Malcolm X is overrated

[Black A. Camus]

interesting argument Camus - Like most that read the title ,I was instantly upset ,outraged .offended .....But you make some good points - esp. ...

"It’s tactically imprudent for a minority to advocate violence until it exhausts all other means of resistance, unless the minority receives military foreign aide. Whenever Black people talk about revolution it is important to realize that we have never comprised more than 13% of America’s population (look at census reports). Within that 13% maybe 3, or 4, percent supported the Nation of Islam’s retaliatory violence approach. Moreover, Black people are non-indigenous Americans in the sense that we are not white, and cannot covertly blend into America’s populace. Hence, had Black retaliatory violence become a problem in America, its government would undoubtedly have rounded Blacks up into camps, just like it did to Japanese Americans during WWII. All of this is why retaliatory violence by Black Americans is imprudent. "


well stated argument

Thank you. It's unfortunate but BGOL is basically a market place: to get people to purchase/read my opinion I have to make up an outrageous title. Hopefully, people will do what you did, be incensed enough to read what I wrote; and then realize what I'm trying to say.

Hopefully it's clear that I respect Malcolm X, and feel indebted to him for all that he did for us. My only point is that we owe too much of what we have to too many other people to state that Malcolm should garnish the most respect.

 

[Dert Bagg]

He was absolutely Great.
Don't know wtf some of y'all are smokin....
(Whas next??...a 'Martin Luther King was a Pussy' post?)

 

[HighTech]

well stated argument

Not really because he misleadingly overstates it as if Malcolm only preached violence. He conveintly leaves out the fact Malcolm only made it a option to the evil white oppressor. He (unlike the spineless ones before him) made it clear to the white oppressor who was happy for things to stay the same, that black people were prepared to die for what was theirs i.e. TOTAL freedom, TOTAL eqaulity and TOTAL respect! Thats why i say he was so UNamerikkan because too many Black amerikkkans are too passive in the face of blatant racial discrimination.
Your intentionally jailed disproportionately (you do nothing), you have drugs (CRACK) purposely put in your communities (you do nothing), you get your votes thrown away in general elections like there nothing when it's convenient (you do nothing) and katrina (you do nothing), SMH.

If more of you let it be known you WON'T accept blatant racist discrimintion and your prepared to do whatever to free yourself from it maybe you wouldn't continuously get slapped in the face.

Another great Malcolm quote: ''I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees''

Here is why Brother Malcolm was so UNamerikkkan and so different to most Black amerikkkans, it's a shame: http://youtube.com/watch?v=V1lxQv9MRac

 

[Laughing Man]

A lot of people tend to overrate Malcolm X. In a thread about his Birthday, someone called him the greatest Black American ever. However, he died before he had a chance to be great. Moreover, he died before he could undo all of the harm that he did to Black America. He harmed scores of Black Americans by converting them to a false religion. Moreover, he harmed Black Americans by advocating retaliatory violence against whites.

The Nation of Islam (N.O.I.) is a false religion. Any religion that advocates hatred, even if it’s hate against prejudiced white people, is a false religion. Malcolm X realized and admitted this when he converted to true Islam, after his journey to the Middle East. Malcolm X died before he could spread the truth to all the souls he tainted with false religion.

Most Black Americans revere Malcolm X because of the revolutionary message he spread while he was a member of the Nation of Islam. He spread his message of retaliatory violence during America’s shameful and pitiful Jim Crow era. It is laudably significant that Malcolm X was a figurehead of a segment of Black Americans who organized for the purpose of violently resisting the violence perpetuated on them. It is significant, but at the same time such violence is tactically imprudent.

It’s tactically imprudent for a minority to advocate violence until it exhausts all other means of resistance, unless the minority receives military foreign aide. Whenever Black people talk about revolution it is important to realize that we have never comprised more than 13% of America’s population (look at census reports). Within that 13% maybe 3, or 4, percent supported the Nation of Islam’s retaliatory violence approach. Moreover, Black people are non-indigenous Americans in the sense that we are not white, and cannot covertly blend into America’s populace. Hence, had Black retaliatory violence become a problem in America, its government would undoubtedly have rounded Blacks up into camps, just like it did to Japanese Americans during WWII. All of this is why retaliatory violence by Black Americans is imprudent.

Whether or not he would have agreed with this rationale against retaliatory violence, he did not advocate once he converted to True Islam. Had he had the chance to thoroughly spread the truth once he made this reformation, I believe that he would have been one of the greatest, not only Black Americans, but one of the greatest Americans period. Unfortunately, he died before he could achieve true greatness. That’s why I believe he’s overrated.

​

 

[Mo Pizorn]

killyoself.mov - 0.42MB

Fe Fi Fo fed, I smell a white boy on this thread.

 

[Black A. Camus]

Not really because he misleadingly overstates it as if Malcolm only preached violence. He conveintly leaves out Malcolm only made it a option to the evil white oppressor. He (unlike the spineless ones before him) made it clear to the white oppressor who was happy for things to stay the same, that black people were prepared to die for what was theirs i.e. TOTAL freedom, TOTAL eqaulity and TOTAL respect! Thats why i say he was so UNamerikkan because too many Black amerikkkans are too passive in the face of blatant racial discrimination.
Your intentionally jailed disproportionately (you do nothing), you have drugs (CRACK) purposely put in your communities (you do nothing), you get your votes thrown away in general elections like there nothing when it's convenient (you do nothing) and katrina (you do nothing), SMH.

