If Obama Is President, Would He Forget About The Bush Crimes?

thoughtone

Rising Star
Registered
I’m convinced that the one of the reasons the republicans don’t want Hillary to win is because she will pursue the republican crimes the way the republicans investigate the Clintons. Do you think Obama will say “let’s forget about the past and heal America” and let the crimes of the Bush regime slide?
 
I think people give GW way too much credit.
He can't even put a sentence together let alone mastermind all these atrocities that have occurred in his 2 terms.
It's obvious that he's had his hand held throughout his presidency and I would be willing to bet that he has little more power than to decide where him and Cheney are going to eat lunch.

The rabbit hole is so deep and the players are too many,players with deep pockets.
Independent counsel Lawrence Walsh spent $48.5 million on a six-year investigation of whether the Reagan administration attempted arms-for-hostages deals with Iran and assisted Contra rebels fighting Nicaragua's leftist government.
Kenneth Starr spent $7.2 million just to prove Clinton got the ol' spit shine,imagine how much it would cost to prosecute Bush and his cronies.
Where would they even start?

I'm not saying adopt a head in the sand approach but enough is enough.
I for one don't want my tax dollars spent to investigate those who are clearly guilty.
 
why do you think bush is stupid? he's done almost every single thing he has set out to do
 
why do you think bush is stupid? he's done almost every single thing he has set out to do

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Co-Sign!

ole boy crazy like a fox. although i still think he's stupid for wanting to do what he's done (international war/terrorism/crimes):smh:
 
why do you think bush is stupid? he's done almost every single thing he has set out to do

Bush reminds me of Don King. It's easy to laugh and crack jokes at both of them all day. But when the smoke clears, despite how controversial or immoral the things they did are, they still accomplished most of what they sought out to accomplish.
 
why do you think bush is stupid? he's done almost every single thing he has set out to do

The puzzled look on his face just about every time he's asked a new question.
It's like this is what fuels his brain

Cheney is the real president,GW is just another Bush with all the money,the connections but none of the brains.
With who he has behind him calling the shots,a monkey could do it.
He hasn't set out to do shit but make his daddy happy and do what he's told.
 
Wolfowitz Joins Think Tank as Visiting Scholar

He was an architect of the Iraq war who was forced from the World Bank presidency amid allegations that he improperly acted to benefit his girlfriend. Now, Paul D. Wolfowitz will turn his attention to the relatively calmer waters of Washington intelligentsia, as a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

The conservative think tank announced yesterday that it has hired Wolfowitz, who stepped down from his World Bank post on Saturday, to work on issues of international economic development, Africa and public-private partnerships. The announcement was made by AEI's president, Christopher DeMuth.

Bush's policies are put together by neocon think-tanks. They might be the closest thing to nazis we've seen since Hitler. It bothers me how the Feds have a free rein to hunt down and make cases against anyone they don't like. Personally I agree with a lot of what Bush has done but his running buddies I could do without
 
[1] Bush's policies are put together by neocon think-tanks.

[2] They might be the closest thing to nazis we've seen since Hitler.

[3] I agree with a lot of what Bush has done but his running buddies I could do without
How is that not an endorsement of the nazi-like-neocons ??? I'm just saying: if Bush policies are the neocons policies; if neocons are like nazis; and you like what those policies have accomplished -- doesn't that mean you like the nazi-like-neocons ???

QueEx
 
How is that not an endorsement of the nazi-like-neocons ??? I'm just saying: if Bush policies are the neocons policies; if neocons are like nazis; and you like what those policies have accomplished -- doesn't that mean you like the nazi-like-neocons ???

QueEx
:lol:
 
Bush reminds me of Don King. It's easy to laugh and crack jokes at both of them all day. But when the smoke clears, despite how controversial or immoral the things they did are, they still accomplished most of what they sought out to accomplish.

:yes::yes:
 
Bush reminds me of Don King. It's easy to laugh and crack jokes at both of them all day. But when the smoke clears, despite how controversial or immoral the things they did are, they still accomplished most of what they sought out to accomplish.


This is unfortunately true, especially the immoral part.

To answer the original post, I doubt any of the front runners of the Democratic party have the balls to go after Bush and Co. if they were to win. The current Democratic leadership won't even put impeachment proceedings on the table for Cheney. Shit, they even gave him the domestic spying bill he couldn't get passed with a GOP-controlled Congress.
 
How is that not an endorsement of the nazi-like-neocons ??? I'm just saying: if Bush policies are the neocons policies; if neocons are like nazis; and you like what those policies have accomplished -- doesn't that mean you like the nazi-like-neocons ???

