Cheney: "Reagan proved deficits don't matter…"

So called republican conservatives claim to be upset at passing the debt to future generations.

:roflmao:
 
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Lamarr what do you think about GOP's comment?

idk, If it's what Dick said, Dick is a baffoon! He's using a dim-witted argument to justify W's doubling of the National Debt. :smh:
I never paid much attention to Reagan but he and Volker had a 'strong' dollar policy. High interest rates encouraged saving, our manufacturing base was still intact and Volker gave a damn about the value of the dollar, unlike Greenspan/Bernanke. Make no mistake, spending is spending, you'll have to pay one day. I guess you'd have to see how the money is used. I wouldn't have a problem if the money was used to invest in assets that create revenue.

For the record, I wouldn't/don't agree with Reagan's spending on the "War On Drugs".
 
On second glimpse, Cheney is out of his mind, deficits matter because one must understand the origin of "money". When the govt spends money, it rarely benefits the people who could use it to better their situation. However, it always benefits the institution or contractor providing the service!

The Real Problem: The Fed negates the very foundation of a free market by artificially manipulating the price and supply of money – the lifeblood of the economy. In a free market, interest rates, like the price of any other consumer good, are decentralized and set by the market. The only legitimate, Constitutional role of government in monetary policy is to protect the integrity of the monetary unit and defend against counterfeiters
 
On second glimpse, Cheney is out of his mind, deficits matter because one must understand the origin of "money". When the govt spends money, it rarely benefits the people who could use it to better their situation. However, it always benefits the institution or contractor providing the service!

The Real Problem: The Fed negates the very foundation of a free market by artificially manipulating the price and supply of money – the lifeblood of the economy. In a free market, interest rates, like the price of any other consumer good, are decentralized and set by the market. The only legitimate, Constitutional role of government in monetary policy is to protect the integrity of the monetary unit and defend against counterfeiters

On second glimpse, Cheney is out of his mind,

What about Reagan?
 
The Tea Baggers want to put the same criminals back who caused the mess.

FoxNews can mislead a lot of people (not me) but it's coming to a point where people just want the truth.

Imagine if Pres. Obama simply stood up to Wall Street and told the Banksters NO, he'd have a 90% approval rating overnight! It's that simple
 
Imagine if Pres. Obama simply stood up to Wall Street and told the Banksters NO, he'd have a 90% approval rating overnight! It's that simple

At first.

Then, once the people realize the government can't function without the banks, and their lifestyle collapses...

they'd be calling for his head.

Because if Obama really stood up to the banks, the Federal government would collapse OR,

we really would be looking at a FASCIST state.
 
At first.

Then, once the people realize the government can't function without the banks, and their lifestyle collapses...

they'd be calling for his head.

yeah, but the standard of living is gonna drop anyway. People know something is wrong but can't quite identify what it is. A bit of honesty would go a long way, not only here, but abroad.

Through 'true' leadership, I see a tough 18-24 months but a real road to recovery. Diversity has its strengths and when the chips are down, people have a way of coming together for a common cause.

Am I being overly optimistic?
 
yeah, but the standard of living is gonna drop anyway. People know something is wrong but can't quite identify what it is. A bit of honesty would go a long way, not only here, but abroad.

Through 'true' leadership, I see a tough 18-24 months but a real road to recovery. Diversity has its strengths and when the chips are down, people have a way of coming together for a common cause.

Am I being overly optimistic?

I agree.

It's just that in every modern government, you must have banks.

In fact, you must have central banks.

And, to put a fine point on it, you must have fiat currency.

Obama will never stand up to the banks because the government would collapse. Bush was basically blackmailed by Paulson. Paulson, "Mr. President, if you don't give the banks what they want, the economy will collapse."

What politician has the courage to stand up to that kind of threat?

We both know things would be okay in a few years, but that's not how politicians think.

At least, that's how I see it.
 
Bush was basically blackmailed by Paulson. Paulson, "Mr. President, if you don't give the banks what they want, the economy will collapse."

:lol:

Cruise, for a half second, I was beginning to give you some respect for your political convictions until you made this preposterous statement. If you think GW was coerced in to creating the TARP, bailout you are more naive than I had pegged you to be. When GW and Cheney set forth in to the Iraqi and Afghan wars and then, the tax cuts of 2002 and 2003, you’re tell me he didn’t know what the out come would be?
 
FoxNews can mislead a lot of people (not me) but it's coming to a point where people just want the truth.

