co-sign, let the man rest damit
Interesting Joe Lewis Interview That Exposes Bruce Lee
- Thread starter Mastermind2002
- Start date
let me say this
people say bruce lee
is the greatest all time
for two reasons
1.he created his own fight style
2.and he could beat you in under a minute
chuck norris was a champion
he said out of his own mouth
that could not beat bruce lee
the only thing white boys could do back in the 60s
was a round house
bruce could jump over them
he created 600 moves
400 are use in the ufc
look at films
he started kung fu in the 40s
and started weight lifting in 55
he died at 32
he had accomplish
more on film
then he would ever
in fighting
also you got to keep in mind
why a lot white folks
dont like bruce
bruce had a black power mentally
whites didnt like asians
but they wanted
what they knew
bruce was a man
and he love life
and people
and what he did
let the man r.i.p
people say bruce lee
is the greatest all time
for two reasons
1.he created his own fight style
2.and he could beat you in under a minute
chuck norris was a champion
he said out of his own mouth
that could not beat bruce lee
the only thing white boys could do back in the 60s
was a round house
bruce could jump over them
he created 600 moves
400 are use in the ufc
look at films
he started kung fu in the 40s
and started weight lifting in 55
he died at 32
he had accomplish
more on film
then he would ever
in fighting
also you got to keep in mind
why a lot white folks
dont like bruce
bruce had a black power mentally
whites didnt like asians
but they wanted
what they knew
bruce was a man
and he love life
and people
and what he did
let the man r.i.p
alexw said:there wouldnt be a ufc if it wasnt for Bruce
How so?
maddcat said:
And the reason was he didn't want to ruin his reputation which is why he sent Joe Lewis into tournaments for him to test out the JKD concepts and report back. Bruce wanted to be a movie star and if he got knocked the fuck out in the ring it would tarnish him. I don't buy into this spiritual enlightenment nonsense that he added to JKD after reading some Jiddu Krishnamurti books. If you are the shit then it shouldn't matter if you fight inside the ring or out. Don't give me the "I don't fight inside a ring" cop out bullshit.
I like Lewis's bluntness because he doesn't sugar coat anything like so many other friends of Bruce do.
Joe didn't say that JKD was crap it was actually Howard "Flashpoint" Williams who said it was garbage. JKD is fundamentally flawed and I believe Joe saw those flaws in his training sessions with Bruce. JKD is based on Boxing, Wing Chun, and Fencing with some wrestling in there. The problem is the Wing Chun trapping nonsense doesn't work in a real fight. Joe is right; if you have time to trap you have time to hit. You're going to try and trap Mike Tyson throwing a hook at you? You'll get knocked the fuck out. While Fencing is good for forward and backward movement it's flawed in it's lateral movement. All a trained fighter would need to do is angle on that fencing stuff with lateral movement and counter with a hook or cut kick and it's bye bye baby.
That's exactly what I'm doing and the conclusion is JKD isn't as great as people make it out to be.
There are better stuff out there that is more fundamentally sound to try over JKD.
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The Dark Mind said:
I don't think Lewis would have reason to lie. Lewis is a cut to the chase kind of man. He was already a recognized World Champion before his meetings with Bruce. In reality Lewis didn't really need Bruce.
Brother Blues said:
Nothing at all mis-leading about the title. Lewis trained with Lee and has the credentials therefore his "opinion" holds more weight than some person writing a book that never trained with Bruce.
hoodlikegaza said:
Various people who knew Bruce would tell you that he was cocky and arrogant.
Bullshit! Bruce didn't even have a spiritual approach toward anything until he started reading Jiddu Krishnamurti books then jacked that and added that to JKD. Bruce wanted to be a movie star and used Martial arts as a stepping stone to get into films which is why he taught a lot of Hollywood actors the so-called sacred art. I don't buy into this spiritual spin nonsense. Lee was a walking contradiction plain and simple and how did I know some "white devil" drivel would be added to this discussion. It's always about the white man huh?
The point is to get Lewis to share his Bruce Lee experiences (since Lewis rarely gives interviews) and therefore the questions are focused on that aspect.
Being that Lewis was a established world champion before he even met Bruce I would be skeptical too. Lewis had already gone out and done it. Bruce was still learning how to kick properly.
