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From: maxboxing.com

Did Pacquiao Deserve Fighter of the Decade?


By Ryan Maquiñana

Last week, the media tour de force surrounding the Yuri Foreman-Miguel Cotto showdown at Yankee Stadium was further aided by the 85th annual Boxing Writers Association of America Awards Dinner at the Roosevelt Hotel. A venerable who’s who of the sport attended the banquet, from ESPN’s Joe Tessitore to former heavyweight champion Joe Frazier. In fact, it was “Smokin’ Joe” who presented the night’s guest of honor, Manny Pacquiao, with not only his record-tying third “Sugar Ray Robinson Fighter of the Year” award, but an even more prestigious honor afterward: “Fighter of the Decade.”

When the BWAA’s initial press release hit the public, its effect on the fans was comparable to Moses parting the Red Sea. For over a year, the topic du jour on everyone’s minds- from the casual bystander to the most hardcore of purists- has been the prospect of a fight between Pacquiao and Floyd “Money” Mayweather Jr., to settle the debate of who unquestionably reigned supreme over the boxing world. As such, it was only natural that such conjecture would spill over into the BWAA’s overwhelming vote in favor of the “Pac-Man,” despite Floyd’s unblemished record, world title belts in multiple weight classes, and seemingly extraterrestrial ability in the ring.



In this article, I hope to accomplish two things. First, I will attempt to define the term “pound-for-pound” in order to have a measurable list of criteria to determine “Fighter of the Decade.” Second, I hope to subsequently contrast the two future Hall of Famers from January 1, 2000, through December 31, 2009, to see if I agree with the BWAA voters’ conclusion.



“POUND-FOR-POUND” DEFINED…



Defining "pound-for-pound" is a very subjective matter and there are a variety of ways to do it. One school of thought is purely skill-based, but I feel there are inherent problems with this approach, because, while it is undeniable that a fighter like Zab Judah has more physical tools than Ricky Hatton, would anyone argue with the fact that it was Hatton, not Judah, who was on The Ring magazine’s top ten pound-for-pound list for four consecutive years?



Hatton cemented his spot by beating Kostya Tszyu and defending his junior welterweight crown for nearly four years. Conversely, the mercurial Judah was knocked out by a Tszyu right hand in two rounds, and had a tenuous grasp on the welterweight crown until decisive losses to Carlos Baldomir and Miguel Cotto banished him from consensus pound-for-pound discussions a second time. In that specific case, one fighter’s results in the ring trumped another fighter’s superior abilities.



Second, there exists another belief that in defining pound-for-pound, one must compare two fighters, and the one who would win a pure head-to-head battle, under the hypothetical that they shared the same weight class, should be the higher ranked fighter. However, while this theory would make absolute sense if the today’s generation fought the best available opposition more often, this thought process is flawed on some level. I will offer this hypothetical:



Fighter X is extremely talented and rules the welterweight division with an iron fist, earning him a spot somewhere on the pound-for-pound list. For the next seven years, a parade of five fellow pound-for-pound fighters ranging from 140 to 154 pounds call him out through the media or to his face, and their promoters offer Fighter X’s handlers reasonable terms to make a few mega-bouts happen. These are legitimate challenges that the fans and media have clamored for Fighter X to accept, since he has taken the path of least resistance his entire career and we all want him to silence any doubts by proving his greatness in the ring.



Unfortunately, Fighter X deliberately chooses not to fight any of these viable opponents. He is rather content to dominate lesser fighters for the rest of his prime, which he does so with ease. Under this scenario, can even his most ardent of fans continue to rate him pound-for-pound superior to the other five fighters when he thumbs his nose at them by refusing to take these readily available challenges? Is one’s individual certainty that Fighter X would beat all five of them relevant at all for pound-for-pound dialogue, since his opponents are inviting him to the ring, and yet, he makes little to no effort to fight them?



It is arguable that the pound-for-pound moniker was created for Sugar Ray Robinson, not only because the public thought he could move up from welterweight to middleweight and beat Jake LaMotta (a man who reportedly outweighed Robinson by 15 pounds in the ring), but also because he actually did it. After securing the middleweight crown in 1951 and continuing to defeat all comers, Sugar Ray had an offer on the table to move up fifteen more pounds and fight Joey Maxim for his light heavyweight title one year later.



But Robinson didn’t bask in the admiration, rest on his accolades, and go about his regular business at 160 pounds. To me, the pound-for-pound greatness in Robinson lies in the fact that, while many predicted he could emerge victorious in a fight against Maxim, he actually confronted him to confirm it in the ring. Robinson stood toe-to-toe with Maxim for 13 rounds and would have pulled off the upset, if not for heat exhaustion. In sum, there were no pit stops in jumping weight classes; he cleaned out his divisions and turned the talk of hypothetical dream fights into action. Robinson may have lost the battle to Maxim, but won the war against doubt, because he left nothing to the imagination of the fans and media. Aside from Charley Burley, there are very few “what ifs” on his final tally of 173-19-6 (108) with two no-contests, which is a big reason why Muhammad Ali himself conceded that Robinson was the greatest to put on a pair of boxing trunks.



My underlying point in debunking the latter school of thought is that believing Fighter X can beat Fighter Y and seeing him actually prove it are two different things. In other words, one cannot give a fighter credit for something he never actually accomplished.



A third group of people point to an undefeated record as a means for defining pound-for-pound, but look at Joe Calzaghe. For years, he was undefeated, but he was punished by the boxing world for padding his record and avoiding elite fighters who were available at 160, 168, and 175 pounds. In essence, the “0” on his record did not define him as a pound-for-pound great; the competition he accepted and conversely avoided were the deciding factors. It wasn’t until he actually took some risks later in his career (albeit calculated ones against aging greats) that finally earned him entry into the upper echelon of the pound-for-pound lists.



Finally, there is a fourth party of pound-for-pound experts who see quality of competition faced and beaten alone as a benchmark. However, if one solely takes that view into account, quasi-active fighters like Roy Jones and Marco Antonio Barrera have longer resumes than most of the current consensus top ten. The truth, however, is that these first-ballot Hall of Famers haven’t defeated any elite fighters lately. While a master of the game like Bernard Hopkins managed to stay atop the upper half of the list the last few years, his lackluster showing against an old Jones- who was well past his prime- subsequently resulted in his gradual descent down the list. Facing an elite boxer is just as important as the circumstances surrounding the fight.



With those four ingredients considered, while too spicy or bland to stand out on their own, combining them together would make for a soup irresistible to the boxing fans’ taste buds. In other words, I think one must weigh all of these four factors together to define the term pound-for-pound: skills, theoretical ability head-to-head, propensity for taking available risks, and last but not least, quality of competition. Let’s apply this definition to Manny and Floyd over the past decade.



SO WHO’S NUMBER ONE?...



Based on weighing the criteria above, I agree with the BWAA’s decision to award “Fighter of the Decade” to Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather, but by the slightest of margins.



