Boy it's getting piled high & wide up in here...
Lebron James is better than Michael Jordan
- Thread starter nu_work
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What actually increases MJ in the eyes of the people are two things. One the big push the NBA had for him in the 90s. Two - there was no other GOAT player.
Wilt had Russell, Kareem played with the Big O and with his nearly 20 year career bridged the gap between the 60s era and the 80s.
Magic had Bird
Michael had............
Then you have the new school. Shaq, Kobe and Duncan shared the spotlight at different times.
One word - Shaq.
When Shaq started dominating and the old guard of centers retired, players who would be centers started disguising themselves as power forwards. Then coaches started getting the biggest stiffs they could find to guard shaq and take up 6 fouls.
As a result players started getting pushed over. The old powerforward was replaced by the stiff center, centers became powerforwards, point guards got pushed to the bench for being too short and players who would be shooting guards were called tweeners and sent to the bench.
I think that statement is misleading because the game has changed. The NBA doesn't really have true centers anymore. In fact, the back-to-the-basket game for all positions is much less frequent than previous decades. I remember when guards like Rod Stickland would take you down in the blocks. With the league being inundated with European talent, the position is sometimes being filled with players that can put the ball on the floor, pass, and shoot long range like Andrea Bargnani in Toronto.
ROn Harper used to get in jordan ass
Get the fuck out of here with this bullshit topic and article, O must be high, too old, or getting some cash under the table to say some bullshit like that! In TODAYS NBA, where bastards can do almost everything with the ball and players can't, or DON'T play defense, of course your going to see huge inflated stats, but back in Jordans day, they didn't have the same rules, and every team had a defensive stopper, or as a team, they played hard defense for the most part, that or laid your ass out a few times to get you not to take it to the hole. LJ looks like a man, but you rough his ass up, you've seen it already, he withers away. He ain't won shit, he could have led his OWN team to some rings, couldn't, instead knew he couldn't do it alone or with bringing others so he choose to go with another already SET superstar to "try" to win. FAG move on his part! Put his ass in the era Jordan was in, he wouldn't be the same. Put Jordan in this class, fucker would average 50+ and more if he wanted! The two are not the same, never will be. One is a winner by every definition in the book, the other, a poser, that is self-proclamied, but chokes when it's on him, so now he has some buddies to blame it on if he/they choke again!!!
I totally overlook Jordan's number's in Washington for obvious reasons.
At the same time - why do you think Jordan never shot over 50% again after the 91-92 season? Now, the 94-95 season can be excused, because he was far from being in top for. Even outside of that, Jordan's percentage continued to go down. Now, obviously he was getting older, but...
...mainly he played heavily in the past after a point. Though the 80's are credited for being the toughest time defensively, Jordan's shooting percentages were at there lowest during the mid to late 90's.
While he could no longer fly as high, dude was still killin' dudes, and won three straight. It's just that that 50% was a lot harder to come by because of the level of athleticism, in my opinion.
Dont get it twisted. The scoring was better because players actually shot the ball better. Mid range game...free throwing shooting,etc. The defensive play was much better in the 80s and 90s..especially team defense. The rules have been changed to make it easier for fundamentally-challenged players to score now. Think about that.
I would love to see how much crying players would do now dealing with a Harper Handcheck.
A player like Jordan would add 5-6 more free throws per game with the way the game is called now. That is why I smh @ players balling out the defense with horrible pull up jump shots when the defensive player gets called for a foul as soon as he puts a firm hand on you.
Defense horrible in the 80's. Defense was more physical in the late 80's to 90's. The defense are tough today except for handchecking.
Players didn't shoot better. The degree of difficulty of their shots were as difficult as they are no. Players today take longer shots because getting off a midrange shot is very difficult these days because of the speed and athleticism of players.
