 
There is an alternative, the army could put the town on the payroll, afterall this is about spreading capitalism throughout the middle east, what better way to do it than putting money in people's pocket, if they will kill GI's for a 50 they'll prolly stop for a 100. The problem is the administration don't want to admit failing, they don't want to fire anyone, they damn sho don't want to take those contracts from halliburton so they are letting the situation worsen. It's time for moderate reps. and demos. to do what's right and demand some strategy changes if they do the situation could still be salvaged.
 
Ok, but even if we use your strategy, it still fails and doesnt justify us being there. This will still become a theocracy with an oppressed minority(sunnis) who happen to be the majority elsewhere.

Its just a mess fam.

I like peace, my withdrawing strategy is more a faked one.

We take out our troops, wait for them to fuck up, THEN come in bomb it to shit and really take it over. I am talking major damage and major casualties.

No matter what strategy you take with our troops still ordering them around it will be no good. We can come up with 1000 ways to fail doing that.

What Iran has learned from this is what they can learn from any history book, HOW NOT TO DO AN OCCUPATION!!!!!!

They know we could send planes and put them under forever!!!!!!!!!!!

Does us withdrawing make us look weak? Not to anybody with any military knowledge that isnt china.

So the myth of us leaving makes us weak that alot of people talk of is false.

The truth is as you said we messed up the region big time, sodam was the only secular there, which is needed in the muslim world of radicals!!!!

Man I wish any of us could make sense of this mess, all though we come up with ideas, how many will work to any extent? Seriously there is no way to straighten this mess up with our troops there. NONE.

Our occupation creates the problem.

There are smart people on this board, but we would need , SUN TZU, ALEXANDER, GHENGIS, MACHIVELLI and BENNY FRANKLIN(statesmen always help) to figure out a strategy for this fouled up shit.

Its like bush spilled cranberry juice, grease, horse shit and blood on a white persian carpet and walked through it and didnt tell us for 2 weeks, now he talking bout fix the stain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Sun Tzu ,Machivelli and Alexander would do as I suggested use diplomacy and treachery. Even Ghengis had a soundproof plan of empowering his conquest by letting them keep their religious and social systems all he demanded was they pay him tax. Bush on the other hand went in without a plan and refuses to use real diplomacy naturally he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the others.
 
You right, ghengis also used fear. Anybody that put up a fight was killed. Men, women,childen, beast.
He would let some escape to tell of what happened. Time he got to the next place they were glad to only pay him tax!!!!!!!

But they never tried some bullshit on this grand a level. Try to lie to invade and not share the plunder(which alexander and ghengis did) or come up with a reasonable lie.

I suggested diplomacy and treachery now. NOW, after this bullshit invasion didnt work.

But how does this make america look better to leaders that KNOW this in other countries.

I mean if we on BGOL can figure it out sure as hell some 55 year old militay experts can figured out we fucked up in Iraq and the american people believe bullshit and let our leaders get away with corrupt shit.

No telling how this will come out. I mean other countries without nuclear weapons may here bush rhetoric in this country and know he doesnt care about US or THEM and can make up a reason to invade.

I still think my theory is the best. Pull out and then use lies to say they fucked up the country(knowing the invasion did) and then bomb it to shit saying its a terrorist haven or threat to our security.

Bush created a cancer out of something that wasnt there, now I think it shoud be eliminated, but with troops dying.

If you have kids you have to clean up after them, bush and his boys some greedy kids.
 
I would say the mission in Iraq is about 75% complete, there's about 3-4 places were insurgents are putting up a struggle granted the resistance is mobile which makes it harder to eradicate but it can be done. Bush and his cronies should let the generals decide which strategy is best for the situation, it seems donny rummy is calling too many shots and bush is backing him to the hilt the real soldiers are forced to follow orders.