If more of you let it be known you WON'T accept blatant racist discrimintion and your prepared to do whatever to free yourself from it maybe you wouldn't continuously get slapped in the face.

Another great Malcolm quote: ''I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees''

Here is why Brother Malcolm was so UNamerikkkan and so different to most Black amerikkkans, it's a shame: http://youtube.com/watch?v=V1lxQv9MRac

You and I have a disconnect. By that I mean that intellectually you and I are at different stages of life. I suspect it has to do with our ages. I don’t presume that I'm more intellectual than you, nor do I presume that you are more intellectual than I.

I'm skeptical of our ability to expend the energy necessary to relate to one another. I foresaw that when I read your thread that compelled me to make this one. Ultimately I knew that we were going to end up agreeing to disagree. Honestly, that's the only reason why I ignored you, until now.

I know that Malcolm X did not only preach violence. But he did preach violence. "To be non-violent in the face of violence is a crime," is a notable Malcolm X quote. Unfortunately, violence is what Malcolm is most known for.

As I've already said, the plausibility of organized violence by Black people back then was untenable. It was untenable because we were a fragmented minority, who had neither the military arms, or support from other nations, to successfully use violence as a means of achieving any end.

To elaborate, had violence by Blacks upon white America became serious, America--which was one of two Superpowers at that time, could have invoked its military to annihilate Black America, and no other country Earth would have stopped it.

Think about that for just one moment. The Cold War was at one of its highest peaks during that time. Do you think that the Soviet Union--the only other Superpower then, would risk Nuclear War and the extinction of its population over the plight of Black Americans?

So what would violence as advocated by Malcolm X, and the segment of Black America he represented, have achieved? America's government would have decimated Blacks and locked-up those remaining into concentration camps. Why risk this before utilizing all other means of organized resistance?

We only comprised 13% of the population. Why, then, should we alienate ourselves from those white Americans who agreed that we were human; and, as such, deserved rights equal to those of the majority? In this thread people said that Malcolm was a good leader.

On a fundamental level, doesn't good leadership require utilizing every means necessary to achieve the goals of those whom you lead? Before Malcolm converted to true Islam he didn't utilize the white people who altruistically felt that Black people deserved equal rights. Yet, people claim he was a good leader during the time frame in which he didn’t utilize the white people who altruistically supported him.

I believe that it was only after Malcolm converted to true Islam he realized this, and became a great leader. Once he converted to true Islam he realized that the struggle for Black equality in America fell upon every American's shoulders. In his autobiography he mentions a white college girl who sincerely wanted to join the struggle for Black equality. He initially said she couldn't help. But once he apostatized, he basically said he regretted that he didn't enlist her aid.

I agree that Malcolm X did not only preach violence. But my point is that violence was his appeal. As a Black man who advoacated violence, he was novel; and thus, known for openly preaching violence in response to violence by white America. But I don't applaud him for that because, as I've tried to show, violence by Black Americans against white Americans during that point in history was untenable. Malcolm X did acquire the Truth--which in and of itself has mass appeal, once he converted to True Islam. Yet, after he converted to true Islam he died before he could spread it.

 

[Black A. Camus]

​

That Rick James shit is hilarious. Fuck you though! Even if it takes a year, I'm going to write your name down and viciously clown one of your threads when you least expect it. Your moms and your aunties are all fair game. Remember my name.
"I'm [the] lyrical glide master, and if you ask what's my secret I'll say Shasta... It turns into formaldehyde faster" The Villian, a.k.a., M.C. Doom, all outta ale.

 

[Solar7]

What makes the man Great, even while long gone, is the fact that he was a Man. Period. He wasn't some little un-interesting Negro that accepted what was handed to him. Sure his voice may have seemed violent to those who had never been beaten...but to those who had! Imagine how his message sounded to them!? He will never be over rated because more than half of our children don't know who he is, or anything about struggle. Thats your opinion, and I respect it, but two events changed my life. Reading and listening to what he said, and reading "Makes Me Wanna Holler"... Sometimes, trying to change a brothers view of himself and how he moves through the world is like trying to change the flow of a river with a shovel and a stick of gum...shit aint happening. I can only wish I had a chance to participate like my grandfather. Anyway, he did achieve greatness, after Mecca. His direction and view was changed...read up...but nevermind my ramblings. If you have sons, teach them to be weak and watch the result.

 

[Black A. Camus]

What makes the man Great, even while long gone, is the fact that he was a Man. Period. He wasn't some little un-interesting Negro that accepted what was handed to him. Sure his voice may have seemed violent to those who had never been beaten...but to those who had! Imagine how his message sounded to them!? He will never be over rated because more than half of our children don't know who he is, or anything about struggle. Thats your opinion, and I respect it, but two events changed my life. Reading and listening to what he said, and reading "Makes Me Wanna Holler"... Sometimes, trying to change a brothers view of himself and how he moves through the world is like trying to change the flow of a river with a shovel and a stick of gum...shit aint happening. I can only wish I had a chance to participate like my grandfather. Anyway, he did achieve greatness, after Mecca. His direction and view was changed...read up...but nevermind my ramblings. If you have sons, teach them to be weak and watch the result.

I agree. However, was he the greatest Black American ever? That's the impetus behind this post. If you say he was then you and I don't agree. If you can think of atleast one other Black American who deserves at least as much praise as him than you and I have no beef.

