BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... 76ers win (AGAIN)

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

It's great and all to go to the playoffs every year, but unless you're winning, it's kind of like having a thousand solutions that don't work to a single problem.

the point that should be learned from this spectacular achievement (putting your team on your shoulders and getting it into the post season EVERY YEAR of your career) is that it take a SPECIAL kind of player to do that... tobe is FAR from being one of those special players, yet his role and contribution to the fakers championships are VASTLY overstated and completely erroneous...

For the record: Phil Jackson actually has more than enough rings for all of his fingers. He played basketball too (won two rings), and he coached the Bulls for six (rings) and the Lakers for three (rings).

we know. you misread or misunderstood what i wrote. it says coach jackson must hate tobe for still having empty fingers to put rings on.

I think it's safe to say that when he returns, Antoine Walker will have to step down his role a notch because Jason Williams will be looking to pass the ball to Shaq (who you already know is going to demand it).

antoine walker's decrease in minutes has already begun... the return of posey (who was always the slated starter) is the reason and has nothing to do with shaquille o'neal's demands... the ball MUST pass through shaquille o'neals hands specifically for 2 reasons:

1) he is the focal point of the D
2) he is a FANTASTIC facilitator

and specifically NOT for 1 reason:

1) because he demands the ball... IN TRUTH, shaquille's FGA have declined, not increased...

The impression I've gotten from you is that Dwyane Wade is better than Kobe, if not the same.

i will clarify my position. tobe is NOT as talented as dwyane wade. NOT even close. NOT even half. tobe's game is pure euro trash... tobe's game has the footprint, signature and stench of euro ball, but most americans haven't watched enough of either to notice the difference... tall guys and an orange bouncing ball looks the same to most casual fans/observers...

people not educated in logic would say the above paragraph is some sort of endorsement of dwyane wade and his game. it is NOT. i'm not a particular fan of dwyane wade's game, it's just GLARINGLY apparent that he is light years beyond tobe in terms of basketball maturity...

furthermore, it's foul when people compare or even mention tobe in the same breath with great SKILLED players of the recent past... george gervin, larry bird, dennis johnson, alex english, james worthy, and michael jordan should be insulted and injured... IMO modern hard-working american players with ACTUAL talent and an UNDERSTANDING of a TEAM game such as TD, donyell marshall, KG, pj brown, chauncey billups, shaquille o'neal, shane battier, dwyane wade, AI, rasheed wallace and ray allen should similarly take offense when such laughable comparisons are made...

with no disrespect intended towards their families, tobe's modern day equivalents are jason terry, peja stojakovic, derek anderson, dirk nowitski, stephen jackson, marko jaric and stephon marbury...

players such as baron davis (who is TREMENDOUSLY overrated), carmelo anthony, ricky davis, and steve francis are only a hair's width away from joining the dung pile...

as BASKETBALL players (not just shooters, but BASKETBALL players) go, there are a GREAT MANY that nightly demonstrate superior SKILLS to those that tobe may display on occasion... words like this probably seem inflammatory and ridiculous, but they are TRUE...

casual fans focus on how many points tobe scores, but i invite you to:

WATCH a game and see how many points he gives up on D...

WATCH a game and see how many points he scores on cherry picks and ask yourself if that REALLY is either talent or skill...

WATCH a game and see how many points he scores on run-outs and ask yourself if that REALLY is either talent or skill...

WATCH a game and see how many times he loses his assignment...

WATCH a game and see how many times he fails to rotate properly to help his teammates...

WATCH a game and see how many times tobe's waives his opponent into the lane, forcing his teammates to absorb a PF for his lack of perimeter defense...

WATCH a game and see how many times tobe picks up a loose ball FORCED BY A TEAMMATE's blocked shot or steal, and ask yourself if that REALLY is either talent or skill...

WATCH a game, paying close attention to tobe's piss poor shot selection, and see if it hijacks the team offense, kill his own team's momentum, and demoralizes his own teammates...

WATCH a game, track his missed FGA, TO and PF and see how many possessions (an opponent FGs and FTs) he personally costs his team...

and MOST IMPORTANTLY, WATCH a game, and see how tobe's teammates flourish and look at ease when he is not on the floor...

it's not something fans are accustomed to doing, especially with a beer in their hand and nachos in their laps... some players can't do it (mostly primadonna's who skip film session)... but good PGs do it every game (i learned it from coach cheeks in 1984), and coaches do it twice as much... scouts are well paid to do it, but many try to fake their way through it...

In that sense, Shaq still has a Kobe on his team in terms of skill. His role players have gotten a little bitter, but he ultimately has the same guard that he had before (the same one he had since he's been in the NBA).

for EACH of the factors listed above, i wholeheartedly disagree with your characterization that tobe and dwyane wade are in ANY sense the same guard.

thanks for the intelligent discussion.

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

the point that should be learned from this spectacular achievement (putting your team on your shoulders and getting it into the post season EVERY YEAR of your career) is that it take a SPECIAL kind of player to do that... tobe is FAR from being one of those special players, yet his role and contribution to the fakers championships are VASTLY overstated and completely erroneous...



we know. you misread or misunderstood what i wrote. it says coach jackson must hate tobe for still having empty fingers to put rings on.



antoine walker's decrease in minutes has already begun... the return of posey (who was always the slated starter) is the reason and has nothing to do with shaquille o'neal's demands... the ball MUST pass through shaquille o'neals hands specifically for 2 reasons:

1) he is the focal point of the D
2) he is a FANTASTIC facilitator

and specifically NOT for 1 reason:

1) because he demands the ball... IN TRUTH, shaquille's FGA have declined, not increased...



i will clarify my position. tobe is NOT as talented as dwyane wade. NOT even close. NOT even half. tobe's game is pure euro trash... tobe's game has the footprint, signature and stench of euro ball, but most americans haven't watched enough of either to notice the difference... tall guys and an orange bouncing ball looks the same to most casual fans/observers...

people not educated in logic would say the above paragraph is some sort of endorsement of dwyane wade and his game. it is NOT. i'm not a particular fan of dwyane wade's game, it's just GLARINGLY apparent that he is light years beyond tobe in terms of basketball maturity...

furthermore, it's foul when people compare or even mention tobe in the same breath with great SKILLED players of the recent past... george gervin, larry bird, dennis johnson, alex english, james worthy, and michael jordan should be insulted and injured... IMO modern hard-working american players with ACTUAL talent and an UNDERSTANDING of a TEAM game such as TD, donyell marshall, KG, pj brown, chauncey billups, shaquille o'neal, shane battier, dwyane wade, AI, rasheed wallace and ray allen should similarly take offense when such laughable comparisons are made...

with no disrespect intended towards their families, tobe's modern day equivalents are jason terry, peja stojakovic, derek anderson, dirk nowitski, stephen jackson, marko jaric and stephon marbury...

players such as baron davis (who is TREMENDOUSLY overrated), carmelo anthony, ricky davis, and steve francis are only a hair's width away from joining the dung pile...

as BASKETBALL players (not just shooters, but BASKETBALL players) go, there are a GREAT MANY that nightly demonstrate superior SKILLS to those that tobe may display on occasion... words like this probably seem inflammatory and ridiculous, but they are TRUE...

casual fans focus on how many points tobe scores, but i invite you to:

WATCH a game and see how many points he gives up on D...

WATCH a game and see how many points he scores on cherry picks and ask yourself if that REALLY is either talent or skill...

WATCH a game and see how many points he scores on run-outs and ask yourself if that REALLY is either talent or skill...

