If Obama wins... will the "the man" excuses stop?
- Thread starter wutamess
- Start date
for 250 years we were slaves. For 100 years we had no rights. Its only within the last 50 years that we had the right to vote. That being said everything that occurred in the past has resulted in the present. Wealth in the black community is new. Do you think Paris Hilton would be rich now if her lineage didn't have the ability to build wealth over the last hundred years? What about kellogs, coke, dupont, hersheys and budweiset. Whites have had access to capital for Manu generations. The same cannot be said of blacks. We are doing better today but dont get it twisted. We are not yet equal.
Never said we were.
Just said to stop using the past as an excuse to not handle your business today. That's all.
How timely: (concerning schools)
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080411/D8VVKG700.html
Apr 11, 7:11 AM (ET)
By JIM KUHNHENN
GARY, Ind. (AP) - The standard Barack Obama venue lately has been high schools. Truman High School, Theodore Roosevelt High School, Jefferson High School.
The Democratic presidential candidate has been pitching an audience-pleasing message of economic populism to crowds of a few thousand packed into each gymnasium. But he gets some of his loudest applause when he segues to education - and a bit of a lecture to mothers and fathers on how to be parents.
Sure, there is the usual critique of current government policies. But the cheering peaks with a dose of tough talk.
"Parents if you don't parent, we can't improve our schools," he said. "You've got to parent. You've got to turn off the television set in your house once in a while, you've got to put the video game away once in a while."
Obama, who aspires to be the first black president, dwells a little longer on the subject with predominantly black audiences, as he did Thursday in this economically struggling city in the south shore of Lake Michigan.
"You should have a curfew in your house so your children aren't out in the streets all night. You should meet with the teacher and find out what the homework is and help that child with the homework. And if you don't know how to do the homework, don't be embarrassed, find someone to help you."
"Fathers, be fathers," he added. "Be a part of your child's life. Be a part of your child's life and try to make them proud.
"And the last thing is, if your child is misbehaving at school don't curse out the teacher. You know who you are. It's not the teacher's fault that your child is misbehaving. That's some home training."
The crowd reacted raucously and Obama laughed. "You know what I say is true, though. Don't blame the teachers, and the government and the schools if you're not doing your job."
Obama's self-help message has a broader political appeal, blending a socially conservative solution with his more liberal view that government can and should do more to improve the lot of Americans. And the appeal to fathers is rooted in his own experience, a doting father himself who was raised by his mother and a grandmother after his father left the family when he was 2.
For Obama - and for voters - his race has a double edge. In the speech on race on March 18, he noted that he has been variously deemed "too black" or "not black enough." In primary after primary, he wins the vast share of the black vote. Yet his race also represents a transitional, even historic, moment for the country and the presidential contest so far proves he has defied simple racial pigeonholing.
So while Obama may be the politician with the best credentials to speak candidly and admonish the black community, he also has worked vigorously to present himself as the presidential candidate who happens to be black rather than the black candidate.
Obama can display a comfortable ease with an audience and can riff off a crowd, no matter the skin hue. But these freelance exchanges are all the more noticeable when he is speaking to blacks - and he gets away with stereotypes that might cause offense coming from another candidate.
He'll make reference to "cousin Pookie" - a fictional layabout whom he urges supporters to "get off the couch."
Asked Thursday by a student in Gary to discuss the shrinking value of the dollar, Obama said it was a symptom of a trade imbalance and a burgeoning debt.
"We've been borrowing money like nobody's business from China," he said. "We're like that cousin who always comes and never seems to have a job. He's out there buying new rims on his car, but can't pay the rent."
In white suburban schools in Pennsylvania and Indiana, he offers sobering words for college-bound students, whom he says on the one hand want affordable education but also expect colleges to provide a high quality of life.
"You're going to have to be better consumers of higher education," he told one student in Malvern, Pa., who said she faced a $45,000 a year tuition. "When I was going to school, we knew the food was going to be bad. The gym didn't have all the state of the art Nautilus equipment."
In Lafayette, Ind., Thursday evening, he expanded, sounding much like a parent at the dinner table.
