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Basketball: Jalen Rose Has a Problem with Analytics (is it being used to exclude Blacks?)

Eclipse99

Eclipse99

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4 Dimensional said:
Bro, your last statement is why all the isms and stereotypes in the world exist today. :smh:

Please don't get me started on that shit :lol:

The university I work at is all about numbers. I had to put all my ethics aside to make the numbers work because that's all they care about.

Not the quality of the education, but can I get Dumb Doe out of college algebra so the fail rates don't look as bad. When I was ethical about it, I suffered consequences for not meeting the numbers even though I can only do so much as an instructor. I can't MAKE a student do work if they simply don't want to do it. Jesus couldn't come down and force these students to do work if they don't want to do it.

But you're right about the probability factor. A lot of what we do in society comes down to that.
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Yea man once you work in a field of such you really start to see some things.

But on the real, science and math are very important to an understanding of how this world works and how people make decisions. It's one thing I'm a really teach my son.

Just dont see many blacks into the concepts of science and math in which if one follow the trends, businesses and people are really taking an interest in that area when it comes to decision making.
 
playahaitian

playahaitian

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Certified Pussy Poster
4 Dimensional said:
Crazy as it sounds, stats can account for all of that stuff plus more.

We call it multivariate regression analysis (https://stats.idre.ucla.edu/stata/dae/multivariate-regression-analysis/)

This allows to take into account multiple factors and possibilities, so if I was a data analyst for a particular sports team, and if the data was accessible to me, I could come up with regression models to help predict various outcomes.

Now stats can not account for chaos because injuries are somewhat (even though was know some players are prone to injuries) unpredictable.

However, we can adjust the regression model to account for a teams output if a injury is suffered or if certain refs has a history of making certain calls at certain situations. But we are talking about adding several variables, which could be 100 different factors.

The chaotic factor is what can't be measured. We know it's very likely James Harden is going to dribble the shot clock out and shoot a contested step-back 3 pointer most of his possessions. But for some reason, it still can't be stopped. That because, as you mentioned, stats can't explain why it can't be stopped on those nerds can't either. But true basketball fans know that's 100% skill.
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I got into a heated debate with my oldest.

She watches a show calls adam ruins everything

And he insisted the giants championship run was largely passed on luck.

I'm trying to explain to her of course "luck" is involved in every athletic contest.

But you can't ever devalue preparation.

She started throwing out stats..

And I'm telling her yes on paper they shouldn't have won but thats WHY you play.

She started taking this online steph curry bball class

Tying to figure out numbers in everything

But im yelling her thats good but you gotta realize somethings are just hard work and can defy traditional analysis
 
4 Dimensional

4 Dimensional

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rjohns23 said:
Yea man once you work in a field of such you really start to see some things.

But on the real, science and math are very important to an understanding of how this world works and how people make decisions. It's one thing I'm a really teach my son.

Just dont see many blacks into the concepts of science and math in which if one follow the trends, businesses and people are really taking an interest in that area when it comes to decision making.
Click to expand...

Mostly definitely. We are very underrepresented in those areas, but over the years I understood why and Bomani pointed that out very well in that video. Us (black folks) don't do abstract well because it leaves too much for interpretation. Math is taught that way in our society and we need to see usage behind it, otherwise we feel there is no need for the extra shit if we ain't counting something.

That's why my approach emphasis on the philosophy of math and that we are basically doing this to understand the world. Granted, some people are simply just not interested in it, but I JUST got finished talking with one student who said she loved my math class and wish she could do more math. She didn't know she could major in it nor what to do with it. I explained to her she can do whatever she wants with it because math can explain a lot of things. Math don't depend on anything, but everything else depends on math.

playahaitian said:
I got into a heated debate with my oldest.

She watches a show calls adam ruins everything

And he insisted the giants championship run was largely passed on luck.

I'm trying to explain to her of course "luck" is involved in every athletic contest.

But you can't ever devalue preparation.

She started throwing out stats..

And I'm telling her yes on paper they shouldn't have won but thats WHY you play.

She started taking this online steph curry bball class

Tying to figure out numbers in everything

But im yelling her thats good but you gotta realize somethings are just hard work and can defy traditional analysis
Click to expand...

Anytime you are arguing against stats, always remember that nothing is ever 100%, so most statistical arguments can only come from an angle of highest probability.