WATCH a game and see how many times he loses his assignment...

WATCH a game and see how many times he fails to rotate properly to help his teammates...

WATCH a game and see how many times tobe's waives his opponent into the lane, forcing his teammates to absorb a PF for his lack of perimeter defense...

WATCH a game and see how many times tobe picks up a loose ball FORCED BY A TEAMMATE's blocked shot or steal, and ask yourself if that REALLY is either talent or skill...

WATCH a game, paying close attention to tobe's piss poor shot selection, and see if it hijacks the team offense, kill his own team's momentum, and demoralizes his own teammates...

WATCH a game, track his missed FGA, TO and PF and see how many possessions (an opponent FGs and FTs) he personally costs his team...

and MOST IMPORTANTLY, WATCH a game, and see how tobe's teammates flourish and look at ease when he is not on the floor...

it's not something fans are accustomed to doing, especially with a beer in their hand and nachos in their laps... some players can't do it (mostly primadonna's who skip film session)... but good PGs do it every game (i learned it from coach cheeks in 1984), and coaches do it twice as much... scouts are well paid to do it, but many try to fake their way through it...



for EACH of the factors listed above, i wholeheartedly disagree with your characterization that tobe and dwyane wade are in ANY sense the same guard.

thanks for the intelligent discussion.

With all of those things to look for in a player's game, I'm pretty sure that you're bound to find every single one as often as you'd like. You should take a good look at Runawayslave's sig; it describes you to a T.

Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Allen Iverson (and others) are all exceptional players in the position they play; there's no refuting the figures. If Kobe was as sorry as you make him out to be, there wouldn't be such a large number of people acknowledging his abilities are a player.

What is it that you have against European players? This is disgressing from the main topic, but it is of interest to me. Why (assuming you do) do you think American players are better?

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

If Kobe was as sorry as you make him out to be, there wouldn't be such a large number of people acknowledging his abilities are a player.

why not? sheep follow the herd when they're not educated...

george bush won 2 elections... does that make qualify him as a good president? does that mean he was the best candidate?

With all of those things to look for in a player's game, I'm pretty sure that you're bound to find every single one as often as you'd like.

NOT at all true... i watch all 10 players on the floor using the same criteria, and tobe is FAR AND AWAY the only player who defeats his own team with great regularity...

again, this is proven by the fakers +/- when tobe is and is not on the floor...

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

You should take a good look at Runawayslave's sig; it describes you to a T.

i have noted RS' sig; admittedly, i don't care for kadir nelson's work as much as i did RS' sig of elise neal...

please enlighten me as to why "high noon" in part (or in whole) describes me "to a T"...

am i a deputy? a hired hand? i live in a dusty 1800's town?

or are you referring to the text in the sig? if so, too bad you don't understand it refers to people like tobe FANS who have no love for BASKETBALL, but only for the INDIVIDUAL...

WITHOUT EXCEPTION, all admiration for tobe's game is argued solely on a specific LOGICAL FALLACY: appeal to ignorance/argument from ignorance...

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

why not? sheep follow the herd when they're not educated...

george bush won 2 elections... does that make qualify him as a good president? does that mean he was the best candidate?



NOT at all true... i watch all 10 players on the floor using the same criteria, and tobe is FAR AND AWAY the only player who defeats his own team with great regularity...

again, this is proven by the fakers +/- when tobe is and is not on the floor...

You watch all the players on the court and yet, I don't see threads about even half of them*....what a coincidence.

I realize now that despite there being players (as well as coaches) that have gone on to become analysts that truly know the game(let's not forget, they did play it), their collective experience and wisdom is no match for yours. You are the definitive source on all things basketball, and I see that it was useless for me to try to argue that a player wasn't as bad as you were making him out to be.

I mean, even if the guy (Shaq) who should dislike him the most (and probably does) can respect him as a player (after all, they did win three championships together), I should still know better than to take his word before asking you about it.




*There was a recent exception (the thread made on Smush Parker), but somehow it turned into a Kobe bashing thread.

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

You watch all the players on the court and yet, I don't see threads about even half of them*....what a coincidence.

no coincidence at all... NONE of those players have erringly been heralded as "the 2nd best player in the league", "the best player since michael jordan", "1 of the top 50 players of all time", or are so profoundly misattributed skills and talents they don't possess...

I realize now that despite there being players (as well as coaches) that have gone on to become analysts that truly know the game (let's not forget, they did play it), their collective experience and wisdom is no match for yours. You are the definitive source on all things basketball, and I see that it was useless for me to try to argue that a player wasn't as bad as you were making him out to be.

how facile it is for persons such as yourself to casually dismiss the overwhelming detriment a cancer like tobe is to a ball club... have you forgotten last season's fakers SUCCESS? oh yeah, that's right, you can't count last season because ______________ (insert pitiful excuse here)....

mindless sheep go with the flow, assuming that shaquille o'neal, coach jackson, and tobe bryant contributed equal (or proportional) shares in the fakers' championship runs... the sad truth is that MOST people are not capable (lack the ability), or too lazy (it's easier to repeat stuart scott) to distill the ingredients that made the fakers successful... if they ever watched tape with an attentive eye, they'd realize that shaquille o'neal deserves MONUMENTAL praise, because with tobe on the fakers, it was like playing 6 on 4 for him...

I mean, even if the guy (Shaq) who should dislike him the most (and probably does) can respect him as a player (after all, they did win three championships together), I should still know better than to take his word before asking you about it.

and you presume to believe that shaquille o'neal respects tobe as a player WHY? what is it that makes you believe you can assume to know shaquille o'neal's "word" on the subject of tobe?

*There was a recent exception (the thread made on Smush Parker), but somehow it turned into a Kobe bashing thread.

the thread on smush parker ACCURATELY indicated how smush parker's performance in the 1st 4 games contributed largely to the fakers victories... it also ACCURATELY pointed out how tobe's recent primadonna performances have destroyed smush parker's game (and the fakers winning percentage)...

what a coincidence how the fakers were scoring in the 100s (and winning) BEFORE tobe started shooting 30+ FGAs... now the team is losing and dullards are scratching their heads wondering "WHY?"... could it be because 1 horrible player is unnecessarily taking FAR TOO MANY shots?

answer this question HAVOC: "why did tobe start shooting so much when they were already experiencing success distributing the FGAs in the 1st 4 games?"

 

[Spectrum]

Re: oh well...

Cranrab,

Still hating on Kobe I see? LOL.

The problem with your argument isn't the flaws you see in Kobe's game. Your assessment of his level of play is fairly accurate. The problem with your argument is the extreme nature of it. What you have done in a very common sense metaphor is claim: Because something isn't boiling hot: it must be cold. Because Kobe isn't a great as everyone thinks he is..he must be trash. You've made alot of references to logic..so you understand the implications of those types of arguments.

I will completely agree with you that Kobe's ability is overated. He, as everyone who has been compared, falls terrible short of the Jordan comparison. I certainly don't think the he deserves to be mentioned as one of the 50 greatest of all time. When you look at Jordan, Bird, Russel, Johnson, Thomas, etc...the players that exemplify what REAL basketball is...complet offensive and defensive packages, team leadership, basketball IQ, etc...Kobe falls well short. Though he may be an "exciting" player and does alot off of his athleticism...I think one of the criteria of the great players is: GROWTH. They were all talented;however, when you look at the progression of their games from their rookie seasons to even mid career(just to make it fair to Kobe)..you see progression in all aspects of their games...i.e..Bird became an excellent rebounder and passer...Jordan developed a more complete game(better outside shot, back to the basket, involving role players), Magic became a better defender, developed the hook shot, and selectively took over games, etc etc this is for all the great players. They came in as great players and many of them had outstanding rookie seasons. However, the astounding part of the game just from an individual perspective is looking at those players in their early careers and evaluating them mid career or towards the end. For instance, Jordan was hardly recognizable when comparing his super aggressive, slashing style in his early years to his later game where he still slashed but he was a threat from everywhere on the court...but more importantly got his teammates involved and selectively dominated at the end of games. People tend to believe that a Jordan was the best because of his athletic ability...Jordan was the best because his basketball IQ, tenacity, and work ethic were unparelled. Jordan was simply the smartest player on the court. He won games with his mind.