People like to romanticize the 80's because that was when the NBA started to explode in popularity, but the defenses were horrible. Guys weren't as athletic and fast. I have heard Riles and other coaches admit to the defense of the 80's being very weak. They were allowed to be more physical when it mattered. For instance, you can hook a guy and not get thrown out of the game, but that doesn't mean the defenses were better. It just means that players were able to roughhouse other players without penalty.
There is a lack of physicality in today's game, but the defense are better and geared towards stopping star players, lowering their field goal percentage, making them take shots late in the shot clock, eliminating fast breaks and taking shots with a high degree of difficulty.
In the 80's teams just ran up and down the floor with little to no defense being played. Actually, guys are allowed to bang more on the boards today and rebounding is taken more seriously than in the 80's.
Some way, somehow I just know this thread is going to turn into a you-know-who bashing session.
I see what you did there.
Fixed for accuracy
This is simple. His style of play completely changed. Before the 91 season, when the Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics were winning titles, Jordan was mostly a slasher. The back to back Pistons title teams broke his back in the paint and Phil Jackson(really tex winters) began to implement the triangle offense. Jordan began to take more shots from the perimeter which, even though he still hit at a good clip, were lower percentage shots....nothing more...nothing less. This resulted in this shooting percentage slightly dropping.
Defense was not only more physical, it was more intelligent. Players now dont even know how to properly defend the pick and roll
Players still drive to the basket..so your theory of shots being more difficult to get off is absurd...the reality of the matter is that centers and power forwards no longer can play outside of the paint. Name me a center that consistently hits the 15 footer...even Bill Cartwright would be the best jump shooting center in the league right now with his ugly ass shot.
Actually, the difficulty of shot has been that way before zone defenses. The zone defense is only a few years old but they have been shooting from further distances for at least 15 years.
I see what you did there.
There have been a few near misses in here so far, but just wait... It's coming. 
Defense was not only more physical, it was more intelligent. Players now dont even know how to properly defend the pick and roll
Players still drive to the basket..so your theory of shots being more difficult to get off is absurd...the reality of the matter is that centers and power forwards no longer can play outside of the paint. Name me a center that consistently hits the 15 footer...even Bill Cartwright would be the best jump shooting center in the league right now with his ugly ass shot.
I am not sure about that. The pick and roll has always been difficult to defend. The offenses are more complex too. Players are more skilled too. The game is just more difficult. personally miss the physicality of the days gone, and that is why I enjoy the playoffs because they allow for more of it, but I just think people are nostalgic about the past.
Ming, Iglaskus, Camby, Amare, Bosh, Haslem, Josh, Dirk, Oozer, Lewis, Garnett, Lee, Duncan, Gasol just to name a few. Historically, centers have never had to be great jump shooters except for the few. Cartwright was a horrible shooter.
Can you actually name a bunch of centers who were actually that good except for the great ones. Most have been servicebale, and today you actually have a lot of guys who would play center in the past playing power forward.
Hypothetical ass niggas
Maybe you arent understanding what I am saying. I am not saying they have problems just trying to defend it. I am saying that defenders now just dont know how to defend it.
There is a theory on what you are supposed to do as a defender on the pick and roll (depending on your position) and defenders hardly ever make the correct positional move...I sit and watch Nash run that shit at the top of the guy and neither the #1 or usually the #4 or #5 who is out there makes the correct positional move. I almost think they have never been coached on how to defend it in high school and many arent well coached in college and it is a lost art form...almost like being able to hit the bank shot..players are not being taught the fundamentals until they reach the damn NBA and by that point it is too late.
The only real complex offense is the triple post offense and that is still very old....decades old.
But seriously...how is the game more difficult? If players are all around more atheletic... it cancels out on both ends. It is like saying football is more difficult now because the players are stronger and faster...the only thing that really can change things are RULES...like in the NFL where the rules are being geared more towards the offense.... in the NBA the same thing, the rules are being changed in favor of the defense so one could even argue that the game is easier offensively and manner current players have even gone on record saying so (joe johnson, kobe, etc..lots of top perimeter players now even say so)
I am completely not understanding the argument that the game is more difficult.
