Betrayal of the Civil rights Struggle ?

[Fuckallyall]

Betrayal of the struggle
By Walter E. Williams

Dec 14, 2005


Last month, when Rosa Parks was laid to rest in Detroit, her eulogy contained well-deserved praise for her brave defiance of segregation laws that led to the 1955 Montgomery, Ala., bus boycott and later the 1956 Supreme Court ruling that banned public transportation segregation. The passing and remembrance of her generation of blacks, who made sacrifices to deliver today's opportunities, might also be an occasion for condemnation of what's no less than a gross betrayal of that generation's struggle.

Having lived just about one-third of our nation's existence, I know, as well as experienced, the uglier parts of our history. During the '30s, '40s and '50s, civil rights progress meant yearly black lynchings were down to single digits, as opposed to 50 or more in previous decades. In 1954, when I graduated from Philadelphia's Benjamin Franklin High School, rare was the opportunity for a black student to go off to college. While segregation was mostly in the South, it nonetheless existed in northern cities. There were entire Philadelphia neighborhoods where, regardless of socioeconomic status, blacks could not rent or buy. There were business establishments, including movie theaters and restaurants, where black patronage was not welcomed.

While not every vestige of racial discrimination has been eliminated, it is nowhere near the barrier it was yesteryear, but you'd think discrimination is everywhere listening to some of today's black politicians and civil rights leaders. One wonders what those blacks, who lived during the era of gross discrimination and are now deceased, would think about so much of today's behavior, rhetoric and excuses.

What would they think about black neighborhoods, once thriving economic centers that have been turned into economic wastelands by a level of criminal activity previously unknown? During my youth, walking through some of Philadelphia's predominantly white neighborhoods, one felt a sense of relief as we approached a black neighborhood. Today, it might be the other way around. What would they think about predominantly black schools where violence and intimidation are the order of the day, with police cars outside and metal detectors inside? What would they think about black students who seek academic excellence being mocked, intimidated and assaulted by their peers for "acting white"?

By any assessment, black Americans have made the greatest progress, over some of the highest hurdles and in the shortest span of time than any other racial group in the history of mankind. If one added the earnings of black Americans and thought of us as a nation, we'd be the 14th richest nation. Black Americans have held some of the nation's highest positions, such as secretaries of State, Housing and Urban Development, Health and Human Services and Education; chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and mayors of some of our largest cities. Blacks are some of the world's most famous personalities, and a few blacks rank among the world's richest people. In 1865, neither a slave nor a slave owner would have believed these gains possible in a little over a century, if ever. As such, it not only speaks well of the determination and intestinal fortitude of a people, but also of a nation in which such gains were possible.

For a large segment of the black community, these gains remain elusive. The gains will remain elusive so long as black civil rights and political leadership blame and focus their energies on discrimination. While discrimination exists, the relevant question is how much of what we see can be explained by it. A 70 percent illegitimacy rate, 60 percent of black children raised in female-headed households, high crime and poor school performance have devastating consequences. This level of pathology cannot be attributed to discrimination, considering that much of it was absent in earlier times when there was far more discrimination, greater poverty and fewer opportunities.

It's time that black people hold fellow blacks accountable for squandering opportunities won at a high cost by our ancestors. Failing to do so makes all blacks complicit in the betrayal.



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Find this story at: http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2005/12/14/179103.html

 

[QueEx]

Well, I wonder will there be the same objections to Mr. Walter E. Williams saying this as there were when Bill Cosby said, in different words, the same thing ???

QueEx

 

[Makkonnen]

Well, I wonder will there be the same objections to Mr. Walter E. Williams saying this as there were when Bill Cosby said, in different words, the same thing ???

QueEx

Were the objections to cosby's message based on his choice of words? i missed the part about the ethnic names in the above post, and the shooting cake thieves and the other generic attacks made by the coz

 

[Temujin]

So the war is over and those still fighting for equality are the oppressors.

I don't see how crazy you have to be to believe that the problems in the black community are caused by black activists still fighting for equality. I guess hungry people in the ghetto read a lot of Michael Eric Dyson and its stunting their development.

But I'll give it a try. I'll ignore racism and it's constant boot on my neck maybe if I pretend its not there it will go away.

Before this gets into a long personal responsibility vs. racism beef thread let me say that I have no problem with people preaching personal responsibility I think its needed. But that however is not what this guy is talking about. He is playing the same blame game he is accusing many black leaders of doing. I just wish that the conservative black leaders and the liberal black leaders could get along. It seems that all I hear from these conservative leaders are attacks against liberal leaders or the black community. And then the liberal leaders take the bait and come back with the uncle tom cooning shit. We end up fighting each other while the poor still suffer.

 

[QueEx]

Were the objections to cosby's message based on his choice of words? i missed the part about the ethnic names in the above post, and the shooting cake thieves and the other generic attacks made by the coz

Is this an argument of semantics ... or substance ???

QueEx

 

[Fuckallyall]

So the war is over and those still fighting for equality are the oppressors.