Again with the white devil nonsense. Lewis has the credentials to say whatever the fuck he wants and not lose any sleep over it. Tell them how you really feel man.
Ming Fei Hong said:
bromack1 said:
Bruce was the first cat to start the concept of mixing styles which is what the UFC is founded on. I'll give Bruce credit for that, but as far as being this great fighter, hell no.
djdez said:white people have no shame...
It's all about the white man huh?
Makkonnen said:
Finally someone gets it.
ICEBURG SLIM said:
Yeah a Bruce/Bolo finale would've been a better fight. John Saxon beating Bolo was some bullshit and Han beating Jim Kelly was some bullshit.
Solomon Grundy said:
Hell yeah. He would've knocked Royce the fuck out. That's my opinion.
Obviously I was stating an opinion and nobody knows 100%, however I feel confidently that Lewis would own Gracie.
Lewis knew, wrestling, Karate and Western Kickboxing which is a mix of Boxing and Muay Thai. Lewis knew multiple styles. Bruce was just the first to bring it to the mainstream.
I give Bruce credit for his promotion of Martial arts and bringing it mainstream.
[
Not even close. Joe would knock Bruce the fuck out and not blink an eye about it and that's the honest truth.[/QUOTE]
I am confused, if Joe would have knocked Bruce out why was Bruce instructing him. Why did Joe acknowledge Bruce as his teacher.
I have read many interviews that Joe Lewis has done about Bruce Lee and he has always been very respectful and I even remember one where he said folks like Chuck Norris popping shit that they could be Bruce were walking very gingerly around him when he was alive.
I read this interview twice because its not well executed or written and I would really like to hear the actual tapes before I criticize Joe or even condemn him. I am sure alot of the interview and the nuances were left out.
But even taken it as is all I think Joe is saying now that he is older and has seen the Legend of Bruce Lee grow from great Martial artist to this unbeatable force of nature is that Bruce was human and that like Ali or Tyson or event eh Sugar ray Robinson or the original Joe Louis, given the right set of circumstances he could probably be beaten and that he had flaws.
As the biggest bruce Lee fan in the world it is refreshing to hear because as a big guy I know there are not too many 135lb men that can knock me out with one punch but like Joe Lewis said Bruce would out quick me and with his explosiveness and a combination of kicks and punches, if I couldnt grab him I would be dead.
ALso Lewis analogy about martial arts changing, Bruce would have gotten more and more away from trad Chines martial arts and more into Reality based martial Arts not the MMA stuff. Bruce was a street fighter and he would have looked at things that would have worked in a street fight.
Last point, Joe was not with Bruce all the time and Joe's world was the ring, Bruce was a street fighter and his primary opponents were other chinese martial artist of similar size and weight so he was quite masterful and taking down these clowns on a regular basis. It was during one of these fights that he realized that Wing Chun was just not effective in a street fight and cause him to first develop Jun Fan kung Fu and later JKD.
Not even close. Joe would knock Bruce the fuck out and not blink an eye about it and that's the honest truth.[/QUOTE]
I am confused, if Joe would have knocked Bruce out why was Bruce instructing him. Why did Joe acknowledge Bruce as his teacher.
I have read many interviews that Joe Lewis has done about Bruce Lee and he has always been very respectful and I even remember one where he said folks like Chuck Norris popping shit that they could be Bruce were walking very gingerly around him when he was alive.
I read this interview twice because its not well executed or written and I would really like to hear the actual tapes before I criticize Joe or even condemn him. I am sure alot of the interview and the nuances were left out.
But even taken it as is all I think Joe is saying now that he is older and has seen the Legend of Bruce Lee grow from great Martial artist to this unbeatable force of nature is that Bruce was human and that like Ali or Tyson or event eh Sugar ray Robinson or the original Joe Louis, given the right set of circumstances he could probably be beaten and that he had flaws.
As the biggest bruce Lee fan in the world it is refreshing to hear because as a big guy I know there are not too many 135lb men that can knock me out with one punch but like Joe Lewis said Bruce would out quick me and with his explosiveness and a combination of kicks and punches, if I couldnt grab him I would be dead.
ALso Lewis analogy about martial arts changing, Bruce would have gotten more and more away from trad Chines martial arts and more into Reality based martial Arts not the MMA stuff. Bruce was a street fighter and he would have looked at things that would have worked in a street fight.