Imagine if Pres. Obama simply stood up to Wall Street and told the Banksters NO, he'd have a 90% approval rating overnight! It's that simple


I agree with you! We need more FDR and less WJC. You need to step into my FDR posts. FDR told the bankers in 1932 to go fuck themselves and the told them I welcome your hatred.
 
:lol:

Cruise, for a half second, I was beginning to give you some respect for your political convictions until you made this preposterous statement. If you think GW was coerced in to creating the TARP, bailout you are more naive than I had pegged you to be. When GW and Cheney set forth in to the Iraqi and Afghan wars and then, the tax cuts of 2002 and 2003, you’re tell me he didn’t know what the out come would be?

I only mentioned the bailout, that's it.

I was only making the point that the bailout was not Bush's idea. What would he have to gain? Bush was an oilman, not a banker.

All Bush knew was that the bankers were telling him the economy would collapse unless he did as he was told.

Now, for the part you won't like, Obama did the same thing.

No one is going to stand up to the banks, including the President.

I agree with you! We need more FDR and less WJC. You need to step into my FDR posts. FDR told the bankers in 1932 to go fuck themselves and the told them I welcome your hatred.

All FDR did was trade one Wall Street banking cartel (the Morgans) with another (the Rockefellers).

FDR hated the Morgan banking interests and essentially killed their influence. The Rockefellers and their pet bank, Goldman Sachs, became the new "most favored" banking power in this country.

You can't be President without a friend in the banks.
 
I agree.

It's just that in every modern government, you must have banks.

In fact, you must have central banks.

And, to put a fine point on it, you must have fiat currency.

Dare I mention the introduction of a competing currency :)
idk, it'll be quite a ride. Why do you say a fiat currency is a must? I understand that modern govt's operate this way but it just seems that fiat currencies lead to a lot of instability.

We both know things would be okay in a few years, but that's not how politicians think.

it's all about the next election with these guys.
 
Dare I mention the introduction of a competing currency :)

This is the answer, in my opinion. Competition!

idk, it'll be quite a ride. Why do you say a fiat currency is a must? I understand that modern govt's operate this way but it just seems that fiat currencies lead to a lot of instability.



it's all about the next election with these guys.

With fiat currency, government can grow indefinitely.

With gold or silver money, the government can grow, but eventually has to shrink to reflect the availability of the money.

Whether Cheney understood this or not, can be debated. But, I can see the argument for saying, "deficits don't matter" with a fiat currency.
 
I only mentioned the bailout, that's it.

I was only making the point that the bailout was not Bush's idea. What would he have to gain? Bush was an oilman, not a banker.

All Bush knew was that the bankers were telling him the economy would collapse unless he did as he was told.

Now, for the part you won't like, Obama did the same thing.

No one is going to stand up to the banks, including the President.

You must have a short memory. Remember Bush is the only President with an MBA? Even if he slept through every class at the Yale School of management, which I would not doubt that he did, he couldn’t be that oblivious to what was going on. He and his advisors convened secret meetings for about a year before the crash. Even the most partisan, pro capitalistic libertarian would have to be in deep denial to not admit that GW was trying to wait out the bad news and pass it on to the next administration to lay the blame on them. Bush knew!

All FDR did was trade one Wall Street banking cartel (the Morgans) with another (the Rockefellers).

FDR hated the Morgan banking interests and essentially killed their influence. The Rockefellers and their pet bank, Goldman Sachs, became the new "most favored" banking power in this country.

You can't be President without a friend in the banks.

Your knowledge of history is interesting to say the least. The Great Depression was brought on by cheap credit in the so called ‘Roaring 20s,’ little if any regulation of the banking system and even less enforcement. Sound familiar, isn’t that what you want today?
 
You must have a short memory. Remember Bush is the only President with an MBA? Even if he slept through every class at the Yale School of management, which I would not doubt that he did, he couldn’t be that oblivious to what was going on. He and his advisors convened secret meetings for about a year before the crash.

Thought, you givin this cat too much credit, remember:

"I've abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system." - Dubya

That was a Paulson move bruh!
 
Thought, you givin this cat too much credit, remember:

"I've abandoned free-market principles to save the free-market system." - Dubya

That was a Paulson move bruh!

Your issue is you believe them when words come out of their mouths. How can you be a free marketer when you allow non competitive no bid contracts for an illegal war. Like I said before the very definition of “Free Market" is in question.
 