Kobe simply hasn't grown much as a player. I still see the same Kid who hasn't learned to let the game come to him. He still hasn't learned that getting your players involved early will open up the game for you later on. Maybe he will learn these things. Maybe he won't. Kobe is all atheticism without the discipline. He just hasn't seemed to master the IQ side of the game. His need to force the game through his hands is an achylees heel. I'm a Detroit Pistons fan. Although we were a good team the year we beat them 4-1: Anyone with any basketball IQ could see that Kobe sabotaged that series with his play. Shaq was still dominant and healthy..whenever they ran the offense through Shaq in that serious, the pistons had problem. As soon as Shaq was on the bench, they stopped running the offense through Shaq, or Kobe starting jacking up shots the team would fall apart. HONESTLY and I LOVE MY PISTONS..if you had replaced KOBE with an equally "talented player" who didn't need to have the spotlight...the Lakers could have challenged in that series had they just continued to hammer the ball through Shaq. You can't beat a defensive time like Detroit playing one on one aggressive offense..that is playing right into their strength. I couldn't understand how he couldn't recognize that. I'm not complaining because I am a Piston's fan;however, even as a Piston's fan is pissed me off to see one player fuck a team up so badly. Kobe isn't a thinking man's player. Players like Jordan, Bird, Thomas, etc beat you in more ways than just their athletic ability. These men understand the dynamics of the game. Kobe just hasn't proven that he is THAT caliber of a player.to be considered one of the greats.

But to call Kobe pure "euro trash" is going a bit overboard. Is Kobe overrated?..Yes. Does he have alot to learn if he will ever get another team to a championship? Is he one of the top players in the game now? Yes. Unfortunately I think the overall level of NBA play is at an all time low. I simply don't like the style of players...maybe I'm old school..but I liked players that played on both side of the ball and had some fundamentals. I think that if you put Kobe in the 80's or early -mid 90's..he would struggle to make an all star game with his style of play. He is not on the same level as a Tim Duncan..but he certainly on a higher level that Stephon Jackson and Jason Perry. This is where you show your obvious baised opinion. That's based on stats,talent, accomplishments(individual and team).

But of all the things you posted about Kobe..these are the things I hate about his game...it is a form of laziness that I don't think he will ever shake:

Cranrab wrote"
WATCH a game and see how many times he loses his assignment...

WATCH a game and see how many times he fails to rotate properly to help his teammates...

WATCH a game and see how many times tobe's waives his opponent into the lane, forcing his teammates to absorb a PF for his lack of perimeter defense..."

He does that shit alot. As a former player who prided himself on hustle and defense..i hate playing with a MOFO that expects the team to pick up for his laziness. When you go up and down that 50 greatest players list..none of the points, shooting or small forwards had that trait.

Now for the folks that say that Kobe is better than Wade. Anyone that would honestly take Kobe Bryant should be disqualified from having a serious conversation about basketball.

Wade is going to give you 5 less points on 10-15 less shots..and give you the same amount of rebounds and assists. However, he ONLY takes over a game if his shot is falling or if the offense needs a boost. He can effectively play WITH the team...not one player who just happens to have four other guys with the same jersey on. Wade is also a much more selective shooter..he takes better shots...even that is important. Taking fucked up shots not only hurts the offense but it hurts your defense..because forced shots out of rhythm often create fast breaks. Wade is humble....he can defer to other players. Kobe now sees how much more difficult it is to play without Shaq drawing the opposing team down into the paint. If I had the choice between Wade and Kobe on my squad..it's not even a second thought..i would take Wade with no extra thought.

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

I swear HNIC has sabotaged this board just as an excuse for people to donate money. I couldn't even post!

no coincidence at all... NONE of those players have erringly been heralded as "the 2nd best player in the league", "the best player since michael jordan", "1 of the top 50 players of all time", or are so profoundly misattributed skills and talents they don't possess...

Even though I'm a big fan, I can't agree with being one of the top players simply because there are others that did the same thing before him (and in some ways better), although I will say that he is an outstanding player.

and you presume to believe that shaquille o'neal respects tobe as a player WHY? what is it that makes you believe you can assume to know shaquille o'neal's "word" on the subject of tobe?

I saw it on an ESPN interview. This was one of those moments where the media decided to remind of us how much they didn't get along. Here's a link to the article where he's quoted to something of that effect.

I wish that I could have seen the Nets play the Lakers. I've heard that it was a good game. If ESPN has shown highlights, I've missed it. I'd love to have your assessment of that entire game (if you were able to see it). From what I'm seeing from the Lakers so far, even when Kobe isn't shooting outrageously, the rest of the team isn't doing that much better as far as scoring goes. It's like they're allergic to it or something.

As for why he shoots so much, I honestly don't know. Could it be that his teammates aren't putting up the expected numbers? Granted, he's always been shot happy, but if no one else on the team is trying to shoot, then why shouldn't he? It's almost as though you're saying that if given the opportunity, these other guys can win (as if they've somehow shown that in the past). Despite the promise that Chris Mihm, Smush Parker, and Lamar Odom* are displaying now, I'm still going to reserve hope for these players.

I would love to see how the Lakers would fare if KG managed to come to the team; it's not like he's going to have any more success in on the T'Wolves than he would on the Lakers.

Luke Walton appears to be back in time to help the team before the season gets well under way. Any predictions as to how he's going to help the Lakers (I'd hate for that one game to be all we're going to get)? Will anyone be losing playing time?

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

I was VERY disappointed by Kobe's performance last night. 9-33(27%) just isn't going to cut it. Andrew Bynum had an even better game, and so did Lamar Odom. I still say that the Lakers are going to get their stuff together. I want them to make the playoffs. It'll be messed up if they don't.

I was trying to recall an articlethat I'd read a while ago, and suddenly, I found it. It may as well have never been written because of the way things are now (the way things have changed so much).

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

I was trying to recall an articlethat I'd read a while ago, and suddenly, I found it. It may as well have never been written because of the way things are now (the way things have changed so much).

i remember the LIVE interview where these quotes were drawn from... YES, shaquille o'neal did utter these words in all seriousness (or should i say he delivered the words with a dead pan expression), but he didn't mean them at all...

shaquille o'neal is the first person who can tell you that he was ASKED to say these words publicly to stroke tobe's ego... part of a concentrated effort by the fakers to have the primadonna spotlight focused brightly on their project player supposedly full of unrealized potential... they mistakenly believed that if tobe felt he was the fat cat center ring attention getter, that he would blossom into the franchise player they'd hoped he could be... happy worker = productive worker, etc...

shaquille o'neal is the first person who can tell you that he played the role of the company man, and propped up tobe the straw man for too many seasons, waiting in vain for the boy to become a man, and the turd to become a teammate... so while shaquille o'neal and an assortment of veteran players continued to win championships, the mindless masses automatically assumed that it was BECAUSE of tobe, instead of IN SPITE OF him...