QueEx


I don't know how you take what I said as a endorsement of nazi policies. I said I agree with a lot of what Bush does but I don't like his buddies. Bush was right albeit slow on Iraq I agree with that. He's given the Feds over-reaching power imo I don't agree with that. With Bush I think the main thing is to be objective and look at the big picture. He is not your everyday politican.
 
I doubt if anyone would go after Bush and his handlers.

1. Bush is not bright but the people who run him are (see PNAC).:(
2. No one is going to finger this administration for anything. They control the government and who can govern. The commutation of Scooter Libbey, Alberto Gonzales and Paul Wolfowitz should let you all know this.
3. The Dem's are weak and cowardly. :angry: They have had more than enough time to hold a special hearing on the "lead up to war", the faulty yello cake evidence and a host of other crimes. They do nothing and won't. No impeachment, no outrage... n-o-t-h-i-n-g. :smh:Pelosi and the crew only want to win the White House in 08. They talk like they will do more than the Republican's, but they can't even back a president down, who has virtually no positive approval rating, on cutting funds for an unpopular war.:puke::smh:
4. Look how many people were in the administration now that were caught up in the Iran-Contra scandal in the 80's... Shocking and criminal are all I can say.:hmm:


If Obama wins. He will turn the page and make it his mission to forget the past by making the future better. He will want no part of slamming Bush. :smh: He's not doing it now nor are any of the other candidates - except Dennis. And he is relegated to the back of the short yellow bus in the race?!?!:confused:
 
If Obama wins. He will turn the page and make it his mission to forget the past by making the future better. He will want no part of slamming Bush. :smh: He's not doing it now nor are any of the other candidates - except Dennis. And he is relegated to the back of the short yellow bus in the race?!?!:confused:
Is Dennis right and all of the other candidates wrong? - which is why Dennis is relegated to the back of the short yellow bus?

QueEx
 
Many people are critical of Bush, but the art of politics have become the Art of not being definitive. After who ever wins, wins, you will not see any reprisals toward the current administration. Many of the candidtates are probaly happy the Bush has been so overreaching, because it will make thier brand of interference look tame.
 
Is Dennis right and all of the other candidates wrong? - which is why Dennis is relegated to the back of the short yellow bus?

QueEx
Dennis is right. The other hopefuls are playing safe politics. Obama is just beginning to fend off Hillary's attacks. No one, including Obama, has the stomach or the will to do the right thing and expose, prosecute and convict the people in this administration. They feel it is fight not worth taking up. Sad for us though...
 
There is hell to pay!

source: Philly.com

Obama would ask his AG to "immediately review" potential of crimes in Bush White House

Tonight I had an opportunity to ask Barack Obama a question that is on the minds of many Americans, yet rarely rises to the surface in the great ruckus of the 2008 presidential race -- and that is whether an Obama administration would seek to prosecute officials of a former Bush administration on the revelations that they greenlighted torture, or for other potential crimes that took place in the White House.

Obama said that as president he would indeed ask his new Attorney General and his deputies to "immediately review the information that's already there" and determine if an inquiry is warranted -- but he also tread carefully on the issue, in line with his reputation for seeking to bridge the partisan divide. He worried that such a probe could be spun as "a partisan witch hunt." However, he said that equation changes if there was willful criminality, because "nobody is above the law."

The question was inspired by a recent report by ABC News, confirmed by the Associated Press, that high-level officials including Vice President Dick Cheney and former Cabinet secretaries Colin Powell, John Ashcroft and Donald Rumsfeld, among others, met in the White House and discussed the use of waterboarding and other torture techniques on terrorism suspects.

I mentioned the report in my question, and said "I know you've talked about reconciliation and moving on, but there's also the issue of justice, and a lot of people -- certainly around the world and certainly within this country -- feel that crimes were possibly committed" regarding torture, rendition, and illegal wiretapping. I wanted to know how whether his Justice Department "would aggressively go after and investigate whether crimes have been committed."

Here's his answer, in its entirety:

What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that's already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can't prejudge that because we don't have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve.

So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.

The bottom line is that: Obama sent a clear signal that -- unlike impeachment, which he's ruled out and which now seems a practical impossibility -- he is at the least open to the possibility of investigating potential high crimes in the Bush White House. To many, the information that waterboarding -- which the United States has considered torture and a violation of law in the past -- was openly planned out in the seat of American government is evidence enough to at least start asking some tough questions in January 2009.
 
I’m convinced that the one of the reasons the republicans don’t want Hillary to win is because she will pursue the republican crimes the way the republicans investigate the Clintons. Do you think Obama will say “let’s forget about the past and heal America” and let the crimes of the Bush regime slide?

Obama is a coward. Okay, I didn't say that.

Obama is a mediator, a diplomat, a moderator, and a facilitator.

