By the way, can we say Roach is overrated

Alaskanredman

Alaskanredman

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It seemed like Pac had no game plan or plan b.

I heard no instructions on how to change the course of the fight.

Pac looked lost out there and now Roach is saying they have to work on counter punchers.

Did they think Marquez was going to do something else...:confused:
 
P03t said:
I wouldn't call Roach overrated...
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Yes he is - he's been with Pac for how many years and Pac just now is developing a LITTLE bit of a boxing game. How many fights were they together before Pac even started throwing a right hand - like 20. Roach's strength is knowing who his guy should be matched against so he can look good. His 2 biggest fighters have sloppy footwork and throw sloppy combos.
 
merce77 said:
Yes he is - he's been with Pac for how many years and Pac just now is developing a LITTLE bit of a boxing game. How many fights were they together before Pac even started throwing a right hand - like 20. Roach's strength is knowing who his guy should be matched against so he can look good. His 2 biggest fighters have sloppy footwork and throw sloppy combos.
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He evolved.
 
merce77 said:
Yes he is - he's been with Pac for how many years and Pac just now is developing a LITTLE bit of a boxing game. How many fights were they together before Pac even started throwing a right hand - like 20. Roach's strength is knowing who his guy should be matched against so he can look good. His 2 biggest fighters have sloppy footwork and throw sloppy combos.
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I think he made Pac actually better....and really improved Khan...the match making isn't totally on Roach...Arum is the brains behind their ridiculous match making more so than Roach IMO....

some aspects of his training has holes no doubt...but I have seen him improve boxers over the years.....
 
P03t said:
I think he made Pac actually better....and really improved Khan...the match making isn't totally on Roach...Arum is the brains behind their ridiculous match making more so than Roach IMO....

some aspects of his training has holes no doubt...but I have seen him improve boxers over the years.....
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I disagree. Pac has a problem with counter punchers and with these two fights against some of the best boxer/counter punchers out there, he should have been more prepared. More effort should have been made to improve his defensive and footwork. That isn't Roach's thing... its like he only expects his boxer to go shot for shot.

Adding offensive tools to a guys like Pac is cool when you put him up against guys that just want to bang, but let's be real he would have beat the Margaritos, the Mosleys, the Hattons and so on without those tools. Against good technical boxers that use movement to their advantage, he will risk losing every time. Perfect example of this is Cotto... he tried to muscle Pac got hurt and then he was finding success with moving and boxing. It was already too late though. Shit even Mosley was too scared to fight but just fucked Pac's offense up with movement.

Under most of the other top trainers, they would have attempted to get a handle on this things. Khan is probably going to end being a better fighter than Pac because he started with better fundamentals before he started fucking with Roach. Yet, when that heat started to rain down from Maidana... where was Roach is all I'm saying.
 
Alaskanredman said:
I disagree. Pac has a problem with counter punchers and with these two fights against some of the best boxer/counter punchers out there, he should have been more prepared. More effort should have been made to improve his defensive and footwork. That isn't Roach's thing... its like he only expects his boxer to go shot for shot.

Adding offensive tools to a guys like Pac is cool when you put him up against guys that just want to bang, but let's be real he would have beat the Margaritos, the Mosleys, the Hattons and so on without those tools. Against good technical boxers that use movement to their advantage, he will risk losing every time. Perfect example of this is Cotto... he tried to muscle Pac got hurt and then he was finding success with moving and boxing. It was already too late though. Shit even Mosley was too scared to fight but just fucked Pac's offense up with movement.

Under most of the other top trainers, they would have attempted to get a handle on this things. Khan is probably going to end being a better fighter than Pac because he started with better fundamentals before he started fucking with Roach. Yet, when that heat started to rain down from Maidana... where was Roach is all I'm saying.
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Roach himself was never a technical fighter - he was just like Manny without the speed and power.
 
Come on people, you can talk all you want about roach, but the reality is that he got a freak in his hands. When you have an athlete with the kind of tools that manny has, is not hard to see why he makes roach look like an ace.

