Cosby At It, Again ...

VegasGuy said:
I'd pay for premium seats to see that exchange.

Tell me since you will probably only get to ask questions. If you got up to the mic and got to ask 3 questions, what would they be?

-VG

1. Are you a Christian? :yes:

2. Are you familiar with the parables of the Lost Coin, Lost Sheep, and the Prodigal Son? :smh:

3. Do you still consider yourself a Christian? :confused:


Mind you, I'm the last one to be chastizing someone about Christianity since I haven't been to church in a coon's age, but I will also be the last one throwing stones when I live in a glass house... :dance:
 
QueEx said:
<font size="5"><center>Cosby Criticizes Parents, Teachers</font size></center>

Associated Press
Oct 29, 9:12 PM (ET)


LOS ANGELES (AP) - Bill Cosby, who has ignited controversy in the past with his sometimes scathing rebukes, criticized teachers and parents at a weekend education conference, saying they don't do enough to help kids.

Cosby spoke Saturday at a forum called "Education Is a Civil Right." Hundreds of Los Angeles-area parents, teachers and students attended the event at Maranatha Community Church.

Cosby, 69, was critical of black parents, saying they don't involve themselves enough in their children's education and don't know what their children are doing.

"We've got parents who won't check the bedrooms of their children to see if there's a gun," he said.

He chided teachers for not offering clear explanations to children who ask why courses such as English and algebra are necessary.

"If you teach English and you can't answer this child, then you're in trouble, and we've been in trouble," Cosby said. "We can't answer these children, because nobody's given them any goals."

In the past, Cosby has criticized some black children for not knowing how to read or write, said some had squandered opportunities the civil rights movement gave them and said whites are unfairly blamed for problems in the black community such as teen pregnancy and high dropout rates.


http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20061030/D8L2LVC80.html


People talk against Cosby, but I think he is correct as it comes in this salvo of criticism.



People don't like when Cosby says what he has to say, but I will tell you that Cosby is saying it like it is. Cosby has a unique way of making it look like he is knocking a group of people when he is actually pointing out a way that the group can improve.



Some of the things he says are very harsh. Cosby, however, has to understand that setting goals is one thing, but a large number of black people seldom go for goals that they cannot see before starting. I've seen countless black people say "fuck it" before beginning something simply because they are afraid to screw up in the process.



In addition to pointing out the faults with black youth, I think that Cosby should also make statements about times that he sees people trying to make it. I think he should also add information about times that he steps in and makes a difference for black children who are wavering in their ability to set goals. Not everyone wants to be a comedian when they grow up.



He speaks volumes about how much money he throws at the problem, but he might be interested to know that the money throwing might not be the answer at all. The answer to solving the problem may be as simple as making sure that EVERYONE benefits from the solution.
 
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Jim_Browski said:
1. Are you a Christian? :yes:

2. Are you familiar with the parables of the Lost Coin, Lost Sheep, and the Prodigal Son? :smh:

3. Do you still consider yourself a Christian? :confused:


Mind you, I'm the last one to be chastizing someone about Christianity since I haven't been to church in a coon's age, but I will also be the last one throwing stones when I live in a glass house... :dance:

This is true. Knowing what a car is and how to drive one is two completely different things. I would suggest you bone up on the WORD before you get to the lecture. To go in using fairy tales to make a point might not be the best place to start. In case you were unaware, a parable is a fairy tale.

-VG
 
Vegas Guy said:
I would suggest you bone up on the WORD before you get to the lecture.

"Boning up on the word" is neccessary because...what, to prepare me for diversionary tactics used by a person who cannot answer the questions in good faith?

He wouldn't want to play in the dirt with me in that instance...and neither would any preacher in attendance.



Vegas Guy said:
To go in using fairy tales to make a point might not be the best place to start. In case you were unaware, a parable is a fairy tale.

This is either you showing your ignorance of what the Parables of Jesus Christ means to a Christian, or you showing your lack of inferential acuity when dealing with issues as insignificant as upper and lower case letters. If I said, "I went fishing and only god knows why I didn't catch anything," would you then think I was referring to Poseidon and not a more modern version of the monotheist God for no other reason than the "g" in God was lower-case?
 
Vegas Guy said:
I would suggest you bone up on the WORD before you get to the lecture.

"Boning up on the word" is neccessary because...what, to prepare me for diversionary tactics used by a person who cannot answer the questions in good faith?

He wouldn't want to play in the dirt with me in that instance...and neither would any preacher in attendance.



Vegas Guy said:
To go in using fairy tales to make a point might not be the best place to start. In case you were unaware, a parable is a fairy tale.

This is either you showing your ignorance of what the Parables of Jesus Christ means to a Christian, or you showing your lack of inferential acuity when dealing with issues as insignificant as upper and lower case letters. If I said, "I went fishing and only god knows why I didn't catch anything," would you then think I was referring to Poseidon and not a more modern version of the monotheist God for no other reason than the "g" in God was lower-case?
 
GET YOU HOT said:
I totally agree with this point...



The fact that Cosby has a pair and is willing to put himself up to take it from all angles, is admirable. No one is saying he is 100% right!