"There are kids in China and India who are learning an awful lot of math and an awful lot of science with facilities that are a lot worse than the ones we have," he said. "And we have to keep that in mind when we're shopping for schools and encouraging school administrators to cut out the frills."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080411/D8VVKG700.html
Apr 11, 7:11 AM (ET)
By JIM KUHNHENN
GARY, Ind. (AP) - The standard Barack Obama venue lately has been high schools. Truman High School, Theodore Roosevelt High School, Jefferson High School.
The Democratic presidential candidate has been pitching an audience-pleasing message of economic populism to crowds of a few thousand packed into each gymnasium. But he gets some of his loudest applause when he segues to education - and a bit of a lecture to mothers and fathers on how to be parents.
Sure, there is the usual critique of current government policies. But the cheering peaks with a dose of tough talk.
"Parents if you don't parent, we can't improve our schools," he said. "You've got to parent. You've got to turn off the television set in your house once in a while, you've got to put the video game away once in a while."
Obama, who aspires to be the first black president, dwells a little longer on the subject with predominantly black audiences, as he did Thursday in this economically struggling city in the south shore of Lake Michigan.
"You should have a curfew in your house so your children aren't out in the streets all night. You should meet with the teacher and find out what the homework is and help that child with the homework. And if you don't know how to do the homework, don't be embarrassed, find someone to help you."
"Fathers, be fathers," he added. "Be a part of your child's life. Be a part of your child's life and try to make them proud.
"And the last thing is, if your child is misbehaving at school don't curse out the teacher. You know who you are. It's not the teacher's fault that your child is misbehaving. That's some home training."
The crowd reacted raucously and Obama laughed. "You know what I say is true, though. Don't blame the teachers, and the government and the schools if you're not doing your job."
Obama's self-help message has a broader political appeal, blending a socially conservative solution with his more liberal view that government can and should do more to improve the lot of Americans. And the appeal to fathers is rooted in his own experience, a doting father himself who was raised by his mother and a grandmother after his father left the family when he was 2.
For Obama - and for voters - his race has a double edge. In the speech on race on March 18, he noted that he has been variously deemed "too black" or "not black enough." In primary after primary, he wins the vast share of the black vote. Yet his race also represents a transitional, even historic, moment for the country and the presidential contest so far proves he has defied simple racial pigeonholing.
So while Obama may be the politician with the best credentials to speak candidly and admonish the black community, he also has worked vigorously to present himself as the presidential candidate who happens to be black rather than the black candidate.
Obama can display a comfortable ease with an audience and can riff off a crowd, no matter the skin hue. But these freelance exchanges are all the more noticeable when he is speaking to blacks - and he gets away with stereotypes that might cause offense coming from another candidate.
He'll make reference to "cousin Pookie" - a fictional layabout whom he urges supporters to "get off the couch."
Asked Thursday by a student in Gary to discuss the shrinking value of the dollar, Obama said it was a symptom of a trade imbalance and a burgeoning debt.
"We've been borrowing money like nobody's business from China," he said. "We're like that cousin who always comes and never seems to have a job. He's out there buying new rims on his car, but can't pay the rent."
In white suburban schools in Pennsylvania and Indiana, he offers sobering words for college-bound students, whom he says on the one hand want affordable education but also expect colleges to provide a high quality of life.
"You're going to have to be better consumers of higher education," he told one student in Malvern, Pa., who said she faced a $45,000 a year tuition. "When I was going to school, we knew the food was going to be bad. The gym didn't have all the state of the art Nautilus equipment."
In Lafayette, Ind., Thursday evening, he expanded, sounding much like a parent at the dinner table.
"There are kids in China and India who are learning an awful lot of math and an awful lot of science with facilities that are a lot worse than the ones we have," he said. "And we have to keep that in mind when we're shopping for schools and encouraging school administrators to cut out the frills."
Didn't get a chance to catch it but you have my interest.
Googled it and came up with this... from here: http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/09/871609.aspx
--- Dear Panel,
I teach special education English and History in South Bend,Indiana. I have to beg my black students every day to come to school. They are smart, but will not acknowledge their responsibility to receive an education.
These kids have more opportunities in our high school than anyone could imagine. My students want to fail and brag about their arrest records, and living at juvenile centers. This year will be my 39th year as a teacher. I have no hope for these students, yet I go every day, and they call me names etc. and put their heads on their desks because they have no bedtime and ride around shooting at other cars all night.
