Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
QueEx said:<font size="4"><center>
In May 2003 ... Tehran made a dramatic - but surprisingly
little known - approach to the Americans ... to say that we are
ready to talk, we are ready to address our issues,"; Hardliners
in Iran, scarred by the past, cited Ayatollah Khomeini's dictum that
any friendship between the US and Iran was like that between a wolf
and a sheep; the hardliners [in America] who stood against dialogue had
a memorable refrain: "We don't speak to evil'.
</font size></center>
[frame]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5377914.stm[/frame]
tehuti said:Given Bush's doctrine, is our aggression towards Iran based on their having nuclear weapons or is it that they are not a democracy, targeted for the spread of freedom and elimination of "outposts of tyranny"?
hoodedgoon said:Not trying to put words in your word Q, but based on how you phrase the sentence you saying you believe those crazy mullahs will give Osama and the like, nukes?
I can't say for sure, but I’m as sure that Iran will probably give nukes to terrorist as I’m sure GW will invade before he leaves office if Iraq calms down. But based on the current law the Iranians have the right to enrich.
If you look at the "geo-political - my big word for the day" landscape of the Middle East in the last 25 years, you'll probably see why Iran is so nervous. They are surrounded by US soldiers in Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc china is on top of them hungry and looking to expand, Israel has nuclear weapons, they were branded as one of the axis of evil of which one has already been invaded and now occupied, the US has tried to overthrow their government before, Pakistan and India are nuclear powers, as a matter of fact India did not sign the NPT yet the US is selling them nuclear technology, Pakistan illegally developed nuclear technology and is now GW's best bud in the war on terror. Iran is a signatory to the NPT which gives them the right to enrich uranium and they are being told they can't. I'd be nervous too. See you have to enrich to get electricity in the nuclear process. Everybody is saying Iran does not even have the right to nuclear technology and therefore nuclear electricity. They do indeed have an abundance of oil, yet all the talking heads are quoting published reports saying the planet will run out of oil in 50 years. This is another reason to pursue nuclear technology.
The only thing the Iranians hate more than their own government is our government messing in their business.
![]()
QueEx said:[1] I often wonder if that isn't some unconscious death-to-America wish, from within. It seems as if some people may hate white so much they are willing to risk their own demise, just to get em back.
[2] GW should have never cast the differences between Iran in the U.S./West in religious terms. Saying that Iran is part of the "Axis of Evil" probably had a lot to do with casting the conflict with Iran in "Religious" terms, that is, Christianity vs. Islam. Obviously thats the way Osama sees it but I find it curious how many fail to see that unless they're Muslims, they're shit out of luck to.
[3] Recall, that the radical or fundamentalist not only despise Christianity and other western religions, they despise all non-muslims, whether they are believers, or not.
[4] Fuck GW's democracy crusade, but maybe some governments can't allow their people freedoms of choice -- its anti-their-religion, hence, if you espouse "choice" you're against them. So, unless you think like I do, you're dissing me - or - you're not giving me respect.
[5] I couldn't give a shit about Israel one way or the other and I believe we should force them to settle with the Palestinians. But, thats not what many in the Muslim world (and many on this board) want. Seems to me, they want Isreal's annihilation. I don't think thats going to happen, short of WWIII, Armageddon, or just a solid "yellow-cake" ass whopping topped with a little radiation. And, even if it ceases to exist, What Then? - is that the end of it for the Muslim extremist and fundamentialist? Or the west next?[/indent]
You raise an interesting scenario BigUnc, but I don't know. Even with the terrorist label, I don't see overt military action against the RG, which is an official arm of a sovereign, without some overt physical provocation by the RG or Iran itself. I think Bush is just sabre rattling and adding pieces to the Ugly Iran puzzle. If you're going to maintain the portrait of Iran as the Axis of Evil, you have to add some brush strokes every now and then, lest the picture fades in the minds of the viewers.BigUnc said:I was wondering how the U.S. Administration was going to justify an attack on Iran, particularly how they would get around Congress. Well this article from the Washington Post lays it out for me. By labeling a part of Iran's military as a terrorist organization gives Bush and Co. the green light under the Authorization to Use Military Force bill passed by Congress after 9/11 to go after Iran.