People don't realize, that we need the knowledge & first accounts of experiences of these "leaders" who experienced the struggle for rights first hand. Stop taking them for granted. We need to listen now... :hmm:


Cosby was never a "race man" when the -ish hit the fan during the Civil Rights Movement.... :smh:
 
Jim_Browski said:
Cosby was never a "race man" when the -ish hit the fan during the Civil Rights Movement.... :smh:

I don't understand your statement. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by a "race Man"

May-hap you would be so kind as to elucidate?

In your opinion what is a “race man”?
 
QueEx said:
You may be right with respect to Cosby's delivery. Of course, no one delivery/presentation reaches all. I do believe, however, that he is genuine. Maybe he is just trying to "Shock" the community's conscious? I think he should consider varying his approach as the message is an important one and needs the widest appreciation possible in our community.

QueEx

Wow.........

I can't believe I lived to see this day!!!!!!!!!!

So you finally came around........

:yes:
 
kayanation said:
Wow.........

I can't believe I lived to see this day!!!!!!!!!!

So you finally came around........

:yes:
I came around? LOL. Go figure.

On the other hand, did my views change or
do you now understand them better ???

Sometimes, people, in the heat of argument of
their passionate beliefs, overlook the essence
of the argument.

Peace,

QueEx
 
Jimbro,

You disappointed me ... or maybe I expected too much.

In your limited 3 questions in Jersey, I expected you to adduce questions to turn Cosby's "truth" on its head, or, at least, to use the 3 questions to tightly begin the process of unraveling of Cosby's "truth." Instead, you headed straight for the man's character. Of course, character assasination is as old as the hills and as new as the next election campaign. Attacking character may blur the truth or deflect the listeners attention from the truth, but rarely does it deal with the underlying truth, and your 3 questions failed likewise.

A very bad person can tell the very hard cold truth. A person can bring out that he is an axe murderer and shouldn't be trusted. But that doesn't destroy the truth: that he is about to cut your fukkin head off.

QueEx
 
QueEx said:
Jimbro,

You disappointed me ... or maybe I expected too much.

In your limited 3 questions in Jersey, I expected you to adduce questions to turn Cosby's "truth" on its head, or, at least, to use the 3 questions to tightly begin the process of unraveling of Cosby's "truth." Instead, you headed straight for the man's character. Of course, character assasination is as old as the hills and as new as the next election campaign. Attacking character may blur the truth or deflect the listeners attention from the truth, but rarely does it deal with the underlying truth, and your 3 questions failed likewise.

A very bad person can tell the very hard cold truth. A person can bring out that he is an axe murderer and shouldn't be trusted. But that doesn't destroy the truth: that he is about to cut your fukkin head off.

QueEx

I was expecting well thought out questions of where the Coz might be wrong in his assessment or approach or something. But not an attempt to libel him simply because he disagrees with the mans approach. Based on the forum Coz is speaking in, I don't know how those questions teaches or informs anyone of anything.

-VG
 
QueEx said:
Jimbro,

You disappointed me ... or maybe I expected too much.

I disappointed you???

And you are...?

As far as your expectations, I wouldn't expect you, a lawyer, to have any idea of the meaning of the Parables and possible application of them.


QueEx said:
In your limited 3 questions in Jersey, I expected you to adduce questions to turn Cosby's "truth" on its head, or, at least, to use the 3 questions to tightly begin the process of unraveling of Cosby's "truth."

You are the board moderator...take the time out to find the first Cosby discussions where I turned his "truths" on their head. It didn't matter one bit that I refuted each and every stereotype he presented because l those who thought/thinks as he does would only fall back on Cosby telling the "truth"...as if the truth isn't a relative term. As a lawyer, I would imagine you, of all people, would know that there can be a lie in the truth and also the truth in a lie.

QueEx said:
Instead, you headed straight for the man's character. Of course, character assasination is as old as the hills and as new as the next election campaign.


If I had attacked his character, you would have read quotes such as, "Cosby is a White woman drugging, White woman raping, cheating on his wife self-hating sell-out." You didn't hear me do that because you have your definitions mixed up...once again. It's a typical defense mechanism employed by like-minded individuals when presented with questions that call your INTEGRITY on the carpet.

QueEx said:
Attacking character may blur the truth or deflect the listeners attention from the truth, but rarely does it deal with the underlying truth, and your 3 questions failed likewise.



For once you are correct. My three questions didn't attack his character because they weren't created for that purpose. My questions did indeed deal with the underlying "truth", in this instance Cosby's integrity, or lack there of, in attacking segments of Black society that obviously doesn't have a spokesperson to defend it, as if they are what ails Black society.

See how the truth is such a relative term. You expected me to show you, ONCE AGAIN, that the same Black children that Cosby directs his attacks are the same ones graduating from high school and attending college at the highest rate ever in recorded Black history...and I will, to make a point:

The percentage of non-Hispanic whites (89 percent) and blacks (80 percent) who had a high school diploma or higher marked new highs. The proportion of blacks rose by 10 percentage points from 1993 to 2003, while non-Hispanic whites saw an increase of 5 percentage points in this category.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/001863.html

You also expected me to show you, ONCE AGAIN, that teen pregnancy in Black America is at the lowest rate in recorded Black history, and I will, to prove a point:

The teen birth rate has declined slowly but steadily from 1991 to 2005 with a decline of 35 percent for those aged 15 to 19. These recent declines reverse the 23-percent rise in the teenage birth rate from 1986 to 1991. The largest decline since 1991 by race was for black women.
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/data/genlfact.asp

The point is that I just presented you, ONCE AGAIN with facts...cold hard ones, that fly in the face of what Cosby is trying to present as who's not "holding up their end of the bargain" as he put it.

