48÷2(9+3) = ????

Your Answer?


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It's on page 2 and I will post it here since you don't want to....
http://www.purplemath.com/modules/orderops2.htm
This next example displays an issue that almost never arises but, when it does, there seems to be no end to the arguing.
Simplify 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1.
16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 6] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[2] + 1 (**)
= 16 ÷ 4 + 1
= 4 + 1
= 5

The confusing part in the above calculation is how "16 divided by 2[2] + 1" (in the line marked with the double-star) becomes "16 divided by 4 + 1", instead of "8 times by 2 + 1". That's because, even though multiplication and division are at the same level (so the eft-to-right rule should apply), parentheses outrank division, so the first 2 goes with the [2], rather than with the "16 divided by". That is, multiplication that is indicated by placement against parentheses (or brackets, etc) is "stronger" than "regular" multiplication. Typesetting the entire problem in a graphing calculator verifies this hierarchy:

order12.gif


Note that different software will process this differently; even different models of Texas Instruments graphing calculators will process this differently. In cases of ambiguity, be very careful of your parentheses, and make your meaning clear. The general consensus among math people is that "multiplication by juxtaposition" (that is, multiplying by just putting things next to each other, rather than using the "×" sign) indicates that the juxtaposed values must be multiplied together before processing other operations. But not all software is programmed this way, and sometimes teachers view things differently. If in doubt, ask!
(And please do not send me an e-mail either asking for or else proffering a definitive verdict on this issue. As far as I know, there is no such final verdict. And telling me to do this your way will not solve the issue!)
************************************
In summary, this is a problem where you can use your brain to solve it. But if you choose to use a device, please know how to use the device. Thanks.
Props to a-hole18 who once thought the answer was 288, but took the time to learn for himself, and has posted that the solution is 2. This was after contacting a person at a website where the software is giving the answer as 288 :yes: this is how you learn and become a better person. I am sure that if those who got the correct answer had been proven wrong, they would have accepted it. No matter which way you learned, there are still parentheses in the equation and you must deal with those first and get rid of them BEFORE YOU MOVE ON. Okay horses? ;)
 
Simply unbelievable!

A math question on a porn board that has gone 36 pages deep?!?

I doubt if Obama was caught having sex with Jenna Jameson would that thread go this deep!

I'm with you tre2k4, I've seen different examples pop up but almost none are written out like this problem, and the two that I've seen that were both said that seeing problems exactly like this are rare and that math teachers say the problem should be presented better.

Worse yet, I've seen a site or two say don't e-mail them for the answer, while they will give an answer they won't back it up, wtf is that?!?
 
Props to a-hole18 who once thought the answer was 288, but took the time to learn for himself, and has posted that the solution is 2. This was after contacting a person at a website where the software is giving the answer as 288 :yes: this is how you learn and become a better person. I am sure that if those who got the correct answer had been proven wrong, they would have accepted it. No matter which way you learned, there are still parentheses in the equation and you must deal with those first and get rid of them BEFORE YOU MOVE ON. Okay horses? ;)

Even after what I posted you still dont get it. :smh:

Dispute this.....
Knowing the source of question would lead me to believe its 288.
Its all about convention. Of course you can get 2 from this equation but from my research and the evidence I presented, I say its 288


Its too many conflicting examples. After looking at this video, the way she did it, you would get 288 applying the same method. PEMDA is part of the simplifying process. The 48 is outside the bracket as well. Because the 2 is behind the division sign, it must take heed to it first before you multiply. Distribution is a form of multiplication. If there is any scholarly evidence that this form of multiplication comes before Dividing using the rules of PEMDA,then I need to see it.
How is 48÷2(9+3)

different from

48
---(9+3)
2

If they are different, then its because of the / and ÷.

You cant say that 2(x) and 2*(x) are never the same because there some instance they are.

There reason people are getting two different answers is simply because of assumptions and/or convention. This is why 2 and 288 are both right.

Flipside
If the 2 have to cater to (9+3), its because of the () are still there. So people think because its still there you have to multiply it times 2. PEMDA doesnt specify anything about a number outside of () because usually there is a sign if front of it.

8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(12)+2

So do you have to subtract it first because the () are still there? Or do you divide first?



8/4-(9+3)(2)
=8/4-(9+3)(2)
=8/4-(12)(2)

Do you have to multiply first or divide first?