He's above petty bickering and simple-minded grudges.

There will be no payback and the current administration will whistle off into the sunset without suffering any consequences.

You and I both already know that.
 
JUSTICE AFTER BUSH - Prosecuting an Outlaw Administration


JUSTICE AFTER BUSH -Prosecuting an Outlaw Administration


Important article from HARPERS. It's a subscription only web site so I downloaded the article *.pdf and the link is below.


http://www.box.net/shared/4hz8uoquz9

OR


http://rapidshare.com/files/168358900/JUSTICE_AFTER_BUSH_.zip


<img src="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/nichomachus/Harpers.jpg" width="500" height="619">


Should Bush officials be prosecuted for their torture programs, and how could this be done?

* - What distinguishes the Bush administration's lawlessness from the isolated lawbreaking of past Presidents ("This administration did more than commit crimes. It waged war against the law itself");

* - Why -- of all the Bush crimes -- torture is, in Scott's words, "not only the crime that most clearly calls for prosecution but also the crime that is most likely to be successfully prosecuted";

* - Whether the limited retroactive immunity bestowed on war criminals by the Detainees Treatment Act and Military Commissions Act is a barrier to such prosecutions;

* - Whether it should be a defense for high level government officials that the Bush DOJ issued legal opinions authorizing these interrogation programs and asserting that they were legal;

* - How the issuance of presidential pardons could be overcome;

* - What the benefits are of beginning with a Truth Commission, rather than having the DOJ simply investigate and prosecute.

* - Will new attorney general Eric Holder do?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted Notes From the article

1) In addition to being illegal, torture is profoundly un-American. The central premise of the American experiment is the belief, informed by Enlightenment principles, that the dignity and worth of the individual is at least as important as that of the state. This belief weighed heavily on the minds of the Founders. The new American military was to be a force of yeoman soldiers, citizens in peacetime who were to be regarded as no less than citizens in wartime. Enemy soldiers likewise were to be treated with respect. George Washington, in the winter of 1776, sent a written order to officers overseeing prisoners: “Treat them with humanity.” And in 1863, at another time of crisis, Abraham Lincoln included the prohibition of torture in the first American codification of the laws of war, which he also issued as a direct order to his field commanders. By way of such American leadership, the prohibition on torture was gradually absorbed into international law.

2) Cheney at the time declined to refer to this practice as torture, preferring instead to describe it as “robust interrogation,” and that reluctance has been echoed in the press. I myself was twice warned by PBS producers, in advance of appearances on The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, that I could use the word “torture” in the abstract but that I was to refrain from applying it to the administration’s policies. And after an interview with CNN in which I spoke of the administration’s torture policy, I was told by the producer, “That’s okay for CNN International, but we can’t use it on the domestic feed.” More recently, however, the consensus appears to be that “torture” is a perfectly adequate description of administration policy. In the vicepresidential debates, Joe Biden said that Cheney has “done more harm than any other single elected official in memory in terms of shredding the Constitution. You know—condoning torture.” In the first presidential debate, John McCain said we must ensure “that we have people who are trained interrogators so that we don’t ever torture a prisoner ever again.” And Barack Obama, though vague, seemed to accept this formulation. “I give Senator McCain great credit on the torture issue,” he said, “for having identified that as something that undermines our longterm security.”

3) In an interview with Jane Mayer of The New Yorker, a former senior CIA official with knowledge of the administration’s torture program summarized its attitude more bluntly: “Laws? Like who the fuck cares?”


 
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Re: JUSTICE AFTER BUSH - Prosecuting an Outlaw Administration

If that day ever came then there would truly be real change in Washington.
 
Re: JUSTICE AFTER BUSH - Prosecuting an Outlaw Administration

Props muck. Ill preface my statement by saying that I havent paid attention to politics for too long. What is scary to me is to think about the precedent these assholes have set. Those in the oval office should be held to the highest of standards. I know its going to take a while to undue some of the fuckery that has been committed. What is going to done to prevent the travasties committed in the past 8 years from happenening again? Hopefully this article will answer some of my questions.
 
Re: JUSTICE AFTER BUSH - Prosecuting an Outlaw Administration

PBS FRONTLINE DOCUMENTARY
Extraordinary Rendition


Extraordinary Rendition is the kidnapping & torture of individuals on orders from the executive branch of the US Government (The White House) without any judicial review, or any charges being presented.

The individual subject to Extraordinary Rendition simply vanishes, his/her family is never informed, NO ONE except those who are following the White House orders or are told by the White House knows about the torture that is occurring.

Watch the video.