Last point, Joe was not with Bruce all the time and Joe's world was the ring, Bruce was a street fighter and his primary opponents were other chinese martial artist of similar size and weight so he was quite masterful and taking down these clowns on a regular basis. It was during one of these fights that he realized that Wing Chun was just not effective in a street fight and cause him to first develop Jun Fan kung Fu and later JKD.
wildlover85 said:
The fantasies continue.
Winslow Wong said:
The impression I got from the interview was that Lewis most likely knew deep inside that he could beat Bruce but respected what Bruce had to offer because after all why shit on someone who wants to share something with you. Keep in mind Bruce went after Joe not the other way around and on top of that had to be convinced that Bruce had something to offer. As far as the teacher stuff I think he was just trying to be respectful.
Lewis was respectful of Bruce, however I'm glad he cleared up some misconceptions about how great Bruce really was.
There are no tapes because this interview was conducted in a chat room. It is what it is.
The impression I got was that Joe was saying that Bruce was a great martial artist, but not a great fighter.
I'm glad that you see the truth for what it is. Bruce isn't knocking anyone out with one punch. Looks good in the movies though.
MMA stuff is reality based. Are you telling me Muay Thai doesn't work in a streetfight or Boxing?
Apparently a lot of stuff in JKD wasn't effective in the ring either.
Mastermind2002 said:
I'm a fan of Bruce Lee and a "disciple" of his fighting methods. I would never say Bruce was the "greatest" fighter in the world. Truth be told, he was a man short in stature standing only 5'8".
However, he's called "Master Bruce Lee" because of his experience and depth of knowledge. Perhaps not the greatest "fighter" in the world, but you would definitely call him the greatest "coach" any martial artist could ever have.
Bruce Lee's contribution was based on the idea of replacing "classical" training processes with more practical and efficient responses. One of the basic principles of JKD is economy of motion. Why use three separate movements when only one is required.
It still tickles me when hearing Bruce say things like, use an eye poke or bite.... its faster....
Winslow Wong said:
I am confused, if Joe would have knocked Bruce out why was Bruce instructing him. Why did Joe acknowledge Bruce as his teacher.
.[/QUOTE]
You make some very fine points.
Bruce had the right idea by noticing Wing Chun wasn't very efficient in street fighting. No man in his right mind that holds a black belt, wants to watch all the bravo fade away in a scuffle with a petty street thug.
Regardless of what Joe Lewis says, I'm sure he would agree that Bruce was one helluva coach. Bruces legacy to the Joe Lewis's, Chuck Norris's and others was, he taught them to "think" outside the box.
In my opinion, thats what I think JKD is...simply learning how to think outside the box. Bruce described JKD as the "form" without any "form." JKD was supposed to continue its evolution well past Bruce's death.... and it has.
to Mastermind2002,
i have been a bruce lee fan
for 30 years
you tell me what i said was untrue
i have seen
50 fights
from the 60s
white boys from that time could
fight other white boys
because they had the same skills
you put bruce in there
he would have mop the floor whith them cats
bruce look at martial arts
as part of a life style
whites use the arts for Destructive puropes.
i have been a bruce lee fan
for 30 years
you tell me what i said was untrue
i have seen
50 fights
from the 60s
white boys from that time could
fight other white boys
because they had the same skills
you put bruce in there
he would have mop the floor whith them cats
bruce look at martial arts
as part of a life style
whites use the arts for Destructive puropes.
Mastermind2002 said:The impression I got from the interview was that Lewis most likely knew deep inside that he could beat Bruce but respected what Bruce had to offer because after all why shit on someone who wants to share something with you. Keep in mind Bruce went after Joe not the other way around and on top of that had to be convinced that Bruce had something to offer. As far as the teacher stuff I think he was just trying to be respectful.
Lewis was respectful of Bruce, however I'm glad he cleared up some misconceptions about how great Bruce really was.
There are no tapes because this interview was conducted in a chat room. It is what it is.
The impression I got was that Joe was saying that Bruce was a great martial artist, but not a great fighter.
I'm glad that you see the truth for what it is. Bruce isn't knocking anyone out with one punch. Looks good in the movies though.
