American Bridge Built In China Then Shipped To California

[SPECTRE1]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Because they don't own the company ? ? ? ya think , . , .


If its dictatorship you're complaining of, why are you proposing a dictatorship of the proletariat

You own the company; however, you are not given a voice for your ownership stake. When the bank or government gives them a loan from your bank account. Pension funds, or when the government gives tax breaks. The 'owner' or investor is getting their money from you some way.

Should people that pay the most taxes or loans money to the government decide who should be the president or in Congress? No... Companies should embody the principle of this country.

I am not saying that all companies need to switch to that style, let them compete, I bet a worker owned company with the right support would dust an investor controlled company. There is nothing stopping workers from buying ownership stake in a public company.

Plus you won't have job flight to foreign countries.

 

[QueEx]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

You own the company; however, you are not given a voice for your ownership stake. When the bank or government gives them a loan from your bank account. Pension funds, or when the government gives tax breaks. The 'owner' or investor is getting their money from you some way.

IF you own the company, you control the board of directors. As such owner, you hold ALL of the shares and with those share you decide (by appointment or election) who comprises the board.

When the bank or government gives them a loan from your bank account.

I'm not understanding what you mean here.

Pension funds, or when the government gives tax breaks. The 'owner' or investor is getting their money from you some way.

Again, not understanding what you mean here.

Should people that pay the most taxes or loans money to the government decide who should be the president or in Congress?

If you mean should their BIGGER money decide more than most people's LESSER money, the answer obviously is no. From purely a one-man, one-vote perspective, those who pay the most taxes vote goes no further than one who pays no taxes, if the no-taxpayer actually gets out and votes.

If I didn't answer your question with the above, then I just don't get what you're talking about -- but I'm listening.

I am not saying that all companies need to switch to that style, let them compete, I bet a worker owned company with the right support would dust an investor controlled company. Plus you won't have job flight to foreign countries.

Bro, personally, I'm not down with what appears to me to be your argument in chief: private property can just be confiscated and given to someone else. If I have you wrong, I apologize and await your clarification.

I should also point out that I'm not a pure capitalist, either. I don't believe that capitalism at its purest is anywhere near as great as what its protagonist say it is, but I don't believe that its alternatives, i.e., socialism, communism, etc., are either. Like most things, the answers tend to lie somewhere in between and, like most things left to human hands and interaction, regulation will be required.

Qx

 

[QueEx]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Capitalism is the economic engine that made this country great but it's also the same engine that led to a lot of it's ills, acknowledging it's flaws isn't a sign of hostility as much as it is a sign of responsibility.

I endorse this message.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Loss of freedom has always lead to great injustice.

Such was the argument the slaveholders used.

 

[SPECTRE1]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

The best person(s) should manage a company, which in most cases will be the workers. In many companies, contributed capital may not have voice in the operations of company such as board selection and CEO. Many investors accept this condition and provide capital to companies, why can't investors accept a company run by workers?

The founder of many companies retain a majority of the voting stock which allows them to control the company without providing any capital . All the investor/owner wants is to have the best person managing the company, whether management, workers voting, or a company founder having most of the voting stock.

 

[QueEx]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

The best person(s) should manage a company, which in most cases will be the workers. In many companies, contributed capital may not have voice in the operations of company such as board selection and CEO. Many investors accept this condition and provide capital to companies, why can't investors accept a company run by workers?

Why do you make the assumption that workers, just because they are workers, are better managers of a company ? ? ? Am I to let my secretaries and paralegals, just up an run my firm ??? Are you fucking serious

The founder of many companies retain a majority of the voting stock which allows them to control the company without providing any capital. All the investor/owner wants is to have the best person managing the company, whether management, workers voting, or a company founder having most of the voting stock.

You're right in part and, I believe, confusing shit in part.

You're right that investor/owners typically have no part in the operation of the company, i.e., the limited partners in an Ltd. Partnership. But it was understood ab initio that the investor's role would be so limited. He's merely looking for a return and, in all likelihood, has no idea how to run the particular business. But, don't get this confused with your "Workers-Run-The-Company" theory. Surely, there may be workers with that type knowledge/skill -- but thats not the norm. Besides, if they want to run a company, run their own -- but they damn sure can get hired and then expect, merely because they're workers, that they should be running shit.