I don't see how crazy you have to be to believe that the problems in the black community are caused by black activists still fighting for equality. I guess hungry people in the ghetto read a lot of Michael Eric Dyson and its stunting their development.

But I'll give it a try. I'll ignore racism and it's constant boot on my neck maybe if I pretend its not there it will go away.

Before this gets into a long personal responsibility vs. racism beef thread let me say that I have no problem with people preaching personal responsibility I think its needed. But that however is not what this guy is talking about. He is playing the same blame game he is accusing many black leaders of doing. I just wish that the conservative black leaders and the liberal black leaders could get along. It seems that all I hear from these conservative leaders are attacks against liberal leaders or the black community. And then the liberal leaders take the bait and come back with the uncle tom cooning shit. We end up fighting each other while the poor still suffer.

How does the "boot on your neck" manifest itself in YOUR life ? Please be specific, and cite examples of overt racism that you yourself have experienced and how those experiences have directly and unaviodibly prevented you from achieving what you set out to achieve.

 

[Temujin]

How does the "boot on your neck" manifest itself in YOUR life ? Please be specific, and cite examples of overt racism that you yourself have experienced and how those experiences have directly and unaviodibly prevented you from achieving what you set out to achieve.

The boot to my neck is of course metaphorical. Essentially the boot to my neck personally manifests itself in the stereotypes I am subjected to on a daily basis.

1.It manifests itself in the way I approach all my interactions with white people. The fact that I must consciously adapt my behavior, clothes, speech in order to not be treated in a racist manner is my burdern.

2.The fact that I must network with black professionals because if I network with white professionals I will not receive the same benefits that white professionals receive.

3. The fact that my company is audited EVERY year by the DMA while similar white companies are audited once every 3 to 5 years.

4. The fact that I must use a small bank for my business concerns because big banks have consistently treated me in a manner not consistent with normal banking practices. (One time I had to transfer 30K from one bank to another to cover some expenses. The teller told me that they were going to hold the check for 5 days. I know very well that according to new banking law checks are verified within 24 hours. I had her call he manager and he had to nerve to ask me "is the check good".)

5. The fact that a new service was being contracted for in my area. Myself and two other black owned companies put in applications for approval. We were all approved including one white company. When it was time for the white case managers to start assigning their clients to the companies the white company got 103clients we got 4 , one of the black companies got 3 and the other got 5.

6. The fact that even when I introduce myself as CFO of my corporation I still do not get the respect I deserve as a CFO until I go into my educational background.

As far as the second part of your question. I never let any of these things stop me from achieving what I want to achieve. I use them as motivations to achieve greater things. However I do fight for the allievation of these burdens because I know without them my path to success would be significantly easier.

 

[Fuckallyall]

The boot to my neck is of course metaphorical. Essentially the boot to my neck personally manifests itself in the stereotypes I am subjected to on a daily basis.

1.It manifests itself in the way I approach all my interactions with white people. The fact that I must consciously adapt my behavior, clothes, speech in order to not be treated in a racist manner is my burdern.

2.The fact that I must network with black professionals because if I network with white professionals I will not receive the same benefits that white professionals receive.

3. The fact that my company is audited EVERY year by the DMA while similar white companies are audited once every 3 to 5 years.

4. The fact that I must use a small bank for my business concerns because big banks have consistently treated me in a manner not consistent with normal banking practices. (One time I had to transfer 30K from one bank to another to cover some expenses. The teller told me that they were going to hold the check for 5 days. I know very well that according to new banking law checks are verified within 24 hours. I had her call he manager and he had to nerve to ask me "is the check good".)

5. The fact that a new service was being contracted for in my area. Myself and two other black owned companies put in applications for approval. We were all approved including one white company. When it was time for the white case managers to start assigning their clients to the companies the white company got 103clients we got 4 , one of the black companies got 3 and the other got 5.

6. The fact that even when I introduce myself as CFO of my corporation I still do not get the respect I deserve as a CFO until I go into my educational background.

As far as the second part of your question. I never let any of these things stop me from achieving what I want to achieve. I use them as motivations to achieve greater things. However I do fight for the allievation of these burdens because I know without them my path to success would be significantly easier.

You merely espoused your actions and feelings in most cases, not any actions taken by others which were unquestionably racist, and you did not describe how the allocation of clients were racist. Facts, by themselves, are not racist.

Metaphors are not facts. It seems that YOUR preceptions, not those of others, are the root of your dissatisfation, according to what you have posted above.

Also, FYI, many white people adjust thier mode of behavior in professional situations as well. They speak slang, dress differently, use different language patters outside of the workplace as well. Do they have a boot in thier neck ?

 

[Temujin]

You merely espoused your actions and feelings in most cases, not any actions taken by others which were unquestionably racist, and you did not describe how the allocation of clients were racist. Facts, by themselves, are not racist.

Metaphors are not facts. It seems that YOUR preceptions, not those of others, are the root of your dissatisfation, according to what you have posted above.

Also, FYI, many white people adjust thier mode of behavior in professional situations as well. They speak slang, dress differently, use different language patters outside of the workplace as well. Do they have a boot in thier neck ?

