Thank you.
Michael Jordan faced tougher matchups under tougher rules in a tougher league.
Kobe Jordan Comparisons?!?!?!? May need to be re-evaluated a little bit!
- Thread starter TJervey
- Start date
Thank you.
Michael Jordan faced tougher matchups under tougher rules in a tougher league.
Re: Jordan Comparisons
pity the simpleton because he doesn't know the enormous laugh we are having at his expense. oh, the irony.
look at the emotions and hysterics leaking out.
starter v. starter is more valid because to include non-starter minutes played would necessarily skew the results down.
but of course you won't/can't acknowledge when you're wrong. so what does that make you by your own definition?
right.
not childish bitchassed rants like the ones you continue to try to poison with!?!?! The mark of a true man, intellectual, etc. is to be able to admit a miscalculation, with facts to support the misconception (and frankly, I still stand by my contention that Kobe is the greatest player of his Era, bar none, just not in comparison to Jordan). You are true clown, and the worst example of a psychotic stalker/hater that I've ever come across on BGOL. This whole thread AGAIN was to praise MJ, but to not discount Kobe's accomplishments, you on the other hand, unless someone doesn't proclaim to be a D-League level talent you get your panties all up in a bunch!?!?!?! I'm through debating your clown ass with meaningless fodder, it only fuels your psychosis. The only think that can help you is a soft couch, and maybe a man with School boy classes smoking a pipe!?!?!?!
Again, you are an idiot!!!! Which superstar players DO NOT take advantage of their Celebrity?!?!?! That's one of the benefits of being a Celebrity/Superstar!!! Starter vs. Starter (Idiot a CAREER COMPARISON IS JUST THAT, CAREER COMPARISON!!!) Please, lets stop talking about Kobe.... It obviously gets your blood pressure up! I'm sorry for upsetting you???? Put down the knife and back away from the cliff!!!!
pity the simpleton because he doesn't know the enormous laugh we are having at his expense. oh, the irony.
look at the emotions and hysterics leaking out.
starter v. starter is more valid because to include non-starter minutes played would necessarily skew the results down.
but of course you won't/can't acknowledge when you're wrong. so what does that make you by your own definition?
right.
Whats sad is last night Ray Allen had one of the greatest shooting displays in NBA Finals history. He hit 8 threes (an NBA Finals record) last night and helped lead the Celtics to a clutch road win. But you wont hear anyone call him "Jordan" because of it. If the Celtics go on and win this series and Ray or Rondo is named Finals MVP, you wont hear no one say they are as good as "Jordan" or have a "killer instinct" unparalleled by the rest of the league. Nope, only Kobe Bryant gets to use "team accomplishments" like winning NBA championships as a way to embellish his individual ones.
Jordan Comparisons
spot on.
and in light of the paucity and dearth of skilled basketball players in the current NBA, the league is forced to manufacture accomplishments and publicize pseudo-milestones in order to give the false appearance of maintaining a quality product.
you wont hear no one say they are as good as "Jordan" or have a "killer instinct" unparalleled by the rest of the league. Nope, only Kobe Bryant gets to use "team accomplishments" like winning NBA championships as a way to embellish his individual ones.
spot on.
and in light of the paucity and dearth of skilled basketball players in the current NBA, the league is forced to manufacture accomplishments and publicize pseudo-milestones in order to give the false appearance of maintaining a quality product.
I hear you, but honestly, that list doesn't really shadow the one I listed previously, especially when more than half of the biggest names on that list got to play against only a young MJ or barely ever matched up with him at all. But I guess I should add a few more just to solidify my point:
Original list:Mcgrady, Pierce, J. Rich, Wade, Mello, Vince, Joe Johnson, Ginobli, Stephen Jackson, K.Martin, Mayo, Roy
Additions: Iverson, Finley, Gordon, Rip Hamilton, Jerry Stackhouse, Mashburn, Allen Houston, Spreewell, Jalen Rose, Iguodala, J.R. Smith, Ariza(why not), Battier, Caron Butler, Gay, Durant(you put Bird), Lebron, Grant Hill, Maggette, Christie, and many more...
Definitely the rules were tougher back then(though not always for MJ, similar to Kobe), and MJ played against some of the same players(and I'm suprised you didn't throw Mitch in that list too), but I think it's obvious that Kobes era is way more 2/3man heavy. Not only that but Kobe plays/ed in an era where everybody has a perimeter shot, can jump out the building, and are usually 6'6" plus. Kobe's also done pretty good jobs of guarding several top teir point guards in his career also(one pretty recently), and didn't/doesn't have a Scottie Pippen to neutralize the opposing teams #1 or #2(No Artest is not at that level).