 

[APOPHIS]

Good thread. It's very well written, coherent, and informative.
But, I have to disagree with you.
I will explain my position as to why later on. Gotta check out the booty threads first!

 

[Mo Pizorn]

Ask yourself why are you trying to tear down someone who has garnered so much respect from so many people. There is absolutely NO argiuement you can present that will make any black people lose respect for Malcolm. Instead, why not ask yourself what can I do to be greater than Malcolm was? Then work on a plan and start doing it. Even if you never accomplish it, you can help a lot of people along the way.
Now get the FUCK outta here.

 

[Black A. Camus]

Ask yourself why are you trying to tear down someone who has garnered so much respect from so many people. There is absolutely NO argiuement you can present that will make any black people lose respect for Malcolm. Instead, why not ask yourself what can I do to be greater than Malcolm was? Then work on a plan and start doing it. Even if you never accomplish it, you can help a lot of people along the way.
Now get the FUCK outta here.

That’s just it; I'm not trying to get people to lose respect for Malcolm X. I'm trying to get people to respect all the other less known Black intellectuals who contributed to our plight. Malcolm X was great, but he wasn’t the greatest.

Richard Wright was a genius, and one of my most favorite Black intellectuals. As far as I’m concerned, he was in the top 1 percent of the talented tenth, as Dubois would say. Although people know him best by his work Native Son, I would urge people to read The Outsider.

America never experienced a Black nihilist movement. If America had, Wright's the The Outsider would have personified it. I get mentally wet when I think about how America would now be if Blacks were nihilists instead of Christians. The thought of cosmopolitan Black intellectuals untainted by religion is simply too much to discuss here.

Anyway, the fact that many Black people praise Malcolm X more than Wright, Dubois, Davis, hooks, Cornell West, etc., is why I made this thread. Malcolm is important. But he is no more important than other Black American intellectuals who lived before and after him.

 

[Cruise]

Anyway, the fact that many Black people praise Malcolm X more than Wright, Dubois, Davis, hooks, Cornell West, etc., is why I made this thread. Malcolm is important. But he is no more important than other Black American intellectuals who lived before and after him.

I think there's a big difference between an intellectual and a popular leader.

How many intellectuals are MARTYRs?

Malcolm X posed the threat of organized, armed, and violent resistance to oppressive honky rule.

This was at a time when Indians, Africans, South Americans were all talking about independence and revolution.

It scared the S*** out of the honkies. They though the country might enter another civil war if the brothers came together to any degree.

I think Malcolm changed his tune when he saw how disorganized and petty the Nation of Islam was.

Malcolm probably thought it was the beginning of a true Nation. But, Elijah cured him of any such misunderstanding.

Of course, Malcolm's own people (maybe with honkey help in the form of the FBI) assasinated him.

You don't need to be in the majority to be an effective force (just ask the Jews, the IRA, al Qaeda, etc.). You just need dedicated people who are willing to give their lives for the cause.

Most brothers would rather die for a honky than for their own people.

Malcolm X has to be one of the greatest. He paid the ultimate price.

 

[Harlem_Gangsta]

You Need To Be Banned!!! And You Need To Stfu About Malcolm X, Let Him Rest In Peace And Be Remembered For All That He Has Done For Blacks In America!!!!!!

 

[Sade]

Eloquent but you calling him overrated is just your opinion. There is NOTHING overrated about an African American willing to fight white oppression. In fact, people like that TODAY are at a premium because we are truly facing a crossroads to self genocide

yup...

 

[Mo Pizorn]

That’s just it; I'm not trying to get people to lose respect for Malcolm X. I'm trying to get people to respect all the other less known Black intellectuals who contributed to our plight. Malcolm X was great, but he wasn’t the greatest.

Richard Wright was a genius, and one of my most favorite Black intellectuals. As far as I’m concerned, he was in the top 1 percent of the talented tenth, as Dubois would say. Although people know him best by his work Native Son, I would urge people to read The Outsider.

America never experienced a Black nihilist movement. If America had, Wright's the The Outsider would have personified it. I get mentally wet when I think about how America would now be if Blacks were nihilists instead of Christians. The thought of cosmopolitan Black intellectuals untainted by religion is simply too much to discuss here.

Anyway, the fact that many Black people praise Malcolm X more than Wright, Dubois, Davis, hooks, Cornell West, etc., is why I made this thread. Malcolm is important. But he is no more important than other Black American intellectuals who lived before and after him.

YOu start off on the wrong path by trying to accomplish that. Your approach makes people immediately turn a deaf ear to you.


And I repeat:

Instead, why not ask yourself what can I do to be greater than Malcolm was? Then work on a plan and start doing it. Even if you never accomplish it, you can help a lot of people along the way.
Now get the FUCK outta here.

 

[Black A. Camus]

YOu start off on the wrong path by trying to accomplish that. Your approach makes people immediately turn a deaf ear to you.


And I repeat:

Instead, why not ask yourself what can I do to be greater than Malcolm was? Then work on a plan and start doing it. Even if you never accomplish it, you can help a lot of people along the way.
Now get the FUCK outta here.

Respect. I realize that I have written a lot in this thread. And I don't expect everyone to read everything that I wrote, because if someone else made such a thread I wouldn't all of what s/he wrote either. Therefore, my only response to this is what I already wrote....

Originally Posted by Kazoo
interesting argument Camus - Like most that read the title ,I was instantly upset ,outraged .offended .....But you make some good points - esp. ...

