751 HRs
Five to go
Even pitching around him, they can't stop him
Five to go
Even pitching around him, they can't stop him
Barry Bonds: The Countdown
- Thread starter RunawaySlave
- Start date
I'm waiting to see if the Giants organization gets rid of him as soon as he sets the record (a la Emmitt Smith in Dallas)
Oh yeah I'm gonna be watching.
Even with all this steroid controversy, if Bonds were not black
(or should I say African American), there would be all KINDS
of hoopla surrounding his goings on.
Remember when MCGuire was going for the single season
record?? FOX was interrupting it's PRIME TIME Schedule
to show viewers his ABs
I've seen more hype behind the consecutive games streak
than this. And all Ripken had to do was show up!
(or should I say African American), there would be all KINDS
of hoopla surrounding his goings on.
Remember when MCGuire was going for the single season
record?? FOX was interrupting it's PRIME TIME Schedule
to show viewers his ABs
I've seen more hype behind the consecutive games streak
than this. And all Ripken had to do was show up!
EXACTLY!! I was surprised by the decent commentary thatRunawaySlave said:
Mike Schmidt had on Barry. He was stating how he hopes Hammerin' Hank is avail when the Barry breaks the record. Barry is a transitional player (which is not his fault). He did not build the little stadiums that were warning track out for Hank... pitchers don't brush back batters like they did in the past ... etc.
Imagine this
If A-Rod is still @ 499, he has hit 104(?) more homers than Bonds hit in the same amount of games.....Barry Bonds=Steroids
T
tattedupboi
Guest
RunawaySlave said:
Actually, I beg to differ. I get so sick and tired of people saying how Bonds is getting a raw deal because he's Black. That is simply not the case. Whether Bonds is Black or white, a cheater is a cheater, and I believe that the media is right to be treating this matter the way it has been treated. Prior to the steroids scandal coming out, I was rooting for Bonds, but since it has come out, I could actually care less about him breaking the record. I don't care what a man's race is, I will never root for him in anything if he's a cheater, which is what Bonds is.
tattedupboi said:
Of course...it has never been PROVEN that Bonds took steroids,
so why should that little bit of information sway your thinking??
FYI: If it HAD been proven that Bonds has been taking steroids,
it STILL wouldn't make a difference because McGuire WAS proven
to have been taking them (he admitted it himself), yet (like I said)
his EVERY at bat was covered by FOX. They even went so far as
to interrupt PRIMETIME programming to bring the USA (at the least)
those same ABs. Scandalous behavior and admitted CHEATING
notwithstanding, we got to see McGuire hit HR #62 (and 61), no
matter WHAT was on FOX at the time. They did not miss the chance
to cover the SECOND biggest record in sports being broken
Yet,they pass on so many chances to miss the FIRST biggest
T
tattedupboi
Guest
RunawaySlave said:Of course...it has never been PROVEN that Bonds took steroids,
so why should that little bit of information sway your thinking??
FYI: If it HAD been proven that Bonds has been taking steroids,
it STILL wouldn't make a difference because McGuire WAS proven
to have been taking them (he admitted it himself), yet (like I said)
his EVERY at bat was covered by FOX. They even went so far as
to interrupt PRIMETIME programming to bring the USA (at the least)
those same ABs. Scandalous behavior and admitted CHEATING
notwithstanding, we got to see McGuire hit HR #62 (and 61), no
matter WHAT was on FOX at the time. They did not miss the chance
to cover the SECOND biggest record in sports being broken
Yet,they pass on so many chances to miss the FIRST biggest
If it looks like a cheater, acts like a cheater, and smells like a cheater, then I have no choice but to conclude that it is a cheater.
tattedupboi said:
How it looks can be deceiving, since it's the very same media
that is giving the coverage and can edit or omit things so as
to coincide with what they are trying to convey to the public
Anyway....