Extraordinary Rendition started in the Clinton White House. The Bush Crime Family took the policy & put it on steroids


Code:
http://rapidshare.com/files/83299985/PBS_FrontlineWorld_-_2007_Extraordinary_Rendition_rapid.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/83303567/PBS_FrontlineWorld_-_2007_Extraordinary_Rendition_rapid.part2.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/83295225/PBS_FrontlineWorld_-_2007_Extraordinary_Rendition_rapid.part3.rar
 
Re: JUSTICE AFTER BUSH - Prosecuting an Outlaw Administration

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Will Bush officials face war crimes trials? </font size><font size="6">
Few expect it</font size></center>




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Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, left, and Gen.
Richard B. Myers, shown here testifying before Congress
in 2005, were both named in a recent Senate report as
responsible for policies that led to detainee abuse.




McClatchy Newspapers
By Marisa Taylor
Friday, December 19, 2008


WASHINGTON — Emboldened by a Democratic win of the White House, civil libertarians and human rights groups want the incoming Obama administration to investigate whether the Bush administration committed war crimes. They don't just want low-level CIA interrogators, either. They want President George W. Bush on down.

In the past eight years, administration critics have demanded that top officials be held accountable for a host of expansive assertions of executive powers from eavesdropping without warrants to detaining suspected enemy combatants indefinitely at the Guantanamo Bay military prison. A recent bipartisan Senate report on how Bush policies led to the abuse of detainees has fueled calls for a criminal investigation.

But even some who believe top officials broke the law don't favor criminal prosecutions. The charges would be too difficult legally and politically to succeed.

Without wider support, the campaign to haul top administration officials before an American court is likely to stall.

In the end, Bush administration critics might have more success by digging out the truth about what happened and who was responsible, rather than assigning criminal liability, and letting the court of public opinion issue the verdicts, many say.

"It is mind boggling to say eight years later that there is not going to be some sort of criminal accountability for what happened," said David Glazier, a law of war expert at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles and a retired naval officer. "It certainly undermines our moral authority and our ability to criticize other countries for doing exactly the same thing. But given the legal issues and the political reality, I am hard pressed to see any other outcome."

Robert Turner, a former Reagan White House lawyer who supported several of the Bush administration's assertions of executive powers, but not the use of harsh interrogation techniques, said that war crimes "may well have been committed," given reports by human-rights organizations that some prisoners may have been beaten to death.

Turner was outraged when Bush signed an executive order in 2007 that he believes permitted highly abusive treatment, so long as the "purpose" was to acquire intelligence to stop future terrorist attacks, rather than just to humiliate or degrade the detainee.

He recalls telling senior Justice Department officials during a conference call prior to the public release of the order: "Do you people understand that you are setting up the president of the United States to be tried as a war criminal?" The conference call, he said, quickly came to an end.

Turner, who co-founded the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law in 1981, rebuts the administration's defense that waterboarding, which simulates the sensation of drowning, isn't torture and therefore is legal.

He also challenges the administration's argument that Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, prohibiting inhumane treatment of detainees, isn't binding. "The standard is not torture. It's humane treatment. That's a much higher standard," he said, noting that after World War II, the U.S. prosecuted Japanese soldiers for using waterboarding on American troops.

Turner, nonetheless, has concluded that prosecution of war crimes in American courts isn't the best course. Other critics of the administration join him, including retired Brig. Gen. John H. Johns, retired Army Col. Larry Wilkerson and retired Air Force Judge Advocate General Scott Silliman.

"From a legal point of view, it would be exceedingly difficult," Silliman said. "From a policy point of view, we would be wading into dangerous waters."

Retired Navy JAG John Hutson, the dean of the Franklin Pierce Law Center, in Concord, N.H., said he thinks that Americans would be more likely to get the facts from inquiries modeled on the 9-11 Commission or the post-Watergate Church Committee.

"It's absolutely crucial that we have an understanding of what happened so it doesn't happen again," Hutson said. "But to some extent, making that a criminal investigation would inhibit rather than foster a thorough understanding because people would lawyer up."

"You might get some prosecutions" of low-level officials, he added. "But you would not get absolute ground truth."

Prosecuting interrogators without going after higher-ups would be divisive politically, even though following the orders of superiors isn't a valid defense against war crimes, military experts said.

Also left unanswered is whether any top congressional Democrats consented directly or indirectly to the most controversial interrogation practices after the administration disclosed them in closed-door briefings.

Americans have been reluctant to prosecute their own — no matter how appalling the atrocities. Even after U.S. Army officer William Calley was convicted for ordering the 1968 My Lai Massacre, in which as many as 500 Vietnamese villagers were killed, many Americans continued to see him as a scapegoat. He was sentenced to three years of house arrest. No other officer, including Calley's commander, was ever convicted.