MMA stuff is reality based. Are you telling me Muay Thai doesn't work in a streetfight or Boxing?
Apparently a lot of stuff in JKD wasn't effective in the ring either.
I am glad we had a chance to discuss this in a manner that also honest debate and respect opinion.
So to that end, i am glad yo told me this was a chat room discussion so it puts it int another context. Like a audio tape those are his words unedited and I can live with it. Joe is older now and probably more retrospective.
I think what would be helpful is to begin to realize that a ring fighter views fighting different than a martial artist and/or a street fighter. A ring fighter has to employ strategy that will defeat his opponent and impress the judges in case it has to go to the cards. He is not allowed to use certain blows or techniques that are deemed illegal.
A street fighter has a whole other set of concerns including his possible death if shit doesn't go his way. He is not interest in impressing anyone and his goal is to get out as quickly and effectively as possible.
A martial artist is looking at advancing his skills and continuing the growth of the art and instructing new acolytes to the art. Bruse Lee was a great martial artist, he was known as an effective street fighter and he had a non existent role ion ring fighting.
Joe may be right Bruce's body may not have been built for the ring becasue that was not his goal. He wasnt interest i taking body shots for 12 rounds the way a boxer or ring fighter must do , he didnt build up his neck muscles as ring figher should do to prevent knock out.
Bruce built his body to be an effective, explosive fighting machine that wasnt going to go 12 rounds with anyone but was going to get in and get out as quick as possible with simple but effective techniques.
Could Bruce have been a great ring fighter, I think so. The man was a fitness animal, given the right training with like Joe said and Angelo dundee he would have changed his body to be more effective in the ring. He would have thickened his neck and his torso so that he could absorb body blows or head shots. Fighters like MIke Tyson that are born with fighter body's are a rarity most fighters have to build thier bodies to become ring ready. Bruce could have done and what would have happened from there is just speculation at this point.
Last thing, I know many people consider Muay Thai a MMA style but its not it is a trad martial arts style that is just very effective and done in combat has devastating effect.
Thanks for the reposting the interview, it has been enlightening.
btw my avatar is of Bruce from the 1968 movie Marlow in which he played Winslow Wong...
bromack1 said:
I can agree with that.
The economy of motion is flawed as it's principles come from Wing Chun. It stresses a direct/straight attack, but in a real fight an opponent moves lateral as well as forward and backward. If all your attacks are based on a straight attack concept someone can angle on you and make you fall back with a counter hook. Bruce later his JKD development was getting away from the principles of Wing Chun and moving toward Boxing principles.
I will give Bruce credit for understanding the knowledge that the only way to truly learn and improve as a fighter is to train with alive targets in mind. Hitting a heavy bag or doing a kata all day isn't going to improve you as a fighter. You have to get in there and spar and test out techniques. That's alive training!
Yeah, sorry Bruce but I rather just knock the guy out.
wildlover85 said:
Bruce used Martial Arts as a stepping stone to a acting career. Hardly honorable purposes. You say that whites use Martial arts for destructive purposes when Chinese have been doing that for centuries. Ever heard of Pak Mei? Do some research and learn how he betrayed and sold out the whole southern Shaolin Temple to the Qing Dynasty imperial regime. Properly honoring Martial Arts has nothing to do with race but rather the individual.
bromack1 said:
Thank God. What's interesting is according to Jim Kelly his character Williams was at first suppose to be the one that lived and John Saxon's character Roper was suppose to die. However Saxon started whining to his agent that if his character died he wasn't going to be in the film so they changed the script and Jim Kelly was the odd man out.
I'm the odd man out here. I'm just trying to learn stuff here.
If possible could Winslow Wong and Mastermind2002 answer some questions for me?
1. So you're saying there's a difference between training for street fighting and ring fighting.
2. So does this mean that a person who would win in a ring wouldn't necessarily beat that same person in a street fight??
Wow! This is EXTREMELY interesting!
3. I've always been interested in the whole "economy of motion" thing. But what you say here seems to make a whole lot of sense. Has this ever been tested in real life (real fighting or sparring)???
4. Is Wing Chun an ineffective way of fighting? What about Jeet Kun Do? Is one good and not the other, or are they both bad? I was wondering because I thought Chinese used Wing Chun at one time to defend themselves.