CONGRATS!!!!
to Bonds for tying the record
T
tattedupboi
Guest
RunawaySlave said:
Maybe that is the case most of the time, but in this case, the media is dead on. The man is a steroid user and everyone here knows it. Personally, I'll be sad to see the record fall to someone who is a cheater. Is this what we've come to as a society, celebrating someone who clearly doesn't deserve it, simply on the basis of him being a Black man being "mistreated" by the media? Gimme a break. The ends do not necessarily justify the means, especially if the means involves cheating.
By the way, do any of you actually believe that he didn't know that the "cream" and "clear" he admitted to injecting himself with was actually steroids? Why in the world would he, any of you, or anybody else put anything in their bodies without being 100% sure about what it really is? Now, are all of you still going to insist that this is the media's fault, instead of placing the blame where it really belongs?
No one should be celebrating either this man or his steroid-assisted records. He brought this treatment he is getting in the media upon himself. Barry Bonds is not only a disgrace to the game of baseball, but also, to the Black race. Honestly, can any of us say that we're proud to have one of our own, who is also a steroid user, in possession of this record? I know I'm not.
tattedupboi said:
Again, it is all PERCEPTION that you are talking about. If everyone knows
it as you have repeated so often, why hasn't this man been suspended??
Especially in the last year, any and EVERY offender of the rule has been
put out to pasture. Including HALL OF FAMER Rafael Palermo (who got
busted). Players are getting MAJOR suspensions. Yet Bonds continues to
play and hasn't been suspended yet. The reason?? Because he has NEVER
tested positive for ANY performance enhancing drugs. Does that mean hes'
not taking any? Of course not. But that really has nothing to do with what
I was talking about anyway.
MY question, is why is there NO media coverage of the absolutely BIGGEST
record in sports about to be broken, when just a few years ago, when
McGuire (who admitted to "cheating" well before he was going after the
single season record) had his EVERY at bat covered by FOX even if there
was no game on at the time. They interrupted prime time shows to give
the public McGuire's at bats
To be honest, I really couldn't care less about these guys talking performance
enhancing drugs anyway. The supposed "cheating" is another topic. Since
it was allowed in certain sports but not others. Also, while steroids may have
become the hot topic because the MEDIA has put this spin on it, drugs have
ALWAYS been a part of Major League Baseball damn near since it's inception
Or don't amphetamines count??
T
tattedupboi
Guest
RunawaySlave said:
As I said before, it is a well-known fact that he admitted to knowingly taking "cream" and "clear" from his trainers on a regular basis. Yes, I will concede that Bonds has never tested positive for any performance enhancing drugs. However, that is because "clear", which he admits taking, was, until 2003, undetectable. Could it be that once a test was developed that was able to detect the presence of the "Clear", Bonds stopped taking it, and that is why he never tested positive for anything banned? I'm willing to bet the rent on it.
As for why there is virtually no media coverage of the imminence of the record being broken, I believe that what I have just written is the reason. He took a steroid that he knew could not be detected, and once he was implicated (but by no means, found to have done anything wrong) in the BALCO scandal, he stopped taking the "cream" and the "clear" and as a result, he never tested positive for anything. While he claims not to have known that he was taking steroids, it is now a well-known fact that cream and clear are, indeed, performance enhancing steroids, and Bonds knowingly took them. So, while he never tested postive for steroids, he admits to taking something that we all now know is indeed a performance enhancing steroid.
Like I said before, if it looks, acts, and smells like a cheater, it is a cheater. What say you, RunawaySlave?
Last edited by a moderator:
tattedupboi said:
What say I?? First of all, I say INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty.
Trials helds by newspapers or sportscaster do not hold any water
with me
Secondly, if you read my previous statement, I already stated
that I DO NOT CARE if pro athletes used that stuff or not. I do
care if AMATEUR althletes do though. Pro athletes have been using
all KINDS of drugs for decades. Makes me no difference. As long
as people understand what they are using and the repercussions
of what they are using BEFOREHAND. If the gov't can discuss legalizing
certain drugs, then so can pro athletes who take a serious pounding
Last but not least.....................
CONGRATULAIONS BARRRRRY!!!!!!!!!