Recent polls show that a majority of Americans think that waterboarding is torture, but are divided over whether it's justified in certain circumstances, such as preventing a terrorist attack.

Democrats, however, are likely to feel pressure to open some sort of broader criminal inquiry, especially given recent revelations.

Earlier this year, retired Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo by using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other practices.

The Taguba report concurred with a five-part McClatchy investigation of Guantanamo that was published earlier this year. Among its findings were that abuses occurred — primarily at prisons in Afghanistan where detainees were held en route to Guantanamo — and that many of the prisoners were wrongly detained.

This month's Senate report concluded that top officials — including former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff — were responsible for the use of "abusive" interrogation techniques on detainees. The Senate Armed Services Committee also dismissed the Bush administration's repeated claims that the abuses were the work of a few low-level officials.

Michael Ratner, the president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which has represented Guantanamo detainees, said the report took "one step forward" toward a criminal inquiry, noting that it concludes the interrogations were geared toward false confessions. However, he acknowledged that the Obama administration is "clearly going to need to be pushed" for a criminal inquiry to be opened.

An aide to a senior Democrat, who didn't have the authorization to talk and asked to remain anonymous, said that the reports could fuel a new zeal in Congress to pursue administration officials but added that might depend on what the president-elect wants.

On the campaign trail, Obama promised to ask his attorney general to "immediately" determine whether an inquiry is merited. "If crimes have been committed, they should be investigated," he told the Philadelphia Daily News.

At the same time, he said he wouldn't want his first term to be consumed by what could be perceived as a "partisan witch hunt."

"Presumably, the Obama administration is not looking to spend a lot of time or a lot of headlines going after Republicans in the opening months of his administration," the aide said. "If many Republicans are prosecuted, the question is whether half the country will call it political retribution."

Obama could avoid a political fight by instead appointing a presidential commission or ordering his administration to cooperate with a congressional inquiry.

The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., predicted that there wouldn't be criminal investigations in the U.S.

"I understand the frustration of these people," Leahy said in a recent interview with Vermont Public Radio of those who've pushed for a criminal inquiry. "But those things are not going to happen."

Leahy instead called for congressional oversight hearings.

The Bush administration, meanwhile, has remained steadfast in defending the legality of its anti-terrorism policies. In a recent interview with ABC News, Vice President Dick Cheney said critics who've accused the administration of endorsing torture "simply don't know what they're talking about."

"We had the Justice Department issue the requisite opinions in order to know where the bright lines were that you could not cross," he said. "The professionals involved in that program were very, very cautious, very careful (and) wouldn't do anything without making certain it was authorized and that it was legal."

Even if Congress and the White House mustered the political will, a criminal investigation would be legally complicated.

Bush could insulate his administration's officials against criminal charges by issuing pre-emptive pardons before he leaves office in January.

If Bush doesn't issue pardons, administration officials theoretically could be prosecuted under the War Crimes Act of 1996, which makes a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions a war crime that can be prosecuted in an American federal court.

However, Common Article 2 of the treaties says that the conventions apply to a conflict between two states that are party to the treaties, and the administration points out that al Qaida doesn't fit that description. In addition, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 specifies what sort of conduct can be punished and appears to give administration officials cover.

Challenging that immunity is likely to be an uphill battle, because Congress has the constitutional authority to define and punish offenses against the laws of nations.

Another route would be pursuing charges under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which allows for the prosecution in a military court-martial of anyone who's subject to the laws of war. Under the Yamashita standard, named for a Japanese general convicted of World War II crimes, officials who "knew or should have known" that crimes were being committed by their troops could be prosecuted. The Supreme Court, however, has strictly limited military jurisdiction over civilians, making a trial of administration officials in that forum difficult, if not impossible.

Experts said that a criminal prosecution is more likely to succeed abroad if led by any one of the countries that is party to treaties prohibiting such treatment. The International Criminal Court, which calls itself "the court of last resort", could also prosecute war crimes charges. The U.S., however, refuses to cede to its jurisdiction, despite the court's recognition by 108 other countries.

"Americans need to know what pressures were brought to bear," Hutson said. "Who made late night phone calls saying, 'If you're a patriot, you've got to come up with a legal opinion that permits us to do these things?' Culpability is less important to me than finding out what made such smart lawyers come up with such a travesty of a legal opinion."



http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/58210.html
 
Bush didn't do anything about Clinton's complicity in the '93 WTC attacks, Hotel Rwanda, Serbia, NAFTA; Bill Clinton didn't do anything about Bush Sr.'s illegal war in Kuwait/Iraq, which left thousands of troops mentally and physically poisoned with depleted uranium; Bush Sr. didn't do anything about Reagan's selling of illegal chemical/bio weapons to Sadaam Hussein...

will Obama break the pattern?
 