Blacks are last in the race because our middle and upper classes are so low class that THEY cannot compete with their peer group.

It's like the bully who is losing a fight and, out of the blue, decides to smack the quietest kid on the playground.



QueEx said:
A very bad person can tell the very hard cold truth.


But the truth will be as he understands it, hich may not be the truth to the next man....

Ask a Muslim if the way to God is through Jesus Christ....

Afterwards, ask a Christian if Mohammed was Gods last prophet....



QueEx said:
A person can bring out that he is an axe murderer and shouldn't be trusted. But that doesn't destroy the truth: that he is about to cut your fukkin head off.


Poor analogy on your part....

The axe-murderer can cut off all the heads he wants to, as long as he doesn't try to be the authority on trading on EBay....
 
Blkvoz said:
I don't understand your statement. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by a "race Man"

That may very well be the case....

Blkvoz said:
May-hap you would be so kind as to elucidate?

No problem....

Blkvoz said:
In your opinion what is a “race man”?

A "race man", in the vein I used the term, is one who made, makes, and will make considerable, tangible change in his race...in the face of adverse conditions (such as the loss of life, limb, income).

Examples:

Black Panthers
Malcolm X
Louis Farrakhan
NOI
Dr. MLK Jr. (my least favorite)
Jim Brown
 
Originally posted by Jim_Browski

A "race man", in the vein I used the term, is one who made, makes, and will make considerable, tangible change in his race...in the face of adverse conditions (such as the loss of life, limb, income).

Examples:

Black Panthers
Malcolm X
Louis Farrakhan
NOI
Dr. MLK Jr. (my least favorite)
Jim Brown


Cosby experienced the loss of his son, at the hands of some russian gangsta boys. Perhaps, there is more to the story and he carries a sense of responsibility, failure, a need to throw himself in front of a train, a sacrificial type desire to shout out at "african americans", right his wrongs. A need to "father" the millions of bastard black babies. To cause those who need that guidance and spark of anger in them to think and to rectify their wrongs and do right, spreading the desire to change...
 
Jim_Browski said:
I disappointed you???

And you are...?

Just someone who was interested in a good response to the question. You think courtesies are bad thing ???

Jim Browski said:
As far as your expectations, I wouldn't expect you, a lawyer, to have any idea of the meaning of the Parables and possible application of them.
Jim Browski said:
Now you want to attack my character! You seem to that as a matter of course, without thinking.


Jim Browski said:
You are the board moderator...take the time out to find the first Cosby discussions where I turned his "truths" on their head. It didn't matter one bit that I refuted each and every stereotype he presented because l those who thought/thinks as he does would only fall back on Cosby telling the "truth"...as if the truth isn't a relative term. As a lawyer, I would imagine you, of all people, would know that there can be a lie in the truth and also the truth in a lie.
First, I looked for your "refutation" but didn't find it. If you know where it is, cite it.

Secondly, If you had refuted Cosby's assertions I would be the first to tell you good job. Moreover, that refutation would have been a good starting point for your hypothetical questions to Cosby. But you didn't start with that, did you? You began with attacking character.

Jim Browski said:
If I had attacked his character, you would have read quotes such as, "Cosby is a White woman drugging, White woman raping, cheating on his wife self-hating sell-out." You didn't hear me do that because you have your definitions mixed up...once again.

When you discuss the attributes or features concerning a persons reputation, conduct or a persons moral nature, you're discussing a persons character. Hence, you're questioning Cosby's Christianity related, directly, to his character.

Jim Broski said:
It's a typical defense mechanism employed by like-minded individuals when presented with <u>questions that call your INTEGRITY</u> on the carpet.
See what I mean. Now you want to attack my character. In a civil discussion, try sticking to the facts.

Jim Broski said:
For once you are correct. My three questions didn't attack his character because they weren't created for that purpose. My questions did indeed deal with the underlying "truth", in this instance Cosby's integrity, or lack there of, in attacking segments of Black society that obviously doesn't have a spokesperson to defend it, as if they are what ails Black society.
Despite the fact that you actually admitted that you went for Cosby's character (his lack of integrity); it seems to be that the portion of society that you mention does in fact have spokesmen: Dyson, you and those who make the same arguments as you, no?