Manny natural talents ( speed, conditioning..) are things that will make a lot of boxers separate them from the pack. but in reality his boxing skills are not what are making the difference. Look at PBF, same tools, 3 times the defense and very selective and accurate on the offense, game over.
 
Alaskanredman said:
I disagree. Pac has a problem with counter punchers and with these two fights against some of the best boxer/counter punchers out there, he should have been more prepared. More effort should have been made to improve his defensive and footwork. That isn't Roach's thing... its like he only expects his boxer to go shot for shot.

Adding offensive tools to a guys like Pac is cool when you put him up against guys that just want to bang, but let's be real he would have beat the Margaritos, the Mosleys, the Hattons and so on without those tools. Against good technical boxers that use movement to their advantage, he will risk losing every time. Perfect example of this is Cotto... he tried to muscle Pac got hurt and then he was finding success with moving and boxing. It was already too late though. Shit even Mosley was too scared to fight but just fucked Pac's offense up with movement.

Under most of the other top trainers, they would have attempted to get a handle on this things. Khan is probably going to end being a better fighter than Pac because he started with better fundamentals before he started fucking with Roach. Yet, when that heat started to rain down from Maidana... where was Roach is all I'm saying.
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honestly Roach is a great trainer when it comes to gameplans his fighters tend to stick to the plan...he is more of an offensive trainer....which is why I don't expect guys like Pac do do well against great defensive fighters or counter punchers...

Pac is a great athlete...not so great Boxer...IMO Pac has gotten away with being the superior athlete in the ring for a long time....when he has to fight a real technical fighter or a great counter puncher he will take a lost...

I agree that Khan will eventually surpass Pac cuz he has a better skillset when it comes to Boxing....which is why I'm not surprised there is tension between the camps...

I still have a great deal of respect for Roach he has improved alot of fighters and built a few prospects all dealing with Parkinson's....

I wouldn't call him overrated next dude learned everything from the greatest Eddie Futch...
 
P03t said:
honestly Roach is a great trainer when it comes to gameplans his fighters tend to stick to the plan...he is more of an offensive trainer....which is why I don't expect guys like Pac do do well against great defensive fighters or counter punchers...

Pac is a great athlete...not so great Boxer...IMO Pac has gotten away with being the superior athlete in the ring for a long time....when he has to fight a real technical fighter or a great counter puncher he will take a lost...

I agree that Khan will eventually surpass Pac cuz he has a better skillset when it comes to Boxing....which is why I'm not surprised there is tension between the camps...

I still have a great deal of respect for Roach he has improved alot of fighters and built a few prospects all dealing with Parkinson's....

I wouldn't call him overrated next dude learned everything from the greatest Eddie Futch...
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I hear what you're saying and I agree with everything except him developing fighters. It wasn't until Pac fought David Diaz that this idea of a "different" "new improved" Pac came around - after he moved up(but that's another story). Anyway, my point is, what about the 20 previous fights he'd had with Freddie - no improvement. Then he moves up in weight and suddenly he's a different fighter with all these "skills"? Makes zero sense to give Freddie the credit for that. Maybe Ariza and his bag of tricks deserve a lil more props if it took Freddie 20 fights to get Pac to throw his right hand.
 
merce77 said:
I hear what you're saying and I agree with everything except him developing fighters. It wasn't until Pac fought David Diaz that this idea of a "different" "new improved" Pac came around - after he moved up(but that's another story). Anyway, my point is, what about the 20 previous fights he'd had with Freddie - no improvement. Then he moves up in weight and suddenly he's a different fighter with all these "skills"? Makes zero sense to give Freddie the credit for that. Maybe Ariza and his bag of tricks deserve a lil more props if it took Freddie 20 fights to get Pac to throw his right hand.
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I feel you bruh...at the same time Pac was never a real cerebral fighter after Marquez was tagging him up dude didn't even try to attack the body :hithead:

dude just kept doing the same shit hoping to get a KO...Pac was a creation from great match making both by Roach & Arum...

when he destroyed Diaz that was typical Pac great athlete who can throw multiple punches at multiple angles...nothing special..

however he learned new skills as he moved up in weight...