756!!!!!!!!
I don't know how much you know about sports but there is one thing that you seem not to know: substance abuse has been pretty widespread in major sports. including baseball. In fact, many position players and pitchers have admitted to speeding their asses off -- and I don't mean around the base paths. What about the long balls bonds hit that didn't quiet clear the fence; was that because his sweet swing just wasn't good enough or because some juiced up pitcher threw in one that was juiced up just enough to make the difference? Of course, theres no way to know and theres no way to know whether some substance "actually" assisted any one of Bond's 756 home runs over the fence. You can speculate; but you can't prove that it did. And, until you can review the record of every juiced pitch and every juiced swing, there is simply no way you or anyone else can adjust the facts/records.tattedupboi said:
C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S - B A R R Y
Hank is still my HR Champ.
But Barry has earned his stripes.
QueEx
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/pla...7401&src=sports
Here's the link!!!!
Here's the link!!!!
T
tattedupboi
Guest
Whoop dee doo! I'm pretty sure all of you have noticed the conspicuous lack of coverage of this supposedly historic event, haven't you?
And Hangingbals, there is probably some validity to what you're saying, but they're called performance-enhancing drugs for a reason. Barry Bonds hit so many home runs not because of juiced up balls or juiced up pitchers, but because he himself used steroids to enhance his own performance. Even when the variable of juiced up balls is introduced, he would never have hit so many home runs had he not juiced himself up.
Runawayslave, yes he's innocent until proven guilty, but maybe you missed it when Barry Bonds admitted using "clear," which, at the time, could not be detected by drug tests. Obviously it's pretty easy not to test positive for steroids if the steroids you have admitted to using can't be detected.
Finally, the fact that steroid use is widespread does not make it honest or right. The great Henry Aaron was the consummate sportsman and set the home run record without juicing himself up. He is someone I wouldn't mind my kids looking up to because he played by the rules. Barry Bonds did not play by the rules, therefore he is not worthy of the respect I have for Aaron. Anyone who doesn't play fair, whether by juicing themselves up or betting (anybody remember Pete Rose?) or by losing games intentionally (ever heard of the Black Sox scandal?), is not someone I would encourage my kids to look up to.
This so-called record will remain tainted until someone who plays by the rules comes along and sets a new record. As long as Bonds holds it, it can't possibly be considered legitimate.
And Hangingbals, there is probably some validity to what you're saying, but they're called performance-enhancing drugs for a reason. Barry Bonds hit so many home runs not because of juiced up balls or juiced up pitchers, but because he himself used steroids to enhance his own performance. Even when the variable of juiced up balls is introduced, he would never have hit so many home runs had he not juiced himself up.
Runawayslave, yes he's innocent until proven guilty, but maybe you missed it when Barry Bonds admitted using "clear," which, at the time, could not be detected by drug tests. Obviously it's pretty easy not to test positive for steroids if the steroids you have admitted to using can't be detected.
Finally, the fact that steroid use is widespread does not make it honest or right. The great Henry Aaron was the consummate sportsman and set the home run record without juicing himself up. He is someone I wouldn't mind my kids looking up to because he played by the rules. Barry Bonds did not play by the rules, therefore he is not worthy of the respect I have for Aaron. Anyone who doesn't play fair, whether by juicing themselves up or betting (anybody remember Pete Rose?) or by losing games intentionally (ever heard of the Black Sox scandal?), is not someone I would encourage my kids to look up to.
This so-called record will remain tainted until someone who plays by the rules comes along and sets a new record. As long as Bonds holds it, it can't possibly be considered legitimate.
<font size="4">Aaron Dignifies Homerun with Touch of Class</font size>
New York Post
By Mike Vaccaro
August 8, 2007
In the end, we should have known.
We should have known that after all the joyless weeks, months and years leading up to that moment at 11:52 p.m. Eastern time last night, the moment Barry Bonds sent career home run No. 756 into the San Francisco night, there would be only one man capable of salvaging the moment’s dignity, and restoring a touch of honor to a chase that bore so little of it.
