Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that you do

Makkonnen

The Quizatz Haderach
BGOL Investor
The FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year, according to government sources, a hundredfold increase over historic norms. The letters -- one of which can be used to sweep up the records of many people -- are extending the bureau's reach as never before into the telephone calls, correspondence and financial lives of ordinary Americans.


In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed. Late last month, President Bush signed Executive Order 13388, expanding access to those files for "state, local and tribal" governments and for "appropriate private sector entities," which are not defined.

In the executive branch, no FBI or Justice Department official audits the use of national security letters to assess whether they are appropriately targeted, lawfully applied or contribute important facts to an investigation.

Justice Department officials noted frequently this year that Inspector General Glenn A. Fine reports twice a year on abuses of the Patriot Act and has yet to substantiate any complaint. (One investigation is pending.) Fine advertises his role, but there is a puzzle built into the mandate. Under what scenario could a person protest a search of his personal records if he is never notified?

"We do rely upon complaints coming in," Fine said in House testimony in May. He added: "To the extent that people do not know of anything happening to them, there is an issue about whether they can complain. So, I think that's a legitimate question."



A national security letter cannot be used to authorize eavesdropping or to read the contents of e-mail. But it does permit investigators to trace revealing paths through the private affairs of a modern digital citizen. The records it yields describe where a person makes and spends money, with whom he lives and lived before, how much he gambles, what he buys online, what he pawns and borrows, where he travels, how he invests, what he searches for and reads on the Web, and who telephones or e-mails him at home and at work.



Barr, the former congressman, said that "the abuse is in the power itself."

"As a conservative," he said, "I really resent an administration that calls itself conservative taking the position that the burden is on the citizen to show the government has abused power, and otherwise shut up and comply."

At the ACLU, staff attorney Jameel Jaffer spoke of "the profound chilling effect" of this kind of surveillance: "If the government monitors the Web sites that people visit and the books that they read, people will stop visiting disfavored Web sites and stop reading disfavored books. The FBI should not have unchecked authority to keep track of who visits [al-Jazeera's Web site] or who visits the Web site of the Federalist Society."




wo years ago, Ashcroft rescinded a 1995 guideline directing that information obtained through a national security letter about a U.S. citizen or resident "shall be destroyed by the FBI and not further disseminated" if it proves "not relevant to the purposes for which it was collected." Ashcroft's new order was that "the FBI shall retain" all records it collects and "may disseminate" them freely among federal agencies.

The same order directed the FBI to develop "data mining" technology to probe for hidden links among the people in its growing cache of electronic files. According to an FBI status report, the bureau's office of intelligence began operating in January 2004 a new Investigative Data Warehouse, based on the same Oracle technology used by the CIA. The CIA is generally forbidden to keep such files on Americans.

Data mining intensifies the impact of national security letters, because anyone's personal files can be scrutinized again and again without a fresh need to establish relevance.

"The composite picture of a person which emerges from transactional information is more telling than the direct content of your speech," said Woods, the former FBI lawyer. "That's certainly not been lost on the intelligence community and the FBI."

Ashcroft's new guidelines allowed the FBI for the first time to add to government files consumer data from commercial providers such as LexisNexis and ChoicePoint Inc. Previous attorneys general had decided that such a move would violate the Privacy Act. In many field offices, agents said, they now have access to ChoicePoint in their squad rooms.

What national security letters add to government data banks is information that no commercial service can lawfully possess. Strict privacy laws, for example, govern financial and communications records. National security letters -- along with the more powerful but much less frequently used secret subpoenas from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court -- override them.


These faggots got everyone's name and info who stayed in fuckin Vegas with no court order - didnt find shit then kept all the information on 1,000,000 people
soviet union or nazi germany?




What Happens in Vegas'

The bureau displayed its ambition for data mining in an emergency operation at the end of 2003.

The Department of Homeland Security declared an orange alert on Dec. 21 of that year, in part because of intelligence that hinted at a New Year's Eve attack in Las Vegas. The identities of the plotters were unknown.

The FBI sent Gurvais Grigg, chief of the bureau's little-known Proactive Data Exploitation Unit, in an audacious effort to assemble a real-time census of every visitor in the nation's most-visited city. An average of about 300,000 tourists a day stayed an average of four days each, presenting Grigg's team with close to a million potential suspects in the ensuing two weeks.