First, regarding skills, while there are things Manny has not done well during the early part of this decade, he owns other attributes that are arguably unparalleled. For one, no other active fighter in the sport, Mayweather included, possesses the specific quartet of above-average hand speed, stamina, power, and work rate. While Manny still gets tagged from time to time, he has improved slight nuances in his defense as well, especially on the inside. His chin is underrated; he has not been officially floored since coming to America aside from an actual slip in his first fight with Barrera in 2003, and that was almost seven years and four weight classes ago. More importantly, Freddie Roach has developed Pacquiao’s offensive repertoire into a more complete arsenal. Starting with the Hector Velazquez fight in 2003, he unleashed the quickest right hook in the business, which he utilized to stun numerous opponents before going to his vaunted left cross to stop them. No longer has Pacquiao been dismissed as a basic one-two slugger. It also goes without saying that he’s one of the most vicious finishers in the sport, as evidenced by his 77% knockout rate during the decade.



On the other hand, what Mayweather may lack in work rate or accumulated stoppages is more than compensated for by his immaculate defense. Once Floyd gets into the shoulder roll, it’s astounding how impossible he becomes to hit, even on the ropes. While he hasn’t exhibited the same power he had from 130 through 140 pounds, his pinpoint accuracy, footwork, and ring generalship have overwhelmed his competition at welterweight. Like Pacquiao, he was officially knocked down only once during the decade, a dubious knee after injuring himself against Carlos Hernandez in 2001.



SKILLS: Mayweather



Second, in assessing how he would fare in a head-to-head matchup with Mayweather, people on both sides of this issue have offered valid points in backing their man. While this is just one writer’s opinion, I give a slight edge to Manny, if they ever fought. I feel that, stylistically, this is the worst possible matchup for Floyd. Pacquiao’s a southpaw with blinding speed, and he’s become very accurate, to boot. In a nutshell, the difference between Manny and fighters who enjoyed early success against Mayweather like Zab Judah, Oscar De La Hoya, and Shane Mosley, lies in his superior stamina and work rate. Sustained, accurate pressure over 12 rounds is something Floyd has never dealt with. While Floyd has the best defense and counter-punching skills in the sport, and Pacquiao struggled against a masterful counter-puncher like Juan Manuel Marquez in 2004, the “Pac-Man” of 2009 was on a whole different level in all facets of his individual game. Therefore, I think Pacquiao could outland Mayweather on his way to a split or majority decision victory.



HEAD-TO-HEAD: Pacquiao by a nose



While the first two criteria were close, the last two made my final decision a lot easier. When discussing the inclination to take risks and fighting quality competition this decade, Manny Pacquiao took on almost every available challenge as he moved up in weight, with each circumstance as disadvantageous as possible.



After six consecutive stoppage wins in his native Philippines to open from late 1999-to-mid-2001, he flew to America for the first time on only two weeks’ notice to knock out Lehlohonolo Ledwaba, a top-15 pound-for-pound fighter at the time, for the IBF 122-pound title. After two more wins at junior featherweight, following a foulfest against the late Agapito Sanchez in 2001, which resulted in a controversial technical draw, Pacquiao decided to move up in weight. In his first 126-pound fight in the States in 2003, he knocked out Barrera, then the number one featherweight and consensus number three pound-for-pound fighter, in his de facto backyard of San Antonio, in front of 10,000 Mexican fans. For his first fight at junior lightweight in 2005, he didn’t take a breather. He chose a 47-2 Erik Morales and even conceded the choice of gloves to “El Terrible” (a negotiating gaffe, which I feel is partially responsible for his unwillingness today to give in to Mayweather’s extra testing demands). Keep in mind that in all three instances, he was moving up in weight for the first time under unfavorable situations. After losing the first fight to Morales in a clear but close decision, he stayed true to my pound-for-pound definition by knocking his rival out twice over the following year (admittedly, Morales was a shell of his former self by the third fight). Then, he cleaned out the division by beating Barrera again and Marquez at 130, the two best fighters left at the weight.



Then throw in the 2008 world title win over David Diaz in his first and only fight at 135 pounds, for a lightweight belt, which I would analogize to Floyd’s win over Arturo Gatti as a similar pit stop against a paper champion. Add another challenge in moving up 12 more pounds in his first fight at welterweight against De La Hoya, where again he was the underdog, who won via devastating ninth-round stoppage. In his first fight at junior welterweight, he brutally leveled Ricky Hatton, who was undefeated at the 140-pound limit. However, in true pound-for-pound fashion, Pacquiao wasn’t done. He put an exclamation on the decade by moving north seven pounds back to welterweight and wresting the WBO crown from Miguel Cotto in a one-sided affair (albeit at a catchweight of 145 pounds).



In all, Pacquiao finished the decade with a record of 23-1-2, with 20 knockouts. He accumulated six world titles in as many divisions, with three of them coming against the clear number one fighter or true champion in the division (that does not include his 1998 upset win in Thailand over WBC champ Chatchai Sasakul to become THE RING’s number one flyweight in the world). The prospect of Manny Pacquiao taking on dream fights in the decade hasn’t solely been a topic of conversation or speculation by the media and fans; he’s actually been living them and coming away victorious, repeatedly. That to me is the true definition of someone worthy of “Fighter of the Decade.”



That’s not to discredit Floyd Mayweather’s achievements. He was deservedly pound-for-pound best and well on his way to winning “Fighter of the Decade” by a landslide when Hopkins lost to Jermain Taylor in 2005. At the time, the Grand Rapids native had wiped the 130-division clean by stopping the late Diego Corrales in 2001, and after struggling against Jose Luis Castillo in his initial fight at lightweight a year later, decisioned him easily in an immediate rematch and dominated the best available there. What he did at those two weight classes was emblematic of my pound-for-pound definition, and had he continued a similar pattern the last six years, he would have been the clear cut number one in my book, by the end of the decade.



But the truth is that he did not do that. His quality of competition and desire to take risks inexplicably stalled, once he took the pound-for-pound title, starting with his first pay-per-view fight, which coincided with his junior welterweight debut against Gatti. Granted, Floyd beat him in his adopted hometown of Atlantic City, but he departed 140 pounds when Tszyu, the true champ, was available. People might argue that Tszyu lost to Hatton, and Floyd beat the Englishman, but that is not exactly tying up a loose end when he forced Hatton to move up seven pounds to welterweight. Hatton was the champ at 140 pounds, not 147. That’s fighting with an advantage. While he beat Baldomir for the lineal title, can anyone say with a straight face that he was elite? Floyd was supposed to cruise in that bout, and he met expectations.



Now I will say Mayweather deserved full credit for moving up and beating then-titlist De La Hoya for his first and only fight at junior middleweight. That was a true challenge. But instead of building on that momentous victory, he “retired” after the Hatton fight, leaving his recent accomplishments at 140 and 147 much to be desired. Cotto, who was undefeated, and Margarito pre-“Plastergate” were big money fights against legitimate welterweight beltholders, but he never made any genuine effort to make those fights to clean out the division, regardless if people thought he would theoretically beat them. Those were high-risk challenges, and he never proved it in the ring.