We should have known Hank Aaron would be there last night, in the final moments of Aug. 7, 2007, in the same way he was there on the evening of April 8, 1974 - the way he’s been there, in the back of our consciousness but the front of our conscience, ever since.
He’d said he wasn’t going to be there when Barry Bonds passed him on the all-time home-run list, and we assumed that meant he was going to ignore the event, bypass the moment, pretend that Barry Bonds, baseball’s thousand-pound pink elephant, was nowhere near the room.
We should have known better. Because throughout a most extraordinary baseball life, Hank Aaron has made each room he ever entered better, inside baseball and out, as a player, as an executive, as a man.
“I would like to offer my congratulations to Barry Bonds,’’ Hank Aaron said, his splendid visage filling an enormous video board in center field at AT&T Park.
And there it was. There he was. Of course he was.
Bonds had just completed his 360-foot tour of the bases, had just sent AT&T Park into an electric frenzy. He’d kissed his son and hugged his godfather, Willie Mays, who clutched a microphone, and then the stadium announcer asked everyone to turn to the message board for a “very special announcement.’’
In that moment, you knew what was coming. You knew who was going to make that announcement. No man has ever endured what Hank Aaron endured in the winter of 1973 and the spring of 1974, absorbing a torrent of hate no man should ever know first-hand. Maybe Bonds has tasted a little of that as he inched closer to Aaron’s record, as the national steroid backlash enveloped him in every ballpark he walked into save for AT&T Park.
There was only one man who could offer him the kind of absolution he craved.
And Hank Aaron did that. He wasn’t there in person, staying true to his word. But he was there in spirit, and now he was there on the scoreboard, sending an essential message: If Aaron can recognize 756 as an official number, then maybe there’s no reason anyone else should feel the need to embargo it.
“It is a great accomplishment,’’ Aaron said, his words measured but eloquent, “which requires skill, longevity and determination. Throughout the past century, the home run has held a special place in baseball. I have been privileged to hold that record for 33 years.’’
The ballpark exploded. Bonds wept. He couldn’t possibly have been alone.
“I move over now,’’ Hank Aaron said, “and offer my best wishes.’’
More cheers. More tears. And one more parting thought from Hank Aaron:
“My hope today, as it was that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dream.’’
And that was it. That was that. One more time, Hank Aaron rose above the rancor, above the clamor, above the noisy rhetoric and noisier debate. One more time, he showed the world just how far a little dignity can go.
So maybe it wasn’t a coincidence that everything about this moment so dreaded for so long went much better than we feared it would. There was Mike Bacsik, the Nationals pitcher, who not only fed Bonds a 3-and-2 strike when so many other pitchers have sought the easier path the past few weeks, but then tipped his cap to Bonds. There was Bonds himself, finally humbled after a lifetime of bluster and bellicosity.
And, of course, there was Hank Aaron. The record may not belong to him any longer. But something else, something better, surely does. One more time, he has the baseball nation’s esteem. May he never lose that. Ever.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0808200...r_with_touch_of_class_sports_mike_vaccaro.htm
New York Post
By Mike Vaccaro
August 8, 2007
In the end, we should have known.
We should have known that after all the joyless weeks, months and years leading up to that moment at 11:52 p.m. Eastern time last night, the moment Barry Bonds sent career home run No. 756 into the San Francisco night, there would be only one man capable of salvaging the moment’s dignity, and restoring a touch of honor to a chase that bore so little of it.
We should have known Hank Aaron would be there last night, in the final moments of Aug. 7, 2007, in the same way he was there on the evening of April 8, 1974 - the way he’s been there, in the back of our consciousness but the front of our conscience, ever since.
He’d said he wasn’t going to be there when Barry Bonds passed him on the all-time home-run list, and we assumed that meant he was going to ignore the event, bypass the moment, pretend that Barry Bonds, baseball’s thousand-pound pink elephant, was nowhere near the room.