QueEx said:You raise an interesting scenario BigUnc, but I don't know. Even with the terrorist label, I don't see overt military action against the RG, which is an official arm of a sovereign, without some overt physical provocation by the RG or Iran itself. I think Bush is just sabre rattling and adding pieces to the Ugly Iran puzzle. If you're going to maintain the portrait of Iran as the Axis of Evil, you have to add some brush strokes every now and then, lest the picture fades in the minds of the viewers.
To hit Iran at this time, IMHO, would be large because of the likely fallout (repercussions): oil shortages in the U.S. that would kill off any politician who supports an attack - - unless there is clear justification warranting an attack; and the possibility of a wider war in the Middle East between Syria, Lebanon/Hezbollah, any other Muslim group anxious to get at Israel - and Israel. Or course, there is talk that we could weather the oil-shortage storm and possibly attacks within the U.S. by Iranian/Hezbollah elements, but to make a precipitous attack to bring all of that on in the face of the present thinking of the American public, IMO, is not likely. Hence, its just an attempt to put more pressure/stress on Iran. But, with enough heat water boils, with enough stress metal fatigues, and rubbing two sticks together long enough produces fire.
QueEx
BigUnc said:I can't disagree with your analysis, this is a puzzling move giving Bush only has 17 months left in office. I envision this move would take at least a year of exposing the Republican Gaurds worldwide finances then confiscating them and putting pressure on their trading partners to sever ties in an effort to weaken them financially before an attack.
Right now I can envision 2 somewhat credible scenarios and 1 that is off the wall:
1). Positioning so the next president can have a range of options to deal with the Iranians from attacking to a change in diplomacy.
This is a tough one. Considering what I just said above (Bush not intentionally out to damage the country); I have to be mindful of some of the games orchestrated by Rove and possibly others that have been played to do nothing other than "influence the elections." When Nixon was in deepening trouble with Watergate, some believe he tried to refocus the national attention away from his domestic problems to the Middle East during the Arab-Israeli 1973 War. In fact, U.S. troops were placed in Defense Condition 3 (DefCon3) mobilization. Hence, your scenario is not totally off the chain.bigUnc said:2). Seems as though everything he's doing is timed to come to a head next year in the middle of the Presidential election. Could this be a effort to influence the election with some patriotic rally 'round the flag bullshit.
BigUnc said:The off the wall scenario is:
The much talked about big domestic terrorist attack happens next year with Bush blaming the Republican Guards resulting in further curtailment or suspension of civil liberties at home, attacking Iran triggering a regional war in the Middle East, and a suspension of the Presidential election until this dire threat to the 'merican way of lifeis defeated.
or maybe it's something else??
QueEx said:P.S.
All of what I said above depends on what the American people actually get to know and when they get to know it.
QueEx
```French President Sarkozy said:<font size="4">"an alternative that I call catastrophic: an Iranian bomb or the bombing of Iran."</font size>
Experts:
Danger of nuclear-armed Iran may be hyped
By Warren P. Strobel | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007
WASHINGTON — A hostile country led by anti-American ideologues appears close to developing its first nuclear weapon and, as a U.S. election approaches, the president and his advisers debate a pre-emptive military strike. Newspaper columnists demand action to stop the nuclear peril.
The country was China, the year was 1963 and the president was Lyndon Baines Johnson.
Now it is Iran that is said to may be bent on acquiring nuclear arms, and President Bush who has declared that "unacceptable." Some U.S. officials and outside commentators are again pushing for a pre-emptive attack.
But the White House and its partisans may be inflating the dangers of a nuclear-armed Iran, say experts on the Persian Gulf and nuclear deterrence. While there are dangers, they acknowledge, Iran appears to want a nuclear weapon for the same reason other countries do: to protect itself.
Bush, by contrast, has suggested that a nuclear-armed Iran could bring about World War III. The president and his top aides, along with hawkish commentators, have suggested that Iran might launch a first strike on Israel or the United States, or hand nuclear weapon to terrorist groups Tehran supports.
There is "only one terrible choice, which is either to bomb those (Iranian nuclear) facilities and retard their program or even cut it off altogether, or allow them to go nuclear," Norman Podhoretz, a foreign policy adviser to GOP presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani, said last month.