Thing like "luck" is the same thing as "chaos." No stat can predict that, which is why a lot of analytical can't comprehend that because isn't doesn't compute in their head.

And you're right preparation is key. If you know a team is a great three point shooting team, then of course your going to prep for that and find ways to contain that stat to something below their average. Doing that will increase your probabilities to be successful in other areas, which may set up the circumstances for "luck" to happen.

I love numbers, but I think this is a great to time teach her not to lean on those numbers as absolute truth because there will be many times it will not apply as well.
 
4 Dimensional

4 Dimensional

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HisFlyness said:
Bruh, that's why I love this place. I came in here to pass some time before I got up to make breakfast. Now I want to look on Amazon for a book on statistical analysis.
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I haven't been a fan of how stats are taught in school. Mainly because most math teachers lack philosophy outside of mathematics. Some of the better stat books are high school text books. Them shits straightforward as hell.

Also, stats in school can be boring as fuck if not taught in a way that can keep you engaged. Most of my stats classes I use Microsoft Excel as well, so we can have hands on activities as well.

What separates those that like stats versus those that don't is the deeper you get into stats, the lengthier that math becomes; so you have to put in time and work.

Plus it has it's own terminology as well.
 
4 Dimensional

4 Dimensional

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rjohns23 said:
Yep you'll be surprised by how much of your everyday life people use statistical data to assist in your decision making process.
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Man, you're so right about this.

EVERYTHING and I truly mean it, everything, is based on some type of stat.

Look at the height of chairs, the size of doorways, how the default mouse is for right handed people, the brightness of lighting, the speed at which food is served as restaurants, the length of videos, default layout of video game controllers, the sizes of clothes and shoes, the prices of goods and so forth.

Stats is a part of our everyday life and people don't see it.
 
pookie

pookie

Thinking of a Master Plan
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4 Dimensional said:
D'Antoni uses the law of averages philosophy, which is the fallacious belief that a particular outcome or event is inevitable or certain simply because it is statistically possible.

Meaning if his team shoots 40% from the three point line as a yearly average, and in game they are currently shooting 25%, then if they keep shooting, then eventually it balance out, which is not true.
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Yeah I remember arguing with people about that game, dudes were actually agreeing with him talking about “that’s how they’ve played all year”. I just couldn’t understand how you could see that that game plan was not working for that particular game but continue to take those 3’s. I still can’t, I was up yelling at my tv when i’d see PJ Tucker or another grab an offensive rebound and run out to the 3 point line instead of going back up with it...smh

playahaitian said:
I got into a heated debate with my oldest.

She watches a show calls adam ruins everything

And he insisted the giants championship run was largely passed on luck.

I'm trying to explain to her of course "luck" is involved in every athletic contest.

But you can't ever devalue preparation.

She started throwing out stats..

And I'm telling her yes on paper they shouldn't have won but thats WHY you play.

She started taking this online steph curry bball class

Tying to figure out numbers in everything

But im yelling her thats good but you gotta realize somethings are just hard work and can defy traditional analysis
Click to expand...

I said the samething when dudes was saying this years NBA FINALS would be boring and how everybody already knew the Warriors were gonna win, I said then “THATS WHY THEY PLAY THE GAME” because you never know what can happen in sports
 
largebillsonlyplease

largebillsonlyplease

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Darrkman said:
I work in advertising and we use stats all the time when it comes to advertising campaigns. What my business has taught me is that the people interpreting the data will always bring their biases into the equation.
Click to expand...


Yea but basketball has immeasurable things data cannot quantify

You can't measure heart or killer instinct for one

That alone is enough to almost render all the high analytics useless
 
Eclipse99

Eclipse99

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largebillsonlyplease said:
Yea but basketball has immeasurable things data cannot quantify

You can't measure heart or killer instinct for one

That alone is enough to almost render all the high analytics useless
Click to expand...

Yea that's true.

But true analytical people will try to come up with an equation to measure someone's heart and killer instinct in basketball.

They may look at data of how a player plays in the last 2 minutes of a ball game with their team down 3 possessions as one of the basis for "killer instint"... they will get the data to justify if said player has that killer instinct mentality.