"It’s tactically imprudent for a minority to... well stated argument

Originally Posted by Black A. Camus

Thank you. It's unfortunate but BGOL is basically a market place: to get people to purchase/read my opinion I have to make up an outrageous title. Hopefully, people will do what you did, be incensed enough to read what I wrote; and then realize what I'm trying to say.

Hopefully it's clear that I respect Malcolm X, and feel indebted to him for all that he did for us. My only point is that we owe too much of what we have to too many other people to state that Malcolm should garnish the most respect.

Hence, despite how audicious the title of this thread is, I hope that some rationale people can agree with my point. If so, then, I feel as if I accomplished something.

 

[audio syndicate]

this thread makes me itch...

i kind of used to think the same thing about MLK (the being overrated part) until an old head smacked me upside the head and put things into perspective for me...

it wasn't about speeches..it wasn't about who they were affiliated with...false religions..adultery..or anything else...

what it IS about is...the ability of someone to take a stand...to bring about thought...to be a catalyst for change...a visible representation of a movement at their own personal cost..

malcolm realized he needed to be a catalyst for change...he needed to be a representation of the common thoughts and desires of african americans at the time. he sacrificed his personal safety, his privacy, his ability to do anything but be that catalyst for change. it is an extreme undertaking....sure, other people spoke of change in text...but how many people were willing to be that physical representation..make that sacrifice?

THAT is why we celebrate brother malcolm..THAT is why we celebrate brother martin....

by the way..a couple of quick points/considerations:

1. how are we 13% of the country? because the census says so? where are all the white people? out in the plains? cause just about everywhere i go, i see a sea of color.

2. the nation of islam is NOT a religion...its never even claimed to be...ISLAM is the religion of n.o.i. get your facts straight.

3. be a catalyst for change instead of a critic of those who are..it'll give you a better understanding of what it takes to be remembered like he is

 

[dux]

As I've already said, the plausibility of organized violence by Black people back then was untenable. It was untenable because we were a fragmented minority, who had neither the military arms, or support from other nations, to successfully use violence as a means of achieving any end.

To elaborate, had violence by Blacks upon white America became serious, America--which was one of two Superpowers at that time, could have invoked its military to annihilate Black America, and no other country Earth would have stopped it.

Think about that for just one moment. The Cold War was at one of its highest peaks during that time. Do you think that the Soviet Union--the only other Superpower then, would risk Nuclear War and the extinction of its population over the plight of Black Americans?

So what would violence as advocated by Malcolm X, and the segment of Black America he represented, have achieved? America's government would have decimated Blacks and locked-up those remaining into concentration camps. Why risk this before utilizing all other means of organized resistance?

.

I dont know about all that but look at what happen with toussaint, the marroons , and every slave that thought to fight back against slavery , true they were facing overwhelming odds, the white man had the weapons and probably the numbers but you can only hold people down for so long
becuase you can break his bones and even kill him but you carnt break his spirit . when a man is ready to die to get what he wants then that's a weapon greater than any army you can muster...perhaps that's what brother malcolm realized
you dont have to look very far for examples...why you think the war in Irag is not over

 

[dux]

As I've already said, the plausibility of organized violence by Black people back then was untenable. It was untenable because we were a fragmented minority, who had neither the military arms, or support from other nations, to successfully use violence as a means of achieving any end.

To elaborate, had violence by Blacks upon white America became serious, America--which was one of two Superpowers at that time, could have invoked its military to annihilate Black America, and no other country Earth would have stopped it.

Think about that for just one moment. The Cold War was at one of its highest peaks during that time. Do you think that the Soviet Union--the only other Superpower then, would risk Nuclear War and the extinction of its population over the plight of Black Americans?

So what would violence as advocated by Malcolm X, and the segment of Black America he represented, have achieved? America's government would have decimated Blacks and locked-up those remaining into concentration camps. Why risk this before utilizing all other means of organized resistance?

.

I dont know about all that but look at what happen with toussaint, the marroons , and every slave that thought to fight back against slavery , true they were facing overwhelming odds, the white man had the weapons and probably the numbers but you can only hold people down for so long
becuase you can break his bones and even kill him but you carnt break his spirit . when a man is ready to die to get what he wants then that's a weapon greater than any army you can muster...perhaps that's what brother malcolm realized
you dont have to look very far for examples...why you think the war in Irag is not over

 

[mrjosecuervo]

Malcolm X lives in me.

Long live Malcolm X

 

[cskii]

Your Dumb Ass Is Ready To Represent Colored People On Fox News!

 

[BrklynBorn]

That’s just it; I'm not trying to get people to lose respect for Malcolm X. I'm trying to get people to respect all the other less known Black intellectuals who contributed to our plight. Malcolm X was great, but he wasn’t the greatest.

Richard Wright was a genius, and one of my most favorite Black intellectuals. As far as I’m concerned, he was in the top 1 percent of the talented tenth, as Dubois would say. Although people know him best by his work Native Son, I would urge people to read The Outsider.

America never experienced a Black nihilist movement. If America had, Wright's the The Outsider would have personified it. I get mentally wet when I think about how America would now be if Blacks were nihilists instead of Christians. The thought of cosmopolitan Black intellectuals untainted by religion is simply too much to discuss here.

Anyway, the fact that many Black people praise Malcolm X more than Wright, Dubois, Davis, hooks, Cornell West, etc., is why I made this thread. Malcolm is important. But he is no more important than other Black American intellectuals who lived before and after him.