I dont agree that players are more skilled. I would agree that they are more athletic though. Hitting the mid-range shot is a skill. Hitting the bank shot is a skill. Being a good free throw shooter is a skill. Those are all either non-existent nor or on the decline.
Players are definitely faster and more athletic...but I wouldnt exactly call them more skilled....just my opinion.
There are only 2 centers on this list. Cartwright had an ugly ass shot, but even him..being the lower end for that era, would be one of the best mid-range shooters of this era as a center. He had a turn around from 15 feet that he could hit consistently.
man..we dont have to even mentioned all the very good to great centers....
I can use the Pistons from the 80s
..even Bill Laimbeer would be the best shooting center in the nba right now by far. James edwards would have one of the better mid-range shots for centers in the game today.
Players right now are just extremely athletic...
We can agree to disagree. I listed a few centers, but that is only because most of the guys playing power forward now would be centers. It is almost as if the roles have reversed. The power forward position didn't have that much expectations in offensive production.
Players are more athletic and skilled, but that doesn't mena that things cancel on another out. Offense always wins out in the NBA.
Anywyas.. Jordan would have averaged more points in todays NBA. I would say about 4 or 5, and it is still too early to put Lebron ahead of Jordan even though I think he has more talent. He can do a lot more than Jordan could, but Jordan is considered the best because of what he did.
I think it is too early to put Lebron in the conversation at all at this point. In terms of the Jordan argument, Lebron would need to have a spectacular second half of his career to even imagine catching Jordan...much less passing him
All of you make great points but the bottom line is players have evolved. Not gone backwards.. Guys are literally freaks compared to what the league once was. But then you had 2-4 guys athletic enough to take off from the free throw line. I've seen teams in the last ten years that've had 3-4 who could do it. Jeff Foster could do it NO PROBLEM circa 00-03... Think about that for a second. A big goofy white boy who is not even a star was that athletic? Brent Barry? The list goes on and on. T Stansbury? C'mon? James White minus 3 generations of athleticism growth.
What I do miss is the TOUGHNESS of players past. Players now a days cringe at any physicality. There are exceptions. Hell players back then requested fouls and bitched when they didn't get calls. You all have a horrible memory if you don't recall MJ, Reggie etc.. firing into officials for missing calls... But D Stern was smart enough to know that all that roughhousing shit that The Pistons did mucked the game up and a free-flowing game without unecessary fights etc.. would be a much more appealing display to the average fan who may not be a basketball junkie but potentially would buy tickets. And it's grown revenues exponentially!
You have 7 footers now how are lights out fucking shooters! You're talking about 15 footers? LOL. I take it you don't watch much basketball. You got guys 6'9 to 7'0 on every team in the league that are very good shooters from the perimeter. I actually think that's part of the problem. NOBODY wants to play the post anymore because it's not sexy. Dwight Howard wouldn't need an array of post moves in the 80s because he could play 1 on 1 and just fuck his defender around with his strength and superior athleticism. Bill Russel was as bland an offensive player (in terms of skill set) that you're gonna find. But he was dominant because he hustled and was athletic. Obviously he was relentless and had heart. But skills? These dudes were not fluid. Shouts to Tiny, Pearl, Pistol. Like I said, more physical but definitely not more skilled and 1000% nowhere near the caliber of athlete. That goes across to the NFL as well, it just is what it is...
But Lebron is as physical as they get while pushing that rock. To actually contemplate defending him in transition is a suicidal thought. 6-9 270 coming at you with the speed of a fucking fighter jet but still the ability to manuever and shift in a moments notice and finish with either hand? Fuckouttahere.. Dude is an anomoly IN ANY ERA. I've seen anything from Dr J on. I can't speak on Connie in his prime and the Big O, Elgin etc... But I watch plenty of tape. The game has simply progressed. Dudes like Tiny etc.. would be And 1 players today. Bob Cousy could ONLY dribble with his right hand. Meanwhile LB is a ambidextrious by birth....