Even the most partisan, pro capitalistic libertarian would have to be in deep denial to not admit that GW was trying to wait out the bad news and pass it on to the next administration to lay the blame on them. Bush knew!

I can't give Bush that much credit.

This is the same guy that said the fundamentals of the economy were sound when Bear Stearns collapsed. He is the same guy that made the whole US government look weak as wet tissue paper when New Orleans drowned.

Yet, I am supposed to believe he had any inkling about the complexities of government finance, monetary policy, and central banking?

Your knowledge of history is interesting to say the least. The Great Depression was brought on by cheap credit in the so called ‘Roaring 20s,’ little if any regulation of the banking system and even less enforcement. Sound familiar, isn’t that what you want today?

I don't believe the regulation argument, because it advances a pro-government agenda.

One argument is the Fed needed to create a crisis to get their charter re-newed permanently, so they intentionally flooded the country with cheap credit because they knew it would lead to a bust.

Another argument is the US government wanted to rebuild Europe after World War I to guarantee export markets and went to the Fed to pressure them to lower interest rates so American goods would be cheaper in European countries.

Another argument is the Fed wanted greater control of the currency and banking in the US and so created a bubble with a bust to wipe out the immense competition from state banks and to get the unit banking laws repealed.

Who knows, maybe it was a little bit of each one. But, I don't believe regulation was the issue.

Curious: does that, in your estimation, include Ron Paul, as president ? ? ?

QueEx

Ron Paul has already said he wouldn't get rid of the Federal Reserve if he were President because it was impractical.
 
I can't give Bush that much credit.

This is the same guy that said the fundamentals of the economy were sound when Bear Stearns collapsed. He is the same guy that made the whole US government look weak as wet tissue paper when New Orleans drowned.

Yet, I am supposed to believe he had any inkling about the complexities of government finance, monetary policy, and central banking?

Oh come on!!! You actually think GW believed that the fundamentals of the economy were sound? He was trying to salvage what was left of is credibility and the so called free marketers ideology that had won the political debate over the last thirty years. A false premise, but has been absorbed by those born after 1978 or so as the gospel. A gospel that has been drummed in to the heads of the "Me" generation and they believe it. The end of the Bush regime was like someone finally telling a child that there is no Santa Claus and they after a period of denial look back at that time of falsehood as a blissfully ignorant time of innocence that they wish could return to even though they understand that it was just a ploy to pacify them from the reality of life. That's way GW recent stated that his decision to bail out Wall Street was went against all of his instincts. He said he still didn't sell his soul during is presidency. That's a new one to me. That he has a soul.

I don't believe the regulation argument, because it advances a pro-government agenda.

What the fuck is a 'Pro Government agenda'?

One argument is the Fed needed to create a crisis to get their charter re-newed permanently, so they intentionally flooded the country with cheap credit because they knew it would lead to a bust.

How is the Fed making greedy capitalists bet more money than they have. That is a natural human instinct. Government oversight, like rules to a football game help make the rules uniform

Another argument is the US government wanted to rebuild Europe after World War I to guarantee export markets and went to the Fed to pressure them to lower interest rates so American goods would be cheaper in European countries.

Again your knowledge of history is laughable. After WWI, the US became one of the most isolationist countries in the world. The League of Nations which was the forerunner of the United Nations was established in San Francisco after WWI, was not given much power until after WWII. We were so much of an isolationist nation that after repeated pleas from Great Britain to intervene in the Nazi sweep of Europe we did little more than give Britain logistical support. We knew about the death camps, American corporations were dealing with the Nazis and obliged to make profits from them. It took Japan to directly attack us until we decided to go full bore in to the war. We didn’t even have a credible standing army, something the Constitution specifically laid out. Your hypnotically arguments fly in the face of reality. I suggest you break out a history book and lay off of Faux Financial News channel.

Another argument is the Fed wanted greater control of the currency and banking in the US and so created a bubble with a bust to wipe out the immense competition from state banks and to get the unit banking laws repealed.

Oh boy, pure speculation.

Who knows, maybe it was a little bit of each one. But, I don't believe regulation was the issue.


The causes and effects of the Great Depression are one of the most documented and studied events in world history. There is no ‘who knows’ about it. In fact my dad and mom lived right through them. So I can fact check the academic archives of that era. In fact the controls and regulations instituted by FDR allowed almost 40 years of the greatest economic prosperity a nation has ever enjoyed. Only after the roll back of those regulations and controls during the 1970s and eighties did we have the cycle of boom and bust financial events that have led to today’s fiasco.


