I Dare You to Read This !

QueEx

Rising Star
Super Moderator
<font size="5"><center>Ted Koppel: Seeking Perspective
on the U.S. Death Toll in Iraq</font size>
<font size="4">
“There is a reason for keeping U.S. troops in Iraq that
has more to do with American interests: stability in
the Persian Gulf, the world's single largest producer
and exporter of oil and natural gas.”</font size></center>


National Public Radio
By Ted Koppel
May 31, 2007


All Things Considered, May 31, 2007 · It's been a brutal month for American soldiers in Iraq; but it would be a mistake to think that it's the number of deaths alone that is creating the sense of national urgency to get out. Given the right circumstances, Americans are quite prepared to tolerate far higher casualties. Roughly 43,000 people die on our roads and highways every year.

Considerable effort is expended to bring that number down: Our vehicles are increasingly built to withstand crashes. We seem to have made real progress in persuading drivers to wear seatbelts and not to consume alcoholic beverages when they're about to get behind the wheel. Law enforcement does what it can to reduce speeding. Having said that, the number of driving fatalities every year remains stubbornly constant.

Apparently, 43,000 deaths a year is a price we are prepared to pay for the benefits that motorcycles, cars, trucks and buses provide. Those benefits are such, that no politician in recent memory has seriously suggested getting rid of all motor vehicles. It simply wouldn't happen. Our economy would come to a grinding halt. The impact on the national interest would be devastating.

In another week or so, we will have lost 3,500 U.S. troops in Iraq. That, of course, is over a four-year period.

So, the level of outrage and the growing opposition to the Iraq war has to be connected to something other than simply the number of those killed. After all, we lose that many people in traffic accidents every month, with barely a murmur of protest.

Where the Bush administration has failed, tragically and repeatedly, is in explaining to the American public why U.S. forces were sent into Iraq in the first place, and why they must remain there now.

Certainly, the United States has a moral obligation to deal with the chaos and anarchy that were, at least partially, unleashed by the U.S. invasion of Iraq. But that falls into the category of something we're doing for them. The president cannot and should not expect Americans to give their open-ended support to a nation that seems overwhelmingly to regard our troops as "invaders and occupiers."

What, then? There is a reason for keeping U.S. troops in Iraq that has more to do with American interests: stability in the Persian Gulf, the world's single largest producer and exporter of oil and natural gas.

Do we know for a fact that, without U.S. troops in Iraq, that country's chaos would bleed into Saudi Arabia and Kuwait; Egypt, Syria and Jordan? No. But chances are better than even that it would — and you can throw Iran into the mix.

That is not an easy political argument to make: Blood for oil has never been a popular slogan in America. But try to separate us from our motor vehicles and you'll get a sense of where our national interests lie. And if you try to keep those vehicles running without Persian Gulf oil, you'll know that a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq is nowhere in our immediate future.

Audio: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10588653

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If withdrawal forced our auto industry to adopt the years old technology that could have rid us of our oil lust decades ago then its just another reason to bounce.


Funny how Koppel won't use that same numbers argument regarding the war on terror.
 
Makkonnen said:
Funny how Koppel won't use that same numbers argument regarding the war on terror.
How would that argument go .... (I might have missed that in the article)

QueEx
 
I read it. Then I read it again.

Koppels attempt at comparative equivalence fails. To couch the subject in death tolls of vehicular fatalities, and what is 'perceived' as acceptable to a public is lacking in nuance and complexity. I also smell a very large red herring here. There is an entirely different dynamic afoot with regard to transportation deaths, than that of preemptive war consequences.

We 'know' this is a blood for oil exercise. And supporting 'our way of life' is defined by power brokers and the elite who profit off of this madness.

The 'consumers' only care about staying warm, being able to cook, and getting from A-Z. They do PREFER oil! That is simply what the leadership espouses as THE option. An alternative energy(or new engine design) supply that would offer the same or better as efficiency as the current petroleum based solution would easily be accepted. 'Little' electric cars are insufficient as far as solutions go, simply because the automobile industry simply 'designs' them to be that way.

Anyway, nothing I've said is new, but given Koppels need to point out the obvious I wonder what his real intent was. Because where I stand, the deaths of the soldiers do not justify the ends. Why? Because the national dependency on oil only exists because of greed of multi-nationals. Meaning, we have the technology and know-how for a paradigm shift in fuel consumption/usage but AREN'T using THAT. Which makes all of the 'decision' makers liars, and de-facto murderers. Forgive me if I missed something.

JG
 
John_Gault said:
I read it. Then I read it again.

Koppels attempt at comparative equivalence fails. To couch the subject in death tolls of vehicular fatalities, and what is 'perceived' as acceptable to a public is lacking in nuance and complexity. I also smell a very large red herring here. There is an entirely different dynamic afoot with regard to transportation deaths, than that of preemptive war consequences.

We 'know' this is a blood for oil exercise. And supporting 'our way of life' is defined by power brokers and the elite who profit off of this madness.

