Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research (*No Collin*)

[sean69]

What's your position?

I have taken the liberty to single out (IMO) the three most celebrated endorsing arguments for ES cell research.

1) The Potential for Life Argument -
Embryos are not equivalent to human life because they are incapable of existing outside the womb - they only have the potential for life.

2) Insignificant Cluster of Cells Argument -
Blastocysts, from which the inner mass (stem) cells are harvested, are but a mere cluster of 50 -150 human cells that have not differentiated into distinct "useful" or "functional" organ tissue.

3) The Beginning of Life Argument -
Embryos are not humans. Life only begins when the heartbeat develops, (5th week of pregnancy) or when brain activity begins (which has been detected at 54 days after conception).


My respective position on each argument is as follows:

1) This is an argument I find amusingly self-indicting. The popular hype, often sensationalism and over-statement of the "potential" of ES cell research makes me chuckle.

2) A gay argument typically posited by individuals, with absolutely no knowledge of molecular/cellular biology, incapable of appreciating the astronomical mind-boggling level of organized complexity of a single human cell nor the biochemical mechanics of cellular function.
Hence, I forgive them when the concept of "functionality", at this level of organization, escapes them.

3) An argument foredoomed to Zeno's paradox; a.k.a., contrary to the evidence of our senses, the belief in plurality and change is nothing but an illusion. Put simply, at what point does one qualify incipiency? Or, "what's the smallest number that's greater than zero?"

Does the point of detection of said event (heart beat, brain activity, whatever ...) by some 'calibrated' instrument, qualifiy the nascent state of life.

Uhm... No.

 

[doggish_098]

this is something that needs to be done

 

[sean69]

this is something that needs to be done

huh?

 

[bigirl]

UGH. With all the millions of fully grown and partially grown fully conscious and alive humans being killed every damn day in the name of religion or "freedom" or "democracy" or "terrorism" or whatever other new dumb word they make up, WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT SOME PRE FETUSES AND WHY?! How the fuck people can be "pro life" while they support wars and businesses that kill by the millions? WTF is that shit? Protect the unborn and kill the living?

 

[Mo-Better]

UGH. With all the millions of fully grown and partially grown fully conscious and alive humans being killed every damn day in the name of religion or "freedom" or "democracy" or "terrorism" or whatever other new dumb word they make up, WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT SOME PRE FETUSES AND WHY?! How the fuck people can be "pro life" while they support wars and businesses that kill by the millions? WTF is that shit? Protect the unborn and kill the living?

BRAVO, BRAVO!

 

[sean69]

UGH. With all the millions of fully grown and partially grown fully conscious and alive humans being killed every damn day in the name of religion or "freedom" or "democracy" or "terrorism" or whatever other new dumb word they make up, WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT SOME PRE FETUSES AND WHY?! How the fuck people can be "pro life" while they support wars and businesses that kill by the millions? WTF is that shit? Protect the unborn and kill the living?

So what exactly is your argument here?

People that are pro-life and support wars and the war industry are 2-faced? (you think?)

or

Some "pre-fetus" has no value and is worthless? (value to who/what?)

or

We should be concerned with already born humans that are dying? (how about the hopelessly handicapped and mentally retarded?)

Or is it a combo?

Even if each argument was meant to reinforce the other, that was still incoherent.

For starters, what the fuck is a "fully conscious"?
As opposed to partially conscious? Or may be you me responding to physical stimuli?

?

 

[Rudey]

I'm against it,for the simple fact that I am against abortion.

 

[jucurious]

question

they are building a HUGE stem cell research center by my school.

since i haven't taken bio or human sexuality in like 9,000 years please impart some wisdom on me....


can't u get this from the umbilical cord?

also, please correct me if i am wrong b/c i am not certain...wasn't there some legislation that was either trying to be passed, or passed that said somethin to the effect of doctors/scientist being able to harvest and use the stem cells from the umbillical cord w/out permission?

i hope i'm wrong and that my previous statement was an epic fail

 

[sean69]

question

they are building a HUGE stem cell research center by my school.

since i haven't taken bio or human sexuality in like 9,000 years please impart some wisdom on me....


can't u get this from the umbilical cord?

also, please correct me if i am wrong b/c i am not certain...wasn't there some legislation that was either trying to be passed, or passed that said somethin to the effect of doctors/scientist being able to harvest and use the stem cells from the umbillical cord w/out permission?

i hope i'm wrong and that my previous statement was an epic fail

Yea Juju, you can harvest stem cells from the umbilical cord, but thats adult stem cells (from tissue) which are different from embryonic stem cells (from blastocysts).
Adult stems cells are multipotent - basically, limited in what cells they can differentiate into.
Embryonic stem cells are pluripotent and can differentiate into all specialized embryonic tissue cells and are consequently, more versatile.
That's why there's more interest in ES cells.