Jim Broski said:
See how the truth is such a relative term. You expected me to show you, ONCE AGAIN, that the same Black children that Cosby directs his attacks are the same ones graduating from high school and attending college at the highest rate ever in recorded Black history...and I will, to make a point:

The percentage of non-Hispanic whites (89 percent) and blacks (80 percent) who had a high school diploma or higher marked new highs. The proportion of blacks rose by 10 percentage points from 1993 to 2003, while non-Hispanic whites saw an increase of 5 percentage points in this category.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/001863.html

You also expected me to show you, ONCE AGAIN, that teen pregnancy in Black America is at the lowest rate in recorded Black history, and I will, to prove a point:

The teen birth rate has declined slowly but steadily from 1991 to 2005 with a decline of 35 percent for those aged 15 to 19. These recent declines reverse the 23-percent rise in the teenage birth rate from 1986 to 1991. The largest decline since 1991 by race was for black women.
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/data/genlfact.asp

The point is that I just presented you, ONCE AGAIN with facts...cold hard ones, that fly in the face of what Cosby is trying to present as who's not "holding up their end of the bargain" as he put it.

Thank you Brother. I am as proud as you might be to see this improvement. Seriously. And, if these stats hold up <u>against the same people Cosby is talking about</u>, I am elated and that son-of-B is just plain wrong.

Do they hold up ???

The stats relate to "ALL" Black improvement and don't breakdown that improvement against the various substrata of our community, i.e., by socio-economic groupings. I can't tell from these stats that they specifically relate at the same rate of improvement among, as you put it, "the same Black children that Cosby directs his attacks." I went to the links you provided, but I couldn't tell. Still, improvement is improvement.

The education report was basically a Poll: they selected households to call on to ask about education attainment levels. The Poll omitted completely what they call the "Institutionalized" ... including those where the would-be students or their head of household's are Incarcerated. What effect would not counting those have on the survey? I hope those aren't part of "the same Black children [and parents] that Cosby directs his attacks.?

The education survey/poll also mentioned, I believe in one of the addenda, that the nonresponse rate was 15% and those who refused to answer their questions tended to be low income persons. I hope those aren't part of "the same Black children [and parents] that Cosby directs his attacks.?

Jim Broski said:
Blacks are last in the race because our middle and upper classes are so low class that THEY cannot compete with their peer group.
All I can say about a blanket statement like that is: its a true sign of a self-hater. You've got issues against Brothers you don't know and have no personal knowledge of what they do or stand for in our community. Its class-hate against your own.


QueEx


P.S.

(1) Good job on the stats. I can appreciate a Brother responding with facts.

(2) Is your problem with Cosby attacking a defenseless group of our own; or do you honestly believe that the group he complains of simply does not exist ???


`
 
as an ex-social work who worked with school aged children, i can say that cosby is on point. the truth of the matter is alot black parents dont value education. i've had parents tell me to my face that they are not responsible for how their child act or performs in school. its sad but i'd venture to say that 90% of the parents at the schools i worked at never stepped foot in the school outside of registering their child, picking the kid up when they were suspended or coming up to the school to curse out a school administrator. this is a problem that needs to be address and not tucked under the rug for sake saving face with white folk. i think i'm starting to agree with the cat who wrote the editoral a couple weeks ago on black people v. ******s. its time for us to stop making excuses for people and start giving them tough love by calling them out.
 
Great insight, i couldn't agree more, as a mother of 2, i see this all the time with my sons' friends. Parents lack of interest participation in their childern's lives. I plan on home schooling the baby because I think some teachers have lost interest in teaching, coaches have lost heart... :smh:
 
QueEx said:
When you discuss the attributes or features concerning a persons reputation, conduct or a persons moral nature, you're discussing a persons character. Hence, you're questioning Cosby's Christianity related, directly, to his character.

Nope....

You were fine until you added a person's moral nature....

Your character is who you are, and as far as most of the world is concerned he as America's Dad...Mr. Cosby show...G-rated comic genious...some might say a womanizer.

Your integrity is when your morals kick in. Will you do the right thing everytime...as you understand it to be right (hence, the questioning of his religious beliefs)?

Will you bear false witness? Will you covet another man's possesions? You know, Golden Rule type stuff....



QueEx said:
Despite the fact that you actually admitted that you went for Cosby's character (his lack of integrity); it seems to be that the portion of society that you mention does in fact have spokesmen: Dyson, you and those who make the same arguments as you, no?

Funny you should mention Dyson because no matter how many times he has refuted Cosby the number of Black people who rail against him for doing so are LEGION (for lack of a better word). What is even more striking is how Cosby will not, under any conditions, debate Dyson on these "truths"....

I wonder why?



QueEx said:
Thank you Brother. I am as proud as you might be to see this improvement. Seriously. And, if these stats hold up <u>against the same people Cosby is talking about</u>, I am elated and that son-of-B is just plain wrong.

Do they hold up ???

"Almost 88 percent of African Americans lived in metropolitan areas in 2000."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American#Demographics

QueEx said:
The stats relate to "ALL" Black improvement and don't breakdown that improvement against the various substrata of our community, i.e., by socio-economic groupings. I can't tell from these stats that they specifically relate at the same rate of improvement among, as you put it, "the same Black children that Cosby directs his attacks." I went to the links you provided, but I couldn't tell. Still, improvement is improvement.


Again look at the facts and tell me, in good faith, that the 12% of African-Americans that don't live in metropolitan areas are responsible for ALL of this growth.