We should have known better. Because throughout a most extraordinary baseball life, Hank Aaron has made each room he ever entered better, inside baseball and out, as a player, as an executive, as a man.
“I would like to offer my congratulations to Barry Bonds,’’ Hank Aaron said, his splendid visage filling an enormous video board in center field at AT&T Park.
And there it was. There he was. Of course he was.
Bonds had just completed his 360-foot tour of the bases, had just sent AT&T Park into an electric frenzy. He’d kissed his son and hugged his godfather, Willie Mays, who clutched a microphone, and then the stadium announcer asked everyone to turn to the message board for a “very special announcement.’’
In that moment, you knew what was coming. You knew who was going to make that announcement. No man has ever endured what Hank Aaron endured in the winter of 1973 and the spring of 1974, absorbing a torrent of hate no man should ever know first-hand. Maybe Bonds has tasted a little of that as he inched closer to Aaron’s record, as the national steroid backlash enveloped him in every ballpark he walked into save for AT&T Park.
There was only one man who could offer him the kind of absolution he craved.
And Hank Aaron did that. He wasn’t there in person, staying true to his word. But he was there in spirit, and now he was there on the scoreboard, sending an essential message: If Aaron can recognize 756 as an official number, then maybe there’s no reason anyone else should feel the need to embargo it.
“It is a great accomplishment,’’ Aaron said, his words measured but eloquent, “which requires skill, longevity and determination. Throughout the past century, the home run has held a special place in baseball. I have been privileged to hold that record for 33 years.’’
The ballpark exploded. Bonds wept. He couldn’t possibly have been alone.
“I move over now,’’ Hank Aaron said, “and offer my best wishes.’’
More cheers. More tears. And one more parting thought from Hank Aaron:
“My hope today, as it was that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dream.’’
And that was it. That was that. One more time, Hank Aaron rose above the rancor, above the clamor, above the noisy rhetoric and noisier debate. One more time, he showed the world just how far a little dignity can go.
So maybe it wasn’t a coincidence that everything about this moment so dreaded for so long went much better than we feared it would. There was Mike Bacsik, the Nationals pitcher, who not only fed Bonds a 3-and-2 strike when so many other pitchers have sought the easier path the past few weeks, but then tipped his cap to Bonds. There was Bonds himself, finally humbled after a lifetime of bluster and bellicosity.
And, of course, there was Hank Aaron. The record may not belong to him any longer. But something else, something better, surely does. One more time, he has the baseball nation’s esteem. May he never lose that. Ever.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0808200...r_with_touch_of_class_sports_mike_vaccaro.htm
T
tattedupboi
Guest
dentskins said:"..Baseball memorabilia experts have pegged the ball's value at $400,000 to $500,000. That's well below the $3.3 million fetched by Mark McGwire's 70th home run ball in 1998." (YAHOO)
Congrats to Barry!
Good article Que, on Hammerin' Hank
What failed to get mentioned in that article was that Aaron, just as he had been saying all along, was not present at the game. The speech that was referenced in the article was a prerecorded video that was played only after the homer was hit. In fact, even the commissioner, Bud Selig, was conspicuously absent from the game as well.
I'm willing to bet that whoever paid $3.3 million for McGwire's 70th home run ball is feeling quite the fool right now, that they're holding on to what is essentially a worthless paperweight now. The estimated value of Barry Bonds' ball is just that, an estimate. Some fool will probably pay seven figures for it.
tattedupboi said:
and if it sounds like a bitter white guy, acts like a bitter white guy, and talks like a bitter white guy, then we have no choice but to conclude that you're an undercover bitter white guy.
Bonds won, you lost. Ha ha!!!!
T
tattedupboi
Guest
KingTaharqa said:and if it sounds like a bitter white guy, acts like a bitter white guy, and talks like a bitter white guy, then we have no choice but to conclude that you're an undercover bitter white guy.
Bonds won, you lost. Ha ha!!!!