A former stockbroker with a degree in biochemistry, Grigg declined to be interviewed. Government and private sector sources who followed the operation described epic efforts to vacuum up information.

An interagency task force began pulling together the records of every hotel guest, everyone who rented a car or truck, every lease on a storage space, and every airplane passenger who landed in the city. Grigg's unit filtered that population for leads. Any link to the known terrorist universe -- a shared address or utility account, a check deposited, a telephone call -- could give investigators a start.

"It was basically a manhunt, and in circumstances where there is a manhunt, the most effective way of doing that was to scoop up a lot of third party data and compare it to other data we were getting," Breinholt said.

Investigators began with emergency requests for help from the city's sprawling hospitality industry. "A lot of it was done voluntary at first," said Billy, the deputy assistant FBI director.

According to others directly involved, investigators turned to national security letters and grand jury subpoenas when friendly persuasion did not work.

Early in the operation, according to participants, the FBI gathered casino executives and asked for guest lists. The MGM Mirage company, followed by others, balked.

"Some casinos were saying no to consent [and said], 'You have to produce a piece of paper,' " said Jeff Jonas, chief scientist at IBM Entity Analytics, who previously built data management systems for casino surveillance. "They don't just market 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.' They want it to be true."

The operation remained secret for about a week. Then casino sources told Rod Smith, gaming editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal, that the FBI had served national security letters on them. In an interview for this article, one former casino executive confirmed the use of a national security letter. Details remain elusive. Some law enforcement officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they had not been authorized to divulge particulars, said they relied primarily on grand jury subpoenas. One said in an interview that national security letters may eventually have been withdrawn. Agents encouraged voluntary disclosures, he said, by raising the prospect that the FBI would use the letters to gather something more sensitive: the gambling profiles of casino guests. Caproni declined to confirm or deny that account.

What happened in Vegas stayed in federal data banks. Under Ashcroft's revised policy, none of the information has been purged. For every visitor, Breinholt said, "the record of the Las Vegas hotel room would still exist."

Grigg's operation found no suspect, and the orange alert ended on Jan. 10, 2004."The whole thing washed out," one participant said.



[frame]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/05/AR2005110501366.html[/frame]
 
conservatives do want less government, and thats independent of the fact that bush is not a real conservative by any standard.

compassionate conservative = conservative democrat
 
Isn't this the kind of activity that the public was "assured" -- wouldn't happen with the Patriot Act ???

QueEx
 
QueEx said:
Isn't this the kind of activity that the public was "assured" -- wouldn't happen with the Patriot Act ???

QueEx

What are you kidding? This kind of activity was "guaranteed" to happen.
 
Greed said:
conservatives do want less government, and thats independent of the fact that bush is not a real conservative by any standard.

compassionate conservative = conservative democrat
compassionate conservative = pure fuckin liar

you are correct though and it seems that most americans who vote in general are disgusted by all these assholes but I think many red state voters are pissed that Bush isnt the bornagain truth lover he claimed to be
unfortunately people can choose asshole a or asshole b in their elections
 
QueEx said:
Isn't this the kind of activity that the public was "assured" -- wouldn't happen with the Patriot Act ???

QueEx
what happened? there's no complaints, there's no proof that anything has been done that we can know about right?
smh
how the fuck do people complain about shit when they cant possibly know what is going on?

look at what they are doing to judges

U.S. District Judge Janet C. Hall ruled in September that the FBI gag order violates Christian's, and Library Connection's, First Amendment rights. A three-judge panel heard oral argument on Wednesday in the government's appeal.

The central facts remain opaque, even to the judges, because the FBI is not obliged to describe what it is looking for, or why. During oral argument in open court on Aug. 31, Hall said one government explanation was so vague that "if I were to say it out loud, I would get quite a laugh here." After the government elaborated in a classified brief delivered for her eyes only, she wrote in her decision that it offered "nothing specific."

The Justice Department tried to conceal the existence of the first and only other known lawsuit against a national security letter, also brought by the ACLU's Jaffer and Ann Beeson. Government lawyers opposed its entry into the public docket of a New York federal judge. They have since tried to censor nearly all the contents of the exhibits and briefs. They asked the judge, for example, to black out every line of the affidavit that describes the delivery of the national security letter to a New York Internet company, including, "I am a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation ('FBI')."

U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero, in a ruling that is under appeal, held that the law authorizing national security letters violates the First and Fourth Amendments.
 