I truly believe he (Roach) may have something with Khan tho....
 
P03t said:
I feel you bruh...at the same time Pac was never a real cerebral fighter after Marquez was tagging him up dude didn't even try to attack the body :hithead:

dude just kept doing the same shit hoping to get a KO...Pac was a creation from great match making both by Roach & Arum...

when he destroyed Diaz that was typical Pac great athlete who can throw multiple punches at multiple angles...nothing special..

however he learned new skills as he moved up in weight...

I truly believe he (Roach) may have something with Khan tho....
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Your first sentence illustrates the point. Manny may not be a cerebral fighter which means Roach should be telling him how to get the upper hand. I don't remember any change in what Pac was doing, and more importantly, any instructions either... that would be fine usually when Pac is fucking guys up, but when Pac is in trouble... he needs something.
 
Alaskanredman said:
Your first sentence illustrates the point. Manny may not be a cerebral fighter which means Roach should be telling him how to get the upper hand. I don't remember any change in what Pac was doing, and more importantly, any instructions either... that would be fine usually when Pac is fucking guys up, but when Pac is in trouble... he needs something.
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Yep - a miracle, and he gets them in his favor.

But Freddie didn't tell Khan shit either though when Maidana was getting to his ass in them later rounds. I like Freddie, but he's had the benefit of working with some of the most physically talented guys in the game or dudes who were already great before they went with him like Toney or Oscar. Also Khan was already an olympic silver medalist with an extensive amateur background and some pro experience before Freddie got a hold of him and Amir's footwork and combo punching is still sloppy.
 
all they did was make pac like rocky balboa n manage his fights till he fought clubber lang n said u cant beat him!!!
 
Key here is, would Manny be where he is without Roach? Valid questions, seeing as, his biggest career wins have been with Roach, and while he got a gift, and there were a few suspect matchmaking efforts, overall I'd say he owes a lot to Roach. In addition, Khan did have fundamentals, but I believe he started putting it all together better with Roach... Now, the million dollar question is, is Roger Mayweather Overrated as a trainer :confused: Take ALL the natural gifts Floyd has, as well as his biggest asset which is his defense, which in the video of him kicking youngins ass, Sr. showed he had a great deal to do with his development, and how much of an impact has Roger REALLY had on Floyd's career and would Floyd be who he is without Roger?!?!

I believe Manny would be worse off without Roach than Floyd would be without Roger...
 
IT IS WHAT IT IS said:
Key here is, would Manny be where he is without Roach? Valid questions, seeing as, his biggest career wins have been with Roach, and while he got a gift, and there were a few suspect matchmaking efforts, overall I'd say he owes a lot to Roach. In addition, Khan did have fundamentals, but I believe he started putting it all together better with Roach... Now, the million dollar question is, is Roger Mayweather Overrated as a trainer :confused: Take ALL the natural gifts Floyd has, as well as his biggest asset which is his defense, which in the video of him kicking youngins ass, Sr. showed he had a great deal to do with his development, and how much of an impact has Roger REALLY had on Floyd's career and would Floyd be who he is without Roger?!?!

I believe Manny would be worse off without Roach than Floyd would be without Roger...
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Don't know... good point
 
I wouldn't say Freddie is overrated... BUT I would call a trainer's involvement in a fight OVERRATED... I believe that it's up to the FIGHTER more so than it is the trainer when it comes to winning and losing... :yes:

There's a lot that goes into a trainer and boxer relationship...
For example... Kevin Rooney and Mike Tyson... their synergy was AMAZING... and when they split... what happened??? Tyson felt off... BUT what other champ did Rooney produce???