With that said, at this point I got Kobe fighting for the #2 all-time spot(Magic only had 12 seasons of extreme greatness, whatever the reason, so I feel that knocks him out of the conversation), but he does have time on his side to nip at MJs heels.
Please list your top 10 all-time. Only because I can name at least 3 Lakers who I'd place over him.
I used to think the same thing but outside of the generation from Kareem forward, all other comparisons are in a historical statistical sense unless you are a REAL O.G.!
: That being said, there aren't ANY Lakers that have played that have matched Kobe's OVERALL career body of work. Even to a point, on the ALL-TIME basis, this is also subjective as well. As far as Kobe nipping at Jordan's heels, I don't think he has enough PRIME years left to truly supplant AIR as the GOAT. Not just statistically, but Jordan actually created an whole culture around his career, both in the Basketball and Non-Basketball worlds... 
Kobe is still behind Kareem and Magic in the two most important categories. Championships 5 > 4, and MVPs 3 > 1. And in the case of Kareem he has an additional 3 MVPs and a championship that he didn't win in a Laker uniform.I used to think the same thing but outside of the generation from Kareem forward, all other comparisons are in a historical statistical sense unless you are a REAL O.G.!
Top 10 Playoff Performances....Jordan has 5 of the top 10 on the list!!!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=BestFinalsGame-Individual-intro
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=BestFinalsGame-Individual-intro
me too.
michael cooper
ac green
kurt rambis
100% serious.
i'd take all 3 of those players on THIS fakers squad over tobe.
I can't say that I have a finite top ten just because I'm only 33and did'nt get to watch some of the greats entire careers. I wouldn't put any laker over Kobe(except Magic if he had a longer career) for the fact of how he has been able to separate himself from such a rich talent pool at similar positions. I personally think the greatest should be catagorized by position just because there are so many different skill sets that each position requires. With that being said, I'd give Kobe the nod as #2 at SG hands down(and still rising). Of course you have to factor each eras rules and toughness level. For example, I personally think you take a player like KG, just place his career back 10 years, and I think you don't have as dominate a PF even w/ all his talent. I wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't have been labeled at SF, 'cause I just don't see him bangin' the 80's and 90's bigs throughout his career w/o gettin' snapped in two. But I see Kobe as a player you can transplant at 2 guard in any era, and you'd get the same results if not better. And with the time he has remaining in his career, I don't know if he can surpass MJ, but I wouldn't be surprised if it became a 1/1A type discussion. Especially if people start given Pippen(Take Gasol minus 5", add Lamar, plus what everybody thought Artest was gonna be for the lakers=Pippen) his props.
MJ was amazing(I'm a die-hard Knicks fan, so trust me a remember him vividly
), but Kobe is also, and with being a student of the game, may be able to elevate his game in a similar fashion to MJ that could even take him over the top! He's already a better career perimeter shooter, and just a slightly worse defender(witch is agrueble considering his comparible competition, in my opinion), training w/ Hakeem in the offseason? What if he perfects the fadeaway like MJ did? Stops putting up buildings in the 4th of crucial games(which is already happening)? At 31, people need to understand it is possible for him to be as great as MJ or better, almost probable.Jordan Comparisons
interesting.
most of the fakers coaching staff considers dwyane wade currently the best SG in the league hands down, and have felt that way for a couple seasons now.
dwyane wade's efficiency is remarkable.
interesting.
most of the fakers coaching staff considers dwyane wade currently the best SG in the league hands down, and have felt that way for a couple seasons now.
dwyane wade's efficiency is remarkable.
The thing I disagree with is that if the talent pool is supposedly so rich, who are the other HOF caliber SG of this generation? After Wade and Allen, who else is there? That's to not say guys the like of Joe Johnson are trash, but
Even if we were just doing this by position it would be hard to consider Kobe as the hands down 2nd greatest SG ever when the argument can be made that he isn't even the greatest SG in the history of his own franchise. Depending on the day, I flip him and Jerry West on the all-time great list as right now the two are very close.
Kobe is simply doing what is required of his era. By that I mean if you remember how MJ was built throughout his career, you would notice he used to be the same build as Kobe in the early stages of his career before bulking up to handle the Pistons and Knicks of the 90's. This era isn't as physical as that one so the extra weight isn't as necessary.