Man if you are trying to convince me that racism doesn't exist in 2005 and doesn't effect me that is impossible. I'm trying to figure out what happened in America to where race is not an issue. Everytime something major happens in America (Katrina,) I am reminded of the differences between the white peoples experiences and black people experiences in America

If you choose to believe racism doesn't exist that is your choice, your belief or lack of belief in racims doesn't affect me either way. The constant attempts by conservatives to convince the black liberal elite that racism does not exist is pointless.

The fact of the matter is we both have the same goals. We both want sucess for ourselves and sucess for our people. I clearly illustrated to you how my belief in the existence of racism in America does not affect my determination for my own success. If I did not believe racism existed in America I would still be in the same position. White companies in my industry with similar qualifications would still get more contracts, banks would still treat similarly situated black and white owned companies differently.

So the point is why are we as black people even arguing about racism in America? The internal dispute among the black elite serves no purpose it gets our people nowhere.

I say to you and all black conservatives to continue your struggle. Continue to promote personal responsibility. I will continue to work to elliminate the structural racism that is obvious to me and many others. We can work together and achieve the same goal. I will respect your right to think personal responsibility is all we need to reach equality if you respect the opinion that racism may exist. If you can admit it may exist then you can respect my stance that the liberal struggle against structural racism is not pointless.

What conservatives must understand is that the fight for personal responsibility is not contingent on dening racism exists. It is not necessary for you guys to constantly promote that the liberal activists are hurting our people by making white people aware of their racism. I nor any other liberal would tell any black person not to try because of racism. We would tell them to try harder because of racism.

THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF RACISM DOES NOT MEAN YOU USE RACISM AS AN EXCUSE. THE FIGHT AGAINST RACISM IS NOT COUNTER PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

We have the same goals just different techniques. Lets use both for our success as a people.

 

[QueEx]

Butting in ...

Man if you are trying to convince me that racism doesn't exist in 2005 and doesn't effect me that is impossible. I'm trying to figure out what happened in America to where race is not an issue. Everytime something major happens in America (Katrina,) I am reminded of the differences between the white peoples experiences and black people experiences in America

Is it really that racism doesn't exist - or - the way WE sometimes, by kneejerk reaction, assign race as the culprit when race isn't the motivating factor ??? I ask this question very seriously because I see it happening, way too much. Its difficult to deal with actual racism when we can't weed out that which really isn't racism. Do you doubt what I'm saying ???

The constant attempts by conservatives to convince the black liberal elite that racism does not exist is pointless.

So the point is why are we as black people even arguing about racism in America? The internal dispute among the black elite serves no purpose it gets our people nowhere.

I always thought the more constructive thought the merrier. Now, I don't know about those labels you're throwing around and who, on or off this board, wears them - but it just seems to me that debate and discussion amoung different people and ideas is a healthy thing. No ???


QueEx

 

[Fuckallyall]

Man if you are trying to convince me that racism doesn't exist in 2005 and doesn't effect me that is impossible. I'm trying to figure out what happened in America to where race is not an issue. Everytime something major happens in America (Katrina,) I am reminded of the differences between the white peoples experiences and black people experiences in America

If you choose to believe racism doesn't exist that is your choice, your belief or lack of belief in racims doesn't affect me either way. The constant attempts by conservatives to convince the black liberal elite that racism does not exist is pointless.

The fact of the matter is we both have the same goals. We both want sucess for ourselves and sucess for our people. I clearly illustrated to you how my belief in the existence of racism in America does not affect my determination for my own success. If I did not believe racism existed in America I would still be in the same position. White companies in my industry with similar qualifications would still get more contracts, banks would still treat similarly situated black and white owned companies differently.

So the point is why are we as black people even arguing about racism in America? The internal dispute among the black elite serves no purpose it gets our people nowhere.

I say to you and all black conservatives to continue your struggle. Continue to promote personal responsibility. I will continue to work to elliminate the structural racism that is obvious to me and many others. We can work together and achieve the same goal. I will respect your right to think personal responsibility is all we need to reach equality if you respect the opinion that racism may exist. If you can admit it may exist then you can respect my stance that the liberal struggle against structural racism is not pointless.

What conservatives must understand is that the fight for personal responsibility is not contingent on dening racism exists. It is not necessary for you guys to constantly promote that the liberal activists are hurting our people by making white people aware of their racism. I nor any other liberal would tell any black person not to try because of racism. We would tell them to try harder because of racism.

THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF RACISM DOES NOT MEAN YOU USE RACISM AS AN EXCUSE. THE FIGHT AGAINST RACISM IS NOT COUNTER PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

We have the same goals just different techniques. Lets use both for our success as a people.

As usual, you go off on a tangent when challenged with reason. Then you make assertions, unsupported by any facts, to divert the discussion to a place you FEEL comfortable.