---
---
I am white. I teach at a prdominately black school. I have been here 24 years and I love my students. My heart breaks though, to watch them not taking advantage of the education being offered to them. We beg parents to come to conferences.We send transportation for those who will come. We reward the children for the slightest bit of good behavior or positive attitude because "their home life is not what it needs to be" I'm the P.E.teacher so I teach every child every day. I do every thing I can to help them be successful. All the teachers at this school want the best for these children Less then 5% of our children come from two parent homes and too many chilren are at risk. I teach Bible School at the housing projects every summer and our church does Christmas for 200 children every year. I want to do these things. It's the right thing to do. Some child or a couple of parents a year call me a racist but I know all people are God's children.
---
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The small percentage of Blacks who are "doing well", hasn't changed, look thru history, those who may be, some of the ones doing well, are sparsly representing in the black population. That has always been, some 20%, give or take, for the most part, what the good ol' boys system will allow...
I find that extremely hard to believe. Reason being is that I recently moved to Indianapolis. 45% of the Black population of Indiana lives Indianapolis. South Bend is where Notre Dame is. It's not an urban area first of all. Hell, the only urban area that I've seen here IS Indianapolis. South Bend is a college town. and the guy who says he's a P.E. teacher. What school do YOU know that has P.E. EVERY day? I doubt very seriously that that story is true. VERY seriously. I'm going to go out on a limb here and call that poster a liar. Even if it were true, (which it is not), that would shoot a hole in your theory about inner city vs. suburban. South Bend, IN is not urban. So, if this account were true, that means African/Americans in the so called 'burbs' don't want to learn either. The reason that I posted about that show was to show that every person on that panel EVERY one of them said that the schools systems are in shambles(sp) in the inner cities. Whites and Blacks alike. The broad picture that you paint of Black youth is disturbing to me. It's like your intent on convincing someone that Blacks just simply don't want to learn. Like it's in bred or something. If you have time, google the "Black doll" test. Maybe it's called the 'doll test". Also, read up on the British slave master named Lynch. Before you holler that slavery is over, just read up on his method of immasculation of the "Black buck". Slavery (physical) ended in the 1800's. True enough. However, psychological slavery still exists. If you google the 'doll test' you'll see what I mean. Let's just say that the playing field became even in 1968 (purely hypothetical). Do you really think that the mental condiditoning of a people can be turned around TOTALLY in 40 years? You made a comment that my family 'make up' is a rarity in the Black community. That is so untrue. But, then again, how do YOU measure success? This point has been brought up on the board many times but, I'll mention it again. The fact that we even have a Black history month is a slap in the face. That implies that somehow OUR history is less than American. ex.: you're more apt to learn about Christian Barnhardt (the first person to successfully perform a heart transplant) or Dr. Jarvik (the first person to develop an artificial heart) than you are to learn about Dr. Daniel Hale Williams (the first person to successfully perform open heart surgery (an African American)). That's like talking about Neil Armstrong walking on the moon without talking about John Glenn. The contributions of African Americans are not even talked about now in school. From day one. you're taught about Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell. You ask a white person who Benjamin Banneker is or George Washington Carver or Garrett Agustus Morgan. 99.9% of them will say, who? You may argue, 'well, why don't young Blacks look it up'? Why should they have to? You dam sure don't have to do much 'lookin' up' to know who Benjamin Franklin was. Blacks and Whites alike should know the accomplishments of Blacks to this society. Then, Whites and Blacks alike would look at Black society in America differently. I can hear them now. Wow! I didn't know Black people did THAT.
This shit is laughable. So, now thay have drive bys in South Bend, IN? You should be ashamed of yourself for even posting this bullshit. I don't care what color you are. You should know dam well they don't have drive bys in South Bend, IN. And bragging about what arrest records? Ain't nothin' in South Bend but, Notre Dame. Did they get arrested for beating up the mascot? Come at me better then that my man. Again, this story is made up (I'm not saying YOU made it up) but, it's made up nonetheless. That would be headline news and you know it.
got this off of a South Bend blog:
My conclusion:
Fort Wayne is somewhat more thriving and built-up and has more things to do in the city itself, and is probably a little more open-minded over all (less racial tensions, less racist police, etc.). South Bend is closer to Chicago, and South Bend has a smaller-town community feel with lots of tradition, and the city itself is fairly integrated (schools, etc).