If we panic and do something rash it would inflame those sitting on the sidelines, since were are knee-deep in this mess its prolly best to wade our way out one step at a time. The Iraqi Constitution is a big step, the elections are next, then Iraqis should be given economic incentives followed by slow, steady troop withdrawal if we do that democracy could work.
 
The thing is democracy is majority rule, it wont work.

Think the sunnis gonna sit by like us and let their right be taken away?

What about kurds?

It dont work like that, democracy is nice on paper but the vote favors the majority, in this case it will never, ever, ever work.

Democracy is a ruse in a such a climate!!!!!!!!
 
gene cisco said:
The thing is democracy is majority rule, it wont work.

Think the sunnis gonna sit by like us and let their right be taken away?

What about kurds?

It dont work like that, democracy is nice on paper but the vote favors the majority, in this case it will never, ever, ever work.

Democracy is a ruse in a such a climate!!!!!!!!

Why not? if 80% of the country wants the process the work, how will the suniis stop it? The shites and kurds are both on board, democracy doesn't require 100% of the populations approval to work.
 
gene cisco said:
Ok, but even if we use your strategy, it still fails and doesnt justify us being there. This will still become a theocracy with an oppressed minority(sunnis) who happen to be the majority elsewhere.

Its just a mess fam.

I like peace, my withdrawing strategy is more a faked one.

We take out our troops, wait for them to fuck up, THEN come in bomb it to shit and really take it over. I am talking major damage and major casualties.

Thats not a bad idea, withdrawing the troops would get the insurgents comfortable, they would start to show their ass, then we bomb them all to hell and come back, that sounds better than what wer doing right now, if you got Marine Commanders on the ground saying they cant win we've got major fucking problems, we need to either start pounding these people into the fucking ground, or get out of Iraq if we dont have the heart to do it.
 
gene cisco said:
Ok, but even if we use your strategy, it still fails and doesnt justify us being there. This will still become a theocracy with an oppressed minority(sunnis) who happen to be the majority elsewhere.

Its just a mess fam.

I like peace, my withdrawing strategy is more a faked one.

We take out our troops, wait for them to fuck up, THEN come in bomb it to shit and really take it over. I am talking major damage and major casualties.

No matter what strategy you take with our troops still ordering them around it will be no good. We can come up with 1000 ways to fail doing that.

What Iran has learned from this is what they can learn from any history book, HOW NOT TO DO AN OCCUPATION!!!!!!

They know we could send planes and put them under forever!!!!!!!!!!!

Does us withdrawing make us look weak? Not to anybody with any military knowledge that isnt china.

So the myth of us leaving makes us weak that alot of people talk of is false.

The truth is as you said we messed up the region big time, sodam was the only secular there, which is needed in the muslim world of radicals!!!!

Man I wish any of us could make sense of this mess, all though we come up with ideas, how many will work to any extent? Seriously there is no way to straighten this mess up with our troops there. NONE.

Our occupation creates the problem.

There are smart people on this board, but we would need , SUN TZU, ALEXANDER, GHENGIS, MACHIVELLI and BENNY FRANKLIN(statesmen always help) to figure out a strategy for this fouled up shit.

Its like bush spilled cranberry juice, grease, horse shit and blood on a white persian carpet and walked through it and didnt tell us for 2 weeks, now he talking bout fix the stain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You made good counter arguments, and I believe I counter them with something else. Not to make you wrong, but for us common people to understand and even give our lame ass government some advice.

I wan't to respond to your excellent comments, but somehow tonight I can't. My heart and soul is overborne by the sheer tragedy at my own door step. My relatives and friends ... and people I just care so deeply about are suffering a suffer that I personally know all too well. Another day I'll continue our debate about circumstances far away but affecting right here at home; but tonight, this evening, tomorrow and the next, I'm really trying to help against help; hoping against hope.

This hurricane were suffering through and the damage, to love ones and property, just seems so much more important than Iraq or even Washington. its just a bad hour, a bad minute, a bad time. Too many of mine I can't account for, too many of ours I fear for. So much
 
It ain't gon happen but it would be nice if this admin. came clean about what they are up to and how much they expected it to cost in blood and treasure.