Now, back to my point, which was never asserting that racism doesn't exist. The author of the article I posted did not allege that racism doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, he expressly aknowledged the racism does still rear it's ugly head. What he was say ing (and I totally agree) that the way folks like you throw around the race card is BULLSHIT. We do not have anywhere near the racially based obstacles that existed within the authors lifetime, but for some reason, we engange in behavior that is counter productive to success more than we did years ago and then break out the "Blame Whitey" speech to justify our own self-destructive behavior. I'm sick of it, and will do my best to challenge it and stamp it out whenever possible. If Martin, Malcolm & Medgar caught bullets for the struggle, then I'll be damned if I sit by while we get 3,4,or 5 Babby mommas, then complain that "the man" is keeping him down by making him pay child support. They did not die so you could cry racism because potential customers "make" you "feel" uncomfortable. Contrary to popular opinion on this board, most white people I met are not racist and not out to get us.

 

[water]

As usual, you go off on a tangent when challenged with reason. Then you make assertions, unsupported by any facts, to divert the discussion to a place you FEEL comfortable.

Now, back to my point, which was never asserting that racism doesn't exist. The author of the article I posted did not allege that racism doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, he expressly aknowledged the racism does still rear it's ugly head. What he was say ing (and I totally agree) that the way folks like you throw around the race card is BULLSHIT. We do not have anywhere near the racially based obstacles that existed within the authors lifetime, but for some reason, we engange in behavior that is counter productive to success more than we did years ago and then break out the "Blame Whitey" speech to justify our own self-destructive behavior. I'm sick of it, and will do my best to challenge it and stamp it out whenever possible. If Martin, Malcolm & Medgar caught bullets for the struggle, then I'll be damned if I sit by while we get 3,4,or 5 Babby mommas, then complain that "the man" is keeping him down by making him pay child support. They did not die so you could cry racism because potential customers "make" you "feel" uncomfortable. Contrary to popular opinion on this board, most white people I met are not racist and not out to get us.

"most white people I met are not racist and not out to get us"

I can agree with that statement for a couple of reasons:

1. Most white people are indifferent to others especially so in the US. As long as things work in their favor they are not out to get anybody because they are secure in the thought that everything will be all right. In the poor white communities however, it is a different story as they blame blacks who they perceive as taking all the "benefits" that they could have had.

2. "Not out to get us" as long as we stay in "our place". As long as you don't exhibit any traces of ambition to be the best or become too vocal on issues

However white people are known to be "forked-tongue" even amongst themselves. This in itself brings about trust issues. Should we go the way of the Indians and take the word of whites?

Now don't get me wrong, blacks exhibit a lot of the same behavior as whites but its a numbers game, we cannot afford to .....

Whites got rid of their problems by creating a sub-class for their embarassments-white trash. Are we going to go down that road? Or are we going to stand in solidarity?

That is the question of the 21st century............

 

[Hung Lo]

As far as the discrimination thing goes, in the immortal words of the late, great Richard Pryor, "Money Talks, and Bullshit Walks".

People, be they White or Black, all have a What's In It For Me mentality. If the situation will benefit them, then color does not matter.

Temujin, in business, personality, and rapport has a lot to do with how far you go. Take a look at the Asian countries and how they conduct business. They have to get to know you, before they do business with you. We as black people need to take that same approach, when doing business. Get to know your banker. Have a planned approach to everything you do. There is no need to stay quiet about anything. Put it out there for everyone to see, and flaunt your success, then see how many deals get thrown your way.

 

[Temujin]

Butting in ...


Is it really that racism doesn't exist - or - the way WE sometimes, by kneejerk reaction, assign race as the culprit when race isn't the motivating factor ??? I ask this question very seriously because I see it happening, way too much. Its difficult to deal with actual racism when we can't weed out that which really isn't racism. Do you doubt what I'm saying ???


I always thought the more constructive thought the merrier. Now, I don't know about those labels you're throwing around and who, on or off this board, wears them - but it just seems to me that debate and discussion amoung different people and ideas is a healthy thing. No ???


QueEx

1. You are absolutely right is often a kneejerk reaction that racism is the culprit. But with the history of racism in this country it is a reasonable reaction. However I agree we need balance. We need to look at the problems of the black community from both sides. We need to identify and eliminate the racial impediments as well as the cultural/social impediments. But in my opinion most problems cannot be easily put into one box or the other. That is why I suggest we as a community instead of fighting one another over one solution we attack our problems from both sides.

2. I wasn't trying to label anyone. I was using dynamic opposites to illustrate the conflict I often see among black people in this new attempt to redifine the struggle. We definetly need good debate. However attacks and attempts to discredit entire opinions as anti-black and as a betrayel of the civil rights struggle are pointless. My honest thoughts on the article was that it was bullshit. But I decided not to add any heat to a pointlessly heated article.

 

[Temujin]

As usual, you go off on a tangent when challenged with reason. Then you make assertions, unsupported by any facts, to divert the discussion to a place you FEEL comfortable.