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Obama & Biden To Protect Bush Administration Criminals

221208top.jpg


Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Monday, December 22, 2008

It’s par for the course for Obama and Biden, the men who promised “change” but in every step of their preparations for assuming office have pursued nothing but continuity, to acknowledge that they will protect criminals in the Bush administration from prosecution for authorizing torture, a complete violation of both the U.S. constitution and the Geneva Conventions.

When asked by ABC host George Stephanopoulos if top level Bush administration officials would be prosecuted for mandating prisoner abuse, Biden said that he and Obama would be “focusing on the future,” adding “I think we should be looking forward, not backwards.”

Such rhetoric goes to the very heart of the gigantic con job the “Obama change” hoax has wrought upon millions of befuddled Americans who naively presumed that voting for the lesser of two evils would result in anything other than more evil.

Perhaps Göerring, Ribbentrop and the rest of the Nazis prosecuted at Nuremberg for their war crimes were following the wrong line of defense when they claimed they were merely “following orders,” they should have just proclaimed that the world should be “looking forward not backwards” and according to the Biden/Obama view of justice, they would have got off scot free.

Likewise, pedophiles and rapists who abuse children and women in ways not far removed from what was approved at Abu Ghraib should merely tell police that since the abuse and rape occurred in the past, everybody should just move on, “looking forwards not backwards”.

Obama and Biden, with their de-facto pardons of the Bush administration torture masters, are ensuring that what happened at places like Abu Ghraib, including beating people to death, raping people with acid covered batons and sexual abuse of children, will continue to happen in future without consequence.

Of course, those that protect war criminals from prosecution should be treated no better than the war criminals themselves, and when real “change” comes to America, Obama and Biden will face the same justice as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.
 
P.M.,

How about including a citation for articles posted -- so that we can tell which statements/comments are the author's and which are the comments, etc., of the posters.

Thanks.

QueEx
 
<font face="arial black" size="5" color="#d90000">Senate Report: Rumsfeld To Blame For Detainee Abuse</font>
<font face="tahoma" size="4" color="#0000FF"><b>
Senator John McCain (R-AZ) & Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) Issue Bipartisan Report Refuting Bush Admin. Torture Lies</b></font>

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<b>12/11/2008 @ 9:40 pm
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Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other members of the Bush administration "conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees," claims a Senate Armed Services Committee report issued Thursday.

According to the committee, prisoners were tortured in the Iraqi prison Abu Ghraib, the US prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and other US military installations. Senators Carl Levin (D-MI) and John McCain (R-AZ) were responsible for the content of the Senate's findings.

The report determined that placing the blame on "a few bad apples," as Bush administration officials attempted to do in the aftermath of the Abu Ghraib scandal, is inappropriate.

The policies were adopted after government assessments determined waterboarding and other torture techniques were "100 percent effective" at breaking the wills of US officers who underwent the military's Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape program.

The report finally claims that Rumsfeld's torture policies "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies and compromised our moral authority."</font>

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Open the *pdf file below for more detailed reporting about this story that television news with few exceptions totally ignored.</font>

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Senate report RUMSFELD TO BLAME FOR DETAINEE TORTURE.pdf

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Will Obama back 'truth commission'
to probe Bush practices?</font size></center>



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A detainee stands outside a fenced recreation area in
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


McClatchy Newspapers
By Margaret Talev
and Marisa Taylor |
February 20, 2009


WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama and Congress are locked in a stare-down over how much to expose or punish Bush administration employees for any abuses they committed in waging the war on terrorism.

Obama, after critical rhetoric on the campaign trail, has sent mixed signals about how far he's willing to go. His concerns are grounded in pragmatism and politics.

Politically, pursuing Bush administration abuses could bog Obama down in partisan warfare with Republicans over the past, endangering his agenda for the future. Pragmatically, intelligence agency veterans have warned the new administration that investigations into the Bush administration's practices of interrogation, rendition and surveillance could damage U.S. intelligence efforts, lower morale in the intelligence community and expose the nation to greater danger.

At the same time, some Democrats in Congress are calling for a "truth commission" to expose such practices, one that might offer immunity in exchange for testimony. Others want criminal prosecutions.

Democrats also are pressing Obama's Justice Department to make public a report, which began under the Bush administration, on the officials who crafted the legal justifications for controversial interrogation methods. Democrats also have proposed legislation tightening the terms of what presidents can claim as "state secrets."

Congressional Democrats can't achieve much by themselves, however. They'll need support from Obama and probably at least some Republicans. Obama also hasn't yet said whether he'll support a truth commission.