5. Is JKD that different from Wing Chun?
6. How far was he moving away do you think?
Thank you. Look forward to your answers.
If possible could Winslow Wong and Mastermind2002 answer some questions for me?
Winslow Wong said:
1. So you're saying there's a difference between training for street fighting and ring fighting.
2. So does this mean that a person who would win in a ring wouldn't necessarily beat that same person in a street fight??
Mastermind2002 said:
Wow! This is EXTREMELY interesting!
3. I've always been interested in the whole "economy of motion" thing. But what you say here seems to make a whole lot of sense. Has this ever been tested in real life (real fighting or sparring)???
4. Is Wing Chun an ineffective way of fighting? What about Jeet Kun Do? Is one good and not the other, or are they both bad? I was wondering because I thought Chinese used Wing Chun at one time to defend themselves.
5. Is JKD that different from Wing Chun?
Mastermind2002 said:
6. How far was he moving away do you think?
Thank you. Look forward to your answers.
Winslow Wong said:
Exactly, which is why I posted the interview in the first place. Honest discussion rather than the 'Bruce is the greatest don't shit on his grave' nonsense.
Indeed ring fighting isn't streetfighting however I don't think if Lewis is in a streetfight he suddenly forgets how to kick someone in the nuts.
When your life is on the line in the street I'm sure a ring fighter isn't thinking about impressing judges. Fighters know the difference and adjust their strategy accordingly.
A lot of fighters are effective street fighters if who you're fighting is average bums. I highly doubt Bruce ran across Joe Lewis types in the street. I actually wish Bruce would've gotten into the ring because it would've improved him more as a fighter. He would've learned a lot.
I understand that but believe that if he built his body up like a boxer he would've been that much more amazing.
I agree and think it would've made Bruce a better overall fighter.
MMA's foundation is a combination of Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Brazilian Ju Jitsu just as JKD was a combination of Boxing, Wing Chun, and fencing.
No Problem.
to Mastermind2002 ,
1) You say that whites use Martial arts for destructive purposes when Chinese have been doing that for centuries. Ever heard of Pak Mei?
A.whites do use Martial arts for destructive purposes
ufc,military training,police training
B.i never heard of Pak Mei
i got to get back to you on that
2.Bruce used Martial Arts as a stepping stone to a acting career
i got disagree with you on that
bruce got in Martial Arts in 1948
his acting caree begin in 1941
his Martial Art move was shown in 1966
25 years
3. Properly honoring Martial Arts has nothing to do with race but rather the individual.
if you was raise on Martial Arts
you will treat it like a life style
if you learn as a adult
you will look at totally different.
1) You say that whites use Martial arts for destructive purposes when Chinese have been doing that for centuries. Ever heard of Pak Mei?
A.whites do use Martial arts for destructive purposes
ufc,military training,police training
B.i never heard of Pak Mei
i got to get back to you on that
2.Bruce used Martial Arts as a stepping stone to a acting career
i got disagree with you on that
bruce got in Martial Arts in 1948
his acting caree begin in 1941
his Martial Art move was shown in 1966
25 years
3. Properly honoring Martial Arts has nothing to do with race but rather the individual.
if you was raise on Martial Arts
you will treat it like a life style
if you learn as a adult
you will look at totally different.
Mastermind2002 said:
The tao of jeet kune do mentioned all fighting styles that bruce had knowledge of. That included Muy Thai and capieora.
As a matter of fact, Fists of Fury had Bruce Lee fighting Thai Boxers. If you recall one scene, he used elbow techniques to block kicks.
But lets keep it real. This was a choreographed movie.
Sorry if you think I'm disagreeing with you.... but Bruce Lee is one of my personal heros along with Malcolm X. Combined, these two guys lives were about "personal transformation", and how to achieve it.
The Dark Mind said:
I will attempt to answer a few of these and I hope mastermind weighs in also.
first question, the training in street fighting and ring fighting should be the same, stamina and fitness should be paramount in both then good technique.
Now in my opinion the break between ring fighting and street fighting separates at the goals of your training. I am not going to repeat myself you can read what the goals are above in my previous post but because of the different goals, a street fighter is looking to end the fight as quickly as possible by whatever means necessary.