If they put everything on the table people could see that the invasion is not too far off expectations. The planners prolly expected a insurgency, they prolly expected the scheme to take between 6-8yrs and cost 3-5 thousand American lives, they had to expect about 1 trillion in invasion, occupation and reconstruction bills.

In exchange for this they would get Iraqi oil in Halliburton's hands, democracy in the middle east, 1 billion new consumers for American goods and services if capitalism spread thru the region, a end to Islamic terrorism, peace for Israel and last but not least a place in history for the admin's top people.

But they couldn't be upfront because they knew the public wouldn't want to pay that kinda bill so they decided they wouldn't let a little thing like the truth stand in their way.
 
Bruh, that is not a democracy they are doing, it is a theocracy in disquise.

They are trying their dam best to make it look like something else to get america out of there.

We are going to have an IRAN on our hands.
 
You right it won't be a democracy more like a Islamic republic the problem is the U.S. wants federalism and that is where the shiites and sunnis have problems. I can understand why the west insists on it but it isn't worth a civil war that will spill over into other countries, let the shiites have their way for now and slowly bring them aboard.
 
Insurgents Seize Key Town in Iraq
Al Qaeda in Iraq's Black Banner Flying From Rooftops

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, September 5, 2005; 4:27 PM

BAGHDAD, Sept. 5 -- Abu Musab Zarqawi's foreign-led Al Qaeda in Iraq took open control of a key western town at the Syrian border, deploying its guerrilla fighters in the streets and flying Zarqawi's black banner from rooftops, tribal leaders and other residents in the city and surrounding villages said.

A sign newly posted at the entrance of Qaim declared, "Welcome to the Islamic Kingdom of Qaim." A statement posted in mosques described Qaim as an "Islamic kingdom liberated from the occupation."


Zarqawi's fighters were killing officials and civilians seen as government-allied or anti-Islamic, witnesses, residents and others said. On Sunday, the bullet-riddled body of a woman lay in a street of Qaim. A sign left on her corpse declared, "A prostitute who was punished."

Zarqawi's fighters had shot to death nine men in public executions in the city center since the weekend, accusing the men of being spies and collaborators for U.S. forces, said Sheikh Nawaf Mahallawi, a leader of a Sunni Arab tribe, the Albu Mahal, that had battled the foreign fighters.

Dozens of families were fleeing Qaim daily, Mahallawi said.

"It would be insane to attack Zarqawi's people, even to shoot one bullet at them," Mahallawi said. "We cannot attack them. But we will not stand still if they attack us. We hope the U.S. forces end this in the coming days. We want the city to go back to its normal situation."

U.S. Marine spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Pool in Ramadi, capital of the western province that includes Qaim, said Marines in the area of Qaim had no word of any unusual activity in Qaim. Numerous Marines are stationed near the town, although Marines said they were not involved in recent ground fighting between pro-government tribal fighters and Zarqawi's group.

According to a pool report, the Iraqi government has no forces in Qaim.

Qaim, within a few miles of the Syrian border, has been a major stronghold for insurgents ferrying fighters, weapons and money from Syria into the rest of Iraq along a network of Euphrates River towns.

Many of the towns along the river have appeared to be heavily under the insurgents' domination, despite repeated Marine offenses along the river since May. Residents and Marines have described insurgents escaping ahead of the offensives, and returning when the offensives are over.

While the stepped-up U.S. offensives have been unable to drive out insurgents permanently, the U.S. attacks are credited by some with helping disrupt insurgent networks and reduce the number of car-bombings and suicide attacks in the rest of Iraq.

U.S. Marines last week launched days of air strikes against suspected insurgent safe houses in the area, in some of the heaviest known uses of air power in recent months. A Sunni Arab tribe, the Albu Mahal tribe, simultaneously vowed to drive Zarqawi's fighters from the area, with the aid of the U.S. air strikes.