Now, back to my point, which was never asserting that racism doesn't exist. The author of the article I posted did not allege that racism doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, he expressly aknowledged the racism does still rear it's ugly head. What he was say ing (and I totally agree) that the way folks like you throw around the race card is BULLSHIT. We do not have anywhere near the racially based obstacles that existed within the authors lifetime, but for some reason, we engange in behavior that is counter productive to success more than we did years ago and then break out the "Blame Whitey" speech to justify our own self-destructive behavior. I'm sick of it, and will do my best to challenge it and stamp it out whenever possible. If Martin, Malcolm & Medgar caught bullets for the struggle, then I'll be damned if I sit by while we get 3,4,or 5 Babby mommas, then complain that "the man" is keeping him down by making him pay child support. They did not die so you could cry racism because potential customers "make" you "feel" uncomfortable. Contrary to popular opinion on this board, most white people I met are not racist and not out to get us.

Dog I wasn't on a tangent you where on a tangent and I was trying to bring you to a cognitive point. If I ever make assertions unsopported by facts point them out, otherwise YOU are just making assertions unsupported by facts.

The rest of what you said needs to be clearly thought out. I really don't think you even understand what you are saying. You say you are sick of these imaginary people that "throw out the race card". And now you are going to stand up and stamp out the throwers of the race card wherever they may be. Then you have the nerve to compare your attacks on other black people as in any way comparable to the struggles of Malcolm and Martin. Your whole rant was ridiculous. Attacking black liberals for addressing racial issues in America does nothing to uplift your race. Honest debate is necessary it helps to define positions and keep them in line. However mindless attempts to stamp out opinions held by black people because they are not in line with your own is not productive.

I tried to extend an olive branch to your misguided opinion because I honestly thought it came from a good place. But apparently your struggle is not to uplift the race. Apparently your goal is to stamp out the throwers of the race card. People don't have 3,4,5 baby mammas because they feel the white man is keeping them down. People don't sell drugs because of racism or claims of racism. So I have no idea how you plan to alleviate these problems by stamping out the race card throwers. But good luck with your struggle. I won't throw any race cards around you. lol

 

[Temujin]

"most white people I met are not racist and not out to get us"

I can agree with that statement for a couple of reasons:

1. Most white people are indifferent to others especially so in the US. As long as things work in their favor they are not out to get anybody because they are secure in the thought that everything will be all right. In the poor white communities however, it is a different story as they blame blacks who they perceive as taking all the "benefits" that they could have had.

2. "Not out to get us" as long as we stay in "our place". As long as you don't exhibit any traces of ambition to be the best or become too vocal on issues

However white people are known to be "forked-tongue" even amongst themselves. This in itself brings about trust issues. Should we go the way of the Indians and take the word of whites?

Now don't get me wrong, blacks exhibit a lot of the same behavior as whites but its a numbers game, we cannot afford to .....

Whites got rid of their problems by creating a sub-class for their embarassments-white trash. Are we going to go down that road? Or are we going to stand in solidarity?

That is the question of the 21st century............

My brother from another mother. I am very fearful that we are going down that road.

 

[QueEx]

1. You are absolutely right is often a kneejerk reaction that racism is the culprit. But with the history of racism in this country it is a reasonable reaction.

Thats what I disagree with. You acknowledge the kneejerk - but conclude that its reasonable. A contradiction in terms, isn't it ???

Everyone knows racism exists, not only in this country, but most other places as well. Does the history of racism in this country warrant a suspicious eye? - you damn right it does. But a suspicious eye should be accompanied by rational analysis - which requires one to look not only at an action or reaction that might be racist, but it requires one to look inside, honestly, openly and objectively, to see whether one is the victim of ones own preconceived notions.

2. I wasn't trying to label anyone. I was using dynamic opposites to illustrate the conflict I often see among black people in this new attempt to redifine the struggle.

I don't know, but the way I read it, you've labeled yourself a "Liberal", even in posts since I mentioned it, supra. And, you appear to label most of those with contrary opinions to yours as "Conservative". How can you ever have a convergence of thought when you pigeonhole ideas in that manner ???

QueEx

 

[Temujin]

Thats what I disagree with. You acknowledge the kneejerk - but conclude that its reasonable. A contradiction in terms, isn't it ???

Everyone knows racism exists, not only in this country, but most other places as well. Does the history of racism in this country warrant a suspicious eye? - you damn right it does. But a suspicious eye should be accompanied by rational analysis - which requires one to look not only at an action or reaction that might be racist, but it requires one to look inside, honestly, openly and objectively, to see whether one is the victim of ones own preconceived notions.



I don't know, but the way I read it, you've labeled yourself a "Liberal", even in posts since I mentioned it, supra. And, you appear to label most of those with contrary opinions to yours as "Conservative". How can you ever have a convergence of thought when you pigeonhole ideas in that manner ???

QueEx

If you don't think a kneejerk reaction is reasonable then why should we look with a suspicious eye. I think we are saying the same thing. I totally agree that a rational analysis should take place but often people choose sides before they do an analysis.


I try not to label other people. However certain opinions do tend to fit into those categorize. I would prefer no labels but when describing a conflict I have to attempt to illustrate the combatants. I do not want a convergance of thought. I want a convergance of focus. If our focus is the upliftment of our race then it does not matter if your path is personal responsibility or structural racism (I could have said conservative or liberal), with a common focus we will both meet at the same place.