Maybe you missed my earlier post in which I said that Bonds is a disgrace to my race (hint, hint). Nothing about me is white at all, sir. If you and Brill consider my refusal to give props to a cheater as reason to call me a hater, then I'm guilty as charged. You can throw this in my face all you want, but fifteen years from now when Bonds still has not won a World Series or been voted into the Hall of Fame, we'll see who the real winners and losers are. No, I'm not gonna laugh or be proud of it either, because as far as I'm concerned, baseball will be better off not voting him in.
Curious to see whether you will be as boistrous about cheaters
with the NBA referee who was found GUILTY of cheating in NBA
games and used the shit to benefit his own pockets and the pockets
of whoever is running the gambling industry(s) in this country
with the NBA referee who was found GUILTY of cheating in NBA
games and used the shit to benefit his own pockets and the pockets
of whoever is running the gambling industry(s) in this country
Just heard a report (on the radio.....no links yet) that Bud Selig
will NOT suspend Jason Giambi....an ADMITTED steroid user
Incidentally, since he cam eout the closet, his potential HALL OF
FAME numbers (remember when he was called "The Natural?) have
been WAAAAAY down
and he's about 10-12 years younger than Bonds
will NOT suspend Jason Giambi....an ADMITTED steroid user
Incidentally, since he cam eout the closet, his potential HALL OF
FAME numbers (remember when he was called "The Natural?) have
been WAAAAAY down
and he's about 10-12 years younger than Bonds
T
tattedupboi
Guest
Since the topic of this particular thread is the legitimacy or illegitimacy of Bonds' home run chase, I did not feel that this was the place to be discussing the Tim Donaghy betting scandal. But since it and speculation about how I feel about it are now being discussed, I'll be glad to share my thoughts on it. Even without having seen any of the evidence yet, I feel he is a guilty man by virtue of the fact that he has entered a plea of guilty. Even more so than Bonds, this man's cheating has had the potential to influence the outcome of games depending on the calls he makes. He has gone far beyond anything Bonds has ever done by playing God and he should be dealt with harshly.
This may come as a surprise to everyone on this board, but I believe that while Donaghy deserves prison time, I also believe that Bonds doesn't. Bonds cheated, but didn't necessarily break any laws (remember, the "clear" he admitted to taking, despite being a steroid that no test could detect before 2003, was given to him; whoever gave it to him is the person who broke the law). I have always felt that what a person puts into their own bodies (even illegal drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, or anabolic steroids) is their own personal choice, as long as they don't put other people's lives, liberty, or property (or, in Bonds' case, a sacred record) in jeopardy to pursue it. Since Bonds broke no laws, major league baseball, and not the government, must be allowed to decide how to best deal with this matter.
Finally, if anyone wants to know how I or anyone else feels about the referee scandal, the question should have been posed in a separate thread about that subject, not in this thread, which is about a totally different subject. Thank you and God bless you all.
This may come as a surprise to everyone on this board, but I believe that while Donaghy deserves prison time, I also believe that Bonds doesn't. Bonds cheated, but didn't necessarily break any laws (remember, the "clear" he admitted to taking, despite being a steroid that no test could detect before 2003, was given to him; whoever gave it to him is the person who broke the law). I have always felt that what a person puts into their own bodies (even illegal drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, or anabolic steroids) is their own personal choice, as long as they don't put other people's lives, liberty, or property (or, in Bonds' case, a sacred record) in jeopardy to pursue it. Since Bonds broke no laws, major league baseball, and not the government, must be allowed to decide how to best deal with this matter.
Finally, if anyone wants to know how I or anyone else feels about the referee scandal, the question should have been posed in a separate thread about that subject, not in this thread, which is about a totally different subject. Thank you and God bless you all.
JASON GIAMBI....PAID INFORMANT
Giambi no-punishment decision fine -- if it loosens more lips
By JIM LITKE, AP Sports Columnist
August 17, 2007
We could have done without commissioner Bud Selig's self-serving plug on behalf of Jason Giambi and his charitable work.
Considering that George Steinbrenner is paying the Yankee slugger $23 million this season for what amounts to a part-time job -- injuries have limited Giambi to less than half of New York's games -- giving something back is not just the right thing do, it's practically an obligation.