This would mean that out of the roughly 4 million Black people that don't live in metropolitan areas, their children constitute ALL of the high school graduations and ALL of the college graduations in the past 10 years. :smh:



QueEx said:
All I can say about a blanket statement like that is: its a true sign of a self-hater. You've got issues against Brothers you don't know and have no personal knowledge of what they do or stand for in our community. Its class-hate against your own.

Unlike Cosby's rant, mine can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I couldn't find the stats I needed on the Census website, but I found a website that will suffice. Take note of the slides on the right side that don't even include Asians:


http://www.welfareacademy.org/pubs/poverty/2005.0715.testimony/


QueEx said:
(1) Good job on the stats. I can appreciate a Brother responding with facts.

As a lawyer, I thought you would. <---compliment

QueEx said:
(2) Is your problem with Cosby attacking a defenseless group of our own; or do you honestly believe that the group he complains of simply does not exist ???

A combination of both.

On one hand, you have many people out here saying, "Hey, I take care of my kids...could he be referring to me?"

On the other hand, the group he complains of isn't as large as he makes them, nor do they create problems of the magnitude he tries to make it seem.
 
GET YOU HOT said:
A need to "father" the millions of bastard black babies. To cause those who need that guidance and spark of anger in them to think and to rectify their wrongs and do right, spreading the desire to change...

If he wanted to "father" the millions of bastard Black babies he would spend $25 million dollars to improve schools in the inner city instead of creating a tax write-off by donating that money to an institution(s) that create the supposed "cream of the crop" of Black America who will, more than likely, make it without his tax-break....

This is why I made mention of the Parable of the Prodigal Son....

Does one care for the sick, or the healthy?
 
NAWDOG said:
as an ex-social work who worked with school aged children, i can say that cosby is on point.

And as a fifth grade teacher in the inner city I can say that Cosby is only partially correct.


NAWDOG said:
the truth of the matter is alot black parents dont value education.

The truth of the matter is that is a gross generalization. The other truth is that these parents don't, haven't, will not in their lifetimes have anything even remote to a person(s) modeling proper behavior in their community.

NAWDOG said:
i've had parents tell me to my face that they are not responsible for how their child act or performs in school.

That parent is incorrect, at the same time you cannot tell me that you haven't had parents come to school and check their kids....

NAWDOG said:
its sad but i'd venture to say that 90% of the parents at the schools i worked at never stepped foot in the school outside of registering their child, picking the kid up when they were suspended or coming up to the school to curse out a school administrator.

I'd like to know the school district in which you worked so I can research your claims....

NAWDOG said:
this is a problem that needs to be address and not tucked under the rug for sake saving face with white folk.

In case you have never gotten a haircut, been to church on Sunday, spoken with an old-head from the good old days...these problems have BEEN addressed since they have been in existence.

Have they been dealt with?

No....

Who is left in the Black community that is competent enough to deal with these problems?

Anyone with the knowledge to improve the community either chooses to live in their own little "enclaves", or as close to White people as humanly possible AKA as far way from ni66ers as humanly possible....

Yet you(pl) complain that these people don't/won't/can't do XYZ



NAWDOG said:
i think i'm starting to agree with the cat who wrote the editoral a couple weeks ago on black people v. ******s. its time for us to stop making excuses for people and start giving them tough love by calling them out.

And I will call the self-haters out who choose to do so without any effort to better the situation....
 
I read the Douglas J. Besharov testimonial and the accompanying slides. What is your point ???

QueEx
 
The truth of the matter is that is a gross generalization. The other truth is that these parents don't, haven't, will not in their lifetimes have anything even remote to a person(s) modeling proper behavior in their community.

I understand your point, but at what point do we start holding parent's accountable for their inaction and bad decisions. Now granted, alot of black parent's upbringing was not ideal, but this is not and should not be an excuse for them to shierk on thier child's upbringing. When you chose to have a child, you accept the responsiblity of raising that child and this responsiblity isn't qualified or conditional. To have otherwise would only create a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and ignorance. Kind of like what we have now.


That parent is incorrect, at the same time you cannot tell me that you haven't had parents come to school and check their kids....

Real talk man....far and few in between. Like I said maybe about 10% of the parent's do this. Our parent's are not involved to the degree that necessary to ensure their child's success.


I'd like to know the school district in which you worked so I can research your claims....

I worked in Philadelphia.

Anyone with the knowledge to improve the community either chooses to live in their own little "enclaves", or as close to White people as humanly possible AKA as far way from ni66ers as humanly possible....

So should I live in communities where I'll have no home appreciation and where the school system is so shitty that I'll end up spending all of my extra dough on private schools for my kids? We have to give up this mentality that inorder for folks to be effective they have to live in the hood. Its unnatural. You should read the book "A History of American Cities." The natural trajectory for every racial group in this country has been for folks to start off living in the city and then as they build wealth to move out to the outer rings of the city (i.e. areas that are reprensentative of thier socio-economic status). This isn't bad man its progress.
 
QueEx said:
I read the Douglas J. Besharov testimonial and the accompanying slides. What is your point ???

QueEx


All segments of Black America are woefully underperforming which translates into all not "holding up their end of the bargain"....

Seeing as how the middle class is the backbone of any capitalist society I would have to say that, in respect to our perpetual last place finishes, either we don't know what it is to be middle class, or we don't now what it means to be capitalists....