 

[QueEx]

If you don't think a kneejerk reaction is reasonable then why should we look with a suspicious eye. I think we are saying the same thing. I totally agree that a rational analysis should take place but often people choose sides before they do an analysis.

Brother,

A knee jerk reaction is, as I see it, labeling an action as being racist without much, if any, thought. For example, white people's use of the word "Boy" comes to mind. Without question, the word has been used, especially in the south, to show superiority. On the other hand, the word has no such meaning in the lexicon of many, if not most, whites. But our reaction to a white person using the word towards us, almost universally, is to take offense implying a racist connotation. Is that reasonable ??? I suggest not. Of course, with just a bit of analysis which takes place almost instantaneously, one can quickly come to a rational conclusion that the words really have some sinister meaning - or it meant absolutely nothing. Before a bit of reason, why would anyone simply choose sides ??? Thats irrational, to me.

I try not to label other people. However certain opinions do tend to fit into those categorize. I would prefer no labels but when describing a conflict I have to attempt to illustrate the combatants. I do not want a convergance of thought. I want a convergance of focus. If our focus is the upliftment of our race then it does not matter if your path is personal responsibility or structural racism (I could have said conservative or liberal), with a common focus we will both meet at the same place.

What you want is for me, and others, to accept your view, however skewed it may be. You want people to choose sides when that isn't necessary. For example, throughout this discourse you insist that "personal responsibility" is a conservative notion and a separate and different path than, as you put it, the fight against "structural racism" which YOU labeled as a liberal notion. Why this separation ???

I don't think anyone is saying that personal responsibility, alone, is the answer. Its just one of many things we should be wrapping into our improvement. In fact, your "structural" approach is nothing more than another cog in the wheel as well. Why you would want to de-emphasize personal responsiblity is simply beyond me. But, then again, it may make sense: if you think knee jerk responses are reasonable, then I can see how you would find introspection (personal reponsibility) to be unreasonable.

QueEx

 

[O.G. Mudbone]

I join this debate late, but here are my thoughts on the issue....

We all know racism still exists. It's prevalent in many areas of commerce and social settings. There are those of us who are determined to push through these barriers in order to place blacks in a positive light and in a position of power.

What I've noticed both in life (and within this thread) is that there are differences in opinion regarding the status of Black America. There's a side that racism is a minor issue in America. Your success dictates you "class"-ification in society. There's a side which feels very "middle of the road"; succeed without forgetting to help those less fortunate than you. Lastly, there are those who feel that racism exists and there is a constant conspiracy or "boot on the neck" of the black race.

There was a point made earlier about whites justification of their elitism by labeling their less-successful counterparts "White Trash". In my young years on this earth you see that it does exist and is strangely similar to what we call the "ghetto" or "the hood". The one defining difference is that someone from a "White Trash" background can (if willed by the participant) be cleaned, groomed and educated to fit into the mainstream white society.
The difference in us is not that it cannot be done, it's just that the numbers of us within those ranks is not high enough to garner the respect of those in power.

I know that statement will encourage someone to call me some "Uncle Tom" or "sellout", but let's look at the facts:

You don't play basketball on a football field;

Some of us are playing the wrong game on the wrong field.

In order to be within a position of power, you must study and learn the game that's being played before you play it.

We've somehow lost our way with education on alot of levels within our community. We've also felt a need to still hold on to this arcane belief that we can't bend a little to get ahead. For example, there are many blacks that I encounter that work in a corporate enviornment that don't conform to the basic dress code of that enviornment. Their suits are ill-fitting and their shoes aren't appropriate. They call themselves out for scorn because they look out of place in the corporate enviornment. If you stepped out of your house today and saw a man in a kilt walking to work as if nothing is out of place, you'd look brand him all kinds of crazy, right?

White America finds it easy to brand us because we give them the ok to do so in many situations. If you look at other cultures in the same settings (ie the corporate enviornment) they still brand them, however, they are given more opportunity because they look and play the game on their field. When off the field, they're totally different game players.

I see sometimes that we feel we're too proud to fold into larger society. If you look at other poorer cultural groups you will see that their goal is to become successful and to fold into the larger American society. If you're privy to having access, you'll see this in the Hispanic society now. Due to sheer numbers and that drive, they will outpace our successes in a mere number of years. They too will also have their "Trash" as all cultures do.

My belief is that we should succeed in business, entertaiment, and the arts as a people. Those who should succeed should help those less fortunate and help to inspire others to succeed and open a path for them. We can't save everybody and I think that's the sticky point with alot of folks. There are some that don't want to be saved. They're comfortable exactly where they are.


Racism will always exist. Combating it through powerful economic means will help to sedate it.

I welcome all debate on this topic.