After returning from his retirement, Floyd took on a fellow top pound-for-pound talent in Marquez to conclude the decade in 2009, but with strings attached. While some have criticized Pacquiao for having Cotto fight at 145 pounds, it was Floyd who reportedly agreed to the same catchweight agreement against Marquez at 144, then reneged on it by weighing in three pounds heavier. This was also a huge advantage, since Marquez, the current lightweight champion, had already ascended two weight classes and now faced a severe handicap of fighting the heavier man (Contrast this mismatch to Marquez’s two fights with Pacquiao, which took place at the Mexican’s fighting weight). Using those facts, Las Vegas oddsmakers pegged Floyd a 3-to-1 favorite as the man known as “Money” coasted to another decision where the outcome was never in doubt. Again, I ask the readers: Was that really a risky bout against an elite fighter under the fairest of circumstances?



For his count, Floyd was 18-0 with eight knockouts during the decade. He acquired or defended titles in five weight classes. He defeated the number one fighter at junior lightweight (Genaro Hernandez in 1998) and lightweight (Castillo), but in reality, did he clean out 140, 147, or 154? The answer is a resounding no, especially at welterweight, when you consider that the fighter ahead of him in the current consensus pound-for-pound list is fighting in that division as we speak. Counting Corrales, Castillo, and De La Hoya, Floyd Mayweather took on three true challenges in ten years. That is not enough to crown someone “Fighter of the Decade.”





RISK-TAKING: Pacquiao



QUALITY OF COMPETITION: Pacquiao



Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather will forever be linked in boxing annals, based on their memorable feats over the past ten years. However, considering what the Filipino has added to his overall resume during the period of the American’s retirement, combined with what I perceive to be a superior level of competition faced overall, Floyd’s body of work has been eclipsed by a man who justified the BWAA’s choice of “Fighter of the Decade.” If Floyd wants to plant the seeds of doubt into the voters’ minds, he just has to do one thing—beat Manny Pacquiao in the ring. Plain and simple.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

From: maxboxing.com

Did Pacquiao Deserve Fighter of the Decade?


By Ryan Maquiñana

Last week, the media tour de force surrounding the Yuri Foreman-Miguel Cotto showdown at Yankee Stadium was further aided by the 85th annual Boxing Writers Association of America Awards Dinner at the Roosevelt Hotel. A venerable who’s who of the sport attended the banquet, from ESPN’s Joe Tessitore to former heavyweight champion Joe Frazier. In fact, it was “Smokin’ Joe” who presented the night’s guest of honor, Manny Pacquiao, with not only his record-tying third “Sugar Ray Robinson Fighter of the Year” award, but an even more prestigious honor afterward: “Fighter of the Decade.”

When the BWAA’s initial press release hit the public, its effect on the fans was comparable to Moses parting the Red Sea. For over a year, the topic du jour on everyone’s minds- from the casual bystander to the most hardcore of purists- has been the prospect of a fight between Pacquiao and Floyd “Money” Mayweather Jr., to settle the debate of who unquestionably reigned supreme over the boxing world. As such, it was only natural that such conjecture would spill over into the BWAA’s overwhelming vote in favor of the “Pac-Man,” despite Floyd’s unblemished record, world title belts in multiple weight classes, and seemingly extraterrestrial ability in the ring.



In this article, I hope to accomplish two things. First, I will attempt to define the term “pound-for-pound” in order to have a measurable list of criteria to determine “Fighter of the Decade.” Second, I hope to subsequently contrast the two future Hall of Famers from January 1, 2000, through December 31, 2009, to see if I agree with the BWAA voters’ conclusion.



“POUND-FOR-POUND” DEFINED…



Defining "pound-for-pound" is a very subjective matter and there are a variety of ways to do it. One school of thought is purely skill-based, but I feel there are inherent problems with this approach, because, while it is undeniable that a fighter like Zab Judah has more physical tools than Ricky Hatton, would anyone argue with the fact that it was Hatton, not Judah, who was on The Ring magazine’s top ten pound-for-pound list for four consecutive years?



Hatton cemented his spot by beating Kostya Tszyu and defending his junior welterweight crown for nearly four years. Conversely, the mercurial Judah was knocked out by a Tszyu right hand in two rounds, and had a tenuous grasp on the welterweight crown until decisive losses to Carlos Baldomir and Miguel Cotto banished him from consensus pound-for-pound discussions a second time. In that specific case, one fighter’s results in the ring trumped another fighter’s superior abilities.



Second, there exists another belief that in defining pound-for-pound, one must compare two fighters, and the one who would win a pure head-to-head battle, under the hypothetical that they shared the same weight class, should be the higher ranked fighter. However, while this theory would make absolute sense if the today’s generation fought the best available opposition more often, this thought process is flawed on some level. I will offer this hypothetical:



Fighter X is extremely talented and rules the welterweight division with an iron fist, earning him a spot somewhere on the pound-for-pound list. For the next seven years, a parade of five fellow pound-for-pound fighters ranging from 140 to 154 pounds call him out through the media or to his face, and their promoters offer Fighter X’s handlers reasonable terms to make a few mega-bouts happen. These are legitimate challenges that the fans and media have clamored for Fighter X to accept, since he has taken the path of least resistance his entire career and we all want him to silence any doubts by proving his greatness in the ring.



Unfortunately, Fighter X deliberately chooses not to fight any of these viable opponents. He is rather content to dominate lesser fighters for the rest of his prime, which he does so with ease. Under this scenario, can even his most ardent of fans continue to rate him pound-for-pound superior to the other five fighters when he thumbs his nose at them by refusing to take these readily available challenges? Is one’s individual certainty that Fighter X would beat all five of them relevant at all for pound-for-pound dialogue, since his opponents are inviting him to the ring, and yet, he makes little to no effort to fight them?



It is arguable that the pound-for-pound moniker was created for Sugar Ray Robinson, not only because the public thought he could move up from welterweight to middleweight and beat Jake LaMotta (a man who reportedly outweighed Robinson by 15 pounds in the ring), but also because he actually did it. After securing the middleweight crown in 1951 and continuing to defeat all comers, Sugar Ray had an offer on the table to move up fifteen more pounds and fight Joey Maxim for his light heavyweight title one year later.



But Robinson didn’t bask in the admiration, rest on his accolades, and go about his regular business at 160 pounds. To me, the pound-for-pound greatness in Robinson lies in the fact that, while many predicted he could emerge victorious in a fight against Maxim, he actually confronted him to confirm it in the ring. Robinson stood toe-to-toe with Maxim for 13 rounds and would have pulled off the upset, if not for heat exhaustion. In sum, there were no pit stops in jumping weight classes; he cleaned out his divisions and turned the talk of hypothetical dream fights into action. Robinson may have lost the battle to Maxim, but won the war against doubt, because he left nothing to the imagination of the fans and media. Aside from Charley Burley, there are very few “what ifs” on his final tally of 173-19-6 (108) with two no-contests, which is a big reason why Muhammad Ali himself conceded that Robinson was the greatest to put on a pair of boxing trunks.



My underlying point in debunking the latter school of thought is that believing Fighter X can beat Fighter Y and seeing him actually prove it are two different things. In other words, one cannot give a fighter credit for something he never actually accomplished.



A third group of people point to an undefeated record as a means for defining pound-for-pound, but look at Joe Calzaghe. For years, he was undefeated, but he was punished by the boxing world for padding his record and avoiding elite fighters who were available at 160, 168, and 175 pounds. In essence, the “0” on his record did not define him as a pound-for-pound great; the competition he accepted and conversely avoided were the deciding factors. It wasn’t until he actually took some risks later in his career (albeit calculated ones against aging greats) that finally earned him entry into the upper echelon of the pound-for-pound lists.