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

As for why he shoots so much, I honestly don't know. Could it be that his teammates aren't putting up the expected numbers? Granted, he's always been shot happy, but if no one else on the team is trying to shoot, then why shouldn't he? It's almost as though you're saying that if given the opportunity, these other guys can win (as if they've somehow shown that in the past).

they've demonstrated the ability to play winning basketball WITHOUT tobe on the floor...

if you're willing to learn, the unmistakable PROOF is in the +/- EVERY game...

this is from the fakers win over seattle...

before i begin, note that in this W, tobe had only 26 FGA, and 3 teammates had 10 or more FGAs... that is just about the correct distribution of FGAs, and guess what? the fakers scored over 100 pts...

so, here is the +/- from the 1st Q... tobe the hapless defensive hack, had to sit down quick (he played LESS THAN 4 MINUTES) with 2 PFs trying to guard ray allen...

so ask yourself, w/o their so-called superstar tobe, did the supposedly lesser fakers implode? lose the lead? NO. the TRUTH is that the REAL fakers players held the lead for the next 8+ minutes that followed...

(8:11) [LAL] Bryant Substitution replaced by McKie
(8:11) [SEA 4-9] Allen Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS)
(7:58) [LAL] Mihm Layup Shot: Missed
(7:58) [SEA] Team Rebound
(7:58) [LAL] Cook Foul: Loose Ball (1 PF)
(7:45) [SEA 7-9] Allen Jump Shot: Made (5 PTS) Assist: Ridnour (1 AST)
(7:28) [LAL] McKie Jump Shot: Missed
(7:26) [SEA] Allen Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(7:19) [SEA] R. Lewis Jump Shot: Missed
(7:18) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)
(7:10) [LAL] Cook Jump Shot: Missed
(7:08) [LAL] McKie Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)
(6:57) [LAL] Parker Driving Layup: Missed
(6:54) [SEA] Radmanovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(6:50) [SEA 9-9] Allen Driving Layup: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Radmanovic (1 AST)
(6:32) [LAL 11-9] Mihm Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Cook (2 AST)
(6:17) [LAL] Odom Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(6:17) [SEA] Petro Substitution replaced by Potapenko
(6:08) [SEA] Radmanovic Jump Shot: Missed
(6:06) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)
(5:54) [LAL 14-9] Odom Jump Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Parker (2 AST)
(5:29) [SEA] R. Lewis Jump Shot: Missed Block: Cook (1 BLK)
(5:27) [SEA] Team Rebound
(5:26) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(5:23) [SEA 11-14] R. Lewis Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Radmanovic (2 AST)
(5:07) [LAL 16-11] Odom Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS)
(4:56) [SEA] R. Lewis Jump Shot: Missed
(4:54) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(4:31) [LAL] Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(4:29) [SEA] Allen Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(4:21) [SEA] Radmanovic Jump Shot: Missed
(4:19) [LAL] Parker Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(3:58) [LAL] Cook Jump Shot: Missed
(3:56) [SEA] Potapenko Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(3:47) [SEA] Radmanovic Jump Shot: Missed
(3:45) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:0 Def:6)
(3:38) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed
(3:36) [SEA] Radmanovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(3:35) [SEA] Radmanovic Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: Parker (1 ST)
(3:31) [LAL 18-11] Parker Driving Layup: Made (5 PTS)
(3:18) [SEA 13-18] Ridnour Running Hook Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: Allen (2 AST
(2:51) [LAL 20-13] Cook Hook Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Odom (1 AST)
(2:31) [SEA] Ridnour Turnover: Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal: Parker (2 ST)
(2:26) [LAL] Parker Turnover: Lost Ball Out of Bounds (1 TO)
(2:26) [SEA] Team Timeout: Regular
(2:26) [SEA] R. Lewis Substitution replaced by Wilkins
(2:26) [LAL] Cook Substitution replaced by Profit
(2:13) [LAL] Mihm Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(2:13) [SEA 14-20] Potapenko Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS)
(2:13) [SEA] Radmanovic Turnover: Lane Violation (2 TO)
(1:58) [LAL] Profit Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO)
(1:44) [SEA] Ridnour Turnover: Traveling (2 TO)
(1:35) [LAL] Mihm Turnover: 3 Second Violation (1 TO)
(1:35) [SEA] Ridnour Substitution replaced by Cleaves
(1:17) [SEA] Allen Jump Shot: Missed
(1:15) [LAL] Parker Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(1:01) [LAL 22-14] Mihm Hook Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Profit (1 AST)
(0:49) [SEA 17-22] Radmanovic Jump Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Cleaves (1 AST)
(0:41) [SEA] Potapenko Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(0:30) [LAL] Mihm Jump Shot: Missed
(0:28) [SEA] Wilkins Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(0:15) [LAL] Mihm Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(0:15) [SEA 18-22] Wilkins Free Throw 1 of 2 (1 PTS)
(0:15) [LAL] Mihm Substitution replaced by Vujacic
(0:15) [SEA 19-22] Wilkins Free Throw 2 of 2 (2 PTS)
(0:05) [SEA] Wilkins Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(0:05) [LAL 23-19] Odom Free Throw 1 of 2 (9 PTS)
(0:05) [LAL 24-19] Odom Free Throw 2 of 2 (10 PTS)
(0:00) [SEA] Radmanovic Jump Shot: Missed
(0:00) [SEA] Team Rebound
(0:00) End Period

off topic, but does anyone expect seattle to do anything this season when they have so many trash euros on their active roster? i mean, look what tobe radmanovic did in that 8 minute span...

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

I wish that I could have seen the Nets play the Lakers. I've heard that it was a good game. If ESPN has shown highlights, I've missed it. I'd love to have your assessment of that entire game (if you were able to see it). From what I'm seeing from the Lakers so far, even when Kobe isn't shooting outrageously, the rest of the team isn't doing that much better as far as scoring goes. It's like they're allergic to it or something.

i watched it all but the OT (went out)... tobe managed to get inside the head of VC... thought vince had been taught better than that, but he took the bait...

overall, look at what happened in contrast to the seattle W. tobe jacked up 36 FGAs, only 2 other fakers managed 10 or more FGAs and the fakers LOSE. by NO coincidence, the fakers scored UNDER 100 pts (even with the added time of OT)... what a terrific effect tobe has on a team...

the +/- i'm going to discuss in this post is from the final 6 minutes of the game... THIS is the time when the REAL players are supposed to step up, right? the CLUTCH players, right? well, to sweeten the deal, let's see what tobe did at this time WITH THE ENTIRE NETS STARTING FRONTCOURT (collins, krstic, jefferson) ON THE BENCH...