The 'consumers' only care about staying warm, being able to cook, and getting from A-Z. They do PREFER oil! That is simply what the leadership espouses as THE option. An alternative energy(or new engine design) supply that would offer the same or better as efficiency as the current petroleum based solution would easily be accepted. 'Little' electric cars are insufficient as far as solutions go, simply because the automobile industry simply 'designs' them to be that way.

Anyway, nothing I've said is new, but given Koppels need to point out the obvious I wonder what his real intent was. Because where I stand, the deaths of the soldiers do not justify the ends. Why? Because the national dependency on oil only exists because of greed of multi-nationals. Meaning, we have the technology and know-how for a paradigm shift in fuel consumption/usage but AREN'T using THAT. Which makes all of the 'decision' makers liars, and de-facto murderers. Forgive me if I missed something.

JG

You are forgiven.

-VG
 
QueEx said:
How would that argument go .... (I might have missed that in the article)

QueEx
You missed Koppel mentioning numbers in the article that you dared us to read? I doubt it.
 
Yeah Ted is reaching on this one. Implying that Americans accept 43,000 people dying in car accidents is a bit much. If the average American knew that many people died in accidents every year they would boycott automakers but that information is safely hidden from the average person. The only people privy to it are the ones who want to know about auto fatalities and are willing to dig up the info.

The war in Iraq is entirely different. For the first time in our history a U.S. president lied to the public to go into a pre-emptive war. And if that isn't bad enough he fucked up the operation. Now we're trapped in a civil conflict that's spreading across the region and kills 43,000 Iraqis every 6 months.
 
Makkonnen said:
You missed Koppel mentioning numbers in the article that you dared us to read? I doubt it.
You're right, he mentioned numbers throughout. But I was only asking how, in your opinion, do you craft those numbers into a war on terror argument. I didn't want to try to read your mind, hence, the question.

QueEx
 
nittie said:
Yeah Ted is reaching on this one. Implying that Americans accept 43,000 people dying in car accidents is a bit much. If the average American knew that many people died in accidents every year they would boycott automakers but that information is safely hidden from the average person. The only people privy to it are the ones who want to know about auto fatalities and are willing to dig up the info.
Those numbers have never been a secret. The National Safety Council and other public service organizations talk about the numbers every year, on public radio and TV, especially around certain holidays (July 4th, Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc.) when many people hit the highways -- advising them to be safe.

nittie said:
The war in Iraq is entirely different. For the first time in our history a U.S. president lied to the public to go into a pre-emptive war. And if that isn't bad enough he fucked up the operation. Now we're trapped in a civil conflict that's spreading across the region and kills 43,000 Iraqis every 6 months.
LOL. First you love Bush (and the war); then you hate him (and the war). Breakup, to makeup ... thats all you do ... oooh. Sounds like an old Stylistics record ...

QueEx
 
<font face="helvetica, verdana" size="3" color="#000000">

As the percentage of Americans who read any type of book continues its <b><font color="#FF0000">precipitous decline</font></b> , the “dumbing down” of America has become a fait accompli.

CBS News foolhardy and <font color="#FF0000"><b> ratings disaster </b></font> decision to replace veteran anchor Dan Rather with the perpetually grinning and “reality-based” news challenged Katie Couric, further certifies that the elite of American Corporatism intend to keep the non-reading American public as feebleminded as possible.

Like Rather, Ted Koppel was similarly ‘put out to pasture’ by the network brass at ABC. Although his multiple replacements are less odious than Couric, the result has been the same; less real news, more fluff. Gone are the days when one could turn on the ‘boob tube’ for 30 minutes of news and come away reasonably informed. Today that is impossible, especially with the orwellian Fox news, broadcasting deliberate deception 24/7.

Koppel’s article is only notable for ITS HUGE OMMISSION. If your writing an article in June 2007 encompassing the subjects of Iraq, Oil, casualties, “the Persian gulf”, “US strategic interest”, - one would think that the writer would mention the “Iraqi Oil Law” that the bush crime family is attempting to shackle the Iraqi people with.

Does Ted know about the “Iraqi Oil Law” and all of its ramifications that I’ll get to in a minute?
Yes he does. I just saw him last week (June 7th) on Australian Television talking about the hubris & arrogance of the bush administration trying to force the Iraqis to sign an Oil Law that no other country in the region allows.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Libya, Kuwait, Qatar, and Algeria ALL DO NOT, have the deal that the ‘bush crime family’ is trying to rape Iraq with.

Okay what’s the skinny with the ‘bush crime family’ “Iraqi Oil Law” that has virtually been censored in the US media.
I’ll give you short version. If you are a reader and listener the long version links with all the details are at the bottom of this post.

The bullet points of the ‘bush crime family’ “Iraqi Oil Law”, the ‘benchmark’ that you hear RepubliKlans & most Democrats talking about is:
<blockquote>
<font color=”#0000FF”><b>
The US wants the Iraqis to sign a bill that legally gives 80 PERCENT of their oil to American & British oil companies FOR THE NEXT 30 years.