.S. and Iraqi officials welcomed what they called signs that insurgents were losing support from their Sunni Arab base in the west.

By the weekend, however, Zarqawi's forces had fought back and taken control of Qaim, residents said. Accounts from the town described a rare, prolonged overt presence of the foreign fighters.


The Albu Mahal tribe as of Sunday remained in control of its village outside the city. However, a car bomb placed by Zarqawi's fighters in front of the home of a tribal leader, Sheikh Dhyad Ahmed, killed the sheikh and his son on Sunday, resident Mijbil Saied said.

It was unclear whether any Iraqi forces were in Qaim. A Zarqawi fighter said any Marines and Iraqi forces had left Qaim, with "nothing left of their crosses."

Armed insurgent fighters loyal to the Jordanian-born Zarqawi openly traveled Qaim's streets. The fighters included both Iraqis and foreigners, including Afghans The foreign-led fighters hung rooftops with Zarqawi's al-Qaeda banner of black backgrounds with a yellow sun.

Shops selling CDs, a movie theater and a women's beauty parlor were newly burned, apparently targeted by Zarqawi's group under its strict interpretation of Islamic law.

Residents said Zarqawi's fighters were killing most government workers, but had spared doctors and teachers.

Karim Hammad Karbouli, a 46-year-old resident still in Qaim, said he was waiting only for his brother to come with a pickup truck so Karbouli could load up his household and leave. Karbouli said he feared both Zarqawi's fighters and U.S. bombs.

Zarqawi's fighters had taken control of the town's hospital, one of its medical workers, Dr. Muhammed Ismail, said. The hospital's director then ordered all patients to leave, fearing the presence of Zarqawi's fighters would draw air strikes on the clinic, Ismail said.

Zarqawi fighters manned checkpoints on the four entrances to the city.

U.S. spokesman Lt. Col. Steven Boylan, in Baghdad, said that any redeployment of forces back to the United States to help with the aftermath of hurricane Katrina would not affect the U.S. ability to carry out air strikes. The Air Force announced over the weekend it was sending home 300 Air Force members whose base is in Mississippi.


© 2005 The Washington Post Company
 
ramadi knew not to let this happen. sunnis fought off insurgents to protect shites and said it was because they didnt want to be the next fallujah.

we've found the next fallujah.
 
Iraq army: 200 insurgents arrested in Tal Afar
U.S. military rescues American hostage after 10 months in captivity


Updated: 8:03 a.m. ET Sept. 8, 2005
TAL AFAR,Iraq - U.S. and Iraqi forces have encircled the insurgent stronghold of Tal Afar, and Iraqi authorities on Thursday announced the arrest of 200 suspected insurgents there — most of them foreign fighters.

The Iraqi military said 150 of those arrested Wednesday in this town near the Syrian border were Arabs from Syria, Sudan, Yemen and Jordan.

The joint forces have reported heavy battles on the outskirts of the city and several deadly bombings that have mainly killed civilians. Iraqi authorities reported most of the civilian population had fled the city, which is 260 miles north of Baghdad and about 35 miles from the Syrian border.



“Our forces arrested 150 non-Iraqi Arabs yesterday in addition to 50 Iraqi terrorists with fake documents as they were trying to flee the city with the (civilian) families,” said Iraqi army Capt. Mohammed Ahmed.

“We ordered the families to evacuate the Sunni neighborhood of Sarai, which is believed to be the main stronghold of the insurgents,” Ahmed said

Eight civilians were killed in the city Wednesday by a suicide car bomber at an Iraqi checkpoint, he said.

Tal Afar is 90 percent Turkmen, and 70 percent of them are Sunnis. After the ouster of Saddam Hussein, the United States installed a largely Shiite leadership in the city, including the mayor and much of the police force.