I can honestly say either city is a decent choice, but if you move to the South Bend area, I would STRONGLY recommend you live in South Bend itself or Granger, or possibly Northern Mishawaka. (Mishawaka south of Jefferson Street, as well as Osceola, Elkhart, and Goshen to the east, are quite racist and narrow-minded, with a lot of ku klux klan presence as well.)
http://www.city-data.com/forum/indiana/91519-fort-wayne-vs-south-bend-5.html
Now, (wutamess) should we take your teachers assessment with a grain of salt or what?
My conclusion:
Fort Wayne is somewhat more thriving and built-up and has more things to do in the city itself, and is probably a little more open-minded over all (less racial tensions, less racist police, etc.). South Bend is closer to Chicago, and South Bend has a smaller-town community feel with lots of tradition, and the city itself is fairly integrated (schools, etc).
I can honestly say either city is a decent choice, but if you move to the South Bend area, I would STRONGLY recommend you live in South Bend itself or Granger, or possibly Northern Mishawaka. (Mishawaka south of Jefferson Street, as well as Osceola, Elkhart, and Goshen to the east, are quite racist and narrow-minded, with a lot of ku klux klan presence as well.)
http://www.city-data.com/forum/indiana/91519-fort-wayne-vs-south-bend-5.html
Now, (wutamess) should we take your teachers assessment with a grain of salt or what?
1) I can't believe you're not open to the fact that a teacher knows what he or she sees everyday. Instead you immediately discredit what she/he is saying just to satisfy your argument. Maybe they're lying but I doubt that the statistics that support their claim are in the wrong also.
2) Most of your family being highly educated is a rarity in the black community. Don't believe me? Check your (black) friends family educational history and see how many college grads there are.
3) I had PE everyday in high school. Also, maybe the gym teacher was generalizing when he said teach them every single day.
4) STOP MAKING FUGGIN excuses! For you to believe they just make this stuff up out of the thin air is just narrow minded. You might not want to believe it's happening but THEY'RE amongst it & live it. We're just talking about little South Bend. Now think about bigger inner cities (KCMO) where the grad rate is 50%. maybe you don't see it as the norm because your family is highly educated and stress it. On my dad's side it's not stressed and I can only imagine that my dad's side is the norm hence the < 50% grad rate in the inner city. Not saying they don't want to learn. THEY JUST AREN'T.
5) As far as your "blue eye brown eye type" tests and Willie Lynch stuff... That's old news. Still time to move on. I've repeatedly said the thought process will die off with generation to generation. It'll get better slowly but surely.
6) Agree with your black history month assessment. I hate the symbolism of the month. Really stupid to me. The shortest month of the year is recognized as the "black month". YIPPEEEEE!
7) Burbs or not... the non-education of the black family is a growing epidemic. I'm sure with just a little googling yourself you can find statistics that support the claim about the black family and non-education.
The teacher(S) may be lying, but I doubt they'd get on a board system just to make up stuff out of the blue. Can you at least acknowledge that much? I'd be more inclined to believe someone that's living it (even if they're lying and from my own experiences) than some INet/ city data records.
Dropping out is a problem for many urban high schools across the country. In Washington, D.C., a report is out today that shows that 17 of the nation’s 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50%.
The Bush administration says it will require states to report high school graduation rates in a uniform way instead of using a variety of methods that critics say are often based on unreliable information.
The report by the America’s Promise Alliance, using a common method to evaluate graduation rates for cities, found the lowest graduation rates in Detroit, Indianapolis and Cleveland. L.A. Unified was ninth, with a 45.3% graduation rate, in 2003-04. The report found that students in suburban and rural public high schools were more likely to graduate than their counterparts in urban public high schools.
Nationally, about 70% of U.S. students graduate on time with a regular diploma; about 1.2 million students drop out annually.
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, founding chair of the alliance, called the situation a "catastrophe."
The Bush administration says it will require states to report high school graduation rates in a uniform way instead of using a variety of methods that critics say are often based on unreliable information.
The report by the America’s Promise Alliance, using a common method to evaluate graduation rates for cities, found the lowest graduation rates in Detroit, Indianapolis and Cleveland. L.A. Unified was ninth, with a 45.3% graduation rate, in 2003-04. The report found that students in suburban and rural public high schools were more likely to graduate than their counterparts in urban public high schools.
Nationally, about 70% of U.S. students graduate on time with a regular diploma; about 1.2 million students drop out annually.