 

[nittie]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

First define capitalism is it energy or is it matter those are the only forces in this world.

 

[Lamarr]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Capitalism doesn't kill companies............Incompetence does!

Remeber Solyndra was manufacturing solar panels for $6 and selling them for $3

 

[thoughtone]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Capitalism doesn't kill companies............Incompetence does!

Remeber Solyndra was manufacturing solar panels for $6 and selling them for $3

You sure are right in line with that current republican talking point. Faux Snooze is using it a lot lately. You must be back on Hannity's board.

 

[code_pirahna]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

You sure are right in line with that current republican talking point. Faux Snooze is using it a lot lately. You must be back on Hannity's board.

This....

too many Repugs on here....

fuck the republicans....stop lying and run on your record...

oh i forgot yall gave us Bush and a recession.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Capitalism doesn't kill companies............Incompetence does!

Remeber Solyndra was manufacturing solar panels for $6 and selling them for $3

Solyndra was manufacturing solar panels for $6 and selling them for $3

Isn't that what the Chinese are doing? Actually they are doing iit with the help of Romney and anti regulation libertarians.

 

[Lamarr]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

You sure are right in line with that current republican talking point. Faux Snooze is using it a lot lately. You must be back on Hannity's board.

i aint got cable, so f*ck Fox News. Attack the messenger & not the message.

Hell, a chimpanzee knows you can't stay in business by selling a $6 product for $3.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

i aint got cable, so f*ck Fox News. Attack the messenger & not the message.

Hell, a chimpanzee knows you can't stay in business by selling a $6 product for $3.

You may not have cable, but you have internet.

 

[nittie]

Re: How capitalism kills companies

Capitalism is not just about the flow of goods and services. It is also a philosophy which makes it a energy or power. It is the power that allows 1 percent to control 99 percent. It is the power that enslaves thru dependency and opinion. That is how the people who understand the principles keep themselves in power. Observe how Perry and Gingrich are willing to undermine the Republican commandment of not attacking other Reps just to beat Romney and another picture of capitalism or power emerges.

 

[thoughtone]

source: Daily Kos

California discovers hidden price tag of outsourcing Bay Bridge to China

The California Department of Transportation's decision to save money by hiring a Chinese company that had never built a bridge to build major parts of the new San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge was troubling to begin with. A major Sacramento Bee investigation pushes it from troubling to terrifying. The article, by Charles Piller, details how Caltrans management was determined to stick with Chinese contractor ZPMC even as Caltrans inspectors repeatedly caught the company making significant mistakes and failing on quality control measures:

But committee chair Sen. Mark DeSaulnier, D-Concord, suggested that Caltrans had tried to cover up serious problems with “a deliberate and willful ... attempt to obfuscate.”

His comments were echoed by experts inside and outside Caltrans – some of whom supervised the welding and warned of serious flaws. They said the state bought a bridge likely to require extraordinary and costly maintenance. [...]

Professional engineers, he said, must report “any irregularities that could affect public welfare.” That’s what [Doug Coe, a Caltrans engineer who worked on the project in China] and his colleagues did.

“But (Caltrans) has the prerogative to accept these (cracked or suspect parts), ‘fit for purpose,’ ” Coe said. That’s what Caltrans managers did.
​

The whole thing is really worth a read, but the bottom line is this: Caltrans started out by hiring an inexperienced company labeled as "high risk" and given only a contingent pass by an expert to build parts of a major bridge in an earthquake-prone location. Then, when problems were found by Caltrans' own engineers, its managers said they weren't really problems and threw more money at the project, leading to cost and time overruns after having hired ZPMC because it would supposedly be cheap and fast. Caltrans is insisting that the bridge is safe despite what Piller describes as a "litany of problems" including "suspect foundation concrete, broken anchor rods and rust on the suspension span’s main cable." The problem is, it's not clear Bay Area commuters should believe that.