Last edited:
Greed said:
conservatives do want less government, and thats independent of the fact that bush is not a real conservative by any standard.

compassionate conservative = conservative democrat

But I bet you voted for W!
 
you already said i am and i did, so why the fuck are you asking if its true 2 post later.

tell everyone why i'm conservative and i must've voted for bush.
 
Greed said:
you already said i am and i did, so why the fuck are you asking if its true 2 post later.

tell everyone why i'm conservative and i must've voted for bush.

Greed,

How dare you ask him to support his argument with a clear explanation, supportive logical evidence, and facts? It's very disturbing that you would hope for an explanation as to how he connected your post to right wing conservatism and a vote for Bush. Also, didn't you know that anything conservative is inherenly evil and meritless and deserves no futher examining. I'm just appalled that we are not to take this baseless proclamation as a fact. When are we going to learn that objective facts aren't important and only subjective opinions really hold any value? Shame shame Greed... can't believe that you are going to use his own words against him and not play his slippery game :lol:
 
eewwll said:
Greed,

How dare you ask him to support his argument with a clear explanation, supportive logical evidence, and facts? It's very disturbing that you would hope for an explanation as to how he connected your post to right wing conservatism and a vote for Bush. Also, didn't you know that anything conservative is inherenly evil and meritless and deserves no futher examining. I'm just appalled that we are not to take this baseless proclamation as a fact. When are we going to learn that objective facts aren't important and only subjective opinions really hold any value? Shame shame Greed... can't believe that you are going to use his own words against him and not play his slippery game :lol:

I will comment once on your tirade. Everything conservative is not inherently bad. But the very term conservative has been usurped by right wingers over the years. Conservatism by the dictionary definition means resistance to change. I have no idea why any black person would want to associate themselves with people that don’t want change.
 
<font size="5"><center>Congress Arrives at A Deal on Patriot Act</font size>
<font size="4">Limits Would Spare Some Controversial Government Powers</font size></center>

By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, November 17, 2005; Page A01

House and Senate negotiators reached a tentative agreement yesterday on revisions to the USA Patriot Act that would limit some of the government's powers while requiring the Justice Department to provide a better accounting of its secret requests for information on ordinary citizens.

But the agreement would leave intact some of the most controversial provisions of the anti-terrorism law, such as government access to library and bookstore records in terrorism probes, and would extend only limited new rights to the targets of such searches.

For President Bush, renewal of the act would provide a boost as he looks to restore his image as a strong commander in chief in combating terrorism. And Democrats said yesterday that the administration largely got what it wanted -- a major break after lawmakers challenged the White House in recent days on the conduct of the Iraq war, budget policies and tax cuts.

The deal would make permanent 14 Patriot Act provisions that were set to expire at the end of the year. Three other measures -- including one allowing law enforcement agents access to bookstore and public library records -- would be extended for seven years, or three years longer than the Senate had agreed to. The House initially extended the provisions for 10 years but later voted to accept the Senate's four-year extension.

Also extended for seven years is a provision allowing roving wiretaps that follow an individual who may use multiple means of communication, rather than targeting a single phone line. The agreement also extends for seven years a provision of a separate intelligence law passed last year that allows federal investigators to track an individual not connected to a foreign government but suspected of operating as a "lone wolf" terrorist.

The compromise would weaken a block of House-approved death penalty provisions that had elicited concern in the Senate and in legal circles. In the event that a jury could not agree to impose the death penalty on a convicted terrorist, House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) had hoped to empower prosecutors to impanel a new jury. The deal also excludes a House proposal to allow a death penalty for terrorist offenses that "create grave risk of death."

The agreement does extend the federal death penalty to those who knowingly transport materials used in a deadly terrorist attack, those who help plot a deadly attack on a mass-transit system, and those who participate in a deadly attack on ships and maritime facilities.

Republicans and Democrats said the agreement is a victory for Sensenbrenner, who defended the expanded government powers enacted after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Civil libertarians and liberal Democrats lamented the deal as another blow to individual rights. And three Democratic senators and three GOP senators declared the agreement unacceptable last night.

"Is Congress standing up to the president? No, not on this one," said Rep. Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.), a House Judiciary Committee Democrat.