"If it was opposed by the White House, you're not going to get any legislation of any sort through, because it would be extraordinarily easy for every Republican to say no and a number of Democrats to say no," said Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., who's among those who are calling for a truth commission. "That's kind of realpolitik."

Republicans, meanwhile, say that if Obama pushes for a truth commission or prosecutions over the Bush administration's practices, they'll read that as an abdication of his promised bipartisanship and a declaration of political war.

"I don't think the Obama administration would want to have a truth commission to go back after he leaves office and the Republicans (regain) control, to see what he did," said Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri, the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"That's Third World country-type stuff," Bond said, "where you go in and prosecute; if you lose an election you get prosecuted. That has never been the American way. I think that the people of America would understand that that's not how this country is supposed to work."

Bond also argued that any wide airing of interrogation details and any broad threat of prosecutions would be devastating to future intelligence-gathering, would embolden terrorists and could be unreliable.

"Immunizing one person to get them to rat flows over to everyone else who isn't the rat and doesn't give you reliable information," Bond said. "If they tried to bring in people from the (CIA) who were actually involved in interrogations, who were operating under the guidelines of the Office of Legal Counsel, the shock and the impact on the intelligence community would be severe.

"If somebody disagrees with the (Office of Legal Counsel guidelines) and says, 'Well, the opinions were wrong, therefore we're going to prosecute them,' that would shut down — that would absolutely cripple — the intelligence community."

Because Republicans, if united, can block Senate action, any movement may have to come from the House of Representatives. There, Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers, D-Mich., wants a commission or hearings that could yield prosecutions, and Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., has left the door open for such developments.

However, the House leadership has yet to agree on a strategy, aides said, and many Democrats are reluctant to clash with their new president because that could weaken party solidarity and damage prospects for other legislation.

Liza Goitein of the Brennan Center for Justice, which advocates investigation, concedes that for now prospects for criminal prosecution are "a nonstarter unless a smoking gun comes out," such as a new inspector general report.

"The details of a commission would be very important," she said, "but I think in some ways people are not engaging yet because we're still at the point of 'Should there be a commission or not?' "

Many Americans do want more information about — and some accounting for — any intelligence abuses. A USA Today-Gallup Poll earlier this month found that 38 percent of Americans favored a criminal investigation into possible torture of terrorism suspects and 24 percent favored establishing an independent panel to look into it.

Leahy said that Bond might be right about resistance to looking back, but "I hope he's not. I think we would miss all the illegalities that went on. It would be a serious mistake."

Leahy recalled the intelligence revisions that resulted from a 1970s congressional investigation into abuses.

"I'm not doing it with the idea of lining up a lot of prosecutions," Leahy said. "I'm doing it so that neither this administration nor the next administration will ever make the same mistakes."

Leahy said he'd try to persuade Obama to support his effort. "I will sit down with the president," he said.

Leahy's truth commission concept is gaining support. On Thursday, a broad coalition that included a former FBI director, a former undersecretary of state and a retired military general as well as various civil liberties groups issued a statement urging Obama to appoint a nonpartisan commission.

Since Obama took office, he's changed some administration practices but not others. He's ordered the end of CIA secret prisons and the closure within a year of the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but he hasn't yet said what will happen to the detainees who are there.

He's told family members of victims of al Qaida attacks that he'll consider keeping a modified military-commission system to try terrorism suspects, which human rights activists oppose.

While they haven't ruled out investigations or prosecutions related to allegations of torture, wiretapping and renditions, the president, Attorney General Eric Holder and CIA director Leon Panetta have signaled that they're not eager to dig into the past.

In a recent court case in San Francisco, Obama's lawyers stunned civil liberties advocates by continuing the Bush administration's claim that state secrets require blocking detainee lawsuits.

They're also reserving the right to continue detainee renditions to third-party countries, and in extreme cases to hold detainees indefinitely or to use interrogation methods that aren't in the Army Field Manual.

Civil liberties activists say they're torn between their gut-level disappointment over some of these moves and appreciating the strong steps that Obama has taken on issues such as Guantanamo. They also say that he deserves some benefit of the doubt, since he's been president for only a month.

"The more generous interpretation is that they're not organized yet and they're just letting things play out," said Caroline Fredrickson, the director of the Washington legislative office for the American Civil Liberties Union. "We don't know."

Said Goitein of the Brennan Center for Justice: "I'm disappointed by some of the things that he's done and I'm also very happy about some of the things he's done, and on other things the jury is out."

Bond said he was generally pleased and not that surprised: "Campaign rhetoric meets national security reality."