Dunno bout the CAC legislation ...

 

[jucurious]

Yea Juju, you can harvest stem cells from the umbilical cord, but thats adult stem cells (from tissue) which are different from embryonic stem cells (from blastocysts).
Adult stems cells are multipotent - basically, limited in what cells they can differentiate into.
Embryonic stem cells are pluripotent and can differentiate into all specialized embryonic tissue cells and are consequently, more versatile.
That's why there's more interest in ES cells.

Dunno bout the CAC legislation ...

thanks for the knowledge

 

[GET YOU HOT]

I don't see why not, it's research that can benefit millions of other humans, what is it to commit a few, for the sake of humanity...?

 

[sean69]

I don't see why not, it's research that can benefit millions of other humans, what is it to commit a few, for the sake of humanity...?

In that case why don't you donate both of your tittys to my research

 

[GET YOU HOT]

In that case why don't you donate both of your tittys to my research

See, we could match, you put your balls on the table and let's see what we can do...

 

[sean69]

See, we could match, you put your balls on the table and let's see what we can do...

 

[owl]

Sean, outside of the politics and moral questions surrounding this issue, I really am totally ignorant of the procedures and medical implications. I am on the fence with abortion, I believe that any child could possibly the next leader of the new black world, however, I can understand why one would abort a child they couldn't afford to have. Furthermore, cases of rape. As you can see, my decisions aren't based on a fundamentalist morality. As another poster it would be extremely helpful if you could educate me on the actual procedure that occurs as my opposing argument is based solely on my fear of a surreptitious eugenics program adopting the practice,

 

[sean69]

Sean, outside of the politics and moral questions surrounding this issue, I really am totally ignorant of the procedures and medical implications. I am on the fence with abortion, I believe that any child could possibly the next leader of the new black world, however, I can understand why one would abort a child they couldn't afford to have. Furthermore, cases of rape. As you can see, my decisions aren't based on a fundamentalist morality. As another poster it would be extremely helpful if you could educate me on the actual procedure that occurs as my opposing argument is based solely on my fear of a surreptitious eugenics program adopting the practice,

That's interesting you bring that up (about the eugenics jump-off). Look where the research into nuclear fission went.
Anyway, my argument isn't based on morality from a theistic perspective or as defined by the current religious status quo, but rather on causal consequence of ones actions.
Simply put, the destruction of a collection of 50-150 LIVING, CONSCIOUS embryonic cells is equivalent to the destruction of a cluster of 50-150 billion-billion-trillion LIVING and CONSCIOUS cells that constitute the proteins, tissue and organs that make us.

Now, if anyone wants to have the debate about the stage at which we assign life to a single electron, atom, cell or cluster of cells, we can embark in that scientific reductionist exercise, including the philosophical and sociological implications.

A good place to start if you want to get a basic background of stem-cell and the research is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_Cell

 

[owl]

That's interesting you bring that up (about the eugenics jump-off). Look where the research into nuclear fission went.
Anyway, my argument isn't based on morality from a theistic perspective or as defined by the current religious status quo, but rather on causal consequence of ones actions.
Simply put, the destruction of a collection of 50-150 LIVING, CONSCIOUS embryonic cells is equivalent to the destruction of a cluster of 50-150 billion-billion-trillion LIVING and CONSCIOUS cells that constitute the proteins, tissue and organs that make us.

Now, if anyone wants to have the debate about the stage at which we assign life to a single electron, atom, cell or cluster of cells, we can embark in that scientific reductionist exercise, including the philosophical and sociological implications.

A good place to start if you want to get a basic background of stem-cell and the research is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_Cell

Before I address I this, could you please do me one more favor. I understand that google exists and I know LD is reading this, however, those who are more versed at science usually know where others are discussing it at length and without the uneducated attention seeker. How many african nations are venturing into stem cell research compared to european "colonized" nations?