(1:00) [NJN] Collins Foul: Personal (6 PF)
(1:00) [NJN] Collins Substitution replaced by M. Jackson
(1:00) [LAL] Cook Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(1:00) [LAL] Team Rebound
(1:00) [LAL] Cook Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(0:59) [NJN] Kidd Rebound (Off:1 Def:7)
(0:59) [NJN] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:43) [NJN] Carter Jump Shot: Missed
(0:41) [NJN] M. Jackson Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(0:35) [NJN] Kidd Jump Shot: Missed
(0:35) [NJN] Team Rebound
(0:35) [NJN] Team Turnover: 24 Second Violation ( TO)
(0:35) [LAL] Team Timeout: Short
(0:28) [LAL 84-87] Bryant Jump Shot: Made (40 PTS) Assist: Walton (4 AST)
(0:17) [LAL] Bryant Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:17) [NJN] M. Jackson Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(0:17) [NJN] Team Rebound
(0:17) [NJN 88-84] M. Jackson Free Throw 2 of 2 (1 PTS)
(0:17) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:17) [NJN] M. Jackson Substitution replaced by McInnis
(0:13) [LAL 87-88] Bryant Jump Shot: Made (43 PTS) Assist: Odom (5 AST)
(0:13) [NJN] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:12) [LAL] Vujacic Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:12) [NJN 89-87] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 (28 PTS)
(0:12) [NJN 90-87] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (29 PTS)
(0:12) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:12) [NJN] Kidd Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(0:12) [LAL 88-90] Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (44 PTS)
(0:12) [NJN] McInnis Substitution replaced by M. Jackson
(0:12) [LAL 89-90] Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (45 PTS)
(0:12) [NJN] Team Timeout: Short
(0:12) [NJN] M. Jackson Substitution replaced by McInnis
(0:12) [LAL] Walton Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:12) [NJN] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(0:12) [NJN] Team Rebound
(0:12) [NJN 91-89] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (30 PTS)
(0:02) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed
(0:01) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:3 Def:1)
(0:00) [LAL 91-91] Cook Jump Shot: Made (10 PTS)
(0:00) [TBD] Instant Replay: Support Ruling
(0:00) End Period

tobe hit 2 big 3 pt FGs, but the TRUTH is that marc jackson and jason kidd choked on 2 FTs, either of which could have sealed the W. note that it was a 'lesser' player, brian cook, that secured the rebound and got the put back...

let's continue and see what mr. super clutch did in the OT...

1st Overtime
(5:00) Bynum Jump Ball Bynum vs Robinson
(4:40) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(4:38) [NJN] Carter Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)
(4:34) [LAL] Bryant Foul: Shooting (5 PF)
(4:34) [NJN 92-91] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 (31 PTS)
(4:34) [LAL] Bynum Substitution replaced by Cook
(4:34) [NJN 93-91] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (32 PTS)
(4:11) [LAL] Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(4:09) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:4 Def:6)
(3:59) [LAL 93-93] Cook Turnaround Jump: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Walton (5 AST)
(3:39) [NJN 95-93] Vaughn Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Kidd (11 AST)
(3:29) [NJN] Kidd Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(3:17) [LAL] Odom Turnover: Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal: Vaughn (1 ST)
(3:06) [LAL] Parker Foul: Shooting (4 PF)
(3:06) [NJN] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(3:06) [NJN] Team Rebound
(3:06) [NJN 96-93] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (33 PTS)
(2:53) [NJN] McInnis Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(2:42) [LAL] Walton Turnaround Jump: Missed
(2:40) [NJN] Carter Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(2:23) [NJN 98-93] McInnis Running Jump: Made (10 PTS) Assist: Kidd (12 AST)
(2:06) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(2:03) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:4 Def:1)
(2:00) [NJN] Vaughn Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(1:49) [LAL] Cook Layup Shot: Missed
(1:49) [LAL 95-98] Cook Tip Shot: Made (14 PTS)
(1:49) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:5 Def:1)
(1:33) [NJN] Kidd Layup Shot: Missed
(1:32) [NJN] Robinson Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)
(1:29) [NJN 100-95] Robinson Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS)
(1:19) [LAL] Walton Foul: Offensive (5 PF)
(1:19) [LAL] Walton Turnover: Foul (2 TO)
(1:14) [NJN 102-95] Kidd Driving Layup: Made (35 PTS) Assist: Robinson (1 AST)
(1:11) [NJN] Kidd Foul: Personal (5 PF)
(1:11) [LAL] Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(1:11) [LAL] Team Rebound
(1:11) [LAL 96-102] Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (46 PTS)
(0:48) [NJN] McInnis Jump Shot: Missed
(0:45) [LAL] Walton Rebound (Off:3 Def:4)
(0:36) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed
(0:34) [NJN] McInnis Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(0:11) [NJN] Kidd Jump Shot: Missed
(0:10) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:5 Def:2)
(0:09) [LAL] Bryant Turnover: Traveling (5 TO)
(0:00) End Period

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

I was VERY disappointed by Kobe's performance last night. 9-33(27%) just isn't going to cut it.

i watched the entire game last night... both teams were DISGUSTING to watch... with tobe on the fakers, and the spurs littered with trash euros ginobili, parker, nesterovic, and oberto, the game was sloppy and a mockery of the game...

but sticking to the topic at hand, by now you should've been able to derive the outcome from the formula... tobe secretes 33 FGAs, only 1 other faker player with more than 10 FGAs, fakers LOSE. broken record? fakers fail to reach the 100 point mark... AGAIN, NOT A COINCIDENCE... hmmm, shouldn't a wisened veteran like tobe be able to figure out that he's sabotaging the team? or does tobe's infantile, self-centered ego prevent him from seeing the painfully obvious?

since you watched, you know that the spurs blew the fakers out early, and put them to sleep in the 1st Q... the spurs body language indicated (to me, at least) that they really weren't playing anywhere near SERIOUS...

let's take a look at the +/- of the 1st Q, where the fakers' doom was already sealed... you'll learn here that ALL MISSED FGAs should not be considered equal... more specifically, tobe's MISSED FGAs MORE OFTEN THAN NOT lead to opponent scores (either made FGs or made FTs)... NO OTHER player has that putrid distinction... tobe ALONE lays claim to that one, and that is why being on his team is like playing 6 on 4... for PROOF:

1st Period
(12:00) Nesterovic Jump Ball Nesterovic vs Mihm
(11:44) [LAL 2-0] Mihm Jump Hook: Made (2 PTS)
(11:26) [SAN 2-2] T. Parker Reverse Layup: Made (2 PTS)
(11:06) [LAL] Bryant Fade Away: Missed
(11:03) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(10:47) [SAN 4-2] Bowen Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(10:33) [LAL] Cook Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: Nesterovic (1 ST)
(10:27) [SAN 6-2] T. Parker Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(10:11) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(10:08) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(9:55) [SAN] Nesterovic Jump Hook: Missed
(9:54) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(9:52) [SAN 8-2] Nesterovic Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(9:25) [LAL] Cook Jump Shot: Missed
(9:23) [SAN] Bowen Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(9:14) [SAN 10-2] Duncan Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (1 AST)
(8:57) [LAL 4-10] Mihm Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Cook (1 AST)
(8:42) [SAN] T. Parker Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: Bryant (1 ST)
(8:37) [LAL 6-10] Bryant Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(8:23) [SAN 12-6] Nesterovic Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Duncan (1 AST)
(8:14) [LAL 8-12] S. Parker Running Jump: Made (2 PTS)
(7:58) [SAN 14-8] Nesterovic Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Duncan (2 AST)
(7:47) [LAL] S. Parker Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: T. Parker (1 ST)
(7:41) [SAN 16-8] Ginobili Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (2 AST)
(7:30) [SAN] Nesterovic Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(7:30) [LAL] Mihm Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(7:30) [LAL] Team Rebound
(7:30) [LAL] Mihm Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(7:29) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(7:12) [SAN] T. Parker Turnover: Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal: Cook (1 ST)
(7:08) [LAL] Bryant Layup Shot: Missed Block: Ginobili (1 BLK)
(7:05) [SAN] Bowen Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(7:04) [SAN] T. Parker Driving Layup: Missed Block: S. Parker (1 BLK)
(7:02) [SAN] Ginobili Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(7:01) [SAN 18-8] Ginobili Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(6:33) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(6:31) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)
(6:24) [SAN 21-8] Ginobili Jump Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Duncan (3 AST)
(6:10) [LAL] Cook Jump Shot: Missed
(6:08) [SAN] Ginobili Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(6:00) [SAN] Team Timeout: Regular
(6:00) [SAN] Ginobili Substitution replaced by Finley
(5:50) [SAN] Duncan Jump Shot: Missed
(5:48) [LAL] S. Parker Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(5:36) [LAL] S. Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(5:35) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)
(5:35) [LAL] S. Parker Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(5:35) [SAN] Nesterovic Substitution replaced by Horry
(5:21) [SAN 23-8] Finley Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (3 AST)
(5:01) [LAL] Mihm Jump Shot: Missed
(5:00) [SAN] Team Rebound
(5:00) [LAL] Cook Substitution replaced by Walton
(4:39) [SAN 25-8] Duncan Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (4 AST)
(4:21) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(4:19) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)
(4:18) [LAL] Odom Layup Shot: Missed
(4:16) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(4:12) [SAN] Duncan Turnover: Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal: Bryant (2 ST)
(4:03) [LAL 10-25] Odom Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: S. Parker (1 AST)
(3:48) [LAL] S. Parker Foul: Personal (2 PF)
(3:48) [LAL] S. Parker Substitution replaced by Vujacic
(3:41) [SAN] Finley Jump Shot: Missed
(3:40) [LAL] Team Rebound
(3:32) [LAL] Mihm Jump Shot: Missed
(3:30) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:6)
(3:20) [SAN 27-10] Bowen Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(3:04) [LAL] Odom Layup Shot: Missed
(3:02) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:7)
(2:57) [LAL] Walton Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(2:57) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(2:57) [SAN] Duncan Substitution replaced by Nesterovic
(2:57) [LAL] Mihm Substitution replaced by Cook
(2:57) [SAN] T. Parker Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(2:57) [SAN] Team Rebound
(2:57) [SAN] T. Parker Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(2:56) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(2:42) [LAL] Vujacic Jump Shot: Missed
(2:40) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(2:26) [SAN] Horry Jump Shot: Missed
(2:24) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:2 Def:2)
(2:20) [SAN] Bowen Jump Shot: Missed
(2:19) [SAN] Horry Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)
(2:19) [LAL] Walton Foul: Loose Ball (2 PF)
(2:19) [SAN] Bowen Substitution replaced by Ginobili
(2:10) [SAN] T. Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(2:08) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(1:59) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed Block: Nesterovic (1 BLK)
(1:57) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)
(1:56) [LAL 12-27] Odom Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(1:56) [LAL] Team Violation: Delay of Game
(1:49) [LAL] Cook Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(1:49) [SAN 28-12] T. Parker Free Throw 1 of 2 (5 PTS)
(1:49) [SAN 29-12] T. Parker Free Throw 2 of 2 (6 PTS)
(1:34) [LAL] Bryant Turnover: Lost Ball Possession (1 TO)

so in less than 1 Q, tobe's usual piss poor play put his team behind and 1 foot in the grave... remember, i've only highlighted tobe's missed FGAs which turned into spurs points... this doesn't even begin to enumerate the FGs that the spurs scored due to tobe's complete lack of defensive ability...

 

[xfactor]

Re: oh well...

off topic, but does anyone expect seattle to do anything this season when they have so many trash euros on their active roster? i mean, look what tobe radmanovic did in that 8 minute span...

I dont even think they will finish higher than 41-41 b/c

1) Bob Weiss is in over his head trying to be a head coach (Havent been impressed with him since his Atlanta Days)

2) I think Rashard Lewis is one of the more overrated players in the NBA. Dude is 6-10 but only gets 5 rebs a game

3) As you mentioned... Radmonovic is a disgrace. This is the same dude complaining about gettin mins but when he gets in the game he doesnt produce (Ruben Patterson-esque right there) and he's supposed to be their 3rd best player


I think Ronald Murray is underutilized and should have a more prominent role in the teams' offensive scheme. Plus this team dont play any D at all. (But doesnt have the firepower on O to compete like PHX did last year) If the shots aint fallin', they aint winnin'.

 

[cranrab]

it's sickening...

i mean, the supersonics got radmanovic, petro and potapenko all getting between 1 and 2 quarters of play... WTF?

i'm not going to commit to an opinion on rashard lewis just yet, but my feeling is that he shouldn't be taking more FGAs than ray allen on a nightly basis...

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

i watched the entire game last night... both teams were DISGUSTING to watch... with tobe on the fakers, and the spurs littered with trash euros ginobili, parker, nesterovic, and oberto, the game was sloppy and a mockery of the game...

but sticking to the topic at hand, by now you should've been able to derive the outcome from the formula... tobe secretes 33 FGAs, only 1 other faker player with more than 10 FGAs, fakers LOSE. broken record? fakers fail to reach the 100 point mark... AGAIN, NOT A COINCIDENCE... hmmm, shouldn't a wisened veteran like tobe be able to figure out that he's sabotaging the team? or does tobe's infantile, self-centered ego prevent him from seeing the painfully obvious?

since you watched, you know that the spurs blew the fakers out early, and put them to sleep in the 1st Q... the spurs body language indicated (to me, at least) that they really weren't playing anywhere near SERIOUS...

let's take a look at the +/- of the 1st Q, where the fakers' doom was already sealed... you'll learn here that ALL MISSED FGAs should not be considered equal... more specifically, tobe's MISSED FGAs MORE OFTEN THAN NOT lead to opponent scores (either made FGs or made FTs)... NO OTHER player has that putrid distinction... tobe ALONE lays claim to that one, and that is why being on his team is like playing 6 on 4... for PROOF:

1st Period
(12:00) Nesterovic Jump Ball Nesterovic vs Mihm
(11:44) [LAL 2-0] Mihm Jump Hook: Made (2 PTS)
(11:26) [SAN 2-2] T. Parker Reverse Layup: Made (2 PTS)
(11:06) [LAL] Bryant Fade Away: Missed
(11:03) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(10:47) [SAN 4-2] Bowen Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(10:33) [LAL] Cook Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: Nesterovic (1 ST)
(10:27) [SAN 6-2] T. Parker Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(10:11) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(10:08) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(9:55) [SAN] Nesterovic Jump Hook: Missed
(9:54) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(9:52) [SAN 8-2] Nesterovic Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(9:25) [LAL] Cook Jump Shot: Missed
(9:23) [SAN] Bowen Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(9:14) [SAN 10-2] Duncan Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (1 AST) (8:57) [LAL 4-10] Mihm Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Cook (1 AST)
(8:42) [SAN] T. Parker Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: Bryant (1 ST)
(8:37) [LAL 6-10] Bryant Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(8:23) [SAN 12-6] Nesterovic Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Duncan (1 AST)
(8:14) [LAL 8-12] S. Parker Running Jump: Made (2 PTS)
(7:58) [SAN 14-8] Nesterovic Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Duncan (2 AST)
(7:47) [LAL] S. Parker Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: T. Parker (1 ST)
(7:41) [SAN 16-8] Ginobili Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (2 AST)
(7:30) [SAN] Nesterovic Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(7:30) [LAL] Mihm Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(7:30) [LAL] Team Rebound
(7:30) [LAL] Mihm Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(7:29) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(7:12) [SAN] T. Parker Turnover: Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal: Cook (1 ST)
(7:08) [LAL] Bryant Layup Shot: Missed Block: Ginobili (1 BLK)
(7:05) [SAN] Bowen Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(7:04) [SAN] T. Parker Driving Layup: Missed Block: S. Parker (1 BLK)
(7:02) [SAN] Ginobili Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(7:01) [SAN 18-8] Ginobili Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(6:33) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(6:31) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:3)
(6:24) [SAN 21-8] Ginobili Jump Shot: Made (7 PTS) Assist: Duncan (3 AST)
(6:10) [LAL] Cook Jump Shot: Missed
(6:08) [SAN] Ginobili Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(6:00) [SAN] Team Timeout: Regular
(6:00) [SAN] Ginobili Substitution replaced by Finley
(5:50) [SAN] Duncan Jump Shot: Missed
(5:48) [LAL] S. Parker Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(5:36) [LAL] S. Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(5:35) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)
(5:35) [LAL] S. Parker Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(5:35) [SAN] Nesterovic Substitution replaced by Horry
(5:21) [SAN 23-8] Finley Jump Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (3 AST)
(5:01) [LAL] Mihm Jump Shot: Missed
(5:00) [SAN] Team Rebound
(5:00) [LAL] Cook Substitution replaced by Walton
(4:39) [SAN 25-8] Duncan Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: T. Parker (4 AST)
(4:21) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(4:19) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)
(4:18) [LAL] Odom Layup Shot: Missed
(4:16) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(4:12) [SAN] Duncan Turnover: Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal: Bryant (2 ST)
(4:03) [LAL 10-25] Odom Layup Shot: Made (2 PTS) Assist: S. Parker (1 AST)
(3:48) [LAL] S. Parker Foul: Personal (2 PF)
(3:48) [LAL] S. Parker Substitution replaced by Vujacic
(3:41) [SAN] Finley Jump Shot: Missed
(3:40) [LAL] Team Rebound
(3:32) [LAL] Mihm Jump Shot: Missed
(3:30) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:6)
(3:20) [SAN 27-10] Bowen Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(3:04) [LAL] Odom Layup Shot: Missed
(3:02) [SAN] Duncan Rebound (Off:0 Def:7)
(2:57) [LAL] Walton Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(2:57) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(2:57) [SAN] Duncan Substitution replaced by Nesterovic
(2:57) [LAL] Mihm Substitution replaced by Cook
(2:57) [SAN] T. Parker Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(2:57) [SAN] Team Rebound
(2:57) [SAN] T. Parker Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(2:56) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:1 Def:1)
(2:42) [LAL] Vujacic Jump Shot: Missed
(2:40) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(2:26) [SAN] Horry Jump Shot: Missed
(2:24) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:2 Def:2)
(2:20) [SAN] Bowen Jump Shot: Missed
(2:19) [SAN] Horry Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)
(2:19) [LAL] Walton Foul: Loose Ball (2 PF)
(2:19) [SAN] Bowen Substitution replaced by Ginobili
(2:10) [SAN] T. Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(2:08) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(1:59) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed Block: Nesterovic (1 BLK)
(1:57) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)
(1:56) [LAL 12-27] Odom Layup Shot: Made (4 PTS)
(1:56) [LAL] Team Violation: Delay of Game
(1:49) [LAL] Cook Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(1:49) [SAN 28-12] T. Parker Free Throw 1 of 2 (5 PTS)
(1:49) [SAN 29-12] T. Parker Free Throw 2 of 2 (6 PTS)
(1:34) [LAL] Bryant Turnover: Lost Ball Possession (1 TO)

so in less than 1 Q, tobe's usual piss poor play put his team behind and 1 foot in the grave... remember, i've only highlighted tobe's missed FGAs which turned into spurs points... this doesn't even begin to enumerate the FGs that the spurs scored due to tobe's complete lack of defensive ability...

You can't be serious. All you've shown me here is that the Lakers aren't very good when it comes to rebounding, and that missed rebounds provide opportunities for fast breaks and free baskets. I'll be the first to admit (besides the man himself) that Kobe Bryant forces shots. As far as team players go, don't expect him to make the players around him any better than they show themselves capable of being. As far as one basketball players go, you've got an outstanding individual (yeah, yeah, yeah, basketball's a team sport). I want to add something about defense. Was Kobe not guarding Vince Carter when the Lakers played the Nets? Didn't Vince only get 10 points? What about Ray Allen? I know Bryant isn't the best defender, but he's far from being the worst.

(2:42) [LAL] Vujacic Jump Shot: Missed
(2:40) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(2:26) [SAN] Horry Jump Shot: Missed
(2:24) [SAN] Nesterovic Rebound (Off:2 Def:2)
(2:20) [SAN] Bowen Jump Shot: Missed
(2:19) [SAN] Horry Rebound (Off:1 Def:0)​

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

i watched it all but the OT (went out)... tobe managed to get inside the head of VC... thought vince had been taught better than that, but he took the bait...

overall, look at what happened in contrast to the seattle W. tobe jacked up 36 FGAs, only 2 other fakers managed 10 or more FGAs and the fakers LOSE. by NO coincidence, the fakers scored UNDER 100 pts (even with the added time of OT)... what a terrific effect tobe has on a team...

the +/- i'm going to discuss in this post is from the final 6 minutes of the game... THIS is the time when the REAL players are supposed to step up, right? the CLUTCH players, right? well, to sweeten the deal, let's see what tobe did at this time WITH THE ENTIRE NETS STARTING FRONTCOURT (collins, krstic, jefferson) ON THE BENCH...

(1:00) [NJN] Collins Foul: Personal (6 PF)
(1:00) [NJN] Collins Substitution replaced by M. Jackson
(1:00) [LAL] Cook Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(1:00) [LAL] Team Rebound
(1:00) [LAL] Cook Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(0:59) [NJN] Kidd Rebound (Off:1 Def:7)
(0:59) [NJN] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:43) [NJN] Carter Jump Shot: Missed
(0:41) [NJN] M. Jackson Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(0:35) [NJN] Kidd Jump Shot: Missed
(0:35) [NJN] Team Rebound
(0:35) [NJN] Team Turnover: 24 Second Violation ( TO)
(0:35) [LAL] Team Timeout: Short
(0:28) [LAL 84-87] Bryant Jump Shot: Made (40 PTS) Assist: Walton (4 AST)
(0:17) [LAL] Bryant Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:17) [NJN] M. Jackson Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(0:17) [NJN] Team Rebound
(0:17) [NJN 88-84] M. Jackson Free Throw 2 of 2 (1 PTS)
(0:17) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:17) [NJN] M. Jackson Substitution replaced by McInnis
(0:13) [LAL 87-88] Bryant Jump Shot: Made (43 PTS) Assist: Odom (5 AST)
(0:13) [NJN] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:12) [LAL] Vujacic Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:12) [NJN 89-87] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 (28 PTS)
(0:12) [NJN 90-87] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (29 PTS)
(0:12) [LAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:12) [NJN] Kidd Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(0:12) [LAL 88-90] Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (44 PTS)
(0:12) [NJN] McInnis Substitution replaced by M. Jackson
(0:12) [LAL 89-90] Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (45 PTS)
(0:12) [NJN] Team Timeout: Short
(0:12) [NJN] M. Jackson Substitution replaced by McInnis
(0:12) [LAL] Walton Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:12) [NJN] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(0:12) [NJN] Team Rebound
(0:12) [NJN 91-89] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (30 PTS)
(0:02) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed
(0:01) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:3 Def:1)
(0:00) [LAL 91-91] Cook Jump Shot: Made (10 PTS)
(0:00) [TBD] Instant Replay: Support Ruling
(0:00) End Period

tobe hit 2 big 3 pt FGs, but the TRUTH is that marc jackson and jason kidd choked on 2 FTs, either of which could have sealed the W. note that it was a 'lesser' player, brian cook, that secured the rebound and got the put back...

let's continue and see what mr. super clutch did in the OT...