That said, Selig made the right call Thursday letting Giambi off with time served and the sting of public scorn for what was, after all, a nearly four-year-old admission that he used performance-enhancing drugs. Giambi owned up to that during a federal grand jury appearance in the BALCO investigation in the winter of 2003, then apologized publicly -- sort of, anyway -- at the start of spring training a little over a year later.
We don't know how much more he said to Selig's hand-picked steroids investigator, former Sen. George Mitchell, during their recent meeting. But with the commissioner's threat of further discipline hanging over Giambi's head, his cooperation apparently was enough -- once Selig factored in the big lug's charitable instincts.
"He's doing a lot of public-service work, and I think that's terribly important," Selig said from an owners' meeting in Toronto. "I think it's more important for us to keep getting the message out. He was, I thought, very frank and candid with Sen. Mitchell, at least that was the senator's conclusion. Given everything, this is an appropriate decision."
Whether it's a smart one as well won't be known unless or until more of Giambi's fellow users agree to come forward and share what they know about the game's supersized era. The message has been getting out for nearly a half-dozen years now, and the best guess on the number of juicers might still be the 50 percent figure Jose Canseco parlayed into a best-seller.
Punishment isn't the goal of Mitchell's open-ended investigation, nor should it be. Otherwise, Mitchell would be going after the cheaters who were already caught, like Rafael Palmeiro, or Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, who raised more questions than answers during an appearance before a senate committee.
Besides, the feds are still sifting through the evidence collected after busting former Diamondback pitcher Jason Grimsley and Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski. For the moment, let's leave the question of determining appropriate penalties to them.
The rest of us are already resigned to the fact that the last 15 years of baseball have been juiced. What we want to know, more than how many ballplayers should be punished, is how many were juiced.
Baseball is always touting its tradition and ties to the past, how the chance to compare the pitchers and hitters from different eras links one generation of fans to the next. But as the ambivalence over Barry Bonds' home-run trots make increasingly clear, most of us regard that century-old tie to the past as hanging now by a few slender threads. If the Mitchell commission collects enough evidence to provide some context, we can make our own decisions on whether it's worth mending.
The problem right now is that Giambi is the only ballplayer who's been compelled to unburden himself. By taking any further punishment off the table, Selig might be able to coax other players to do the same. It's the only reason to give Mitchell more time to complete a thankless job.
Skeptics never expected that the former senator's investigation would amount to much. Selig has ordered club executives and general managers and perhaps even a few owners to talk to Mitchell, but the guess here is that most of them said they had plenty of suspicions, but no proof. If that's all that Mitchell concludes, then Selig, too, can plausibly deny that he knew there was a problem, let alone a supersized one.
What we do know is that during this era, everybody in the game was focused on squeezing every last dollar out of the game. The long ball was like a gift from heaven after the disenchantment sown by the strike and canceled 1994 season. Ballplayers, front-office people and owners did everything within the rules to keep them flying into the seats.
Most of the new ballparks that were built since then had short home-run porches and several owners sought, and received, exemptions from Selig to make them shorter still. The salary scale for middle-infielders who hit home runs was as bulked-up as the players themselves.
Here's hoping that Giambi wasn't the only one who took something out of those oversized pay envelopes and gave it to a charity or two. Or that he's the only one willing to sit down with Mitchell and spill the beans about some of what he knows.
It hardly seems like too much to ask, especially now that the commissioner is in such a charitable mood.
Jim Litke is a national sports columnist for The Associated Press. Write to him at jlitke@ap.org.
Updated on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 4:34 am, EDT
Giambi no-punishment decision fine -- if it loosens more lips
By JIM LITKE, AP Sports Columnist
August 17, 2007
We could have done without commissioner Bud Selig's self-serving plug on behalf of Jason Giambi and his charitable work.
Considering that George Steinbrenner is paying the Yankee slugger $23 million this season for what amounts to a part-time job -- injuries have limited Giambi to less than half of New York's games -- giving something back is not just the right thing do, it's practically an obligation.