Two U.S. intelligence officials told McClatchy that former CIA director Gen. Michael Hayden, and John Brennan, a former director of the National Counterterrorism Center who's now an adviser to Obama on counter-terrorism and homeland security, persuaded Panetta and other incoming administration officials that investigations into the Bush administration's anti-terrorism practices could open a Pandora's box.

"They convinced the administration that investigations and truth commissions would do more harm than good," one of the officials said.

The two officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they aren't authorized to talk to the news media, said that Hayden and Brennan argued that legal action against former officials would be pointless because a parade of opinions from the White House counsel and the Justice Department had authorized their actions. They also argued that inquiries such as truth commissions would damage the careers and reputations of lower-ranking intelligence officers who, they said, never acted without approval and legal opinions from their superiors.

Panetta and Brennan couldn't be reached for comment.

In the executive branch, the CIA's inspector general and the Justice Department already are empowered to dig into what went on in the previous administration. Such investigations are under way in the Justice Department.

Bond said that route avoided political showmanship: "If they believe there was torture, then they would investigate it, and if they find evidence of it they should prosecute it."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/62575.html
 
source: The Washington Post

Obama Rejects Truth Panel
Commission Would Have Investigated Abuses in Terrorism Fight

By Shailagh Murray and Paul Kane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, April 24, 2009

President Obama rebuffed calls for a commission to investigate alleged abuses under the Bush administration in fighting terrorism, telling congressional leaders at a White House meeting yesterday that he wants to look forward instead of litigating the past.

In a lengthy exchange with House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio), Obama appeared to back away from a statement earlier this week that suggested he could support an independent commission to examine possible abuses, according to several attendees who spoke on the condition of anonymity so they could discuss the private meeting freely. White House press secretary Robert Gibbs, also seeking to clarify the president's position, told reporters that "the president determined the concept didn't seem altogether workable in this case" because of the intense partisan atmosphere built around the issue.

"The last few days might be evidence of why something like this might just become a political back and forth," Gibbs said.

The push for a "truth commission," which grew from the efforts of a few human rights groups, gained fresh momentum with last week's release of the memos from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel that provided the basis for the enhanced interrogation techniques, including the practice of simulated drowning known as waterboarding. Obama has said he is opposed to holding CIA interrogators legally accountable, but in a statement last week, he left open the possibility of legal jeopardy for those who formulated the policy.

On Tuesday, Obama explicitly raised the prospect of legal consequences for Bush administration officials who authorized the techniques applied to "high value" terrorism suspects, and said if Congress is intent on investigating the tactics, an independent commission might provide a less partisan forum than a congressional panel.

Some key lawmakers, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), pounced on his remarks to push for a commission with subpoena power and the ability to grant immunity to some witnesses.

As Republicans rejected the idea, Democrats were deeply divided.

Yesterday in a briefing before the White House meeting, Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) instead said that the Senate intelligence committee would conduct its own review, a process that could stretch through December.

At almost the same time at another briefing across the Capitol, Pelosi told reporters that she has "always been for a truth commission," a position she reiterated at the White House meeting, one participant in the session said.

But a White House official present at the meeting said Obama told lawmakers that a commission would "open the door to a protracted, backward-looking discussion."

Boehner also urged Obama to release further classified memos detailing the questionable interrogation techniques. Former vice president Richard B. Cheney has argued that the memos will make clear that aggressive tactics yielded valuable intelligence information that prevented further terrorist attacks.

Obama responded that Cheney had done "a good job at telling his side of the story," according to Democrats and Republicans in the room. "Obama said the memos weren't as clear-cut," one attendee said.

Earlier yesterday, Boehner criticized Pelosi and leading congressional Democrats who are pushing for the panel by noting that they had been briefed on interrogation tactics as far back as September 2002.

"All of this information was downloaded to congressional leaders of both parties with no objections being raised," Boehner told reporters. "Not a word was raised at the time, not one word."

But Pelosi said leaders were never briefed about the actual use of waterboarding, saying top lawmakers were told only about the existence of legal opinions supporting its rationale.

"We were not -- I repeat -- were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used. What they did tell us is that they had . . . the Office of Legal Counsel opinions [and] that they could be used, but not that they would," she said.

In late 2002, Pelosi was the ranking Democrat on the House intelligence committee, so she was part of the "Gang of Four" briefings given to the top members of the intelligence panels in the House and Senate. Pelosi continued receiving highly classified briefings when she became Democratic leader in 2003, as it is customary to brief the top Democrat and Republican from the House and Senate.

The select few lawmakers who were briefed about the handling of detainees were then forbidden from discussing with their colleagues what they had learned, she said.

"They don't come in to consult," Pelosi said of administration officials. "They come in to notify. They come in to notify. And you can't -- you can't change what they're doing unless you can act as a committee or as a class. You can't change what they're doing."
 
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