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, founding chair of the alliance, called the situation a "catastrophe."
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Here's one that city-data didn't show:
http://southbend.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm
Looks like SB is ahead of the countries murder, rape, robbery, burglary, larceny, vehicular theft curve.
I tend to believe the teacher.
http://southbend.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm
Looks like SB is ahead of the countries murder, rape, robbery, burglary, larceny, vehicular theft curve.
I tend to believe the teacher.
believe on my man. I showed you the make up of SB. Don't forget. I live here. LOL! drive bys in South Bend. man, c'mon.
Dude, where do you think I live? LOL! In Beverly Hills? I say again, if you believe for one minute that they have drive bys in South Bend , IN. God bless you. that is so funny.
Are you really stuck on the drive bye's and not the message? Think outside the box for a sec and recognize that she exaggerated or maybe stretched the truth a little but her assessment about black kids not caring about education is dead on.
I left there 7 years ago (West Lafayette)... ignorance is everywhere. South Bend is no exception.
I gave you stats & a teacher from that there support what I've been telling you. You still argue those when they're right there in front of you.
That's the problem. While you're critiquing every little statement & argument you're not seeing the big picture. WE'RE LOST! At this point in our lives it's NOONE elses fault but OUR OWN. "The man" isn't making these kids not like/ not care about school. It's the parents/community.
It's the idolization of clothes, money, etc instead of an education (how this is blamed on "the man" I don't know). With an education, that stuff will come. How backwards are we that we're probably the only people that throw parties for people coming home from jail instead of college graduates? How backwards are we that I sit & listen to (suburban) black kids talk about what gun they're going to get instead of what college they'll want to attend at the basketball courts.
I'm done.
We'll just have to agree to disagree also.
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I never disputed the fact that inner city schools have a higher drop out rate. I disputed the reason. And again I say to you, your South Bend, IN claim throws your theory right out of the window. South Bend is not an urban area huss. I wonder how many minorities they have there. 30? maybe 40? And I agree with Gen. Powell. It is a catastrophe. My point is you're dam near tryin' to make it seem like it's genetic. (I'm answering more than one of your posts at a time). And you say check my Black friend's families? LOL! Dude you are comical. It's just the way you say things. Why can't I check my White friend's families too? I guess it's assumed that there families are successful huh? Well, how about this one, my best friend's uncle (Arnold "Jersey Joe Walcott" Cream) (google it playa if you don't believe me) was the heavyweight champion of the world. he was an Uncle to ALL of us. He's from Merchantville, NJ. My best friend is CSM(ret. Army) Wayne Cream. Another one of my friends is a very successful lawyer in D.C.. A graduate of Howard under grad, and went to Georgetown for law school. These are Brothers I grew up with. on the same street block. Do I need to go on? The vast majority of my "Black" friends are successful. Our parents instilled in us that college was the 13th grade. In other words, we didn't have a choice. We ALL went to school. Sure, I have a couple of 'friends' that went to jail. Maybe two or three. Oh, and do you want to know how many of my friends have played in the NBA or the NFL? Let's see, the NFL: Derek Ramsey, Art Still, Bubba Green, Dwight Hicks, Joe Fields... I can go on if you need me to. NBA: Milt Wagner, Billy Thompson, Willie Glass, etc., etc., etc. These are 'friends'. Not associates. (If you look them all up, you will see that these guys graduated between 1975 and about 1982. All from the Camden, NJ area) And this may surprise you, I grew up in an all Black neighborhood playa. Our original debate was on the unlevel playing field of education in inner city schools. Not wether or not there is a high drop out rate. And I think I proved my point(not your words) that not all Black men want an 84 caddie with rims on it. Jesus Christ. I hope that that wasn't a Black man that said that. You never told me if you googled the 'doll test' playa.
You can be done bruh, it's all good. But, "all the kids want to do is shoot at each other' was PART of the message. You can't say oh he's telling the 'absolute' truth when his statement is not 'absolutely' true. Like I said earlier my man. I'm from the city, I live in the city and always will live in the city. I ain't blind to a dam thing. Now i answered you once but, I'll let you know again. when I check my 'Black' friends (and I do mean freinds), I've grown up with doctors, lawyers, psychologists, architects, chiefs of police, fire chiefs, professional athletes, teachers, lawyers, engineers, carerr military men/women, bums, dope addicts and all. But, again, I grew up in an ALL BLACK neighborhood Homie. And I stress NEIGHBORHOOD. Where everybody's Mom was everybody elses Mom. And everybody's Dad was everybody elses Dad. And the vast majority of us are successful.