What I do miss is the TOUGHNESS of players past. Players now a days cringe at any physicality. There are exceptions. Hell players back then requested fouls and bitched when they didn't get calls. You all have a horrible memory if you don't recall MJ, Reggie etc.. firing into officials for missing calls... But D Stern was smart enough to know that all that roughhousing shit that The Pistons did mucked the game up and a free-flowing game without unecessary fights etc.. would be a much more appealing display to the average fan who may not be a basketball junkie but potentially would buy tickets. And it's grown revenues exponentially!
You have 7 footers now how are lights out fucking shooters! You're talking about 15 footers? LOL. I take it you don't watch much basketball. You got guys 6'9 to 7'0 on every team in the league that are very good shooters from the perimeter. I actually think that's part of the problem. NOBODY wants to play the post anymore because it's not sexy. Dwight Howard wouldn't need an array of post moves in the 80s because he could play 1 on 1 and just fuck his defender around with his strength and superior athleticism. Bill Russel was as bland an offensive player (in terms of skill set) that you're gonna find. But he was dominant because he hustled and was athletic. Obviously he was relentless and had heart. But skills? These dudes were not fluid. Shouts to Tiny, Pearl, Pistol. Like I said, more physical but definitely not more skilled and 1000% nowhere near the caliber of athlete. That goes across to the NFL as well, it just is what it is...
But Lebron is as physical as they get while pushing that rock. To actually contemplate defending him in transition is a suicidal thought. 6-9 270 coming at you with the speed of a fucking fighter jet but still the ability to manuever and shift in a moments notice and finish with either hand? Fuckouttahere.. Dude is an anomoly IN ANY ERA. I've seen anything from Dr J on. I can't speak on Connie in his prime and the Big O, Elgin etc... But I watch plenty of tape. The game has simply progressed. Dudes like Tiny etc.. would be And 1 players today. Bob Cousy could ONLY dribble with his right hand. Meanwhile LB is a ambidextrious by birth....
fuck outta here
name me one center in the NBA now that shoots better than Bill Laimbeer. I will be waiting.
There are no 7 footers not named Dirk (ironically a euro and euros actually still learning fundamentals even when lacking the athleticism...they can shoot the rock) that are shooting from longe range.
I agree with the poster above. You put lebron in the 80s and who's guarding him?
A lot of this talk about the 80s being light years ahead is hogwash. Players not complain about contact because they're begging for fouls, it's the game THEY came up in.
In the 80s you had a lot of lanky guys, not it seems so many players are more physically developed.
The game has changed a lot. You can't allow the players to defend now the way they used to in the late 80s because the game will be damn near unwatchable.
I've seen plenty games from the 80s also. What I remember most is the amount of open jumpshots. Defense was not as good as some guys make it out to be. Sure there were teams known for their defense - but it seems people can only name the Pistons when it comes to it - but what other teams can we name besides the Knicks and Heat in the 90s?
Also, the game has more teams now. In the 87-88 season there were 23 teams. Four more teams were added the following season bringing the total to 27, and now the NBA has 30 teams.
You contract 7 teams and you'll see a higher quality as the NBA will eliminate lower end talent. Defense and shooting will increase.
A lot of this talk about the 80s being light years ahead is hogwash. Players not complain about contact because they're begging for fouls, it's the game THEY came up in.
In the 80s you had a lot of lanky guys, not it seems so many players are more physically developed.
The game has changed a lot. You can't allow the players to defend now the way they used to in the late 80s because the game will be damn near unwatchable.
I've seen plenty games from the 80s also. What I remember most is the amount of open jumpshots. Defense was not as good as some guys make it out to be. Sure there were teams known for their defense - but it seems people can only name the Pistons when it comes to it - but what other teams can we name besides the Knicks and Heat in the 90s?