This is just one example (made up off the top of my head) but I think one can get the idea that everything can be measurable to some degree. Doesn't mean that it is correct but people will use it and make decisions off of it.
 
playahaitian

playahaitian

Rising Star
Certified Pussy Poster
4 Dimensional said:
Mostly definitely. We are very underrepresented in those areas, but over the years I understood why and Bomani pointed that out very well in that video. Us (black folks) don't do abstract well because it leaves too much for interpretation. Math is taught that way in our society and we need to see usage behind it, otherwise we feel there is no need for the extra shit if we ain't counting something.

That's why my approach emphasis on the philosophy of math and that we are basically doing this to understand the world. Granted, some people are simply just not interested in it, but I JUST got finished talking with one student who said she loved my math class and wish she could do more math. She didn't know she could major in it nor what to do with it. I explained to her she can do whatever she wants with it because math can explain a lot of things. Math don't depend on anything, but everything else depends on math.



Anytime you are arguing against stats, always remember that nothing is ever 100%, so most statistical arguments can only come from an angle of highest probability.

Thing like "luck" is the same thing as "chaos." No stat can predict that, which is why a lot of analytical can't comprehend that because isn't doesn't compute in their head.

And you're right preparation is key. If you know a team is a great three point shooting team, then of course your going to prep for that and find ways to contain that stat to something below their average. Doing that will increase your probabilities to be successful in other areas, which may set up the circumstances for "luck" to happen.

I love numbers, but I think this is a great to time teach her not to lean on those numbers as absolute truth because there will be many times it will not apply as well.
Click to expand...

You and @largebillsonlyplease have been her ghost tutors going on 2 years fam.

But its getting to be a REAL challenge cause she wants to DEBATE ME now and actually tries to bring books and numbers to prove her point.

She killing me slow bro.

Killing me.
 
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B

BlackGoku

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Platinum Member
playahaitian said:
You and @largebillsonlyplease have been her ghost tutors going on 2 years fam.

But its getting to be a REAL challenge cause she wants to DEBATE ME now and actually tries to bring books and numbers to prove her point.

She killing me slow bro.

Killing me.
Click to expand...

If she wants to talk about stats and the Giants...what was the probability of David Tyree coming down with that pass in the Super Bowl when they beat the "Greatest Team" ever in the pats...some things just...happen...and you can't explain it with numbers
 
largebillsonlyplease

largebillsonlyplease

Large
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rjohns23 said:
Yea that's true.

But true analytical people will try to come up with an equation to measure someone's heart and killer instinct in basketball.

They may look at data of how a player plays in the last 2 minutes of a ball game with their team down 3 possessions as one of the basis for "killer instint"... they will get the data to justify if said player has that killer instinct mentality.

This is just one example (made up off the top of my head) but I think one can get the idea that everything can be measurable to some degree. Doesn't mean that it is correct but people will use it and make decisions off of it.
Click to expand...


It's if you allow them to do it that's when it's the problem

Honestly it's no different than souless people telling you that the soul doesn't matter

When it does

It's why we're good at it and they're data nerds
 
SpiritualPorn

SpiritualPorn

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Darrkman said:
I work in advertising and we use stats all the time when it comes to advertising campaigns. What my business has taught me is that the people interpreting the data will always bring their biases into the equation.
Click to expand...
That's what I see

Numbers can prove anything.

It's like punchstat in a boxing match.
There is no way to account for impact

Stats would never predict an upset
 
Gods_Debris

Gods_Debris

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Registered
ifuno said:
Stats can tell any story you want them to tell. In this case you go with the player who has attempted more shots. 90% of one hundred is better than 90% of 10
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The answer is sample size....peep this when understanding genetics quantifying and qualifying: ancestry et al. WE DONT GET TO SEE THE LEDGER, JUST THE OUTPUT.

There is a lot of fuck shit in this world tied to "numbers"
 
Helico-pterFunk

Helico-pterFunk

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playahaitian said:
It’s the same with analytics and the three-point shot. I remember watching your Houston Rockets play and you guys had—and please help me with their roster—you had Corey Brewer, you had J.R. Smith—

Josh Smith.
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Nzinga

Nzinga

Lover of Africa
BGOL Investor
How can you complain about analytics being used selectively against
black people, when you went out there and selected a white wife?
 
jack walsh13

jack walsh13

Jack Walsh 13
BGOL Investor
Analytics are destroying sports.

hwfnlV.jpg
 

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