I believe there are TWO types of trainers... There are teachers and there are strategists... Some trainers are better at teaching a guy a skill and some are better strategists when it comes to fights... For example, I think Roger Mayweather is an EXCELLENT teacher when it comes to teaching BUT is Roger REALLY a strategist when it comes to Floyd's fights???... I believe Emmanuel Steward was an EXCELLENT strategist when he was training fighters.

I think Nazim Richardson... Buddy McGirt are better trainers than Roger... BUT Roger has a SPECIAL GUY in Floyd... Nazim has a special guy in Bernard Hopkins... The point is... It's the fighters... Freddie is BOTH a good teacher and strategists... It's just can the fighter accomplish what their trainer is asking them to do...

I remember watching a Zab Juddah fight once(I think it was Baldomir vs Judah)... and his father, Yoel... who was his trainer at the time... was telling him to attack his opponent a certain way... BUT Zab never listened... and Zab lost... Who's that on??? Zab or his father??? I say Zab because he NEVER listened... Same thing with Kevin Kelley vs Prince Naseem... The trainer is telling Kev to go to the body more... BUT Kev WOULDN'T LISTEN... :smh: and he got CLOCK CLEANED...:yes:

Ultimately, It COMES DOWN TO THE FIGHTER... The trainer can do BUT so much... :yes:
 
vandamation said:
I wouldn't say Freddie is overrated... BUT I would call a trainer's involvement in a fight OVERRATED... I believe that it's up to the FIGHTER more so than it is the trainer when it comes to winning and losing... :yes:

There's a lot that goes into a trainer and boxer relationship...
For example... Kevin Rooney and Mike Tyson... their synergy was AMAZING... and when they split... what happened??? Tyson felt off... BUT what other champ did Rooney produce???

I believe there are TWO types of trainers... There are teachers and there are strategists... Some trainers are better at teaching a guy a skill and some are better strategists when it comes to fights... For example, I think Roger Mayweather is an EXCELLENT teacher when it comes to teaching BUT is Roger REALLY a strategist when it comes to Floyd's fights???... I believe Emmanuel Steward was an EXCELLENT strategist when he was training fighters.

I think Nazim Richardson... Buddy McGirt are better trainers than Roger... BUT Roger has a SPECIAL GUY in Floyd... Nazim has a special guy in Bernard Hopkins... The point is... It's the fighters... Freddie is BOTH a good teacher and strategists... It's just can the fighter accomplish what their trainer is asking them to do...

I remember watching a Zab Juddah fight once(I think it was Baldomir vs Judah)... and his father, Yoel... who was his trainer at the time... was telling him to attack his opponent a certain way... BUT Zab never listened... and Zab lost... Who's that on??? Zab or his father??? I say Zab because he NEVER listened... Same thing with Kevin Kelley vs Prince Naseem... The trainer is telling Kev to go to the body more... BUT Kev WOULDN'T LISTEN... :smh: and he got CLOCK CLEANED...:yes:

Ultimately, It COMES DOWN TO THE FIGHTER... The trainer can do BUT so much... :yes:
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I def hear what you're saying but Freddie never gives instructions. Where was he telling Pac to cut off the ring against Mosley, when did he tell Khan to go to the body religiously against Maidana? Where were his instructions when Oscar stopped using his effective jab against Floyd? That's our point. There never seem to be any plans or strategies in his corner. His predictions are always ko's.
 
2211 said:
Come on people, you can talk all you want about roach, but the reality is that he got a freak in his hands. When you have an athlete with the kind of tools that manny has, is not hard to see why he makes roach look like an ace.