A street fight is never fair so your training should involve weapons, terrain changes, and "dirty fighting". Above all awareness training, I have personal experience of being in a street fight and having the friend of the guy I was fighting slash my back with a knife to my surprise. My lack of awareness of a hidden companion almost cost me my life, fortunately, my friend headed this guy off before he stabbed me, with a chair across the buddy's head.
second question, absolutely a fighter who would lose in a ring fight may be able to kick the ass of the winner in a street fight, it's a whole different set of dynamics.
Now let me make one caveat, when I am talking street fight I am not necessarily talking about two nonfighters who get drunk and push and shove each other. I am talking about people who know the ins and out of effective street fighting.
I will let mastermind take it from here
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The Dark Mind said:
The only difference is the strategy, mindset and what's at stake which is your life.
If Tyson is knocking someone out in the ring he's going to do the same thing in a streetfight. The only difference is he may do it faster and then continue to beat the shit out of him when their unconscious. Bottom line, if you know how to fight it doesn't matter if it's in the ring or outside of it.
Of course. Bruce tested it out himself which is what led to him getting away from that nonsense. I read this interview a while back where it was said that Bruce barely beat this fighter using Wing Chun and later commented saying if he knew how to throw an uppercut from boxing he would've ended the fight a lot faster.
Wing Chun is horrible. You use that shit in the street and you're getting knock the fuck out.
The Chinese used weapons like swords and spears as their first line of defense. Hand to hand combat was a last resort and usually when it got to that you were fucked.
Yes it's different in that JKD is a combination of boxing, Wing Chun and fencing and Wing Chun is a just a straight line way of fighting.
I think Bruce would've eventually gotten rid of Wing Chun altogether and focused more on boxing and Muay Thai with some Ju Jitsu thrown in there somewhere.
Damn, nigga, you trying to expose a dead man, what's next, you gonna try and revive Cam'Ron as being a legitimate rapper?
bromack1 said:
No need to apologize as we're having an honest discussion which is the purpose of all this. I personally have a lot of respect for both Malcolm X and Bruce Lee and appreciate what they accomplished in life. I just believe it's important to look at all men from all angles both positive and negative and not get locked into a 'idol mentality'.
Agallah005 said:
Ignorance at it's finest.
Mastermind2002 said:The only difference is the strategy, mindset and what's at stake which is your life.
Agree, somewhat -
If Tyson is knocking someone out in the ring he's going to do the same thing in a streetfight. The only difference is he may do it faster and then continue to beat the shit out of him when their unconscious. Bottom line, if you know how to fight it doesn't matter if it's in the ring or outside of it.
mastermind- that is a bit simplistic, Mike Tyson would have been the first one to tell you there were cats on the street he didnt want to run up on because he knew there were no Marquis of Queensbury rules. Speaking of Tyson go back to his fight with Mitch Blood Green where when confront he turned and knocked him out as quick as he could and got out of there. Blood Green said Tyson cheap shot'd him but no such thing as a cheap shot in a street fight.
Of course. Bruce tested it out himself which is what led to him getting away from that nonsense. I read this interview a while back where it was said that Bruce barely beat this fighter using Wing Chun and later commented saying if he knew how to throw an uppercut from boxing he would've ended the fight a lot faster.
That was his fight with Martial artist Wo Ming and caused him to question wing chun.
Wing Chun is horrible. You use that shit in the street and you're getting knock the fuck out.
We have to disagree studied Wing Chun for years and have used it in fights before looking at more reality based fighting techniques. the use of "sticky hands" and trapping thechniques has allowed me to "control" adversaries in close quarters and defuse situation because of the reality that they are over whelm. would I have been able to do it to Joe Lewis or a Muay thai fighter, I doubt it but wing chun is not horrible its just a bow and arrow in an uzi world..the shit can still kill you but you are in need of an upgrade.
The Chinese used weapons like swords and spears as their first line of defense. Hand to hand combat was a last resort and usually when it got to that you were fucked.
Yes it's different in that JKD is a combination of boxing, Wing Chun and fencing and Wing Chun is a just a straight line way of fighting.
I think Bruce would've eventually gotten rid of Wing Chun altogether and focused more on boxing and Muay Thai with some Ju Jitsu thrown in there somewhere.
Lets not forget the influence that savate played on Bruce also. A little known art but Bruce was introduced to it and some of its principles.
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