How convenient...
BREAKING NEWS: Officers Found Not Guilty In Sean Bell Case
POSTED: 8:40 am EDT April 25, 2008
UPDATED: 9:31 am EDT April 25, 2008
NEW YORK -- Three police detectives have been found not guilty of all charges in the shooting death of Sean Bell.
Officers Michael Oliver, Gescard Isnora and Marc Cooper were acquitted of all counts 17 months after Bell died in a hail of 50 police bullets. The unarmed man was shot coming out of a strip club just hours before he was to be married on Nov. 25, 2006.
# Verdict Sheet
Oliver, 36, and Isnora, 29, faced charges of manslaughter, assault and reckless endangerment. Cooper, 40, faced charges of reckless endangerment.
Justice Arthur Cooperman delivered the verdict in a Queens courtroom packed with spectators, including victim Sean Bell's fiancee and parents, as at least 200 people gathered outside the building.
The officers, complaining that pretrial publicity had unfairly painted them as cold-blooded killers, opted to have the judge decide the case rather than a jury.
Bell, a 23-year-old black man, was killed in a hail of gunfire outside a seedy strip club in Queens on Nov. 25, 2006 -- his wedding day -- as he was leaving his bachelor party with two friends.
Oliver squeezed off 31 shots; Isnora fired 11 rounds; and Cooper shot four times. Two other shooters weren't charged.
A conviction on manslaughter could have brought up to 25 years in prison; the penalty for reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor, is a year behind bars.
The case brought back painful memories of other NYPD shootings, such as the 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo -- an African immigrant who was gunned down in a hail of 41 bullets by police officers who mistook his wallet for a gun. The acquittal of the officers in that case created a storm of protest, with hundreds arrested after taking to the streets in demonstration.
The mood surrounding this case has been muted by comparison, although Bell's fiancee, parents and their supporters, including the Rev. Al Sharpton, have held rallies demanding that the officers -- two of whom are black -- be held accountable.
Dozens of people waiting outside the courthouse for the verdict began crying after hearing news of the acquittals. Some yelled, "No!" and briefly jostled with police officers.
The nearly two-month trial was marked by deeply divergent accounts on the part of defense lawyers and prosecutors.
The defense painted the victims as drunken thugs who the officers believed were armed and dangerous. Prosecutors sought to convince the judge that the victims had been minding their own business, and that the officers were inept, trigger-happy aggressors.
In his closing arguments, prosecutor Charles Testagrossa alluded to the starkly different views of the shooting.
"If you are a police officer or sympathetic to police officers, the defendants are tragic heroes and the victims are thugs," he said. "If you are friends of the victims, then the defendants are murderers."
None of the officers took the witness stand in his own defense.
Instead, Cooperman heard transcripts of the officers testifying before a grand jury, saying they believed they had good reason to use deadly force. The judge also heard testimony from Bell's two injured companions, who insisted the maelstrom erupted without warning.
Both sides were consistent on one point: The utter chaos surrounding the last moments of Bell's life.
"It happened so quick," Isnora in his grand jury testimony. "It was like the last thing I ever wanted to do."
Bell's companions -- Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman -- also offered dramatic testimony about the episode. Benefield and Guzman were both wounded; Guzman still has four bullets lodged in his body.
Referring to Isnora, Guzman said, "This dude is shooting like he's crazy, like he's out of his mind."
The victims and shooters were set on a fateful collision course by a pair of innocuous decisions: Bell's to have a last-minute bachelor party at Kalua Cabaret, and the undercover detectives' to investigate reports of prostitution at the club.
The party, according to Bell's friends, was boozy but uneventful. But the undercovers were jumpy.
"I felt uncomfortable," testified Detective Hispolito "Hip" Sanchez, who with Isnora posed as a patron that night. "I just didn't feel good about it."
As the club closed around 4 a.m., Sanchez and Isnora claimed they overheard Bell and his friends first flirt with women, then taunt a stranger who responded by putting his right hand in his pocket as if he had a gun. Guzman, they testified, said, "Yo, go get my gun" -- something Bell's friends denied.