Manny natural :confused:talents ( speed, conditioning..) are things that will make a lot of boxers separate them from the pack. but in reality his boxing skills are not what are making the difference. Look at PBF, same tools, 3 times the defense and very selective and accurate on the offense, game over.
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i dont think it is natural
 
merce77 said:
I def hear what you're saying but Freddie never gives instructions. Where was he telling Pac to cut off the ring against Mosley, when did he tell Khan to go to the body religiously against Maidana? Where were his instructions when Oscar stopped using his effective jab against Floyd? That's our point. There never seem to be any plans or strategies in his corner. His predictions are always ko's.
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The point is he is called the best out there, but if you're in trouble would you want Roach in your corner or Naazim, Stewart, McGirt, Atlas... even the spanish speaking motherfuckers would atleast be miming the shit you need to do.
 
merce77 said:
I def hear what you're saying but Freddie never gives instructions. Where was he telling Pac to cut off the ring against Mosley, when did he tell Khan to go to the body religiously against Maidana? Where were his instructions when Oscar stopped using his effective jab against Floyd? That's our point. There never seem to be any plans or strategies in his corner. His predictions are always ko's.
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:yes:

As a trainer, he's very good but he seems to be lacking as a coach/strategist.
 
merce77 said:
I def hear what you're saying but Freddie never gives instructions. Where was he telling Pac to cut off the ring against Mosley, when did he tell Khan to go to the body religiously against Maidana? Where were his instructions when Oscar stopped using his effective jab against Floyd? That's our point. There never seem to be any plans or strategies in his corner. His predictions are always ko's.
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Point taken... :yes: That's why I favor Nazim and Buddy... even Nacho after the Marquez fight... over Roach... BUT Roach is good... :yes:
 
vandamation said:
Point taken... :yes: That's why I favor Nazim and Buddy... even Nacho after the Marquez fight... over Roach... BUT Roach is good... :yes:
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I agree. If I were a veteran fighter like Oscar or James Toney, who already knew most of what any trainer could show them, I would have gotten with Freddie also, to get into top shape. But if I were a young fighter in great shape and needed to step up my game skill and strategy wise - I'd go with Nazim or Nacho. Buddy needs to show his fighters can win a big fight before I'd roll with him. Nacho is the best at teaching his fighters near perfect fundamentals though. Nazim is a master all around though. I think Stewart is a little overrated.
 
merce77 said:
I agree. If I were a veteran fighter like Oscar or James Toney, who already knew most of what any trainer could show them, I would have gotten with Freddie also, to get into top shape. But if I were a young fighter in great shape and needed to step up my game skill and strategy wise - I'd go with Nazim or Nacho. Buddy needs to show his fighters can win a big fight before I'd roll with him. Nacho is the best at teaching his fighters near perfect fundamentals though. Nazim is a master all around though. I think Stewart is a little overrated.
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Stewart needs guy who can fight his style and he hasn't shown me that he can make adjustments. But if I'm a fighter with a noticeable reach/height advantage, he's my guy.
Buddy loves his fighters and will not let them get killed in the ring and I appreciate that about him, especially when I watch other corners continue to send a guy in who's getting his head beat in and the ref is watching like he's got money on dude. If he ever got a real superstar with him, his stock as a trainer would go up like Roach's.
Nazim and Nacho are the best, period.


Your sig and the laughing crack me up every time. God, that shit funny to watch.
 
Upgrade Dave said:
Stewart needs guy who can fight his style and he hasn't shown me that he can make adjustments. But if I'm a fighter with a noticeable reach/height advantage, he's my guy.
Buddy loves his fighters and will not let them get killed in the ring and I appreciate that about him, especially when I watch other corners continue to send a guy in who's getting his head beat in and the ref is watching like he's got money on dude. If he ever got a real superstar with him, his stock as a trainer would go up like Roach's.
Nazim and Nacho are the best, period.


Your sig and the laughing crack me up every time. God, that shit funny to watch.
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True.

Next month it'll be Cotto getting his head kicked in and stopped again, so enjoy the laughter now. Unless your humor is dark like mine, in which case...:lol:
 
merce77 said:
True.

Next month it'll be Cotto getting his head kicked in and stopped again, so enjoy the laughter now. Unless your humor is dark like mine, in which case...:lol:
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Which it is so we're good come next month:lol:

Having watched Manny-JMM 3 in it's entirety, I put Naazim over Nacho. No way Richardson tells his fighter he's winning a close fight against a favorite like Pacquiao.
 
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