Finally, there is a fourth party of pound-for-pound experts who see quality of competition faced and beaten alone as a benchmark. However, if one solely takes that view into account, quasi-active fighters like Roy Jones and Marco Antonio Barrera have longer resumes than most of the current consensus top ten. The truth, however, is that these first-ballot Hall of Famers haven’t defeated any elite fighters lately. While a master of the game like Bernard Hopkins managed to stay atop the upper half of the list the last few years, his lackluster showing against an old Jones- who was well past his prime- subsequently resulted in his gradual descent down the list. Facing an elite boxer is just as important as the circumstances surrounding the fight.



With those four ingredients considered, while too spicy or bland to stand out on their own, combining them together would make for a soup irresistible to the boxing fans’ taste buds. In other words, I think one must weigh all of these four factors together to define the term pound-for-pound: skills, theoretical ability head-to-head, propensity for taking available risks, and last but not least, quality of competition. Let’s apply this definition to Manny and Floyd over the past decade.



SO WHO’S NUMBER ONE?...



Based on weighing the criteria above, I agree with the BWAA’s decision to award “Fighter of the Decade” to Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather, but by the slightest of margins.



First, regarding skills, while there are things Manny has not done well during the early part of this decade, he owns other attributes that are arguably unparalleled. For one, no other active fighter in the sport, Mayweather included, possesses the specific quartet of above-average hand speed, stamina, power, and work rate. While Manny still gets tagged from time to time, he has improved slight nuances in his defense as well, especially on the inside. His chin is underrated; he has not been officially floored since coming to America aside from an actual slip in his first fight with Barrera in 2003, and that was almost seven years and four weight classes ago. More importantly, Freddie Roach has developed Pacquiao’s offensive repertoire into a more complete arsenal. Starting with the Hector Velazquez fight in 2003, he unleashed the quickest right hook in the business, which he utilized to stun numerous opponents before going to his vaunted left cross to stop them. No longer has Pacquiao been dismissed as a basic one-two slugger. It also goes without saying that he’s one of the most vicious finishers in the sport, as evidenced by his 77% knockout rate during the decade.



On the other hand, what Mayweather may lack in work rate or accumulated stoppages is more than compensated for by his immaculate defense. Once Floyd gets into the shoulder roll, it’s astounding how impossible he becomes to hit, even on the ropes. While he hasn’t exhibited the same power he had from 130 through 140 pounds, his pinpoint accuracy, footwork, and ring generalship have overwhelmed his competition at welterweight. Like Pacquiao, he was officially knocked down only once during the decade, a dubious knee after injuring himself against Carlos Hernandez in 2001.



SKILLS: Mayweather



Second, in assessing how he would fare in a head-to-head matchup with Mayweather, people on both sides of this issue have offered valid points in backing their man. While this is just one writer’s opinion, I give a slight edge to Manny, if they ever fought. I feel that, stylistically, this is the worst possible matchup for Floyd. Pacquiao’s a southpaw with blinding speed, and he’s become very accurate, to boot. In a nutshell, the difference between Manny and fighters who enjoyed early success against Mayweather like Zab Judah, Oscar De La Hoya, and Shane Mosley, lies in his superior stamina and work rate. Sustained, accurate pressure over 12 rounds is something Floyd has never dealt with. While Floyd has the best defense and counter-punching skills in the sport, and Pacquiao struggled against a masterful counter-puncher like Juan Manuel Marquez in 2004, the “Pac-Man” of 2009 was on a whole different level in all facets of his individual game. Therefore, I think Pacquiao could outland Mayweather on his way to a split or majority decision victory.



HEAD-TO-HEAD: Pacquiao by a nose



While the first two criteria were close, the last two made my final decision a lot easier. When discussing the inclination to take risks and fighting quality competition this decade, Manny Pacquiao took on almost every available challenge as he moved up in weight, with each circumstance as disadvantageous as possible.



After six consecutive stoppage wins in his native Philippines to open from late 1999-to-mid-2001, he flew to America for the first time on only two weeks’ notice to knock out Lehlohonolo Ledwaba, a top-15 pound-for-pound fighter at the time, for the IBF 122-pound title. After two more wins at junior featherweight, following a foulfest against the late Agapito Sanchez in 2001, which resulted in a controversial technical draw, Pacquiao decided to move up in weight. In his first 126-pound fight in the States in 2003, he knocked out Barrera, then the number one featherweight and consensus number three pound-for-pound fighter, in his de facto backyard of San Antonio, in front of 10,000 Mexican fans. For his first fight at junior lightweight in 2005, he didn’t take a breather. He chose a 47-2 Erik Morales and even conceded the choice of gloves to “El Terrible” (a negotiating gaffe, which I feel is partially responsible for his unwillingness today to give in to Mayweather’s extra testing demands). Keep in mind that in all three instances, he was moving up in weight for the first time under unfavorable situations. After losing the first fight to Morales in a clear but close decision, he stayed true to my pound-for-pound definition by knocking his rival out twice over the following year (admittedly, Morales was a shell of his former self by the third fight). Then, he cleaned out the division by beating Barrera again and Marquez at 130, the two best fighters left at the weight.



Then throw in the 2008 world title win over David Diaz in his first and only fight at 135 pounds, for a lightweight belt, which I would analogize to Floyd’s win over Arturo Gatti as a similar pit stop against a paper champion. Add another challenge in moving up 12 more pounds in his first fight at welterweight against De La Hoya, where again he was the underdog, who won via devastating ninth-round stoppage. In his first fight at junior welterweight, he brutally leveled Ricky Hatton, who was undefeated at the 140-pound limit. However, in true pound-for-pound fashion, Pacquiao wasn’t done. He put an exclamation on the decade by moving north seven pounds back to welterweight and wresting the WBO crown from Miguel Cotto in a one-sided affair (albeit at a catchweight of 145 pounds).



In all, Pacquiao finished the decade with a record of 23-1-2, with 20 knockouts. He accumulated six world titles in as many divisions, with three of them coming against the clear number one fighter or true champion in the division (that does not include his 1998 upset win in Thailand over WBC champ Chatchai Sasakul to become THE RING’s number one flyweight in the world). The prospect of Manny Pacquiao taking on dream fights in the decade hasn’t solely been a topic of conversation or speculation by the media and fans; he’s actually been living them and coming away victorious, repeatedly. That to me is the true definition of someone worthy of “Fighter of the Decade.”



That’s not to discredit Floyd Mayweather’s achievements. He was deservedly pound-for-pound best and well on his way to winning “Fighter of the Decade” by a landslide when Hopkins lost to Jermain Taylor in 2005. At the time, the Grand Rapids native had wiped the 130-division clean by stopping the late Diego Corrales in 2001, and after struggling against Jose Luis Castillo in his initial fight at lightweight a year later, decisioned him easily in an immediate rematch and dominated the best available there. What he did at those two weight classes was emblematic of my pound-for-pound definition, and had he continued a similar pattern the last six years, he would have been the clear cut number one in my book, by the end of the decade.