Are you for real Bell Hooks what has she done for black people, a lesbian feminist. I’ll give you a pass on Angela Davis and Dubois yet even he was disappointed with the so called talent tenth in his later years. Richard Wright makes you mentally wet what the fuck is that? I read native son in high school, it was a good book, maybe I’ll read it again but what organizations did he build, maybe you can enlighten me? What really made me respond to this post was the mention of Cornell West as a black intellectual. You must be kidding, this Negro ain’t shit. Just because Ivy League Colleges gives these negros jobs don’t make them intellectual. He’s is an accommodating fake Christian preacher that a nihilist would not approve of. I’m sorry but what is this nihilism stuff, this really makes you suspect.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ni•hil•ism


1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
3. total and absolute destructiveness, esp. toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler's last years.
4. Philosophy.
a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth.
b. nothingness or nonexistence.
5. (sometimes initial capital letter) the principles of a Russian revolutionary group, active in the latter half of the 19th century, holding that existing social and political institutions must be destroyed in order to clear the way for a new state of society and employing extreme measures, including terrorism and assassination.
6. annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, esp. as an aspect of mystical experience.


.

 

[m@nnish]

Malcolm X was great, but he wasn’t the greatest.

Richard Wright was a genius, and one of my most favorite Black intellectuals.

If you read the how the Malcolm X threadstarter began his comments about Malcolm being the greatest, he followed that by (IMO).

Just like its your opinion about Richard Wright.

Why would you try to tear down this man's legacy because you dont agree with someones opinion.

 

[Donmega]

Whether or not he would have agreed with this rationale against retaliatory violence, he did not advocate once he converted to True Islam.

Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about. Malcolm's strongest statements regarding the need for Violence to defend your life and property come after he made the conversion to "true" islam -not before.

It is ok for you to not like Malcolm. But much of what you wrote is simply wrong and contains many factual errors.

 

[water]

VIOLENCE:

[As] long as the white man sent you to Korea, you bled. He sent you to Germany, you bled. He sent you to the South Pacific to fight the Japanese, you bled. You bleed for white people. But when it comes time to seeing your own churches being bombed and little black girls be murdered, you haven't got no blood. You bleed when the white man says bleed; you bite when the white man says bite; and you bark when the white man says bark. I hate to say this about us, but it's true. How are you going to be nonviolent in Mississippi, as violent as you were in Korea? How can you justify being nonviolent in Mississippi and Alabama, when your churches are being bombed, and your little girls are being murdered, and at the same time you're going to violent with Hitler, and Tojo, and somebody else that you don't even know?

If violence is wrong in America, violence is wrong abroad. If it's wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it's wrong for America to draft us and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country.



MALCOLM X: White People Been Buying Rifles All Their Lives

"Last but not least, I must say this concerning the great controversy over rifles and shotguns. The only thing I've ever said is that in areas where the government has proven itself either unwilling or unable to defend the lives and the property of Negroes, it's time for Negroes to defend themselves. Article number two of the Constitutional amendments provides you and me the right to own a rifle or a shotgun. It is constitutionally legal to own a shotgun or a rifle. This doesn't mean you're going to get a rifle and form battalions and go out looking for white folks, although you'd be within your rights - I mean, you'd be justified; but that would be illegal and we don't do anything illegal. If the white man doesn't want the black man buying rifles and shotguns, then let the government do its job."



RELIGION:


The Ballot or the Bullet

I’m a Muslim minister. The same as they are Christian Ministers, I’m a Muslim minister. And I don’t believe in fighting today in any one front, but on all fronts. In fact, I’m a "Black Nationalist Freedom Fighter." Islam is my religion, but I believe my religion is my personal business. It governs my personal life, my personal morals. And my religious philosophy is personal between me and the God in whom I believe; just as the religious philosophy of these others is between them and the God in whom they believe.

And this is best this way. Were we to come out here discussing religion, we’d have too many differences from the outstart and we could never get together.

You and I -- As I say, if we bring up religion we’ll have differences; we’ll have arguments; and we’ll never be able to get together. But if we keep our religion at home, keep our religion in the closet, keep our religion between ourselves and our God, but when we come out here, we have a fight that’s common to all of us against a [sic] enemy who is common to all of us.


POLITICS:

The political philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that the black man should control the politics and the politicians in his own community. The -- The time -- The time when white people can come in our community and get us to vote for them so that they can be our political leaders and tell us what to do and what not to do is long gone. By the same token, the time when that same white man, knowing that your eyes are too far open, can send another negro into the community and get you and me to support him so he can use him to lead us astray -- those days are long gone too.

The political philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that if you and I are going to live in a Black community -- and that’s where we’re going to live, 'cause as soon as you move into one of their -- soon as you move out of the Black community into their community, it’s mixed for a period of time, but they’re gone and you’re right there all by yourself again.

We must -- We must understand the politics of our community and we must know what politics is supposed to produce. We must know what part politics play in our lives. And until we become politically mature we will always be mislead, lead astray, or deceived or maneuvered into supporting someone politically who doesn’t have the good of our community at heart.

So the political philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that we will have to carry on a program, a political program, of re-education to open our people's eyes, make us become more politically conscious, politically mature, and then we will -- whenever we get ready to cast our ballot, that ballot will be -- will be cast for a man of the community who has the good of the community of heart.



ECONOMICS:

The economic philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that we should own and operate and control the economy of our community.