Ron Paul has already said he wouldn't get rid of the Federal Reserve if he were President because it was impractical.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant!
 
Oh come on!!! You actually think GW believed that the fundamentals of the economy were sound?

I do not respect the mind of Bush.

W is one of those guys that actually says what he believes, in my opinion. I guess you have to respect that much about him.

What the fuck is a 'Pro Government agenda'?

This is the agenda that more government makes the lives of the people better.

How is the Fed making greedy capitalists bet more money than they have. That is a natural human instinct. Government oversight, like rules to a football game help make the rules uniform

The Fed sets interests rates. The interest rate is like the price of borrowing. If you lower the price, more people will borrow. If you raise the price, fewer people will borrow.

When you artifically lower the price of something, people tend to waste it more. In the case of borrowing, people invest in more speculative projects that would not have made sense if the Fed had not meddled with the interest rate.

Economics 101

Again your knowledge of history is laughable. After WWI, the US became one of the most isolationist countries in the world. The League of Nations which was the forerunner of the United Nations was established in San Francisco after WWI, was not given much power until after WWII. We were so much of an isolationist nation that after repeated pleas from Great Britain to intervene in the Nazi sweep of Europe we did little more than give Britain logistical support. We knew about the death camps, American corporations were dealing with the Nazis and obliged to make profits from them. It took Japan to directly attack us until we decided to go full bore in to the war. We didn’t even have a credible standing army, something the Constitution specifically laid out. Your hypnotically arguments fly in the face of reality. I suggest you break out a history book and lay off of Faux Financial News channel.

You believe the US wasn't part of the international trading community after World War I?

Well, how do you think Britain, France, and Germany rebuilt themsleves?

In fact the controls and regulations instituted by FDR allowed almost 40 years of the greatest economic prosperity a nation has ever enjoyed. Only after the roll back of those regulations and controls during the 1970s and eighties did we have the cycle of boom and bust financial events that have led to today’s fiasco.

No, FDR prolonged the Great Depression.

The reason the United States was such a dominant economic powerhouse from 1940-1970, was one thing...

OIL!

Once the United States oil production peaked in 1970, so ended United States economic dominance. And, the country had to start importing, just like Europe.

It had nothing to do with so-called great politicians but the realities of relative resource abundance.
 
This is the agenda that more government makes the lives of the people better.

When legislation is constructed properly, it does. Would you get rid of the FAA, FDA or FCC?

You believe the US wasn't part of the international trading community after World War I?

Well, how do you think Britain, France, and Germany rebuilt themsleves?

Between WWI and WWII their was very little. How do you think the Nazi party rose to power? Germany was devastated economical after WWI. Their currency was in shambles. Hyper inflation run mad. After WWII the Marshall plan was created to quickly fill a political and economic vacuum that if was not filled, the Soviet Union was standing by to fill.

No, FDR prolonged the Great Depression.

source: Salon

Did you hear FDR prolonged the Great Depression?
Conservatives' newest talking point -- designed to stop Congress from passing an economic stimulus package -- is breathtaking.
By David Sirota
If you're like me, you sometimes find yourself speechless when confronted with abject insanity.

If you're like me, for instance, you were dumbfounded when "Forrest Gump" beat out "Pulp Fiction" for best picture; when HBO's "Sopranos" received more accolades than "The Wire"; and when George W. Bush insisted Iraqi airplanes were about to drop WMD on American cities.

So if you're like me, you probably understand why I was momentarily tongue-tied last week after running face-first into conservatives' newest (and most ridiculous) talking point: the one designed to stop Congress from passing an economic stimulus package.

During a Christmas Eve appearance on Fox News, I pointed out that most mainstream economists believe the government must boost the economy with deficit spending. That's when conservative pundit Monica Crowley said we should instead limit such spending because President Franklin Roosevelt's "massive government intervention actually prolonged the Great Depression." Fox News anchor Gregg Jarrett eagerly concurred, saying "historians pretty much agree on that."

Of course, I had recently heard snippets of this silly argument; right-wing pundits are repeating it everywhere these days. But I had never heard it articulated in such preposterous terms, so my initial reaction was paralysis, the mouth-agape, deer-in-the-headlights kind. Only after collecting myself did I say that such assertions about the New Deal were absurd. But then I was laughed at, as if it was hilarious to say that the New Deal did anything but exacerbate the Depression.