I choose the latter, and I especially don't want to point a finger at the people in the projects to say they are the reason our middle class is traditionally ranked last in their peer group when the goal of every kneegrow is to go to college and get away from the "hood", while the same Latino...Asian...Italian goes to college to learn how to CAPITALIZE uopn those left to be capitalized upon.

Look at the inner city businesses....

Who owns them?

Other ethnic group's middle classes who might not be middle class in their own competitive backyard, but look like stars with no competition from their Black peer group....

 
I should have been clearer; I should have asked which part of the testimonial that you were relying upon for which of your propositions. My apology. I wanted that so that we could try to stay on point with specifics. Moreover, I didn't quite get what you seem to be getting from the testimonial -- in fact, I got something different. I will come back to it later, busy right now. In the meantime (if you get the time) how about letting me know which specific parts of the report are you relying to support which of your arguments.

Peace,

QueEx
 
Jim_Browski said:
If he wanted to "father" the millions of bastard Black babies he would spend $25 million dollars to improve schools in the inner city instead of creating a tax write-off by donating that money to an institution(s) that create the supposed "cream of the crop" of Black America who will, more than likely, make it without his tax-break....

This is why I made mention of the Parable of the Prodigal Son....

Does one care for the sick, or the healthy?


Would that same $25 million dollars not be a tax write off for him also if donated to inner city schools? The ideal is this up your game, study hard and work smart, reinforce morals and values at home. Build up your childs armor against society's ills. They will come out on top, because the cream always rises to the top, this doest mean the rest cannot mix it up in the pot...


Cosby is going to support those who fit into his ideology. It is somewhere along the lines of survival of the fittest, the ones most likely to adapt and reproduce are the ones that will survive. In that, they become integrated and support survival within their kind... :hmm:
 
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Jim_Browski said:


Blacks are last in the race because our middle and upper classes are so low class that THEY cannot compete with their peer group.


<font size="5"><center>Well-Being of Black Middle Class
Affected by Ties to Poor Siblings</font size></center>


Media Newswire
Released on 2006-11-22

EVANSTON, Ill. --- Sibling ties that cross the socioeconomic divide significantly affect the stability and well-being of black middle-class Americans. That is according to a new Northwestern University study that further illustrates the fragility of the black middle class.

(Media-Newswire.com) - Blacks teetering at the lower end of the middle-class spectrum are two and a half times as likely to have a low-income sibling as whites in the same socioeconomic bracket, the study shows. They also are four times as likely to have been poor when they were young, suggesting the relatively recent rise of many blacks to middle-class status.

"Basically the study shows that blacks in the lower middle class are much less likely to have kin to call on when an occasion arises in which they need, say, quick cash for a hospital bill or to fix a car", says Northwestern's Mary Pattillo, chair and professor of sociology at the Weinberg College of Arts and Sciences and co-investigator of the study. "And they are much more likely to have kin calling upon them for financial and other assistance."

The study, "Poverty in the Family: Race, Siblings and Socioeconomic Heterogenity", by Pattillo and Colleen Heflin, University of Kentucky, will be published in the December issue of Social Science Research.

The research is among the latest of Pattillo's studies showing that fragility is embedded in the networks of middle-class blacks. Her earlier research shows that middle-class blacks are more likely than their white counterparts to come from poor families and to be affected by the economic, social and political influences of living near poor neighborhoods.

The new study locates individual attainment within the context of the extended family, suggesting an unrecognized layer of inequality by race that helps explain the literature showing the economic discrepancies between black and white Americans and the higher risk of downward mobility for African Americans.

"Adding family level disparities to documented income, occupational, residential and wealth inequalities for African Americans illustrates the continuing importance of race across the class spectrum", Pattillo says.

The study emphasizes group-based disadvantage, rather than individual difference, arguing that poverty and middle-class status are located within different family contexts for black and white individuals.

"Studies that focus solely on the individual will tend to underestimate the extent of racial stratification in our society by missing the cross-class connections that characterize groups", says Pattillo.

Blacks' tenuous hold on middle-class status also is greatly influenced by the relatively short socioeconomic distance between middle-class and poor blacks as compared to whites. "Blacks don't have to go as far as whites to fall on the other side of the class line", Pattillo says.

The study also addresses the social isolation literature that suggests that inner-city residents are deprived of the mainstream social networks whose resources facilitate social and economic advancement in modern society.

Compared to whites, Pattillo and Heflin found, poor blacks are more socially isolated. But poor blacks' social isolation does not eliminate middle-class blacks from their family networks. In other words, the study disputes academic references to black-middle class disconnection and resulting snobbery.

"The fact that half of poor blacks have a sibling on the other side of the class divide poses some challenges to the social isolation literature that depicts poor blacks as separated from the mainstream", the study concludes. "Indeed, the black mainstream is more likely to remain tied to poor blacks than is the comparable white population."

http://media-newswire.com/release_1039616.html
 
cosby is tryin harder than most of the other supposed black leaders by attackin alot of stero typical problems of black people but he doesnt offer any causes or real solutions.
and the people who need to hear this the most will probably just get defensive and not listen
 
This study is a defense of self-hate....