 

[jucurious]

wtf

 

[owl]

wtf

You know my stance on most issues. I can support stem cell research in the hands of an ethnically related strain of humans. In the hands of a people who consider me an insufficient make and model I have a problem. There will always be a need to use conscience human tissue for the greater good. Unfortunately, the ******s of planet earth are playing chess not checkerslol and I would rather those who look most like me to have the advantage than those who despise my natural charms....

 

[jucurious]

....nvm


so Sean,

how would the cells be gathered?

like are they askin ppl at abortion clinics or at the hospital when an infant dies? what is the age max....EXPLAIN POR FAVOR

 

[sean69]

Before I address I this, could you please do me one more favor. I understand that google exists and I know LD is reading this, however, those who are more versed at science usually know where others are discussing it at length and without the uneducated attention seeker. How many african nations are venturing into stem cell research compared to european "colonized" nations?

Wha? You lost me dude. LOL.

....nvm


so Sean,

how would the cells be gathered?

like are they askin ppl at abortion clinics or at the hospital when an infant dies? what is the age max....EXPLAIN POR FAVOR

From my undersatanding it's still illegal (in the US at least) to do ES cell reseach. But i guess they'd harvest the stem cells from willing donors.

 

[Zero]

What about the millions of stem cells in embryos around the world in cryogenic stasis that are flushed due to divorces, deaths and abandonment? Do you shed a tear for them? Stem cells do not come exclusively from aborted fetuses and the implication of that by pro-lifers is disingenuous as hell (but I guess that is par for the course with you net-lobbyist who thrive on half truths and an uninformed audience). If stem cells can cure cancer and the stem cells in question are ALREADY coming from sources where (were they not used) they would be disposed of, what exactly is the issue? Better those stem cells go into sewage plants and dumps than help people, huh? Are you going out on a limb and trying to say that abortions (in some imaginary future) will be FORCED just to harvest stem cells? If so, I can go out on an equally "imaginary", but FAR more realistic distant limb and say those same stem cells could cure every disease from Alzheimer's, to cancer and millions of other diseases in between.

 

[sean69]

What about the millions of stem cells in embryos around the world in cryogenic stasis that are flushed due to divorces, deaths and abandonment? Do you shed a tear for them? Stem cells do not come exclusively from aborted fetuses and the implication of that by pro-lifers is disingenuous as hell (but I guess that is par for the course with you net-lobbyist who thrive on half truths and an uninformed audience). If stem cells can cure cancer and the stem cells in question are ALREADY coming from sources where (were they not used) they would be disposed of, what exactly is the issue? Better those stem cells go into sewage plants and dumps than help people, huh? Are you going out on a limb and trying to say that abortions (in some imaginary future) will be FORCED just to harvest stem cells? If so, I can go out on an equally "imaginary", but FAR more realistic distant limb and say those same stem cells could cure every disease from Alzheimer's, to cancer and millions of other diseases in between.

I never said stem cells are derived exclusively from aborted fetuses. You drew that conclusion on your own.
That being said, you offer an intuitively reasonable argument. But emotionally clouded.
Yes, I will argue that even human embryonic stem cells that have been harvested and cryogenically stored share the same status as stem cells in the womb. Conscious cells, different receptacle. Your argument is a typical one i hear all the time. First you pose the "efficiency" argument:

If an embryo is going to be destroyed anyway, isn't it more efficient to use it for something beneficial?

Followed by the common utilitarian/consequential argument:

The therapeutic benefits of stem cell research (the ends) justify the cost of embryonic life (the means).


Couple both these arguments, sprinkle a little "cure for Alzheimer's" and "cure for cancer" here and there and a pinch of "millions of lives saved" and you get a perfectly sympathetic case.

However, the central underlying premises upon which both pro-life and pro-ES cell research arguments are based is, LIFE. What's the metric for life?

This (IMO) is the nexus of this argument. Everything else is proximate and rhetorical banter.

If you want to engage in that debate fine with me.

As for your claims that the notion of stem cell research curing all diseases is less ludicrous than CACs exploiting it for some form of eugenics or what ever ... what exactly is this based on? A gut feeling? Faith in the integrity and ethical efficacy of applied science? Historical precedence?

 

[GAMETHEORY]

I support it.

Science should be devoted to making life better and reducing human suffering.

Reactionary mumbo-jumbo should not stand in the way.