But the truth is that he did not do that. His quality of competition and desire to take risks inexplicably stalled, once he took the pound-for-pound title, starting with his first pay-per-view fight, which coincided with his junior welterweight debut against Gatti. Granted, Floyd beat him in his adopted hometown of Atlantic City, but he departed 140 pounds when Tszyu, the true champ, was available. People might argue that Tszyu lost to Hatton, and Floyd beat the Englishman, but that is not exactly tying up a loose end when he forced Hatton to move up seven pounds to welterweight. Hatton was the champ at 140 pounds, not 147. That’s fighting with an advantage. While he beat Baldomir for the lineal title, can anyone say with a straight face that he was elite? Floyd was supposed to cruise in that bout, and he met expectations.



Now I will say Mayweather deserved full credit for moving up and beating then-titlist De La Hoya for his first and only fight at junior middleweight. That was a true challenge. But instead of building on that momentous victory, he “retired” after the Hatton fight, leaving his recent accomplishments at 140 and 147 much to be desired. Cotto, who was undefeated, and Margarito pre-“Plastergate” were big money fights against legitimate welterweight beltholders, but he never made any genuine effort to make those fights to clean out the division, regardless if people thought he would theoretically beat them. Those were high-risk challenges, and he never proved it in the ring.



After returning from his retirement, Floyd took on a fellow top pound-for-pound talent in Marquez to conclude the decade in 2009, but with strings attached. While some have criticized Pacquiao for having Cotto fight at 145 pounds, it was Floyd who reportedly agreed to the same catchweight agreement against Marquez at 144, then reneged on it by weighing in three pounds heavier. This was also a huge advantage, since Marquez, the current lightweight champion, had already ascended two weight classes and now faced a severe handicap of fighting the heavier man (Contrast this mismatch to Marquez’s two fights with Pacquiao, which took place at the Mexican’s fighting weight). Using those facts, Las Vegas oddsmakers pegged Floyd a 3-to-1 favorite as the man known as “Money” coasted to another decision where the outcome was never in doubt. Again, I ask the readers: Was that really a risky bout against an elite fighter under the fairest of circumstances?



For his count, Floyd was 18-0 with eight knockouts during the decade. He acquired or defended titles in five weight classes. He defeated the number one fighter at junior lightweight (Genaro Hernandez in 1998) and lightweight (Castillo), but in reality, did he clean out 140, 147, or 154? The answer is a resounding no, especially at welterweight, when you consider that the fighter ahead of him in the current consensus pound-for-pound list is fighting in that division as we speak. Counting Corrales, Castillo, and De La Hoya, Floyd Mayweather took on three true challenges in ten years. That is not enough to crown someone “Fighter of the Decade.”





RISK-TAKING: Pacquiao



QUALITY OF COMPETITION: Pacquiao



Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather will forever be linked in boxing annals, based on their memorable feats over the past ten years. However, considering what the Filipino has added to his overall resume during the period of the American’s retirement, combined with what I perceive to be a superior level of competition faced overall, Floyd’s body of work has been eclipsed by a man who justified the BWAA’s choice of “Fighter of the Decade.” If Floyd wants to plant the seeds of doubt into the voters’ minds, he just has to do one thing—beat Manny Pacquiao in the ring. Plain and simple.

I don't see how anyone can argue with this article. The only contradiction I see is how Floyd's defense is supposed to be so great yet its being tested against mostly bummy competition. The few times Mayweather did step up and fight someone decent, except the Corrales fight, he did not seem untouchable. Castillo put hands on him and arguably won their first fight and Mayweather's effectiveness against De La Hoya was so limited that he had to go home with a split decision. An old Mosley almost knocked him out. Mayweather is good but his work over lightweight is extremely overrated IMO.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I don't see how anyone can argue with this article. The only contradiction I see is how Floyd's defense is supposed to be so great yet its being tested against mostly bummy competition. The few times Mayweather did step up and fight someone decent, except the Corrales fight, he did not seem untouchable. Castillo put hands on him and arguably won their first fight and Mayweather's effectiveness against De La Hoya was so limited that he had to go home with a split decision. An old Mosley almost knocked him out. Mayweather is good but his work over lightweight is extremely overrated IMO.

I was going to ignore the article because it's cleverly disguised bullshit. A guy who's been a top guy for 5 years over a guy who's been a top guy the entire decade is robbery.
But you have several mistakes in your post I'd love to address. Mayweather only left Vegas with a split decision in the DLH fight because it was DLH and it was Vegas. He clearly won that fight and while the early rounds were tight and could have gone either way, it was one sided after the sixth. Considering he was fighting a 160 lbs Oscar and not a spent 147 lbs Oscar, he definitely deserves major credit for that. At that point, Oscar not only hadn't lost in years, he was beating bitches up (Vargas, Mayorga). And he did not almost get knocked out by Mosley. He got rocked, certainly and if he didn't clinch at the right time, he definitely would have taken a knockdown but he still won every round after that and started to come on before the 2 round was over. "Fighter of the Decade" isn't about what a guy did in a particular division but what they've done over a span of time (actually the decade started in 2001 and doesn't end until the end of this year but I'm tired of fighting stupid people all the time) and Mayweather had been more impressive over these last ten years than Pacquiao. Pacquiao could win "Fighter of the Second Half of the Decade", though.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I was going to ignore the article because it's cleverly disguised bullshit. A guy who's been a top guy for 5 years over a guy who's been a top guy the entire decade is robbery.
But you have several mistakes in your post I'd love to address. Mayweather only left Vegas with a split decision in the DLH fight because it was DLH and it was Vegas. He clearly won that fight and while the early rounds were tight and could have gone either way, it was one sided after the sixth. Considering he was fighting a 160 lbs Oscar and not a spent 147 lbs Oscar, he definitely deserves major credit for that. At that point, Oscar not only hadn't lost in years, he was beating bitches up (Vargas, Mayorga). And he did not almost get knocked out by Mosley. He got rocked, certainly and if he didn't clinch at the right time, he definitely would have taken a knockdown but he still won every round after that and started to come on before the 2 round was over. "Fighter of the Decade" isn't about what a guy did in a particular division but what they've done over a span of time (actually the decade started in 2001 and doesn't end until the end of this year but I'm tired of fighting stupid people all the time) and Mayweather had been more impressive over these last ten years than Pacquiao. Pacquiao could win "Fighter of the Second Half of the Decade", though.

I disagree. I always thought Mayweather fought a shot Oscar. You state that Oscar hadn't lost in years when he fought Mayweather but he had lost arguably 3 of his last 4 fights when he got to Mayweather and one of those was by KO. I thought Mayweather's win over Oscar was highly unimpressive given he was the young gun and he failed to take out an old Oscar in convincing fashion. A young Mosley beat a young Oscar in much more dominant fashion and Mosley was coming up in weight to fight him too. Even those wins over Mayorga and Vargas were borderline garbage as Oscar chose to fight those guys after they received the beatings of their lives by Felix Trinidad.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I disagree. I always thought Mayweather fought a shot Oscar. You state that Oscar hadn't lost in years when he fought Mayweather but he had lost arguably 3 of his last 4 fights when he got to Mayweather and one of those was by KO. I thought Mayweather's win over Oscar was highly unimpressive given he was the young gun and he failed to take out an old Oscar in convincing fashion. A young Mosley beat a young Oscar in much more dominant fashion and Mosley was coming up in weight to fight him too. Even those wins over Mayorga and Vargas were borderline garbage as Oscar chose to fight those guys after they received the beatings of their lives by Felix Trinidad.