1st Overtime
(5:00) Bynum Jump Ball Bynum vs Robinson
(4:40) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(4:38) [NJN] Carter Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)
(4:34) [LAL] Bryant Foul: Shooting (5 PF)
(4:34) [NJN 92-91] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 (31 PTS)
(4:34) [LAL] Bynum Substitution replaced by Cook
(4:34) [NJN 93-91] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (32 PTS)
(4:11) [LAL] Parker Jump Shot: Missed
(4:09) [LAL] Odom Rebound (Off:4 Def:6)
(3:59) [LAL 93-93] Cook Turnaround Jump: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Walton (5 AST)
(3:39) [NJN 95-93] Vaughn Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Kidd (11 AST)
(3:29) [NJN] Kidd Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(3:17) [LAL] Odom Turnover: Lost Ball (2 TO) Steal: Vaughn (1 ST)
(3:06) [LAL] Parker Foul: Shooting (4 PF)
(3:06) [NJN] Kidd Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(3:06) [NJN] Team Rebound
(3:06) [NJN 96-93] Kidd Free Throw 2 of 2 (33 PTS)
(2:53) [NJN] McInnis Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(2:42) [LAL] Walton Turnaround Jump: Missed
(2:40) [NJN] Carter Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(2:23) [NJN 98-93] McInnis Running Jump: Made (10 PTS) Assist: Kidd (12 AST)
(2:06) [LAL] Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
(2:03) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:4 Def:1)
(2:00) [NJN] Vaughn Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(1:49) [LAL] Cook Layup Shot: Missed
(1:49) [LAL 95-98] Cook Tip Shot: Made (14 PTS)
(1:49) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:5 Def:1)
(1:33) [NJN] Kidd Layup Shot: Missed
(1:32) [NJN] Robinson Rebound (Off:2 Def:1)
(1:29) [NJN 100-95] Robinson Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS)
(1:19) [LAL] Walton Foul: Offensive (5 PF)
(1:19) [LAL] Walton Turnover: Foul (2 TO)
(1:14) [NJN 102-95] Kidd Driving Layup: Made (35 PTS) Assist: Robinson (1 AST)
(1:11) [NJN] Kidd Foul: Personal (5 PF)
(1:11) [LAL] Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(1:11) [LAL] Team Rebound
(1:11) [LAL 96-102] Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (46 PTS)
(0:48) [NJN] McInnis Jump Shot: Missed
(0:45) [LAL] Walton Rebound (Off:3 Def:4)
(0:36) [LAL] Odom Jump Shot: Missed
(0:34) [NJN] McInnis Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(0:11) [NJN] Kidd Jump Shot: Missed
(0:10) [LAL] Cook Rebound (Off:5 Def:2)
(0:09) [LAL] Bryant Turnover: Traveling (5 TO)
(0:00) End Period

You've got to be kidding me. Anytime a player scores 46 points in a game and the coach doesn't take him out, then there must be a reason for him to continue playing. As far as "mr. super clutch" goes (funny nickname), he took two shots in OT. Most likely he was guarded by two people. That frees someone up. At what point are his teammates going to start asserting themselves in the game more?

 

[Havoc]

Re: oh well...

i remember the LIVE interview where these quotes were drawn from... YES, shaquille o'neal did utter these words in all seriousness (or should i say he delivered the words with a dead pan expression), but he didn't mean them at all...

shaquille o'neal is the first person who can tell you that he was ASKED to say these words publicly to stroke tobe's ego... part of a concentrated effort by the fakers to have the primadonna spotlight focused brightly on their project player supposedly full of unrealized potential... they mistakenly believed that if tobe felt he was the fat cat center ring attention getter, that he would blossom into the franchise player they'd hoped he could be... happy worker = productive worker, etc...

shaquille o'neal is the first person who can tell you that he played the role of the company man, and propped up tobe the straw man for too many seasons, waiting in vain for the boy to become a man, and the turd to become a teammate... so while shaquille o'neal and an assortment of veteran players continued to win championships, the mindless masses automatically assumed that it was BECAUSE of tobe, instead of IN SPITE OF him...

Shaq
CHAMPIONSHIPS W/Kobe Bryant: 3
CHAMPIONSHIPS W/O Kobe Bryant: 0


Oh course Shaq said those words like he didn't mean any of them. People say things they don't mean all the time on different occasions. No big deal. He was only trying to make the new guy on the team feel better after having a decent night. It's not like he contributed anything positive to the team. Especially winning. He didn't do anything as far as that goes.

I'm just not buying into the whole "he wanted all the attention for himself while I tried to play good team ball while leading this team down the right path" act. Are you trying to tell me that of two of the biggest names in today's game, only one of them has an ego that needs stroking? Only one of them is concerned with winning?

 

[cranrab]

Re: oh well...

You can't be serious.

dead serious. you approach this as a single game example. i've told you NUMEROUS times, and regular readers of the SPORTS board can tell you that for YEARS i've been providing unbiased, unedited PROOF.

POINT BLANK, tobe takes exceedingly POOR FGAs that leave the team in vulnerable positions. REPEATEDLY. FOR YEARS. take away those FGAs (actually TOs) and their resultant points, and the fakers win games comfortably... no need for dramatic comebacks and 4th quarter rallies if you're already playing SMART from jump...

As far as team players go, don't expect him to make the players around him any better than they show themselves capable of being.

i don't expect tobe to make players around him better... simply stated, HE CAN'T. TOBE's INCOMPETENT in that regard. or what conclusion would you have rational observers believe based on the past and current seasons? aren't the 70+ games without the safety net of playing with shaquille o'neal ample time? or should we have convenient bouts of amnesia to hide the pitiful TRUTH that tobe's just a trigger-happy loser?

I want to add something about defense. Was Kobe not guarding Vince Carter when the Lakers played the Nets? Didn't Vince only get 10 points?

yes, tobe did guard VC on several occasions that game... yes, VC only scored 10 pts... SO WHAT? last i checked, NJ got the W... WHO CARES how many points VC got...

put things in their proper perspective, H... the nets were on a 5 game western road swing...

the 1st night against the warriors, VC went 4-6 FGAs and 9 pts... nets lost...
the 2nd night against the kings, VC was a DNP... nets lost...
the 3rd night against the suns, VC went 9-23 FGAs and 23 pts... nets lost...
the 4th night against the fakers, VC went 3-12 FGAs and 10 pts... nets WON...
the 5th night against the nuggets, VC went 6-13 FGAs and 25 pts... nets WON...

What about Ray Allen?

answer your own question... WHAT about ray allen?

did you notice that the game before against the jazz, ray allen went 8-20 (40%) FGAs for 23 pts? guess what? sonics lost that game too...
did you notice that in the fakers game, ray allen went 6-15 (40%) FGAs for 19 pts? guess what? sonics lost that game too...
did you notice that the game after against the hornets, ray allen went 7-15 (46%) for 15 pts? guess what? sonics lost that game too...

PLEASE, brother, put down the damn BOX SCORES and learn to WATCH THE GAME...

 

[RunawaySlave]

It's too bad Basketball doesn't have the "Plus/Minus" stat
like they have in hockey. It would be a good barometer
for quite a few players....not just Kobe

 

[Havoc]

Is it necessary for me to continue saying that I know Kobe takes bad shots? It's kind of like beating a dead horse.

Consistency. Or in their case, a lack of it. I see the Lakers have several players that have shown that they can play better than the numbers would indicate. However, they are not consistent. I'd like to see the Lakers change some things in the weeks to come, like actually making shots and establishing some sort of control early on in the games.

What does all of these problems with the Lakers say about Phil Jackson as a coach if they continue?