Isnora said he decided to arm himself, call for backup -- "It's getting hot," he told his supervisor -- and tail Bell, Guzman and Benefield as they went around the corner and got into Bell's car. He claimed that after warning the men to halt, Bell pulled away, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van that converged on the scene with Oliver at the wheel.
The detective also alleged that Guzman made a sudden move as if he were reaching for a gun.
"I yelled 'Gun!' and fired," he said. "In my mind, I knew (Guzman) had a gun."
Benefield and Guzman testified that there were no orders. Instead, Guzman said, Isnora "appeared out of nowhere" with a gun drawn and shot him in the shoulder -- the first of 16 shots to enter his body.
"That's all there was -- gunfire," he said. "There wasn't nothing else."
With tires screeching, glass breaking and bullets flying, the officers claimed that they believed they were the ones under fire. Oliver responded by emptying his semiautomatic pistol, reloading, and emptying it again, as the supervisor dived for cover.
The truth emerged when the smoke cleared: There was no weapon inside Bell's blood-splattered car.
After an ambulance was summoned, the shaken detectives gathered in the middle of the street -- a scene the supervisor described as "surreal."
"We were all in shock," he said. "We thanked God that none of us were hit and we were going home."
In closing arguments, defense attorneys accused prosecutors of building their case on the unreliable testimony of Bell's friends. They noted that Guzman and Benefield both have criminal records and $50 million lawsuits against the city.
The pair were part of "a parade of convicted felons, crack dealers and men who were not strangers to weapons," said James Culleton, Oliver's attorney.
A lawyer for Isnora, Anthony Ricco, portrayed his client as an unjustly vilified hero who had exercised "enormous restraint" before pulling the trigger. But Testagrossa depicted the detectives as cowboys who wildly overreacted to some harmless trash talk. He suggested Oliver was the worst offender.
"Thirty-one shots," the prosecutor said. "Thirty-one separate pulls of the trigger. ... Thirty-one separate decisions to use deadly force. Thirty-one opportunities to pause and reassess whether continuing firing was necessary.
"Thirty-one opportunities to save an innocent life."
BREAKING NEWS: Officers Found Not Guilty In Sean Bell Case
POSTED: 8:40 am EDT April 25, 2008
UPDATED: 9:31 am EDT April 25, 2008
NEW YORK -- Three police detectives have been found not guilty of all charges in the shooting death of Sean Bell.
Officers Michael Oliver, Gescard Isnora and Marc Cooper were acquitted of all counts 17 months after Bell died in a hail of 50 police bullets. The unarmed man was shot coming out of a strip club just hours before he was to be married on Nov. 25, 2006.
# Verdict Sheet
Oliver, 36, and Isnora, 29, faced charges of manslaughter, assault and reckless endangerment. Cooper, 40, faced charges of reckless endangerment.
Justice Arthur Cooperman delivered the verdict in a Queens courtroom packed with spectators, including victim Sean Bell's fiancee and parents, as at least 200 people gathered outside the building.
The officers, complaining that pretrial publicity had unfairly painted them as cold-blooded killers, opted to have the judge decide the case rather than a jury.
Bell, a 23-year-old black man, was killed in a hail of gunfire outside a seedy strip club in Queens on Nov. 25, 2006 -- his wedding day -- as he was leaving his bachelor party with two friends.
Oliver squeezed off 31 shots; Isnora fired 11 rounds; and Cooper shot four times. Two other shooters weren't charged.
A conviction on manslaughter could have brought up to 25 years in prison; the penalty for reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor, is a year behind bars.
The case brought back painful memories of other NYPD shootings, such as the 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo -- an African immigrant who was gunned down in a hail of 41 bullets by police officers who mistook his wallet for a gun. The acquittal of the officers in that case created a storm of protest, with hundreds arrested after taking to the streets in demonstration.
The mood surrounding this case has been muted by comparison, although Bell's fiancee, parents and their supporters, including the Rev. Al Sharpton, have held rallies demanding that the officers -- two of whom are black -- be held accountable.
Dozens of people waiting outside the courthouse for the verdict began crying after hearing news of the acquittals. Some yelled, "No!" and briefly jostled with police officers.
The nearly two-month trial was marked by deeply divergent accounts on the part of defense lawyers and prosecutors.