In order for it to be a 1/1A discussion, Kobe is still going to have to put some serious work in. Only winning one MVP is going to hurt along with the fact that he has way too many blemishes on his record that make little sense from a GOAT perspective ('04 Finals, missing the playoffs in '05, questionable performances in decisive games against Phoenix and Boston)
I saw many of those same games you did as a fellow Knick fan. The thing is that in many ways Kobe is the same player he is now that he was when he was 25. The thing also with the Jordan fadeaway was that it was the most unstoppable move in the league. The thing though was that in Jordan's era he was unquestionably the best player in the league. You can't say the same about Kobe.MJ was amazing(I'm a die-hard Knicks fan, so trust me a remember him vividly
I listed about 70% of them earlier. If you think that list is suspect. Well we all have oour own opinions.
As I said before, I'm 33 and can't fairly gauge superstars of past generation, but I seriously doubt Jerry West(face of the NBA and all) would argue that Kobe is better than he ever was.
I disagree. If anything MJ bulked up to Kobes weight(if I'm not mistaken MJ started at like 190 while Kobe's around 205-210) later on in his career and I don't think it was because of match ups, it was father time. With the added weight came less agility, which came the fadeaway, which will be addressed in a second. MJ was always strong though(stronger than Kobe), no matter what he weighed.
All of this I agree on and addressed in my previous post. But Kobe has evolved as a player, especially in cluch situation. But yeah, the Boston series loss has made it a hard uphill battle for him, w/o question.
I'm sorry, I loved the NBA wayy more in the 80's and 90's than now, but I have to admit that there is alot more talent in the league now! MJs era had alot of overacheivers playing back then that made up for their lack of talent w/ tenacity, heart, and work ethic. The thing that separated MJ from the flock was we was a phenomenal talent w/ all the intangibles to boot. Now we have a bunch of super talented divas who we're lucky to see 80% of their true potential on the court, 9 out of 10 times. As for the fadeaway, Kobe is doing his damnedest to follow in MJ's footsteps, training w/ the player who truely perfected the shot, Hakeem(my favorite player of all time, by the way). As for that, only time will tell if Kobes' greatness is MJ caliber.
Re: Jordan Comparisons
Very similar game to a young Jordans'(minus a couple inches). But he stays getting hurt and, like young a MJ, has a suspect perimeter game. Kobe is definitely a more complete SG, at least at this point. I'm a huge fan of Wades though.
Very similar game to a young Jordans'(minus a couple inches). But he stays getting hurt and, like young a MJ, has a suspect perimeter game. Kobe is definitely a more complete SG, at least at this point. I'm a huge fan of Wades though.
I was saying more or less that list included a lot of good players and very few great players. I also was talking about only SG and not swingmen which I maybe should have clarified.
Where I was going with that is if you were to take a look at each player's complete body of work, Kobe vs. Jerry West will be a much more interesting debate than Kobe vs. Jordan. The difference between Kobe and West is closer than the difference between Kobe and Jordan.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've always believed the style of play was the major reason as to why Jordan bulked up.
Kobe still makes a lot of dumb decisions though. Also, Kobe does not have the killer instinct Jordan had.
I wouldn't say that the league had more overachievers back then. If anything, I would say there are more underachievers now. Two of the biggest underachievers I've ever seen are playing in this series now (Odom and Wallace). I think the verdict is already out though on Kobe. Where he really had a chance to get on that Jordan level was after Shaq was traded. Had the Lakers remained close to the same level they were without Shaq in the mix, a lot more people would give him more credit. However, it took one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history in order for him to get back to leading a championship contender.
copied and pasted from the main board.For anyone who is trying to compare Kobe to Jordan.. can you please oblige me and provide a response to my request.
who among the players I listed ISN'T playing either SG or SF besides Barkley? Magic was a PG whom it has been documented has played more than just the one position for many years. Especially on defense. My posting of these players was a DIRECT response to this:
so I posted a few names off the top of my head that Jordan might've been matched up with along his career (btw, that list could include Kobe). Jordan did not play SG exclusively on defense, many times he was matched up against bigger SFs like the Doc and Iceman early in his career. And he also matched up against PGs on more than a few occasions
who among the players I listed ISN'T playing either SG or SF besides Barkley? Magic was a PG whom it has been documented has played more than just the one position for many years. Especially on defense. My posting of these players was a DIRECT response to this:
so I posted a few names off the top of my head that Jordan might've been matched up with along his career (btw, that list could include Kobe). Jordan did not play SG exclusively on defense, many times he was matched up against bigger SFs like the Doc and Iceman early in his career. And he also matched up against PGs on more than a few occasions
No disrespect, but I'm gonna have to opt out of debating with you. Though you made some valid points in your response to me, it's obvious that you did'nt grasp the point I was trying to make and it would be too exhausting to address that along w/ the other folks on in this thread. I hope you don't feel slighted, but I got a feeling we'd be talking in circles if I responded. Peace
I never said this was a list full of future HOFers, just a much deeper list of talent than what MJ had to face. And you have to put swingmen in the conversation, because usually that's the type of player both of them had to face on offense(Pierce, Russel, Patterson, Augmon, etc..).