Iraqi UNTAPPED oil reserves are potentially the greatest in the world. Under the “Iraqi Oil Law”, only 20% of newly discovered oil would be available to Iraq. The 80% of newly discovered oil and the ensuing $$$$-Billions-$$$$ would go directly into the coffers of American & British oil companies FOR THE NEXT 30 years.

Under the “Iraqi Oil Law”, the American & British oil companies ARE NOT OBLIGATED to train Iraqi workers, they ARE NOT OBLIGATED to transfer oil exploration technology. In fact they are NOT EVEN OBLIGATED TO HIRE IRAQI workers. The American & British oil companies plan to bring in contract workers from abroad to work in the Iraqi oil industry. </b></font>

</blockquote>

The long version and all the details are in the links below.
Now ask yourself. If you were an Iraqi, even a Iraqi involved in the puppet Iraqi government the US has set up in Baghdad. Would you sign the ‘benchmark’ “Iraqi Oil Law”, and effectively rape your country for the next 30 years, even for a $$$$ seven figure payoff???????????



http://electroniciraq.net/news/opeds/Iraq_Oil_Law_In_Whose_Interest_3053-3053.shtml


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http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/031507P.shtml

http://priceofoil.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Iraqoillaw021507.pdf

http://priceofoil.org/thepriceofoil/war-terror/iraqi-oil-law

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/02/27/who_will_control_iraqs_oil.php

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/43045/


<b>Part 1</b>
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<b>Part 2</b>
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<hr noshade color="#ff0000" size="10"></hr><p>
 
QueEx said:
You're right, he mentioned numbers throughout. But I was only asking how, in your opinion, do you craft those numbers into a war on terror argument. I didn't want to try to read your mind, hence, the question.

QueEx
He mentioned the numbers of people who die each year due to various activities like driving and that we're willing to live with that and yet a fraction of those die in one day 6 years ago and they use it to continue to justify the abuse of my civil rights and personal privacy right? They use it to justify invading Iraq and killing 3500 more of our countrymen and 600,000+ Iraqi civilians, untold number of Afghans, kidnapping people all over the world, kidnapping the wrong people, torture, no bid contracts, losing billions of dollars in cash on pallets etc etc etc

So 3500 via terrorism is awful but due to lung cancer from smoking or alcoholism or heart disease or ........................... is just fine. :hmm: Pure bullshit. Fear. This is all about fear and Koppel is pushing that same narcotic with that bullshit article.

Do you want to know what I thought when I first saw those planes hit the towers? "Fuck, they are gonna use this shit to do whatever they want." And they did. And ever since they have used it to rip our nation's laws and rules apart. Cart Blanche to harass vegans picketing fuckin HoneyBaked Ham stores :hmm: Im tired of this bullshit and these people are fucking traitors to America and traitors to the human race.

How does it feel to see New Orleans asking for international aid while faggots like Koppel cop pleas for spending billions of our dollars wasting time and life in Iraq?

Forgive the rant. :)

Anyway, Koppel talks big about the economics of it but never entertains the possibility of not relying on oil. Its not that it is beyond our technology or ability to manufacture its that those who rule dont want to shift so we stay the course. No flip flopping on big oil.
 
I see your point (and I didn't know where you were going until you laid it out).

I didn't get what you and some others got from the Koppel article. First, however, I didn't post the article for the truth of any matter asserted therein, rather, I thought the overall thesis of the article rather interesting and, perhaps, terribly true:


(1) We are in Iraq, if for no other reason, OIL; and

(2) We can't get out of Iraq, largely, because of OIL.​

In Koppel's opinion, the "Big Lie" is that Bush refuses to explain "to the American public why U.S. forces were sent into Iraq in the first place, and why they must remain there now" -- OIL. The numbers comparison, as I saw it, had little to do with justifications -- but what we apparently will tolerate, to continue doing what we do.


In other words, Koppel is saying what many of those who have been against they war from the start have said: the invasion was about OIL. Not an imminent threat; not an Iraq-Al Qaeda connection; not Saddam abusing Iraqis; and not WMD. Just, OIL.

You and others make the point that we can be independent of oil. Perhaps, you're right. But when??? Certainly not tomorrow, even if the technology is extant this very moment. Necessarily, there has to be a gap, of some sort, between the alternative and the present. I think Koppel is simply saying: America isn't willing to tough it, to force alternatives.

Or, are we ? Because every time the price at the pump rises (regardless the reason), people scream. But I don't see anybody boycotting the pump, en masse; we simply pay more.

QueEx

P.S.

What if Bush just confessed on all the networks in the morning: "Yeah, it was about OIL, so what, I lied." So he gets castrated before he's impeached, or vise versa. Will all those in favor of either or both not turn the ignition, the next second?

`
 
man I reread these posts years later and Im like " who wrote that?" :lol: naw I remember this convo and some others - its interesting to read it again later
 
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