 

[owl]

Like I stated in an earlier post, my fear is the future usage of the research in the hands of others. The debate here in the United States is whether or not it is morally correct to use human embryos. Ultimately, placing my concerns on a back burner for some time. Well, maybe not that long...Obama '08, right?

 

[sean69]

I support it.

Science should be devoted to making life better and reducing human suffering.

Reactionary mumbo-jumbo should not stand in the way.

And everybody in the world should just get along, hold hands, sing and have a Coke and a smile.

Like I stated in an earlier post, my fear is the future usage of the research in the hands of others. The debate here in the United States is whether or not it is morally correct to use human embryos. Ultimately, placing my concerns on a back burner for some time. Well, maybe not that long...Obama '08, right?

My position has has nothing to do with morality.

 

[owl]

An argument entirely based on emotion.

Understandable.



My position has has nothing to do with morality.

No man as intelligent as you would ever waste a third of their life studying the biology and anatomy of the human if they didn't care. Soldiers and scholars are different because we need to be different...I dig you for you, but you are no heartless man...

 

[sean69]

No man as intelligent as you would ever waste a third of their life studying the biology and anatomy of the human if they didn't care. Soldiers and scholars are different because we need to be different...I dig you for you, but you are no heartless man...

OK, let me rephrase. My argument is not based on morality as a code of conduct which is defined by society. Society being, essentially, the dominant culture ... at the time.

 

[owl]

No doubt my dude...

You have the ability to make choices the savage can't. Be understanding in your judgments. Be quite understanding. I can't afford to be conscientious. I wish I could. Somebody has to be the black american's BUSH...I'm proud of my position. LOL...it's only life, right? I'll see you my dude...give me a second....

Beyond abortions, we have to utilize all elements for the sake of our advancement and survival. I care not what the blind liberal black person sees. In many instances our education only prepares us to be better tools and puppets for the present day rulers. A caste system is very easy to implement. My people in america have a problem accepting that. If it is alright for me to shoot sperm on my woman, why is it a problem utilizing conscious tissue for helping a full grown human. I will never have your ability, Sean. Please understand my argument with respect to the individual delivering it. I know that is a big favor on bgol...... I think we understand that at some point men have to do male things... It is a long ride to freedom.... I'll see you in a second my dude, just give me a second....

 

[sean69]

No doubt my dude...

You have the ability to make choices the savage can't. Be understanding in your judgments. Be quite understanding. I can't afford to be conscientious. I wish I could. Somebody has to be the black american's BUSH...I'm proud of my position. LOL...it's only life, right? I'll see you my dude...give me a second....

Beyond abortions, we have to utilize all elements for the sake of our advancement and survival. I care not what the blind liberal black person sees. In many instances our education only prepares us to be better tools and puppets for the present day rulers. A caste system is very easy to implement. My people in america have a problem accepting that. If it is alright for me to shoot sperm on my woman, why is it a problem utilizing conscious tissue for helping a full grown human. I will never have your ability, Sean. Please understand my argument with respect to the individual delivering it. I know that is a big favor on bgol...... I think we understand that at some point men have to do male things... It is a long ride to freedom.... I'll see you in a second my dude, just give me a second....

Damn son.
But hondareel, I can't call it for everyone else, but I aint no puppet. Once again, I don't rep ideologies like liberalism or conservatism of whatever spatial geometrical orientation between the left and right of either. Said 'robots' tend jettison all proclivity for independent rational thought while struggling to maintain their ideological status.
You lost me on the caste system part.

What's wrong with cutting out the liver or heart or both lungs of a societally worthless paraplegic 6 year old for a productive transplant?
If the answer is nothing, I concede.

 

[owl]

Alright, let's return to this conversation in light of today's events....

 

[sean69]

Alright, let's return to this conversation in light of today's events....

What happened today?
Obama signed the bill to allow the feds to fund stem-cell research?
Sorry, I been mad sick and out of the loop ...

 

[shanebp1978]

Kryptonian Clone Rights Movement!!

​

 

[owl]

Kryptonian Clone Rights Movement!!

​

The homie, Shane...don't change, man...

What happened today?
Obama signed the bill to allow the feds to fund stem-cell research?
Sorry, I been mad sick and out of the loop ...

Yeah, it went down 69....

 

[sean69]

Yeah, it went down 69....

That's good.