I have never beer a De La Hoya fan, for such a "great" fighter he received far too many "gift victories" for my taste. That said, the loss to Hopkins and non-victory over Sturm were out of his weight range in the same vein Juan Manuel Marquez can't be knocked for his Mayweather loss. In his weight class (jr. middle) he had only loss to Shane Mosley, who it was later found to be using PEDs. The first Mosley win was much more impressive but Mayweather was making his debut at a jr. middle catchweight while Shane fought Oscar in his third welterweight fight. While I've never liked him and didn't think he would win, I don't think it's reasonable to say he was shot when he fought Floyd Mayweather. Past his prime, yes but not shot.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I gotta disagree Dave. I'm not a huge fan of either guy but Manny's resume and performances in his biggest fights overshadow Floyd's. Just the names alone on Manny's resume are tighter than Floyd's, not by much. Look, none of these guys compare to the fighters of yesteryear, these guys didn't talk a whole bunch of shit to the media and then fought b and c list fighters like Floyd has done since he became p4p, you guys give Floyd too many passes and too many excuses. Manny in my opinion did way more with the decade than Floyd did, Money wasted his prime fighting garbage. No matter the reasons, Floyd wasted his time and more importantly, the fans time with his comp at 140-147. But you guys know I've always given Floyd his props for the DLH fight, but that WAS an old Oscar any way you wanna slice it. Floyd is not a risk taker for whatever reason, because of that he will never attain the label of greatness he feels he deserves. Too many what ifs with Floyd. Great fighters don't leave as many match ups on the table as he has his whole career. Most of the guys he never fought in the divisions he went through were the top guys in their divisions at the time, that is not greatness, fighting and beating those guys is greatness.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I have never beer a De La Hoya fan, for such a "great" fighter he received far too many "gift victories" for my taste. That said, the loss to Hopkins and non-victory over Sturm were out of his weight range in the same vein Juan Manuel Marquez can't be knocked for his Mayweather loss. In his weight class (jr. middle) he had only loss to Shane Mosley, who it was later found to be using PEDs. The first Mosley win was much more impressive but Mayweather was making his debut at a jr. middle catchweight while Shane fought Oscar in his third welterweight fight. While I've never liked him and didn't think he would win, I don't think it's reasonable to say he was shot when he fought Floyd Mayweather. Past his prime, yes but not shot.

I can't see a fight between the Oscar who fought Trinidad and Floyd going the same way, especially at 154. Oscar was old and unlike the young Oscar, fighting mainly flatfooted, but I agree - not shot.
I feel a bit differently about Oscar though, I give it to him for fighting the guys in his division that the fans wanted him to, has Floyd ever done that? Do you believe that Floyd deserves more props than a guy like Oscar, undefeated but against lesser comp? Floyd is very smart and a great businessman, he knows who to fight and when, to keep his unblemished record.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I have never beer a De La Hoya fan, for such a "great" fighter he received far too many "gift victories" for my taste. That said, the loss to Hopkins and non-victory over Sturm were out of his weight range in the same vein Juan Manuel Marquez can't be knocked for his Mayweather loss. In his weight class (jr. middle) he had only loss to Shane Mosley, who it was later found to be using PEDs. The first Mosley win was much more impressive but Mayweather was making his debut at a jr. middle catchweight while Shane fought Oscar in his third welterweight fight. While I've never liked him and didn't think he would win, I don't think it's reasonable to say he was shot when he fought Floyd Mayweather. Past his prime, yes but not shot.

Ok. Maybe not shot. But the bottom line is Oscar had been losing more than winning and only managed to shine against a limited Mayorga that had already received a horrible beatdown by Trinidad. Clearly Oscar was on a downward spiral and was there for any young guy like Mayweather to take him. I may be in the minority in this but I don't think the Oscar that Mayweather fought was that much different than the one that Pac fought. I think it's just a matter of styles. I always thought that if Mayweather had stepped to Oscar and just pressed the action especially around the 8th round, that he could have stopped Oscar much in the same way that he probably could have stopped Shane. Personally, I thought it was very unimpressive that Mayweather was not able to defeat De La Hoya in dominating fashion given the circumstances.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Ok. Maybe not shot. But the bottom line is Oscar had been losing more than winning and only managed to shine against a limited Mayorga that had already received a horrible beatdown by Trinidad. Clearly Oscar was on a downward spiral and was there for any young guy like Mayweather to take him. I may be in the minority in this but I don't think the Oscar that Mayweather fought was that much different than the one that Pac fought. I think it's just a matter of styles. I always thought that if Mayweather had stepped to Oscar and just pressed the action especially around the 8th round, that he could have stopped Oscar much in the same way that he probably could have stopped Shane. Personally, I thought it was very unimpressive that Mayweather was not able to defeat De La Hoya in dominating fashion given the circumstances.

He's not a risk taker, never will be. I really think son is mortified of losing that 0 in the loss column, his dad probably did a number on him when he was young and he carries that shit into adulthood, and aside from the zero and his natural skills, what other claims to greatness would he have?
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I gotta disagree Dave. I'm not a huge fan of either guy but Manny's resume and performances in his biggest fights overshadow Floyd's. Just the names alone on Manny's resume are tighter than Floyd's, not by much. Look, none of these guys compare to the fighters of yesteryear, these guys didn't talk a whole bunch of shit to the media and then fought b and c list fighters like Floyd has done since he became p4p, you guys give Floyd too many passes and too many excuses. Manny in my opinion did way more with the decade than Floyd did, Money wasted his prime fighting garbage. No matter the reasons, Floyd wasted his time and more importantly, the fans time with his comp at 140-147. But you guys know I've always given Floyd his props for the DLH fight, but that WAS an old Oscar any way you wanna slice it. Floyd is not a risk taker for whatever reason, because of that he will never attain the label of greatness he feels he deserves. Too many what ifs with Floyd. Great fighters don't leave as many match ups on the table as he has his whole career. Most of the guys he never fought in the divisions he went through were the top guys in their divisions at the time, that is not greatness, fighting and beating those guys is greatness.

The way I look at it in the "Fighter of the Decade" thing is Floyd was the guy for the first half with Hopkins either right behind or right in front of him with Pac nowhere to be found but it would be Pacquiao in the second half with Floyd right behind him.
With the risk taking, I think Oscar did take a lot of good fights with few opponents that he should have fought that he didn't (and a couple that were clear cash-in fights with old guys). But Pacquiao's risk taking is highly overrated. After the loss to Morales and the squeaked draw, the dude didn't exactly rush into risky fights. His fighting JMM the second time was similar to May having to fight Castillo a second time, a must-do fight to straighten his face and his rep. After those two fights, that's when the weight gamesmanship started for him and Roach.

I can't see a fight between the Oscar who fought Trinidad and Floyd going the same way, especially at 154. Oscar was old and unlike the young Oscar, fighting mainly flatfooted, but I agree - not shot.
I feel a bit differently about Oscar though, I give it to him for fighting the guys in his division that the fans wanted him to, has Floyd ever done that? Do you believe that Floyd deserves more props than a guy like Oscar, undefeated but against lesser comp? Floyd is very smart and a great businessman, he knows who to fight and when, to keep his unblemished record.