The Sunni majority has complained of oppression by the government and have turned to the insurgents — who are mainly Sunnis — for protection.

U.S. vehicle destroyed
Early Thursday, a militant Web site carried a videotape showing the destruction of a U.S. Bradley Fighting Vehicle in Tal Afar. The video, emblazoned with the logo of al-Qaida in Iraq, claimed the armored vehicle was struck by a roadside bomb.

The military issued no immediate response to the claim. The militant video did not say if there were casualties, although the force of the blast would suggest there had been. There were several large explosions of ordnance in the tank after the initial blast.

Twenty miles south of Baghdad, police Thursday reported finding 14 unidentified bodies near the farming town of Mahmoudiya. “All the bodies are in civilian clothes and have no identification documents,” said Lt. Adnan Abdullah of the Mahmoudiya police. They had been shot to death, he said.

Two more decomposing bodies, blindfolded and handcuffed, were found on the outskirts of Baghdad, near a sewage plant, police said.

American hostage freed after 10 months
On Wednesday, the U.S. military, acting on a tip, raided an isolated farmhouse outside Baghdad and rescued an American businessman held hostage for 10 months. The kidnappers, who had kept their captive bound and gagged.

Roy Hallums, 57, was “in good condition and is receiving medical care,” a military statement said after U.S. forces freed him and an unidentified Iraqi from the farmhouse 15 miles south of Baghdad.

Lt. Col. Steven A. Boylan, a U.S. military spokesman, said the tipster whose information led to Hallums’ release was captured just a few hours before the operation.

Hallums, formerly of Newport Beach, Calif., was kidnapped at gunpoint from his office in the Mansour district of Baghdad on Nov. 1, 2004. At the time, he was working for the Saudi Arabian Trading and Construction Co., supplying food to the Iraqi army. The kidnappers also seized a Filipino, a Nepalese and three Iraqis, but later freed them.

“Considering what he’s been through, I understand he’s in good condition,” said Hallums’ ex-wife, Susan Hallums, 53, of Corona, Calif.

The family Web site was topped with a headline: Roy IS FREE!!!!!! 9/7/05.

More than 200 foreigners have been abducted in Iraq since the war began in March 2003; more than 30 have been killed.

Deadly bombings
The rescue coincided with two deadly bombings detonated around the southern city of Basra. A roadside bomb killed four private American security agents working for the State Department Bureau of Diplomatic Security. And an Interior Ministry official said 16 people were killed and 21 were injured in a car bombing at a restaurant in a central market.

The bombing was noteworthy because attacks against Americans around Basra, Iraq’s second-largest city, are rare. The U.S. has only a minimal presence in the area. Also, Shiites, who are the dominant population in the south, have found themselves the political winners as new government structures take shape after the U.S.-led invasion.

In a statement posted on a Web site known as a clearing house of militant claims, al-Qaida in Iraq claimed responsibility for the attack.

The car bombing later Wednesday at a takeout restaurant in a central Basra market killed 16 and wounded 21, said an Interior Ministry official, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to reporters.

The felafel restaurant is in the Hayaniyah district market, a Shiite section of the city, Basra police Lt. Col. Karim al-Zaidi said. Two police vehicles and several nearby shops were destroyed in the blast.

Despite a peaceful postwar history in the south, violence has spiked in the past two months with attacks on Britons.

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
 
Gods_Favorite said:
We can still bomb the shit out of these sunni bastards without withdrawing completely, I say its time to choose sides. The reason this is all dragging out so long is because we want to make all the Iraqis happy, which is not going to work, the Sunnis are so used to being in charge they refuse to come to an agreement with the Kurds and Shites, I say we pull back, bomb the shit out of this godforsaken Sunni triangle, arm the Shites and Kurds, and let them clean house. :mad:


So we just bomd the shit out of people who disagre with our politics and kill them.Let the Kurds and Shites have their way with them,sounds like what the White folks who took over this country and brought over African slaves did to this country. :(
 
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