The bottom line is that our middle class doesn't hold up against any other ethnic group's middle to upper middle class....

There is no real explanation or excuse why the Black middle class, the backbone of any society, is dead last because if we accept this study/explanation/excuse then why is it so difficult to understand the effects of poverty on the lower classes?

One doesn't fail at being middle class because his Uncle Ray-Ray doesn't have the money to loan him to get his car fixed. One fails at being middle class because he didn't take care of his/her business...as society demands (High school--college--career---marriage). If one has these mechanisms in order and is still a failure then there is something wrong with them. For the author to suggest that our middle class is usually first generation is a non-point because it's not as if they were looking toward successful Black people as mentors in the first place. The Black middle class went to college to become Donald Trump...not Bill Cosby.
 
Jim_Browski said:


This study is a defense of self-hate....

It may be a defense of self hate. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Give us some facts, not just your self indulgent opinion.

The bottom line is that our middle class doesn't hold up against any other ethnic group's middle to upper middle class....


Same point you made, unsuccessfully, above. If you can't clearly and unequivocally demostrate that point, maybe you're the self-hater.

There is no real explanation or excuse why the Black middle class, the backbone of any society, is dead last because if we accept this study/explanation/excuse then why is it so difficult to understand the effects of poverty on the lower classes?

Did the study say the Black middle class is dead last? I may have missed that, if so, I apologize. Please point out where in the study is that finding. If its not in the Patillo-Heflin study, where did you get that from?

One doesn't fail at being middle class because his Uncle Ray-Ray doesn't have the money to loan him to get his car fixed. One fails at being middle class because he didn't take care of his/her business...as society demands (High school--college--career---marriage). If one has these mechanisms in order and is still a failure then there is something wrong with them. For the author to suggest that our middle class is usually first generation is a non-point because it's not as if they were looking toward successful Black people as mentors in the first place. The Black middle class went to college to become Donald Trump...not Bill Cosby.

Read it again. I think the study cited those at the "lower end" of the middle class.

If you didn't know, some sociologist divide the middle into lower-middle and upper middle. I don't really care that much for labels, but those sub-levels in the middle have been defined, thusly:
Lower middle class, (ca. 33%) individuals who worked their way through college and commonly have a Bachelor's degree or some college education. School teachers, sales-employees and lower to mid level supervisors rank among those in this particular group. Household income is general in the range of $30,000 to $75,000. Workers in this group are mostly white collar but have less autonomy in their work than do upper middle class professionals. Members of this class often attempt to emulate those in the two higher classes and have recently become overly indebted by their desire to have a comfortable lifestyle.

Upper middle class, (ca. 15%) white collar professionals with advanced post-secondary education such as physicians, professors, lawyers, corporate executives, and other management. While households commonly have six figure incomes in this group, some one income earner households and lesser paid professionals may not. While, high educational attainment commonly serves as staple mark of this group, entrepreneurs and business owners may also be upper middle class even if lacking advanced educational attainment.​

By the way, I didn't post the study for the truth of the matters therein asserted. I posted it as food for thought and to be critiqued - turned on its head, as the conclusions warrant.

QueEx
 
QueEx said:
It may be a defense of self hate. How do you arrive at that conclusion? Give us some facts, not just your self indulgent opinion.

I've given facts when I've spoken on the self-hater named Bill Cosby. Am I going to do so again?

Maybe, but only because it serves my purpose.... :yes:



QueEx said:
Same point you made, unsuccessfully, above. If you can't clearly and unequivocally demostrate that point, maybe you're the self-hater.

You claim that I've unsuccessfully made the point that the Black middle class is in last place in "The Race" and, as always, I disagree with you and your consistent, constant defense of self-hate.

For your perusal: :dance:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States#Race
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeownership_in_the_United_States
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/cenbr01-7.pdf
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/cenbr01-5.pdf
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/cenbr01-4.pdf
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/cenbr01-8.pdf


QueEx said:
Did the study say the Black middle class is dead last? I may have missed that, if so, I apologize. Please point out where in the study is that finding. If its not in the Patillo-Heflin study, where did you get that from?

The study didn't have to say the Black middle class was dead last...I told you, erroneously, because American Indians are actually lower than us...if you don't consider the casinos they own. :cool:


QueEx said:
Read it again. I think the study cited those at the "lower end" of the middle class.

I read the study and just so happen to be a tad bit above the standards for lower middle class and I can tell you truthfully that even when I was knee-deep in the lower middle class...A relative asking me for a loan to help fix their car wasn't going to send me to the rescue mission for a bed and breakfast. :smh:
 
Blacks must drop victimhood and reclaim dignity​

African Americans can succeed despite the forces of poverty
and systemic racism. But first we must shed
the mind-set of victimhood.


YCOSBYPOUSSAINT_P1.jpg

Alvin Poussaint

Christian Science Monitor
By Bill Cosby and Alvin F. Poussaint
from the November 8, 2007 edition

New York and Boston - Martin Luther King had a dream that some day his children would "live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

He wanted his children to become strong, beautiful people. But what we see today in poor African American neighborhoods is a nightmare.