I don't see Oscar ever beating Floyd Mayweather, even if he was the guy who fought Trinidad. He's often had suspect stamina and he's always been vulnerable to fighters with more speed and/or impeccable defense (Whitaker, Mosely).
If we were making an all time list, Mayweather and possibly Pacquiao go over DLH.

Ok. Maybe not shot. But the bottom line is Oscar had been losing more than winning and only managed to shine against a limited Mayorga that had already received a horrible beatdown by Trinidad. Clearly Oscar was on a downward spiral and was there for any young guy like Mayweather to take him. I may be in the minority in this but I don't think the Oscar that Mayweather fought was that much different than the one that Pac fought. I think it's just a matter of styles. I always thought that if Mayweather had stepped to Oscar and just pressed the action especially around the 8th round, that he could have stopped Oscar much in the same way that he probably could have stopped Shane. Personally, I thought it was very unimpressive that Mayweather was not able to defeat De La Hoya in dominating fashion given the circumstances.

You're in the minority because that doesn't even make sense to say. He wasn't much older for the Pacquiao fight than the Mayweather fight but he was 13 lbs. lighter. Cutting that much weight at his age didn't just make him older or past his prime but completely spent. This makes me very, very curious if Arum and Roach will truly push for another fight with Cotto at jr. middleweight since it's HIGHLY unlikely Steward would let him fight at any catchweight.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

You're in the minority because that doesn't even make sense to say. He wasn't much older for the Pacquiao fight than the Mayweather fight but he was 13 lbs. lighter. Cutting that much weight at his age didn't just make him older or past his prime but completely spent. This makes me very, very curious if Arum and Roach will truly push for another fight with Cotto at jr. middleweight since it's HIGHLY unlikely Steward would let him fight at any catchweight.

Cutting that much weight? Oscar did not cut 13lbs to fight Pac. He fought at 150lbs in the fight right before he fought Pac and in the same y ear. He came in at 145lbs and there is no sign that he was weight drained other than this legend about Roach saying he saw marks on the guy's arms. Oscar has never used the weight drain excuse and before the fight even happened said that he felt so good and that it was so easy for him to make weight that he might go to 140lbs after fighting Pac. Pac beat Oscar because Oscar was past it and Pac had the style, youth, and fighter's mentality to take Oscar out like he was supposed to.

See it in Oscar's own words: “I have been weighing 145lbs now for the last three weeks,” De La Hoya said on Monday, speaking from his training camp at Big Bear, California. “The weight is no problem. I feel strong. I do have to admit in the first couple of days that I did make the weight or tried making weight a month ago, I did feel a little light headed and weak, but now that we got used to it and now that weeks have passed by, we feel strong and fast and very comfortable with welterweight. I’m even thinking of going back down to 140 after this fight so, we’ll see.” Taken from:http://www.secondsout.com/interviews/interviews/de-la-hoya-already-weighs-145lbs
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Cutting that much weight? Oscar did not cut 13lbs to fight Pac. He fought at 150lbs in the fight right before he fought Pac and in the same y ear. He came in at 145lbs and there is no sign that he was weight drained other than this legend about Roach saying he saw marks on the guy's arms. Oscar has never used the weight drain excuse and before the fight even happened said that he felt so good and that it was so easy for him to make weight that he might go to 140lbs after fighting Pac. Pac beat Oscar because Oscar was past it and Pac had the style, youth, and fighter's mentality to take Oscar out like he was supposed to.

Pac beat Oscar because he was the younger, faster fighter adding to Oscar being clearly spent.
He did fight Forbes at 150 (meaning he weighed at least 155-160 fight night) and looked like shit. Forbes had to gain ten pounds and is a feather puncher and Oscar still couldn't put him away. The Oscar that fought Mayorga would murder the one that fought Forbes and Pacquiao. To even suggest Oscar, a guy with questionable stamina to begin with, wasn't spent for the Pacquiao fight defines all evidence suggested by years and years of boxing history.


See it in Oscar's own words: “I have been weighing 145lbs now for the last three weeks,” De La Hoya said on Monday, speaking from his training camp at Big Bear, California. “The weight is no problem. I feel strong. I do have to admit in the first couple of days that I did make the weight or tried making weight a month ago, I did feel a little light headed and weak, but now that we got used to it and now that weeks have passed by, we feel strong and fast and very comfortable with welterweight. I’m even thinking of going back down to 140 after this fight so, we’ll see.” Taken from:http://www.secondsout.com/interviews/interviews/de-la-hoya-already-weighs-145lbs

What was he supposed to say? "I feel like shit. I don't think I made the right decision to come down this far. I'm in big trouble." Yeah, De La Hoya was really going to say anything like that publicly. And yeah, he was really going to go down to 140 (140?). To do what? Fight Tim Bradley. GTFOH.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Pac beat Oscar because he was the younger, faster fighter adding to Oscar being clearly spent.
He did fight Forbes at 150 (meaning he weighed at least 155-160 fight night) and looked like shit. Forbes had to gain ten pounds and is a feather puncher and Oscar still couldn't put him away. The Oscar that fought Mayorga would murder the one that fought Forbes and Pacquiao. To even suggest Oscar, a guy with questionable stamina to begin with, wasn't spent for the Pacquiao fight defines all evidence suggested by years and years of boxing history.




What was he supposed to say? "I feel like shit. I don't think I made the right decision to come down this far. I'm in big trouble." Yeah, De La Hoya was really going to say anything like that publicly. And yeah, he was really going to go down to 140 (140?). To do what? Fight Tim Bradley. GTFOH.

De La Hoya was at 145 for WEEKS before his fight with Pacquiao, a weight that was only 5 pounds less than what he had weighed in his previous fight. Only he knows how he felt and I think he should be held to his words and not granted any weight drain excuse especially if he was on weight and training for several weeks before the fight. Even you said he looked like shit against Forbes. No one says he was weight drained against Forbes. Had Pacquiao fought the same Oscar that Forbes fought the outcome would have been the same. Tim Bradley was a virtual unknown back then so why would Oscar have fought him?
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

De La Hoya was at 145 for WEEKS before his fight with Pacquiao, a weight that was only 5 pounds less than what he had weighed in his previous fight. Only he knows how he felt and I think he should be held to his words and not granted any weight drain excuse especially if he was on weight and training for several weeks before the fight. Even you said he looked like shit against Forbes. No one says he was weight drained against Forbes. Had Pacquiao fought the same Oscar that Forbes fought the outcome would have been the same. Tim Bradley was a virtual unknown back then so why would Oscar have fought him?