You would never -- You can’t open up a black store in a white community. White men won’t even patronize you. And he’s not wrong. He’s got sense enough to look out for himself. It's you who don’t have sense enough to look out for yourself. The white man -- The white man is too intelligent to let someone else come and gain control of the economy of his community. But you will let anybody come in and control the economy of your community, control the housing, control the education, control the jobs, control the businesses, under the pretext that you want to integrate. No, you're outta your mind.


http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/malcolmxballotorbullet.htm

(contains thte text & audio of this speech)


Any questions???????? "Black" Camus..........

 

[flipflop]

.......I was there when all of this occurred....you could not be more wrong!....Malcolm X and Louis Farrakhan and The Nation Of Islam and the Black Pather Party and Martin Luther King all gave Black people hope. I was Part of the Nation Of Islam back then and I have to tell you that the threat of violence is and was the key to peace with violent aggressor such as the American white man.

.....You could see it on their whites faces that if they even thought you were of a group like that...there would be no spitting or hitting or N word stuff cuz they were scared for their safety!....I have been called the N word and I have been to to Bensonhurst NY first hand to see what violence begets.....there is a big difference between an enemy with whooped ass than an enemy who is spitting on you and letting the dogs out on you.....

I am a Christian now...but my most powerful memory in life was being part of the Nation of Islam...having the force of thousands of brothers behind you whether they were physically there at the time or not...

...they always stood strong...and they appeared strong....you never knew what they were capable of...you just knew that the real reason that the country went with Martin Luther King (the peaceful side of the equation) was because on the other side lays Malcolm and Farrakhan an Black Panthers...and numerous other groups that weren't afraid to shed blood in case Martin's way didn't work out!

this has been too long already...just wanted to give you the side of someone who was there....

 

[Sub0]

Any questions???????? "Black" Camus..........

Right.

Probably some white kid testing his ideas on the board. Or, he has a position paper or something due for which we've provided "free" critiques.

It's better to explicitly state your aims "Black" Camus than to engage us in fruitless debate.

 

[Black A. Camus]

VIOLENCE:

[As] long as the white man sent you to Korea, you bled. He sent you to Germany, you bled. He sent you to the South Pacific to fight the Japanese, you bled. You bleed for white people. But when it comes time to seeing your own churches being bombed and little black girls be murdered, you haven't got no blood. You bleed when the white man says bleed; you bite when the white man says bite; and you bark when the white man says bark. I hate to say this about us, but it's true. How are you going to be nonviolent in Mississippi, as violent as you were in Korea? How can you justify being nonviolent in Mississippi and Alabama, when your churches are being bombed, and your little girls are being murdered, and at the same time you're going to violent with Hitler, and Tojo, and somebody else that you don't even know?

If violence is wrong in America, violence is wrong abroad. If it's wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it's wrong for America to draft us and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country.



MALCOLM X: White People Been Buying Rifles All Their Lives

"Last but not least, I must say this concerning the great controversy over rifles and shotguns. The only thing I've ever said is that in areas where the government has proven itself either unwilling or unable to defend the lives and the property of Negroes, it's time for Negroes to defend themselves. Article number two of the Constitutional amendments provides you and me the right to own a rifle or a shotgun. It is constitutionally legal to own a shotgun or a rifle. This doesn't mean you're going to get a rifle and form battalions and go out looking for white folks, although you'd be within your rights - I mean, you'd be justified; but that would be illegal and we don't do anything illegal. If the white man doesn't want the black man buying rifles and shotguns, then let the government do its job."



RELIGION:

Yes, if you don't mind, as a matter of fact I do have a few questions and statments to make. You're quoting something in reply; yet, you don't give it's source.

The Ballot or the Bullet

I’m a Muslim minister. The same as they are Christian Ministers, I’m a Muslim minister. And I don’t believe in fighting today in any one front, but on all fronts. In fact, I’m a "Black Nationalist Freedom Fighter." Islam is my religion, but I believe my religion is my personal business. It governs my personal life, my personal morals. And my religious philosophy is personal between me and the God in whom I believe; just as the religious philosophy of these others is between them and the God in whom they believe.

And this is best this way. Were we to come out here discussing religion, we’d have too many differences from the outstart and we could never get together.

You and I -- As I say, if we bring up religion we’ll have differences; we’ll have arguments; and we’ll never be able to get together. But if we keep our religion at home, keep our religion in the closet, keep our religion between ourselves and our God, but when we come out here, we have a fight that’s common to all of us against a [sic] enemy who is common to all of us.


POLITICS:

The political philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that the black man should control the politics and the politicians in his own community. The -- The time -- The time when white people can come in our community and get us to vote for them so that they can be our political leaders and tell us what to do and what not to do is long gone. By the same token, the time when that same white man, knowing that your eyes are too far open, can send another negro into the community and get you and me to support him so he can use him to lead us astray -- those days are long gone too.

The political philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that if you and I are going to live in a Black community -- and that’s where we’re going to live, 'cause as soon as you move into one of their -- soon as you move out of the Black community into their community, it’s mixed for a period of time, but they’re gone and you’re right there all by yourself again.

We must -- We must understand the politics of our community and we must know what politics is supposed to produce. We must know what part politics play in our lives. And until we become politically mature we will always be mislead, lead astray, or deceived or maneuvered into supporting someone politically who doesn’t have the good of our community at heart.