We know there are forces that make the ability to escape poverty seem bleak: overburdened single-parent homes, a high dropout rate, joblessness, gangs, drugs, crime, incarceration, deaths at an early age from guns fired by angry black men. We know that systemic racism and governmental neglect still exist.

Yet we in the black community must look at ourselves and understand our own responsibility. We sometimes inflict ourselves with a victim mentality, feel hopeless, and do self-destructive things that make our lives even worse. Many people who are trying to make it find themselves struggling against fellow African Americans so lost in self-destructive behaviors that they bring down other people as well as themselves.

These forces are decimating our communities. And they are not what Reverend King and other leaders took those whuppings for. This is not the future for which our ancestors escaped slavery or resisted it. None of our forebears sacrificed their lives so that their children's children could call each other "******."

Time to overcome

We cannot accept this current state of affairs. We must realize – and believe – that, for all the external hassles we face, we are not helpless. We can overcome the odds and succeed in spite of the obstacles. And we must try. Despite the fact that racial discrimination has not been eliminated, black strength lies in the resolve to keep on keeping on, never quit, never give up, never yield to the role of cooperative victim.

Since the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision to end school segregation, black people have achieved extraordinary accomplishments on all fronts that seemed unthinkable 50 years ago.

As black people face the future, we must remember our successes in American society.

One way slaves survived brutal conditions was to turn the Christianity they had learned into a liberation theology. The stories of the Hebrew slaves became their own. Even as slave owners used the Bible to justify slavery, black people used the Bible as God intended – to give people hope for a time when there would be true justice.

For black people to hold their heads high even today means getting rid of internal feelings of inferiority.

A history of obstacles

This can be difficult given that white supremacists had real clout in this nation for nearly 250 years.

Take, for example, the very definition of a "black" person in America. Historically, a person with any known black ancestry was defined as black, making African ancestry a taint on white purity.

The way race is defined in the United States makes no biological or genetic sense. It's been used primarily as a tool for political and psychological oppression – providing economic gain for many white people.

The Emancipation Proclamation, written in 1863 during the Civil War, finally freed slaves in the South from bondage. After slavery, there was a short-lived period of "Reconstruction" in the South when black people started businesses, bought property, voted, and even served in Congress.

But old habits die hard, especially racist ones. When Northerners wearied of Reconstruction, the old South reared its head and imposed "Jim Crow" segregation.

Buying into victimhood

Although few acknowledge it, the doctrine of white supremacy has sunk deeply into the minds of too many Americans, black people included. It has slithered its way into the psyches of poor black youth with low self-esteem, who equate academic success with "acting white." If success is "white," then are they saying that to "act black" is to fail?

We wonder how these embedded stereotypes affect black people today. Are we too dependent? Do we rely too much on white people or "the system" to rescue us? Do we lack faith in our own ability to run things? Has the legacy of slavery affected even our current mental state?

Too many people, including some black people, believe many poor black youth – particularly males – cannot be educated. This position harkens back to the notion of poor genes determining poor performance rather than poor environment, poor schools, or a music scene that imparts destructive, degrading values. The good must be separated from the bad while treating black people with respect and not demeaning an entire culture.

Victors through community, family

When restaurants, laundries, hotels, theaters, groceries, and clothing stores were legally segregated, black people opened and ran their own.

Such successes provided jobs and strength to black economic well-being. They also gave black people that gratifying sense of an interdependent community with people working to help each other.

During legal segregation, white racists destroyed some of these economically independent communities. To their credit, our ancestors did not accept victimhood. They fought back as individuals and as a people. Most refused to become passive victims of the system.

Black neighborhoods today must adopt that same can-do attitude and take action. They must be enterprising and work hard to improve their own economic situation – and by so doing, help improve the community.

This tenacious drive to be victorious is a quality that will help us meet the current challenges in our neighborhoods.

We can pass this sense of strength on to our children by strengthening black families, whatever their structure, and nurturing our youth with love and guidance. We must put children first and sharpen our parenting skills in both single-parent and two-parent homes. Fathers must play a bigger role. They cannot be absent. Children do better when fathers are actively involved in their lives.

With the help of supportive social policies, we can shoulder the remaining challenges and overcome the barriers to black success.

The driving force for change has been the activism of African Americans and others who take up our cause. The key word is activism, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. We must be actively involved in empowering our schools and participating in the political process by exercising our right to vote. Being passive takes us nowhere. Activism is what gets us where we want to go.

It is time to think positively and act positively. A people armed with the will to want to get better, armed with the will to win, and armed with knowledge of the past and present, can move forward and take action, succeed, and reclaim their dignity.

• Bill Cosby is a longtime entertainer. Alvin F. Poussaint is the director of the Media Center of the Judge Baker Children's Center in Boston and a professor of psychiatry and the faculty associate dean for student affairs at Harvard Medical School. They recently wrote the book, "Come on, People: On the Path from Victims to Victors."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1108/p09s01-coop.html
 
Cosby has good intentions, but horrible tactics. I dont care what your goal is..you can not expect to achieve it by humiliating the person or group that you are trying to influence. You can still be real and direct, but you have to be a bit more compassionate simultaneously.
Amen to that!! :yes:
 
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