It seems like the higher precedence for implied multiplication is relative to calculators. So I dont know if this can be a strong argument unless its stated in text or sources unrelated to how a calculator interprets equations.
aP7Gg.jpg

Entering this equation into
Ada
C
C++
Excel
Fortran
Java
PL/1
VBA
SNOBOL
VBA

Will give you 288




http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/48293

The only way to find out the true answer is to wait to hear from the teacher who assigned this problem then we will know what their intention was.

From reading the numerous responses where people didnt know that Multiplication and Division are the same rank and the fact that not too many people know that implied multiplication has higher precedence over division (in some cases) and this problem comes a 6th grade class, the answer has to be 288.


Without the source of the question, there is really no answer to this question that people can agree on. I was wrong earlier, the problem is ambiguous.

Heres a post I found that is 9 yrs old that speaks of the same thing


http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/gather/main/messages/15460.html

:lol:


Order of Operations

Date: 05/19/99 at 13:54:24
From: Stephanie Wu and Meghan Heil
Subject: Algebraic expressions and order of operation

The problem was presented like this:

a = 1.56
b = 1.2
x = 7.2
y = 0.2

ax/by = ?

Here are two ways that I solved it:

1) I first rewrote the problem as [1.56(7.2)/ 1.2](0.2). Second, a was
multiplied by x. The product was 11.232. Then, since no parentheses
were present, I followed the order of operations and divided 11.232 by
b, which was 1.2. The quotient was 9.36. Then I multiplied 9.36 by y,
which was 0.2. The final answer was 1.872.

2) The other way, the first thing I did was multiply a by x. The
product, which was 11.232, was set aside for the time being. Then b
was multiplied by y, which gave the product of 0.24. The problem was
now solved by dividing 11.232 (or ax) by 0.24 (or by) to reach a final
answer of 46.8.

Can you please tell us which answer is correct and why?

Date: 05/19/99 at 17:03:49
From: Doctor Peterson
Subject: Re: Algebraic expressions and order of operation

Hi, Stephanie and Meghan.

You are not alone in wondering about this. We have had several other
questions about expressions similar to yours, from confused teachers
and students who have found that different books or teachers have
different answers, and even calculators disagree.

As written, your expression

ax/by

should be evaluated left to right: a times x, divided by b, times y.
The multiplication is not done before the division, but both are done
in the order they appear. Your first solution is right.

Some texts make a rule, as in your second solution, that
multiplication without a symbol ("implied multiplication") should be
done before any other operations in an expression, including "explicit
multiplication" using a symbol. Following this rule, you would
multiply a by x, then multiply b and y, then divide one by the other.
Some (probably most) texts don't mention such a rule - but some of
those may use it without saying so, which is far worse.

I don't know of a general rule among mathematicians that implied
multiplication should be done before explicit multiplication. As far
as I'm concerned, all multiplications fit in the same place in the
order of operations. It's not an unreasonable rule, though, since it
does seem that implied multiplication ties the operands together more
tightly, at least visually; but the idea of Order of Operations (or
precedence, as it is called in the computer world) is supposed to be
to ensure that everyone will interpret an otherwise ambiguous
expression the same way - so if some texts change the rules, or if
people do what feels natural, the purpose has been lost.

The problem here is that the expression looks as if it were meant to
be

ax
----
by

In the Dr. Math FAQ about writing math in e-mail, one of our
recommendations is to use parentheses wherever possible to avoid
ambiguity, even where the rules should make it clear, because it can
be easy to forget them in some situations:

http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.typing.math.html

(click on the Fractions link).

So in e-mail we would write it like this:

ax/(by) or (ax/b)*y

depending on what is intended.

In my research for another Dr. Math "patient," I found that some
calculators have experimented with this rule. Calculators have
somewhat different needs than mathematicians, since they have to take
input linearly, one character after another, so they are forced to
make a decision about it. On the TI Web site I learned that they
deliberately put this "feature" into the TI 82, and then took it out
of the TI 83, probably because they decided it was not a standard rule
and would confuse people. Take a look at their explanation:

http://www.ti.com/calc/docs/faq/83faq039.htm

They also talk about a similar issue for exponentiation of the form
a^b^c, and give the same conclusion we give: always use parentheses
where a statement is ambiguous without special rules:

http://www.ti.com/calc/docs/faq/83faq058.htm

So to answer your question, I think both answers can be considered
right - which means, of course, that the question itself is wrong. I
prefer the standard way (your first answer) when talking to students,
unless their own text gives the "implicit multiplication first" rule;
but in practice if I came across that expression, I would probably
first check where it came from to see if I could tell what was
intended. The main lesson to learn is not which rule to follow, but
how to avoid ambiguity in what you write yourself. Don't give other
people this kind of trouble.