So the political philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that we will have to carry on a program, a political program, of re-education to open our people's eyes, make us become more politically conscious, politically mature, and then we will -- whenever we get ready to cast our ballot, that ballot will be -- will be cast for a man of the community who has the good of the community of heart.



ECONOMICS:

The economic philosophy of Black Nationalism only means that we should own and operate and control the economy of our community.

You would never -- You can’t open up a black store in a white community. White men won’t even patronize you. And he’s not wrong. He’s got sense enough to look out for himself. It's you who don’t have sense enough to look out for yourself. The white man -- The white man is too intelligent to let someone else come and gain control of the economy of his community. But you will let anybody come in and control the economy of your community, control the housing, control the education, control the jobs, control the businesses, under the pretext that you want to integrate. No, you're outta your mind.


http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/malcolmxballotorbullet.htm

(contains thte text & audio of this speech)


Any questions???????? "Black" Camus..........

If you don't mind I have just one question, and a few statements to make. That question is what was your purpose for quoting this in response to anything I've written? That is to say, how is this relevant to this thread? Do you mean to imply that this contradicts anything I've said about him? If that was your intent, precisely where is the contradiction? All you've done, here, is quote somebody else for no apparent reason.

Moreover, the quote itself is suspect because it's impossible to authenticate it: i.e., the article doesn't name the location or date where Malcolm allegedly made this speech. That it takes place in 1964 is especially suspect, that was the year he traveled to Mecca. Did he make this speech before or after he went there?

If you've ever passed a college level English course I promise that you only got a passing grade because your professor did not believe in flunking students.

 

[Donmega]

Moreover, the quote itself is suspect because it's impossible to authenticate it: i.e., the article doesn't name the location or date where Malcolm allegedly made this speech. That it takes place in 1964 is especially suspect, that was the year he traveled to Mecca. Did he make this speech before or after he went there?

If you've ever passed a college level English course I promise that you only got a passing grade because your professor did not believe in flunking students.

If you really cared about any of this stuff it would have taken you 2 seconds to either click the link and find out where and when the speech was given, or to just do a search for Malcolm X "Ballot or Bullet" to get an idea of when he was giving that speech (it was given on more than one occassion). It would also take maybe another 2 seconds to figure out when he went to Mecca...if you really cared.

Instead you just want to argue -not to educate yourself.

And just for the record, the speech shows something that I pointed out in my original post in this thread. Malcolm's views of the need for Violence in defense of one's life and property were strongest after he left the NOI.

 

[Black A. Camus]

If you really cared about any of this stuff it would have taken you 2 seconds to either click the link and find out where and when the speech was given, or to just do a search for Malcolm X "Ballot or Bullet" to get an idea of when he was giving that speech (it was given on more than one occassion). It would also take maybe another 2 seconds to figure out when he went to Mecca...if you really cared.

Instead you just want to argue -not to educate yourself.

And just for the record, the speech shows something that I pointed out in my original post in this thread. Malcolm's views of the need for Violence in defense of one's life and property were strongest after he left the NOI.

I honestly did click the link, and browse the article. They posted the date at the top of the speech instead of at the end of it, where most authors usually give their references. I overlooked that, my bad.

I can only guess, because you've still only implied that, the purpose of this article is to show that I misstated Malcolm's views after his trip to Mecca, and that I also misstated his views on retaliatory violence. Yet, this article only strengthens my overall argument. That argument being that retaliatory violence by a minority is imprudent, and it is poor leadership to advocate an approach that does not advance the ends of those of whom you lead.

Retaliatory violence may seem just; however, it is imprudent if it accomplishes nothing and situates you further from your goals once you commit it. Black Americans would have accomplished nothing by trying to counter white racism with violence during the days of Malcolm X. They were a small conspicuous minority who did not have the resources to fight America’s military. Through the use of weapons and the expenditure of mass amounts of resources America's military would easily have quelled Black violence. Moreover, after it did quell Black violence, it would have further subjugated Blacks to keep 'order.'

Foreseeing this, how useful is a leader who chooses a deleterious path before exploring all others. Pragmatism is a requisite to good leadership. Malcolm X's message of retaliatory violence was sensationalist, not pragmatic. Because of the foreseeable back-lash, had Malcolm's retaliatory violence approach come to fruition it would have failed and likely made Blacks in America far worse off today.

 

[water]

I honestly did click the link, and browse the article. They posted the date at the top of the speech instead of at the end of it, where most authors usually give their references. I overlooked that, my bad.

I can only guess, because you've still only implied that, the purpose of this article is to show that I misstated Malcolm's views after his trip to Mecca, and that I also misstated his views on retaliatory violence. Yet, this article only strengthens my overall argument. That argument being that retaliatory violence by a minority is imprudent, and it is poor leadership to advocate an approach that does not advance the ends of those of whom you lead.

Retaliatory violence may seem just; however, it is imprudent if it accomplishes nothing and situates you further from your goals once you commit it. Black Americans would have accomplished nothing by trying to counter white racism with violence during the days of Malcolm X. They were a small conspicuous minority who did not have the resources to fight America’s military. Through the use of weapons and the expenditure of mass amounts of resources America's military would easily have quelled Black violence. Moreover, after it did quell Black violence, it would have further subjugated Blacks to keep 'order.'

Foreseeing this, how useful is a leader who chooses a deleterious path before exploring all others. Pragmatism is a requisite to good leadership. Malcolm X's message of retaliatory violence was sensationalist, not pragmatic. Because of the foreseeable back-lash, had Malcolm's retaliatory violence approach come to fruition Blacks in America would be worse off today

It was January 1965, he gave this speech entitled "Prospects for Freedom."