 

[Temujin]

Brother,

A knee jerk reaction is, as I see it, labeling an action as being racist without much, if any, thought. For example, white people's use of the word "Boy" comes to mind. Without question, the word has been used, especially in the south, to show superiority. On the other hand, the word has no such meaning in the lexicon of many, if not most, whites. But our reaction to a white person using the word towards us, almost universally, is to take offense implying a racist connotation. Is that reasonable ??? I suggest not. Of course, with just a bit of analysis which takes place almost instantaneously, one can quickly come to a rational conclusion that the words really have some sinister meaning - or it meant absolutely nothing. Before a bit of reason, why would anyone simply choose sides ??? Thats irrational, to me.


What you want is for me, and others, to accept your view, however skewed it may be. You want people to choose sides when that isn't necessary. For example, throughout this discourse you insist that "personal responsibility" is a conservative notion and a separate and different path than, as you put it, the fight against "structural racism" which YOU labeled as a liberal notion. Why this separation ???

I don't think anyone is saying that personal responsibility, alone, is the answer. Its just one of many things we should be wrapping into our improvement. In fact, your "structural" approach is nothing more than another cog in the wheel as well. Why you would want to de-emphasize personal responsiblity is simply beyond me. But, then again, it may make sense: if you think knee jerk responses are reasonable, then I can see how you would find introspection (personal reponsibility) to be unreasonable.

QueEx

We have a different understanding of what a kneejerk reaction would be. When I was referring to a kneejerk reaction I meant including racism as a possible cause in the analysis of the sitution. I never meant coming to a conclusion without doing an analysis. I would hope you would think I am smarter than that.
Anyone who makes conclusions without analysis is a fool and I would never suggest a foolish reaction.


I'll re-read my posts but I don't know where you get that I am trying to de-emphasize personal responsibility. From my first post to know I have stated that personal responsibility is absolutely necessary to achieving our goals as a people.

I emphatically DO NOT want people to have to choose side. My whole point is that we are all on the same side with varing opinions. I have no idea how you took my attempts at solidarity and unity as attempts to be devisive. I think you have a problem with categories. And because I use categories to emphasize the obvious division I see among our elite when discussing black issues you think that I somehow support these categories. I do not as I stated earlier they are just ways to name an opinion. It is obvious that the main pundits of personal responsibility (Bill Cosby, Jesse Paterson, Armstrong Williams etc. are conservative), the main pundits exspousing structural racism (Jesse Jackson, Michael Eric Dyson, Al Sharpton, etc.) are liberal and they have openly said this in the past.

I know the majority of people cannot be fit into one box or the other. However the author of the article clearly feels attacking structural racism is detrimental to the black community. He feels it provides an excuse for not emphasizing personal responsibility. My whole point from then to know was to converge those ideas and show that they are not mutualy exclusive.

 

[QueEx]

I join this debate late, but ...

Well said.

QueEx

 

[respiration]

The viewpoints expressed in the article are not purely a "let's take responsibility for self to advance Black people plea" Given that fact that the site from which this article is linked features only editorials by right wing whites and Blacks who favor the right wing power structure - Ward Connerly, Star Parker, Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, Armstrong Williams etc - it comes off to me (barely beneath the surface) as more of the same oversimplification and stereotyping of poor Blacks that whites are famous for. Right wing whites love, whenever they can, to filter their "armchair" stereotyping and bigotry through the mouths of Blacks. This is yet another example.

My distaste comes not in a disagreement with the concept of personal responsibility - I'm all for that. The distaste is for the general attempt by the right-wing media to both subtly paint us as lazy, apathetic, violent, sloppy, deceitful, criminal and incompetent..and their careful use of Black-faced mouthpieces to say the shit they are afraid to say about us - lest they be labelled as racists.

It is far too "black and white" to portray things as solely being a matter of a conflict between indiscriminately crying racism at every shadow we see vs taking complete responsibility for every "illness" in our communities.

A thorough analysis of the current status of Black Americans would take a broad range of factors into account. They would include the areas where we should be taking more responsibility for our own in our homes and communities in which we live, and also would include very real racial inequities - that are most noticeable in the disparity between Blacks and whites in things like health, health care, salaries and resources allotted to schools in inner city neighborhoods.

History cannot be discounted. White people have had a 400 year head start to build their industries and wealth and the social, family and communal systems that resulted from that. They have been able to freely educate themselves, worship as they wished, maintain cultural and ethnic roots with their countries of heritage, go wherever they wanted to go, engage in commerce and trade with whomever they wanted, interact with whomever they wanted to interact, and prosper off and build entire industries of the forced free labor of Black people. While at the same time Blacks were denied ALL of the same freedoms.

A 400 year head start.
400 years of psychological damage to both the individual and collective Black spirit and consciousness in America. It has been only 50 years since the end of legal segregation. Can a collective Black American psyche in only 50 years heal completely from 400 years of physical, physchological, emotional and spiritual terrorism? Has their been any serious energy or study committed towards dealing with the Black population of America as their being victims of post traumatic stress?