The defense painted the victims as drunken thugs who the officers believed were armed and dangerous. Prosecutors sought to convince the judge that the victims had been minding their own business, and that the officers were inept, trigger-happy aggressors.
In his closing arguments, prosecutor Charles Testagrossa alluded to the starkly different views of the shooting.
"If you are a police officer or sympathetic to police officers, the defendants are tragic heroes and the victims are thugs," he said. "If you are friends of the victims, then the defendants are murderers."
None of the officers took the witness stand in his own defense.
Instead, Cooperman heard transcripts of the officers testifying before a grand jury, saying they believed they had good reason to use deadly force. The judge also heard testimony from Bell's two injured companions, who insisted the maelstrom erupted without warning.
Both sides were consistent on one point: The utter chaos surrounding the last moments of Bell's life.
"It happened so quick," Isnora in his grand jury testimony. "It was like the last thing I ever wanted to do."
Bell's companions -- Trent Benefield and Joseph Guzman -- also offered dramatic testimony about the episode. Benefield and Guzman were both wounded; Guzman still has four bullets lodged in his body.
Referring to Isnora, Guzman said, "This dude is shooting like he's crazy, like he's out of his mind."
The victims and shooters were set on a fateful collision course by a pair of innocuous decisions: Bell's to have a last-minute bachelor party at Kalua Cabaret, and the undercover detectives' to investigate reports of prostitution at the club.
The party, according to Bell's friends, was boozy but uneventful. But the undercovers were jumpy.
"I felt uncomfortable," testified Detective Hispolito "Hip" Sanchez, who with Isnora posed as a patron that night. "I just didn't feel good about it."
As the club closed around 4 a.m., Sanchez and Isnora claimed they overheard Bell and his friends first flirt with women, then taunt a stranger who responded by putting his right hand in his pocket as if he had a gun. Guzman, they testified, said, "Yo, go get my gun" -- something Bell's friends denied.
Isnora said he decided to arm himself, call for backup -- "It's getting hot," he told his supervisor -- and tail Bell, Guzman and Benefield as they went around the corner and got into Bell's car. He claimed that after warning the men to halt, Bell pulled away, bumped him and rammed an unmarked police van that converged on the scene with Oliver at the wheel.
The detective also alleged that Guzman made a sudden move as if he were reaching for a gun.
"I yelled 'Gun!' and fired," he said. "In my mind, I knew (Guzman) had a gun."
Benefield and Guzman testified that there were no orders. Instead, Guzman said, Isnora "appeared out of nowhere" with a gun drawn and shot him in the shoulder -- the first of 16 shots to enter his body.
"That's all there was -- gunfire," he said. "There wasn't nothing else."
With tires screeching, glass breaking and bullets flying, the officers claimed that they believed they were the ones under fire. Oliver responded by emptying his semiautomatic pistol, reloading, and emptying it again, as the supervisor dived for cover.
The truth emerged when the smoke cleared: There was no weapon inside Bell's blood-splattered car.
After an ambulance was summoned, the shaken detectives gathered in the middle of the street -- a scene the supervisor described as "surreal."
"We were all in shock," he said. "We thanked God that none of us were hit and we were going home."
In closing arguments, defense attorneys accused prosecutors of building their case on the unreliable testimony of Bell's friends. They noted that Guzman and Benefield both have criminal records and $50 million lawsuits against the city.
The pair were part of "a parade of convicted felons, crack dealers and men who were not strangers to weapons," said James Culleton, Oliver's attorney.
A lawyer for Isnora, Anthony Ricco, portrayed his client as an unjustly vilified hero who had exercised "enormous restraint" before pulling the trigger. But Testagrossa depicted the detectives as cowboys who wildly overreacted to some harmless trash talk. He suggested Oliver was the worst offender.
"Thirty-one shots," the prosecutor said. "Thirty-one separate pulls of the trigger. ... Thirty-one separate decisions to use deadly force. Thirty-one opportunities to pause and reassess whether continuing firing was necessary.
"Thirty-one opportunities to save an innocent life."
That whole "Being shocked" spat is a straight bunch of BULLSHIT. So I guess the ones that shot up diallo were in shock too..Fuck outa here..
Shit is sickening. As I stated, the NYPD is a gang in it's own right..
Shit is sickening. As I stated, the NYPD is a gang in it's own right..