Afterward, suffering pangs of self-doubt, I wondered whether I and most of the country were the crazy ones. Sure, the vast majority of Americans think the New Deal worked well. But are conservatives right? Did the New Deal's "massive government intervention prolong the Great Depression?"

Ummm ... no.

On deeper examination, I discovered that the right bases its New Deal revisionism on the short-lived recession in a year straddling 1937 and 1938. But that was four years into Roosevelt's term -- four years marked by spectacular economic growth. Additionally, the fleeting decline happened not because of the New Deal's spending programs, but because Roosevelt momentarily listened to conservatives and backed off them. As Nobel-winning economist Paul Krugman notes, in 1937-38, FDR "was persuaded to balance the budget" and "cut spending and the economy went back down again."

To be sure, you can credibly argue that the New Deal had its share of problems. But overall, the numbers prove it helped -- rather than hurt -- the macroeconomy. "Excepting 1937-1938, unemployment fell each year of Roosevelt's first two terms [while] the U.S. economy grew at average annual growth rates of 9 percent to 10 percent," writes University of California historian Eric Rauchway.

What about the New Deal's most "massive government intervention" -- its financial regulations? Did they prolong the Great Depression in ways the official data didn't detect?

Nope.

According to Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke, "Only with the New Deal's rehabilitation of the financial system in 1933-35 did the economy begin its slow emergence from the Great Depression." In fact, even famed conservative economist Milton Friedman admitted that the New Deal's Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was "the structural change most conducive to monetary stability since ... the Civil War."

OK -- if the verifiable evidence proves the New Deal did not prolong the Depression, what about historians -- do they "pretty much agree" on the opposite?

Again, no.

As Newsweek's Daniel Gross reports, "One would be very hard-pressed to find a serious professional historian who believes that the New Deal prolonged the Depression."

But that's the critical point I somehow forgot last week, the truism we must all remember in 2009: As conservatives try to obstruct a new New Deal, they're not making any arguments that are remotely serious.

Once the United States oil production peaked in 1970, so ended United States economic dominance. And, the country had to start importing, just like Europe.

Just for argument sake assuming your statement is true, then you agree that Jimmy Carter’s attempt to wean us off of oil was one of the best policy decisions of that last 35 years and Reagan’s total rejection of this was short sighted and harmful to the nation and Obama’s attempt to do the same as Cater is right on the mark?
 
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When legislation is constructed properly, it does. Would you get rid of the FAA, FDA or FCC?

Yes, through a gradual phase-out process. Though the FCC could probably be ended immediately.

Between WWI and WWII their was very little. How do you think the Nazi party rose to power? Germany was devastated economical after WWI. Their currency was in shambles. Hyper inflation run mad. After WWII the Marshall plan was created to quickly fill a political and economic vacuum that if was not filled, the Soviet Union was standing by to fill.

You need to learn about world trade during the interwar period from 1918-1938.

Britain, France, and Germany imported the hell out of US food, fuel, and equipment.

And, you can't say the currency under Hitler was in a shambles. It WAS under the Weimar Republic in the early 1920s as they tried to repay the HUGE reparations that the Allies forced on them. That is what led to Hitler's rise to power.

By 1933, the German currency was stable. Hitler and the Reichsbank were hard-nosed inflation-fighters. They were determined to keep the Reichsmark highly valued for world trade, so they could keep importing to build the Nazi war machine.

Some speculate Hitler's entire militancy was really driven by his fear of being dependent on Britain and the United States to feed Germany.

Germany lacked the land to feed its population, so Hitler wanted lebensraum (or living space). It was really about food.

Did you hear FDR prolonged the Great Depression?
Conservatives' newest talking point -- designed to stop Congress from passing an economic stimulus package -- is breathtaking.

First, if you are going to group me with Conservatives, I can group you with Ben "Bank Bailout" Bernanke.

Second, just because I'm not a Liberal, doesn't mean I'm a Conservative.

Third, I could break down the stuff FDR did to keep pushing economic recovery back, but that would need to be another thread.

Just for argument sake assuming your statement is true, then you agree that Jimmy Carter’s attempt to wean us off of oil was one of the best policy decisions of that last 35 years and Reagan’s total rejection of this was short sighted and harmful to the nation and Obama’s attempt to do the same as Cater is right on the mark?

I agree except about Obama.
 
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