I believe that all things considered, we as a Black people have done remarkably well in America. I'm not opposed to us critiquing ourselves...US critiquing ourselves - meaning Black folks who remain connected to the Black community in some tangible way. I believe that Bill Cosby said some very relevant things that are uncomfortable for a lot of us to hear - yet we should take under serious advisement. But that's just it. As opposed to the right wing "Black" mouthpieces, I'm able to listen to Coz with more of an open ear because he has always repped as a brotha who is down with us. This is particularly true in his careful choice of images and messages in his presentations and in his commitment to education for Black folks on all level - from primary school to college.

But I maintain, in order to deal with our success and failure in America, it cannot happen without factoring in EVERYTHING - including our personal responsibility, but also including those forces outside of us that have and still do work towards keeping us under the thumb of oppression - whether actively or by inactivity. Just because most of us are not living in tin shacks does not mean that serious racial inequity in America doesn't exist. From a more global perspective, the United Nations recently correctly ID'd the US a human rights violator - due to those same very real racial inequities.

Just my .5 cents on the article
Peace.

 

[QueEx]

^^^^^

 

[QueEx]

<font size="4">

From the Archives
</font size>

 

[nittie]

There was a thread on Columbus's treatment of the natives that might answer this. Would his actions towards the natives be considered racism. What if it wasn't 'racism', would Columbus have treated white people the same way. If so then race is not the issue, character but not race. Then question then becomes what character are we dealing with here. What kind of animal is this. Is it what is considered human.

 

[Greed]

Walter E. Williams: ‘The civil rights struggle is over, and it is won'

Walter E. Williams: ‘The civil rights struggle is over, and it is won' [AUDIO]
Jeff Poor
1:52 PM 08/28/2013

On WMAL 105.9 FM’s “Mornings on the Mall” radio program in Washington, D.C., on the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King, Jr.’s “I have a dream” speech, George Mason University professor Walter E. Williams declared that the civil rights struggle is “over” and “won,” but acknowledged the black community still faces struggles.

“The civil rights struggle is over, and it is won,” Williams said. “Now, I’m not saying that every vestige of discrimination has been eliminated, but the civil rights struggle is over and won. At one time, black Americans did not have the constitutional guarantees of everybody else. Now we do. The fact that the civil rights struggle is over and won does not mean that there are not major problems that black Americans face, but they’re not civil rights problems. And if we view them as civil rights problems, the solutions will be elusive forever.”

One example Williams cited was the increase in the illegitimacy rate, which he said was not a civil rights issue.

“For example, let me list two or three — the illegitimacy rate among blacks is around 75 percent,” he continued. “That’s a devastating problem, but it’s not a civil rights problem. In 1940, the illegitimacy rate was 14 percent. At the time Martin Luther King spoke, it was 25 percent. Only 30 percent of black kids are raised in two-parent families. That’s a devastating problem, but it’s not a civil rights problem. In the 1880s, up to 80 percent of black kids lived in two-parent families.”

Others problems he cited were the lackluster education system in the black community and the high homicide rate among African-Americans, neither of which were civil rights issues in his opinion.

“Another major problem that blacks face that’s not a civil rights problem is the grossly fraudulent education that most black youngsters receive,” he added. “And Washington is a good example of that — that is the average black student who is a 12th grader — he has the reading, writing and computational skills of a white seventh or eighth grader. That’s a devastating problem. But it’s not a civil rights problem. Over 50 percent of all homicide victims in the United States are black people. And it’s not the Klan killing them — 94 and 95 percent of them are killed by other blacks. Again, if we say that this is a civil rights problem — we need to do something about white people, then the solution is going to be elusive forever.”

http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/28/walter-e-williams-the-civil-rights-struggle-is-over-and-it-is-won/

 

[Fuckallyall]

Re: Walter E. Williams: ‘The civil rights struggle is over, and it is won'

Bump.

 

[thoughtone]

Is this an argument of semantics ... or substance ???

QueEx

No response.

Some "Black" folks attack Bill Cosby over negrocoon Walter E. Williams.

Bill Cosby is criticizing from concern and love appose to a political agenda. How much money has Walter E. Williams given to HBCUs?

The right does have a point. The problem is they are just as much the problem as the negative behavior.

 

[stretchwallz]

Well, I wonder will there be the same objections to Mr. Walter E. Williams saying this as there were when Bill Cosby said, in different words, the same thing ???



QueEx

Coz was an emotional rant the other is a rational analysis

Steak served raw or grilled is the same thing but it's received much differently

 

[Fuckallyall]

No response.

Some "Black" folks attack Bill Cosby over negrocoon Walter E. Williams.

Bill Cosby is criticizing from concern and love appose to a political agenda. How much money has Walter E. Williams given to HBCUs?

The right does have a point. The problem is they are just as much the problem as the negative behavior.

Really ? Does anyone on the right go around calling their own racial slurs with malice like you just did (again!)because of a valid disagreement with the perceptions of the world each have ?

 

[RoadRage]

Back in the days it was all about the struggle to fight for their rights, today we rather sit on our asses and cry, just as long as it doesn't effect our comfort, manning up to our failure makes us uncomfortable, so we instead blame it on failed civil rights and old black guys who love to rant..