I understand, but West played in an era that was so much different. we're talking about a 6'2" swingman, something you'd never see in MJs or Kobes eras. Just not a balanced comparison.
Agreed. But he's 31 and probably his harshest critic(contrary to what many people beleive), which may evolve his game or not. Only time will tell.
I agree that there are way more underacheivers now(which I basically said in my last post), but I think it's unfair to judge Kobe considering is age and previous teammates. When MJ had a great(yes great), supporting cast he won. It was so good that w/o him they were on their way to a finals appearance until my boys got blessed by the refs(sorry Pippen
). Kobe had transplants from losing teams(one of your underacheivers) and cats you can't find on a NBA roster anymore. Not to mention a western conference witch was extremely better than the east. With that said Kobe didn't do that bad in my opinion(lets not forget his age and the "rape" drama also). Yeah that trade was ridiculous, but having Pippen, Jordan, Rodman, Kukoc(in his prime) along with seasoned vets like Harper(a former star) and a cast of perimeter asassins isn't?One of the greatest performances in NBA finals history. Also the worst no call in NBA finals history. But yeah, I've never seen Kobe just freeze a team like that. All I have to sat to that is he's 31 w/ the best PF in the league. The jury's still out.
Thank you.
Michael Jordan faced tougher matchups under tougher rules in a tougher league.
MIKE DEFINITELY DIDNT WIN UNTIL DAVID STERN TURNED MY DETROIT PISTONS INTO THUGS AND LABELED THEM SUCH...AND SUPERSTAR CALLS WERE BORN
After that bullshit you couldn't breathe on MJ without a foul being called
Last but not least...MIKE won ZERO (0) rings in the 80s when the basketball was tougher...so you idiots make no sense
And the G.O.A.T. talk
Come on
JORDAN WILL ALWAYS WIN
STATS
STORYBOOK ENDINGS
ADVERSITY
MJ is the best ever hands down of any era in most people's eyes so its no point to argue that
But skillwise...Kobe is the best SG ever hands down
Unfortunately its too many monsters nowadays
I'm 6'5 people look at me as shit cuz im not in the NBA...while most of my former coaches all tell me I would have made it back then...but now you got guys with so much athleticism you can actually look past skill in some instances...oh well got some middle school coaching positions lined up no sweat
Come on
JORDAN WILL ALWAYS WIN
STATS
STORYBOOK ENDINGS
ADVERSITY
MJ is the best ever hands down of any era in most people's eyes so its no point to argue that
But skillwise...Kobe is the best SG ever hands down
Unfortunately its too many monsters nowadays
I'm 6'5 people look at me as shit cuz im not in the NBA...while most of my former coaches all tell me I would have made it back then...but now you got guys with so much athleticism you can actually look past skill in some instances...oh well got some middle school coaching positions lined up no sweat
Jordan Comparisons
tremendous worker, big heart, plays intelligently within the system, can hit the mid-range shot.
tremendous worker, big heart, plays intelligently within the system, can hit the mid-range shot.
The 3 best players that ever played with MJ was Pippen, Rodman and Horace Grant.
None of those players were considered the best player in their position during the Bulls championship run. Yes, they were all top 5 in the position.
Kobe has played with both Shaq and now Gasol. Both of those players are/were top 2 players in their position.
MJ went 6 for 6 in his NBA runs. Kobe has gone 4 for 6 with a real possibility of going 4 for 7 in his championship runs with 1 MVP title.
Both players have been in ideal situations but MJ has clearly made the most of his career.
MJ went 6 for 6 in the NBA Finals with 6 Finals MVPs titles. How can any current player match such stats?
None of those players were considered the best player in their position during the Bulls championship run. Yes, they were all top 5 in the position.
Kobe has played with both Shaq and now Gasol. Both of those players are/were top 2 players in their position.
MJ went 6 for 6 in his NBA runs. Kobe has gone 4 for 6 with a real possibility of going 4 for 7 in his championship runs with 1 MVP title.
Both players have been in ideal situations but MJ has clearly made the most of his career.
MJ went 6 for 6 in the NBA Finals with 6 Finals MVPs titles. How can any current player match such stats?
Here's some interesting stats about MJs teammates where you won't be able to compare stats:
1). 3 players are ranked in the top 15 in all time steals: MJ(2nd), Pippen(5th), and Ron Harper(11th). MJ and Pippen are top 15 per(3rd and 13th) while Harper is 27th. No Lakers that played in any of their chamionship teams, besides Kobe(28th steals total, 37th per game) are ranked within the top 50 of either catergory.