MALCOLM X:

When this country here was first being founded, there were 13 colonies. The whites were colonized. They were fed up with this taxation without representation. So some of them stood up and said, liberty or death.

I went to a white school over here in Mason, Michigan. The white man made the mistake of letting me read his history books. He made the mistake of teaching me that Patrick Henry was a patriot and George Washington – wasn’t nothing non-violent about old Pat or George Washington.

Liberty or death was what brought about the freedom of whites in this country from the English. They didn't care about the odds.

Why, they faced the wrath of the entire British Empire. And in those days, they used to say that the British Empire was so vast and so powerful, the sun would never set on it. This is how big it was, yet these 13 little scrawny states, tired of taxation without representation, tired of being exploited and oppressed and degraded, told that big British Empire, liberty or death.

And here you have 22 million Afro-Americans, black people today, catching more hell than Patrick Henry ever saw. And I'm here to tell you, in case you don't know it, that you got a new - you got a new generation of black people in this country, who don't care anything whatsoever about odds.

They don't want to hear you old Uncle Tom handkerchief heads talking about the odds. No. This is a new generation.

If they're going to draft these young black men and send them over to Korea or South Vietnam, to face 800 million Chinese. If you are not afraid of those odds, you shouldn't be afraid of these odds.






I guess he saw you coming "Black" camus..................


"They don't want to hear you old Uncle Tom handkerchief heads talking about the odds."

 

[da_monumental_1]

It was January 1965, he gave this speech entitled "Prospects for Freedom."


MALCOLM X:

When this country here was first being founded, there were 13 colonies. The whites were colonized. They were fed up with this taxation without representation. So some of them stood up and said, liberty or death.

I went to a white school over here in Mason, Michigan. The white man made the mistake of letting me read his history books. He made the mistake of teaching me that Patrick Henry was a patriot and George Washington – wasn’t nothing non-violent about old Pat or George Washington.

Liberty or death was what brought about the freedom of whites in this country from the English. They didn't care about the odds.

Why, they faced the wrath of the entire British Empire. And in those days, they used to say that the British Empire was so vast and so powerful, the sun would never set on it. This is how big it was, yet these 13 little scrawny states, tired of taxation without representation, tired of being exploited and oppressed and degraded, told that big British Empire, liberty or death.

And here you have 22 million Afro-Americans, black people today, catching more hell than Patrick Henry ever saw. And I'm here to tell you, in case you don't know it, that you got a new - you got a new generation of black people in this country, who don't care anything whatsoever about odds.

They don't want to hear you old Uncle Tom handkerchief heads talking about the odds. No. This is a new generation.

If they're going to draft these young black men and send them over to Korea or South Vietnam, to face 800 million Chinese. If you are not afraid of those odds, you shouldn't be afraid of these odds.






I guess he saw you coming "Black" camus..................


"They don't want to hear you old Uncle Tom handkerchief heads talking about the odds."

I saw this thread the other day and walked right back out. I was going to say the very exact thing you posted. Using the OP logics, the colonists would be fools to throw the shackles of colonialism from the British Empire off their backs. History tells a different story and has a funny way of repeating itself from time to time.

 

[Young Berg]

I guess he saw you coming "Black" camus..................

Young Berg

 

[Simply_Black]

A lot of people tend to overrate Malcolm X. In a thread about his Birthday, someone called him the greatest Black American ever. However, he died before he had a chance to be great. Moreover, he died before he could undo all of the harm that he did to Black America. He harmed scores of Black Americans by converting them to a false religion. Moreover, he harmed Black Americans by advocating retaliatory violence against whites.

The Nation of Islam (N.O.I.) is a false religion. Any religion that advocates hatred, even if it’s hate against prejudiced white people, is a false religion. Malcolm X realized and admitted this when he converted to true Islam, after his journey to the Middle East. Malcolm X died before he could spread the truth to all the souls he tainted with false religion.

Most Black Americans revere Malcolm X because of the revolutionary message he spread while he was a member of the Nation of Islam. He spread his message of retaliatory violence during America’s shameful and pitiful Jim Crow era. It is laudably significant that Malcolm X was a figurehead of a segment of Black Americans who organized for the purpose of violently resisting the violence perpetuated on them. It is significant, but at the same time such violence is tactically imprudent.

It’s tactically imprudent for a minority to advocate violence until it exhausts all other means of resistance, unless the minority receives military foreign aide. Whenever Black people talk about revolution it is important to realize that we have never comprised more than 13% of America’s population (look at census reports). Within that 13% maybe 3, or 4, percent supported the Nation of Islam’s retaliatory violence approach. Moreover, Black people are non-indigenous Americans in the sense that we are not white, and cannot covertly blend into America’s populace. Hence, had Black retaliatory violence become a problem in America, its government would undoubtedly have rounded Blacks up into camps, just like it did to Japanese Americans during WWII. All of this is why retaliatory violence by Black Americans is imprudent.

Whether or not he would have agreed with this rationale against retaliatory violence, he did not advocate once he converted to True Islam. Had he had the chance to thoroughly spread the truth once he made this reformation, I believe that he would have been one of the greatest, not only Black Americans, but one of the greatest Americans period. Unfortunately, he died before he could achieve true greatness. That’s why I believe he’s overrated.

.... I bet you're a cracker.