Also, the game has more teams now. In the 87-88 season there were 23 teams. Four more teams were added the following season bringing the total to 27, and now the NBA has 30 teams.
You contract 7 teams and you'll see a higher quality as the NBA will eliminate lower end talent. Defense and shooting will increase.
for shooters, sam perkins, jack sikma, bob lanier.
players from past eras were FAR more talented and skilled than today's players. today's players can't even dribble the ball without putting their hands underneath it. that's WEAK. note the rule changes in that area and travelling to accomodate today's LESS skilled player.
even the "more athletic" label for TODAY's athlete is a bit of a misnomer. certainly the individual specimens are longer, maybe generally faster, and maybe generally quicker, but everybody forgets that they are also MORE fragile. minutes played per season? games played per season? despite "better" equipment and definitely better travel accomodations?
was the NBA's last "iron man" ac green?
TODAY's NBA is long on style but short on substance. and it shows. but that's perfect for the public in general and the masses of ignorant fans.
big difference:
JORDAN HAD THAT
KILLER INSTINCT!!!!!!!
JORDAN HAD THAT
KILLER INSTINCT!!!!!!!
This is one one of the biggest issues with the game in my opinion...It started going downhill after expansion in my opinion...watered down talent level. But in a way you are actually agreeing that the overall talent level is not up to par.
I also think you guys are completely overweighting this athleticism issue. It is very relative by nature...athletes will only continue to become more athletically gifted until you hit a wall..for instance, even sprinters will hit a will because there is only so much torque a human body can handle before it will break down. For instance, a sub 9 100 meter dash would not even be scientifically possible unless the human body completely changes.
The point is that you can only judge players against the talent of their eras.
Look at all the performance enhancing drugs, training, etc that major league hitters have now. Are they better hitters than previous sluggers....no....they just have better equipment, technology, nutrition, that gives them a better build. However, will we call our current players bums when in 30 years, the athleticism (faster, strongers, etc) increases IF the actual fundamentals diminish?
If you understand that argument, you understand how shabby it is....that is like saying Wilt, Russell, Magic, etc cant be considered in the goat argument because they could not play with the athletes of today.
Players today have access to thing that previous era did not.
You just players against the talent of their era...not a hypothetical of two completely opposing eras against each other......the previous era is almost always going to be handicapped except for a few rare specimens that are freaks of nature (like Lebron is now).
Thank you. I've been saying this in those Shaq vs Hakeem threads.
Players from this era are more athletic but less "skilled". Eewwll made an excellent point about fundamentals, and them not being taught. Most of the players in the league today are there because someone fell in love with their athleticism and assumed at some point that someone would coach them up on fundamentals but it doesn't happen and like eewwll mentioned, the league is not the place to learn them.
I hate to harken back to this argument because it's a slippery slope but the athleticism/fundamentals gap used to be filled by college (providing you went to a school with the right kind of coaching staff), but even the college game was effected by it.
In the early 90's you had schools like UNLV and the FAB 5 Michigan squad that were all athleticism but managed to lose to more fundamentally sound teams (Duke & UNC), but athleticism makes better highlights and so you have the culture we have today.
Today's NBA is fundamentally lacking but athletically exciting and since we live in a microwave culture it works for those that don't know any better.
I hate to harken back to this argument because it's a slippery slope but the athleticism/fundamentals gap used to be filled by college (providing you went to a school with the right kind of coaching staff), but even the college game was effected by it.
In the early 90's you had schools like UNLV and the FAB 5 Michigan squad that were all athleticism but managed to lose to more fundamentally sound teams (Duke & UNC), but athleticism makes better highlights and so you have the culture we have today.
Today's NBA is fundamentally lacking but athletically exciting and since we live in a microwave culture it works for those that don't know any better.
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