"Would I like Iran to have a nuclear bomb? No," said Robert Jervis, a Columbia University professor of international politics who has written widely on nuclear deterrence. But, "the fears (voiced) by the administration and a fair number of sensible people as well, just are exaggerated. The idea that this will really make a big difference, I think is foolish."
Even some commentators in Israel, whose leaders see themselves in Iran's crosshairs, present a more nuanced view of the potential threat than the White House does.
An Iranian nuclear bomb could present Israel "with the real potential for an existential threat," Ephraim Kam of the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv wrote in February.
But Kam noted that Israel has its own unacknowledged nuclear deterrent-estimated at 100 to 200 warheads — larger than anything Iran could marshal for years to come.
Despite Iran's "messianic religious motivations," he wrote, "it is highly doubtful that Tehran would want to risk an Israeli nuclear response" by attempting a first strike.
Moreover, Iran, which says its nuclear research is aimed at generating electric power, is not thought to be close to having a nuclear weapon. In the worst-case scenario, it could have enough highly enriched uranium, a basic weapon ingredient in weapons, in two to three years.
The International Atomic Energy Agency is due to report next week on whether Iran has cleared up questions about its past nuclear work. The IAEA's judgment will influence whether the U.N. Security Council imposes new sanctions on Iran for failing to suspend uranium enrichment.
Bush administration officials insist that Iran is different from other countries that have sought and acquired nuclear weapons.
The world's known nuclear club is comprised of the United States, Russia, China, France, Britain, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea.
"Iran has been willing to share technology and arms with terrorists and inappropriate regimes, in the way these others haven't," said a senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
"The underlying facts of Iran and of nuclear weapons are different than these other cases," the official said. "I think they would behave differently."
In fact, U.S. ally Pakistan provided nuclear weapons technology to Iran and Libya, and North Korea has sold ballistic missiles in several Middle Eastern countries.
Iran's government is "a regime that is very aggressive in pursuit of its goals," added former undersecretary of state Robert Joseph, a conservative. "Having nuclear weapons would make it even more aggressive."
It is difficult to judge whether Iran would be deterred from using nuclear weapons because the West has limited understanding of the government in Tehran and the United States has mainly indirect communications, analysts say.
"We haven't talked to the Iranians well enough. We talked to the Soviets all the time," said former CIA analyst Judith Yaphe, now at the National Defense University. She added: "But I don't trust someone like (Iranian President Mahmoud) Ahmadenijad to understand where the red lines are."
Others, including Columbia's Jervis, say the U.S. government has not examined in depth how a nuclear armed Iran might behave for a simple reason: Bush's policy is that Iran will not be allowed to have the bomb.
U.S., Israeli and European concerns about a nuclear Iran generally fall into three categories:
The first is that it would hand over a nuclear weapon to terrorists, hoping to elude responsibility for an attack on Israel or America.
But Kam, the Israeli analyst, wrote that the chance of this "appears low." A more serious worry, he wrote, is that Iran could deter Israel from acting against Hezbollah, Iran's terrorist proxy that opposes Israel's existence.
Mohsen Sazegara, who helped found Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and is now a U.S.-based dissident, also predicted Iran would not engage in nuclear terrorism. "If I found out somebody was thinking of this, I'd have to say I don't know my country," he said.
The second concern is that a nuclear-armed Iran would prompt Arab powers such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt to seek their own bombs, sparking an arms race in the perpetually unstable Middle East.
"They're all talking about it now," Yaphe said. "That's a bad thing."
The third is that Iran, because of its radical religious government, will not be deterred from using nuclear weapons. Podhoretz said during a PBS debate that with Iran under the control of clerics and the "religious fanatic" Ahamadinejad "there's no assurance that self-preservation or the protection, preservation of the nation, will deter them."
But Jervis noted that in the early 1960s, Chinese leader Mao Tse-tung "was foaming at the mouth" with anti-Americanism.
President Johnson took no military steps to stop China from going nuclear, and it tested a weapon in 1964.
Iran's leaders suspect the United States wants to overthrow them. "Nuclear weapons mainly protect the homeland," Jervis said.
McClatchy Newspapers 2007
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/21341.html
Funding an Islamic dictatorship and then declaring war on that same dictatorship was part of Bush's understanding of democracy.<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/b34_1226669321"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/b34_1226669321" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>