That said, Selig made the right call Thursday letting Giambi off with time served and the sting of public scorn for what was, after all, a nearly four-year-old admission that he used performance-enhancing drugs. Giambi owned up to that during a federal grand jury appearance in the BALCO investigation in the winter of 2003, then apologized publicly -- sort of, anyway -- at the start of spring training a little over a year later.
We don't know how much more he said to Selig's hand-picked steroids investigator, former Sen. George Mitchell, during their recent meeting. But with the commissioner's threat of further discipline hanging over Giambi's head, his cooperation apparently was enough -- once Selig factored in the big lug's charitable instincts.
"He's doing a lot of public-service work, and I think that's terribly important," Selig said from an owners' meeting in Toronto. "I think it's more important for us to keep getting the message out. He was, I thought, very frank and candid with Sen. Mitchell, at least that was the senator's conclusion. Given everything, this is an appropriate decision."
Whether it's a smart one as well won't be known unless or until more of Giambi's fellow users agree to come forward and share what they know about the game's supersized era. The message has been getting out for nearly a half-dozen years now, and the best guess on the number of juicers might still be the 50 percent figure Jose Canseco parlayed into a best-seller.
Punishment isn't the goal of Mitchell's open-ended investigation, nor should it be. Otherwise, Mitchell would be going after the cheaters who were already caught, like Rafael Palmeiro, or Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, who raised more questions than answers during an appearance before a senate committee.
Besides, the feds are still sifting through the evidence collected after busting former Diamondback pitcher Jason Grimsley and Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski. For the moment, let's leave the question of determining appropriate penalties to them.
The rest of us are already resigned to the fact that the last 15 years of baseball have been juiced. What we want to know, more than how many ballplayers should be punished, is how many were juiced.
Baseball is always touting its tradition and ties to the past, how the chance to compare the pitchers and hitters from different eras links one generation of fans to the next. But as the ambivalence over Barry Bonds' home-run trots make increasingly clear, most of us regard that century-old tie to the past as hanging now by a few slender threads. If the Mitchell commission collects enough evidence to provide some context, we can make our own decisions on whether it's worth mending.
The problem right now is that Giambi is the only ballplayer who's been compelled to unburden himself. By taking any further punishment off the table, Selig might be able to coax other players to do the same. It's the only reason to give Mitchell more time to complete a thankless job.
Skeptics never expected that the former senator's investigation would amount to much. Selig has ordered club executives and general managers and perhaps even a few owners to talk to Mitchell, but the guess here is that most of them said they had plenty of suspicions, but no proof. If that's all that Mitchell concludes, then Selig, too, can plausibly deny that he knew there was a problem, let alone a supersized one.
What we do know is that during this era, everybody in the game was focused on squeezing every last dollar out of the game. The long ball was like a gift from heaven after the disenchantment sown by the strike and canceled 1994 season. Ballplayers, front-office people and owners did everything within the rules to keep them flying into the seats.
Most of the new ballparks that were built since then had short home-run porches and several owners sought, and received, exemptions from Selig to make them shorter still. The salary scale for middle-infielders who hit home runs was as bulked-up as the players themselves.
Here's hoping that Giambi wasn't the only one who took something out of those oversized pay envelopes and gave it to a charity or two. Or that he's the only one willing to sit down with Mitchell and spill the beans about some of what he knows.
It hardly seems like too much to ask, especially now that the commissioner is in such a charitable mood.
Jim Litke is a national sports columnist for The Associated Press. Write to him at jlitke@ap.org.
Updated on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 4:34 am, EDT
These guys remind me of the Comisky character in the movie
"Eight Men Out" who was just so outraged that the players who
he (and the other owners) were swindling would take it upon
themselves to cut a deal so they could get paid a decent wage
for once
"Eight Men Out" who was just so outraged that the players who
he (and the other owners) were swindling would take it upon
themselves to cut a deal so they could get paid a decent wage
for once
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