The agreement, which could go to final votes in the House and Senate before the end of the week, is Congress's first effort to revise the national security measure that became law just weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks. During last year's presidential campaign, the Patriot Act was elevated to a major political issue, showcased by Bush as a sign of strength in the face of terrorism but maligned by many Democrats as an abuse of power. Hundreds of local governments have passed resolutions decrying the law as an infringement of civil liberties.

When Congress turned to reauthorizing the measure this year, there were bipartisan calls for major changes. House and Senate negotiators have agreed to limit the government's powers in some areas, while rebuffing Bush administration requests for new subpoena powers.

But on balance, the compromise sides with a stronger government hand when terrorism investigations clash with civil liberties concerns.

But Congress does not look ready to hand Bush all of the sweeping powers it was willing to grant in 2001. Negotiators refused to back the administration's request for administrative subpoenas, which would have expanded the government's power to subpoena records without the approval of a judge or grand jury in terrorism investigations. Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts (R-Kan.) called that "a serious mistake," saying the government already has such powers to investigate non-security issues such as Medicare fraud.

"We can do it for a dirty doctor but not a dirty bomber," he said.

While the government would retain access to library, bookstore and business records, the FBI would face new limits on the retention and dissemination of such information.

The compromise also places new controls on the FBI's use of "national security letters," which require companies to provide private information about their customers and to keep the request secret. The Patriot Act allowed the FBI to use such letters on any citizen it deemed relevant to a national security investigation, even if the target is not suspected of any wrong-doing.


A Nov. 6 article in The Washington Post revealed that loosened restrictions in the Patriot Act helped boost the annual use of such letters 100-fold, to more than 30,000 a year from about 300 before the Sept. 11 attacks.

Under the compromise, the Justice Department would have to disclose the number of requests it made for information concerning different targeted people in the United States, but not including the communications subscriber information that makes up the bulk of such requests.

Those who receive such letters would be allowed to consult a lawyer and challenge the requests under a new judicial review process.

But critics said those controls were more cosmetic than real. A recipient wishing to reveal only the receipt of a security letter would have to prove that disclosure would not harm national security or diplomatic relations or endanger any lives or public safety, while the government can merely assert disclosure would have those effects.

Staff writer Dan Eggen contributed to this report.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5111601047.html?referrer=email&referrer=email
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

so basically nothing changed and these new empowered democrats have done nothing again

goes great with a plate of fuck habeas corpus
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

<font size="5"><center>Sen. Specter Puts Brakes on Patriot Act Extension</font size></center>
<font size="4"><center>The judiciary panel chairman joins critics of the law, delaying
a vote. He calls for four-year expiration dates on some provisions.</font size></center>

The Los Angeles Times
By Mary Curtius, Times Staff Writer
November 19, 2005

WASHINGTON — Senate Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) joined Friday with a bipartisan group of critics to reject a proposed agreement to extend the Patriot Act, dealing the White House an embarrassing setback and dashing its hopes that Congress would vote on the sweeping antiterrorism law before adjourning for Thanksgiving.

Speaking at a news conference called by senators who have threatened to filibuster the House-backed legislation unless it provides greater privacy protections, Specter said he disagreed with House negotiators over the expiration dates for two of the law's 16 provisions.

"My view is that the Patriot Act needs further analysis and some revision from what is in the proposed conference report at the present time," Specter said. The statute expires Dec. 31, and pressure is building on Congress to act.

Specter said that he wanted four-year expiration dates for a provision that gives the FBI broad leeway to seize personal and business information — the so-called library provision — and a second provision that allows the FBI to wiretap any phone a suspect uses. The current version has seven-year expiration dates.

The failure to win a vote Friday came as the White House fought mounting perceptions on Capitol Hill that President Bush, whose public approval ratings have plummeted in recent weeks, is becoming a lame duck. It also added to the perception of a congressional Republican leadership struggling to hold its increasingly fractious majority together on important votes.

The Patriot Act, enacted just weeks after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, is the centerpiece of the administration's domestic war on terrorism. Passed by both the Senate and House by overwhelming margins, the law greatly expanded the powers of the FBI and the Justice Department to combat terrorism, in part by tearing down the legal wall between law enforcement authorities and intelligence investigators.

It met with resistance across the political spectrum, however, from those who feared government abuse of its broad powers to track and investigate terrorism suspects. Lawmakers from both parties have fought for greater congressional oversight and for expiration dates on some of the more controversial provisions.