2). Steve Kerr, B.J. Armstrong, and Craig Hodges are ranked 1st, 7th, and 29th in all-time 3pt percentage. There wasn't one player from the Lakers in the 100th in this catergory.
3. Dennis Rodman is 10th all time in rebounds per game and has the highest avg. in the last 30 years and while Horance Grant was winning three in a row, he avg. 9.3 per(he avg. 7.1 as a Laker, 7 years later while getting a chip). While Shaq(26th), Gasol(75th), and Odom(76th) put up impressive numbers, only Shaq has any defensive honors while both Rodman and Grant have numerous.
Yes Shaq and Gasol were top 2 in their position, but Pippen is top 50 all-time and they not only had a Grant or Rodman(and don't forget Kokoc), but the opportunity to work under the same system for several years w/ a supporting cast that can properly execute Phil Jacksons philosophy.
The bulls had a revolving door of Centers and point guards. There was no settled and long term supporting cast.
As far as Power Forwards, Horace Grant was only there for the 1st three runs and Rodman was there for the last 3.
(Grant helped the Lakers win a title too is 2001.)
Cliff Levingston, Bill Wennington, Bill Cartwright, Stacy King, Luc Longely, Brad Sellers, Scott Williams, Will Perdue, Corie Blunt, John Salley, Dickey Simpkins, Jason Caffey and Joe Kleine. These were the Bulls big men during the Jordan era.
I named you 13 bums. Lamar Odom is better than every man on that list. Andrew Bynum is better than every man on that list. Pau Gasol is especially better every man on that list. Gasol is also better than Rodman and Grant.
I can name the parade of PGs for the Bulls and the list would be equally unimpressive.
Meanwhile the Lakers had Mr. Big shot Bob aka Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, Kobe and Shaq as a core for all their championship runs.
Kobe has alway had a real supporting cast to win with.
Fact.
Kobe didn't always win even with an elite big man like Shaq, Odom, Gasol or Bynum.
Fact he didn't even get to the finals without a big man.
The Lakers are down 3-2 with a roster that includes
Bynum
Gasol
Odom
Kobe
Fisher
Folks forget that Kobe was outplayed by Pierce in the 08 finals. What player has ever come close to outplaying MJ in the NBA finals?
I repeat. This is Kobe's 7th NBA Final appearance and he only has 1 Finals MVP.
Folks keep holding up Kobe when Magic Johnson has 5 rings and 3 finals MVPs.
Kobe hasn't eclipsed Magic.
Have folks forgetten Shaq contributions to the Lakers championships. He average more than 35 over the course of his purple and gold championships.
Armstrong, Paxson, and Hodges were both there at least 2 years prior to the first 3-peat(Paxson since '85). Same case for Kerr(93-94) and though Harper only came 1 year early, he did average 20pts per the previous year. And Randy Brown? Does it really matter?
These are all facts, which I covered already(Horace only dropped 8 and 7 for the Lakers F.Y.I). The thing you didn't cover was the constant of Scottie Pippen(a position defining player and better player than anyone Kobe ever played w/ save agruably Shaq) and world class perimeter shooters.
Did you do a drop of research before you started throwing out these names?!? Brad Sellers, Corie Blount, and Joe Kliene(who was a contributor when healthy) never got a chip w/ the bulls. Every other player(save Simpkins and Salley, who played three years combined) were at the very least solid contributors for their minutes. Especially Cartright, King, and Longley who were extremly efficiant(check the stats).
No, you named 4 or 5 bums that were irrelevent to winning those chips and a bunch of solid role players. You want some bums? Here goes some even below your standards:
A.C. Green(age 36), John Salley(age 35), Ron Harper(age 36/37) Greg Foster, Mark Madsen, Brian Shaw(yup), Medvedenko, Mitch Richmond(age 36), Samaki Walker, Adam Morrison, Josh Powell, Vladimir Radmanovic, Sasha Vujacic, Shannon Brown, Luke Walton. So there's 15 legit bums who all played in the regular and post season for the Lakers(most for a only a year a piece)
No.. You can't.
You really don't know what you're talking about.I don't remember Horry, Fox(not that it would've made a difference , he was bumjuice by '01 anyway), or Shaq on '09?
True. Against a (healthy)line up that trumps them at three out of five positions. With a bench, And Odom doesn't start, for the record(I like how you avoided mentioning Artest
). These are the only valid points you made. All true, but, as I keep saying, he's only 31 and a student of the game. Lets see where he ends up when it's all said and done.