Let's not act like 5 pounds is an insignificant amount of weight. Cotto was weakened after having to cut 2 lbs and he's much younger and that's close to his natural fighting weight. In addition, DLH shouldn't use being drained as an excuse because he should have known better than to accept the catch in the first place. To admit that would mean admitting he was a fool. There are no excuses when you get in the ring but there are reasons why one guy wins and another loses.
As long as Pac had to fight an Oscar that was anything less than a full jr. middleweight, that fight was decided from the opening bell. The only advantage Oscar would have had would be his size and strength. Pac would have played into his weakness against faster fighters but it's pretty difficult to say he would have hurt DLH like he did at full strength.
Tim Bradley's a great fighter but he's still a virtual unknown. My point was (pretty clearly, I thought) a sarcastic response at the idea of a late 30 year old Oscar De La Hoya fighting at 140. The fact that he would say that shows the type of carny he is (which isn't a bad thing for a promoter, which he is) but for a grown up to believe him reflect badly on them.
And in your case in particular, you say Oscar doesn't hang his hat on being drained but you've described Shane Mosley as "old" and used that as a reason (excuse?) for why he was dominated by Floyd Mayweather in their recent fight, even though no one thought Shane was too old the day before the fight. Which is it?
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Let's not act like 5 pounds is an insignificant amount of weight. Cotto was weakened after having to cut 2 lbs and he's much younger and that's close to his natural fighting weight. In addition, DLH shouldn't use being drained as an excuse because he should have known better than to accept the catch in the first place. To admit that would mean admitting he was a fool. There are no excuses when you get in the ring but there are reasons why one guy wins and another loses.
As long as Pac had to fight an Oscar that was anything less than a full jr. middleweight, that fight was decided from the opening bell. The only advantage Oscar would have had would be his size and strength. Pac would have played into his weakness against faster fighters but it's pretty difficult to say he would have hurt DLH like he did at full strength.
Tim Bradley's a great fighter but he's still a virtual unknown. My point was (pretty clearly, I thought) a sarcastic response at the idea of a late 30 year old Oscar De La Hoya fighting at 140. The fact that he would say that shows the type of carny he is (which isn't a bad thing for a promoter, which he is) but for a grown up to believe him reflect badly on them.
And in your case in particular, you say Oscar doesn't hang his hat on being drained but you've described Shane Mosley as "old" and used that as a reason (excuse?) for why he was dominated by Floyd Mayweather in their recent fight, even though no one thought Shane was too old the day before the fight. Which is it?

I did, I specifically said so! And I also predicted that Floyd would be hurt by the right hand too. Go back and check my posts.:lol::lol:
But for real, all this shit is a moot point until they(Pac/May) get in the ring.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I did, I specifically said so! And I also predicted that Floyd would be hurt by the right hand too. Go back and check my posts.:lol::lol:
But for real, all this shit is a moot point until they(Pac/May) get in the ring.

When I say "nobody", I have to except you for most of those because, whether we agree or not, you're usually pretty good at prognostication.

It is and I remember just typing how tired I was of talking about these two but Zef sucked me in.

So let me wrap with this. I explained my reasoning and showed my work (like elementary school) on how I came to May over Pac for Fighter of the Decade. But I don't have a vote and Pac was awarded it. Congratulations.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

When I say "nobody", I have to except you for most of those because, whether we agree or not, you're usually pretty good at prognostication.

It is and I remember just typing how tired I was of talking about these two but Zef sucked me in.

So let me wrap with this. I explained my reasoning and showed my work (like elementary school) on how I came to May over Pac for Fighter of the Decade. But I don't have a vote and Pac was awarded it. Congratulations.

Yeah Zef has a tendency to take over threads, especially ones about Colombian MMA fighters and DP's(still can't get over that shit!!).:lol::lol::lol:
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

James is a funny dude!!!

 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Yeah Zef has a tendency to take over threads, especially ones about Colombian MMA fighters and DP's(still can't get over that shit!!).:lol::lol::lol:

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

James is a funny dude!!!



:lol::lol:
Did that chubby really say Nevada was strict on banned substances? They have a piss check after the fight. BALCO laughed at that shit. And then he pulled the Castillo fight out of his ass. Everybody since then, Castillo included, has tried to "pressure" him and gotten beaten badly. That shit doesn't work anymore.
"Freak of nature":lol::lol:
Didn't know all those guys' families came from the same block, though. That's impressive.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Yeah Zef has a tendency to take over threads, especially ones about Colombian MMA fighters and DP's(still can't get over that shit!!).:lol::lol::lol:

Is he gone yet? I was avoiding this thread because he gives me migraines with his fight promoter's opinions! Floyd, unlike popular opinion, has taken more risky fights then Pacman in the last 10 years, Manny just got exposed more! The funny thing about it is, the wars Manny exposed his flaws(in wins, draws, and losses) help give him credibility as a p4p great, while PBF's defensive driven dominance(save Castillo 1, Judah, and DLH) tagged him as a cowardly, underacheiver. This is a coin toss for fighter of the decade in my opinion, and it's all PBF's fault. The time off and fight dodging during Manny's time in the limelight gave him the chance to make himself boxings new darling. Manny's perfectly calculated resume against HOF names all behind their best years and weather-beaten champions along with his tendecy to look like rocky at the end of each fight makes him much more attractive than someone who usually raises his hands after 12 rounds w/o a scratch against similar grade opponents. You have the most dominate fighter of the decade vs. the most exciting and pretty dominate fighter of the decade, the latter will get the nod.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Is he gone yet? I was avoiding this thread because he gives me migraines with his fight promoter's opinions! Floyd, unlike popular opinion, has taken more risky fights then Pacman in the last 10 years, Manny just got exposed more! The funny thing about it is, the wars Manny exposed his flaws(in wins, draws, and losses) help give him credibility as a p4p great, while PBF's defensive driven dominance(save Castillo 1, Judah, and DLH) tagged him as a cowardly, underacheiver. This is a coin toss for fighter of the decade in my opinion, and it's all PBF's fault. The time off and fight dodging during Manny's time in the limelight gave him the chance to make himself boxings new darling. Manny's perfectly calculated resume against HOF names all behind their best years and weather-beaten champions along with his tendecy to look like rocky at the end of each fight makes him much more attractive than someone who usually raises his hands after 12 rounds w/o a scratch against similar grade opponents. You have the most dominate fighter of the decade vs. the most exciting and pretty dominate fighter of the decade, the latter will get the nod.


I can see that.
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

That's the part that kills me!!!WTF?!?:lol::lol::lol::lol:

That shit is going to bother me now. Do rabbits faint when backed into a corner? Discovery Channel fucked up hiring Oprah to do the voice overs for "Life" with James Toney available.:D
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

That shit is going to bother me now. Do rabbits faint when backed into a corner? Discovery Channel fucked up hiring Oprah to do the voice overs for "Life" with James Toney available.:D

:lol::lol::lol::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I've named him Floyd.


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:lol::lol::lol:
 
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Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Damn. 2 to 1. Now I got this image of Floyd hopping backwards while pawing with the left while Manny is darting around hime like the Flash! Then its the second round comes:hmm:
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

Damn. 2 to 1. Now I got this image of Floyd hopping backwards while pawing with the left while Manny is darting around hime like the Flash! Then its the second round comes:hmm:

But do you see him fainting in the second round? That's the big question.
























































:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

I'll give you to 2-1 that Floyd faints somewhere around the 9th or 10th. Roger better pack the smelling salts:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
Re: Did Pacman really deserve fighter of the decade? - good unbiased article*Colin Al

What was going through the interviewer's mind when Toney ask him that? There is no way he saw that answer coming.
 
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