The administration has urged that all of the law's provisions be made permanent, saying it was a vital tool in the war on terrorism. In a last-ditch effort to get a vote this week extending the law, White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. attempted to broker a deal between House and Senate negotiators Thursday night, but failed to bridge the gap between the two chambers.

Dana Perino, a White House press secretary, downplayed the significance of the setback.

"We have been pleased with the progress that the conference has made," Perino said. "We are confident that the measure will pass. It is critical that it passes by the end of the year, and we know that Congress understands that."

But one Republican, Sen. John E. Sununu of New Hampshire, blamed the White House for what he said was "this unnecessary fiasco."

"The White House could have been much more helpful throughout the process if they had really engaged members of the Senate," Sununu said in an interview. Senior White House and Justice Department officials, he complained, had failed "to reach out earlier to members of the Senate to understand the substance of these concerns" that he and others began to raise two years ago.

Sununu faulted the administration for resisting changes in a law that was passed in haste when the nation was still in shock from the Al Qaeda attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"It is the height of arrogance," he said, "to suggest you could pass historic legislation in the weeks after a tragedy and know, for sure, that it is perfect."

Jim Dempsey, executive director of the Center for Democracy and Technology, a group that supports renewing the Patriot Act but with greater protections for privacy rights and civil liberties, said the administration and House leadership "misread the sentiment in the Congress."

"I think that there is widespread concern about some of the unrestricted powers in the Patriot Act, and it's bipartisan," he said. "At the moment, it is an embarrassment for the administration and the [congressional] leadership. But they could make a few cosmetic changes" and win passage next month.

House Judiciary Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.) said, "We still have work to do with the Senate conferees." He noted that the proposed compromise would make permanent 14 of the law's 16 provisions. The legislation would limit the time agents can conduct some types of searches without notifying the targets, let companies challenge demands that they turn over their records to aid an investigation, and take other steps to protect privacy rights.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ov19,1,2775864.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
 
Theads, funny as usual.

Conservatives do want a smaller government, but since the administration is made up of NEO-conservatives, you can throw that concept out of the window. Neo-conservatives "hijacked" the so called conservative party or republican or right wing or whatever the hell you want to call it.

They have the masses fooled and just wait, it's going to get more interesting.

Patriot Act:
They have some provisions in there that will put the clamps on a lot of these leaks and "conspiracies." Just you wait. And once again the media is making light of some but not all questionable provisions.
ie.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

That's disturbing.
 
ACLU Defends Bus Rider Who Refused to Show ID

ACLU Defends Bus Rider Who Refused to Show ID
by Jeff Brady

All Things Considered, December 3, 2005 · A Colorado woman faces misdemeanor charges for refusing to show an ID to Department of Homeland Security guards while riding a public bus. Guards routinely seek ID before the bus goes through a federal office complex in Denver. Deborah Davis says she's resisting unconstitutional intrusions on her personal liberty. 4 min 18 sec

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5038228
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

bumpage
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

At the end of the day both partys are one in the same about big goverment and provide more rent to the rent seekers. Do you not notice when the Republicans where in charge the Democrats where talking about upholding the constitution, and now the Democrats are in charge the Republicans want to uphold the constitution.
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

At the end of the day both partys are one in the same about big goverment and provide more rent to the rent seekers. Do you not notice when the Republicans where in charge the Democrats where talking about upholding the constitution, and now the Democrats are in charge the Republicans want to uphold the constitution.
That's an oversimplification since the Dems were being accurate back then and the repubs are full of shit now. The dems are frauds too just not as fraudulent as repubs.
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

Both Partys are frauds in my opinion I am opposed to both them, it is because of thier fault we are in the situation we are in today. The only true conservative in the Republican Party is Ron Paul. The Neo-Cons are for open borders, NAFTA endless wars Corpatism/Facism, gun control, arresting American citizens with out due process. There is a difference big between Conservative and Neo-Con.
That's an oversimplification since the Dems were being accurate back then and the repubs are full of shit now. The dems are frauds too just not as fraudulent as repubs.
 
Re: Conservatives want less government? bullshit they want to know everything that yo

Both Partys are frauds in my opinion I am opposed to both them, it is because of thier fault we are in the situation we are in today. The only true conservative in the Republican Party is Ron Paul. The Neo-Cons are for open borders, NAFTA endless wars Corpatism/Facism, gun control, arresting American citizens with out due process. There is a difference big between Conservative and Neo-Con.
I Guess this puts you in the category with the Librarians.

QueEx
 
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