- Doctor Peterson, The Math Forum
http://mathforum.org/dr.math/

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/54341.html

This has to do with what I always called implied multiplication, but don't see that phrase anywhere. Presenting two problems: (DS stands for the traditional division symbol that I do not know how to make with out equation editor) 105 DS ab where a=3 and b=5 Do you multiple 5 by 3 and then divide 105 by that product or do you divide 105 by 3 and then multiply by 5? SEcond problem is 12 DS 2(6-3)+3^2-1. do you multiply 2 by the difference of 6 and 3 first and then divide 12 by that product or do you divide 12 by 2 and then multiply by the 3? I need references, not just opinions. We already have lots of those.

Here, we offer help based on our accumulated knowledge. This is not a free research service. You want references, find them yourself.

Here's what I can offer you.
1. "/" is the accepted symbol for division
2. Multiplication and division have equal precedence.
3. Parentheses have a higher precedence than any arithmetic operator, so expressions in parentheses are always evaluated first.
4. SOME TEXTS (and some calculators) adopt their own rule that binds ab together more tightly than a*b, in effect treating ab as being equivalent to (a*b).

5. By CONVENTION (not by "law") the associativity of multiplication, division, addition and subtraction is left to right. Therefore, in the absence of parentheses, BY CONVENTION, these operations are simply evaluated sequentially from left to right. There is no "mathematical law" that requires this; it is simply a convention that is (nearly?) universally accepted. Without this convention, expressions like 105 / 3 * 5 would simply be ambiguous. There would be no way for people to agree as to how to evaluate such expressions in the absence of parentheses.
6. There is NO SUCH CONVENTION concerning "implied multiplication". SOME PEOPLE choose to say ab => (a*b). Most people would say ab => a*b.

IN MY OPINION, those who take it upon themselves to adopt a "new convention" (which is not a convention because it is not generally agreed upon) do us all a disservice by introducing ambiguity where there was none before. Perhaps a better convention is this: don't use implied multiplication because it is ambiguous.
But unfortunately, that's not a convention either. It's just my opinion.

So (again, in my opinion) "105 DS ab where a=3 and b=5"
=> 105/3*5 = (105/3)*5 = 35*5 = 175

And, "12 DS 2(6-3)+3^2"
=> ((12/2)*(6-3)) + 3^2

http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/gather/main/messages/15460.html
 
Simply unbelievable!

A math question on a porn board that has gone 36 pages deep?!?

I doubt if Obama was caught having sex with Jenna Jameson would that thread go this deep!

I'm with you tre2k4, I've seen different examples pop up but almost none are written out like this problem, and the two that I've seen that were both said that seeing problems exactly like this are rare and that math teachers say the problem should be presented better.

Worse yet, I've seen a site or two say don't e-mail them for the answer, while they will give an answer they won't back it up, wtf is that?!?

It's on page 2 and I will post it here since you don't want to....
http://www.purplemath.com/modules/orderops2.htm
This next example displays an issue that almost never arises but, when it does, there seems to be no end to the arguing.
Simplify 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1.
16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 6] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[2] + 1 (**)
= 16 ÷ 4 + 1
= 4 + 1
= 5

The confusing part in the above calculation is how "16 divided by 2[2] + 1" (in the line marked with the double-star) becomes "16 divided by 4 + 1", instead of "8 times by 2 + 1". That's because, even though multiplication and division are at the same level (so the left-to-right rule should apply), parentheses outrank division, so the first 2 goes with the [2], rather than with the "16 divided by". That is, multiplication that is indicated by placement against parentheses (or brackets, etc) is "stronger" than "regular" multiplication.

the example from that website is nearly identical, but I guess the answer will still be 288, right?
 
Even after what I posted you still dont get it. :smh:

Dispute this.....
what you posted does not compare to the original equation so why would I 'dispute' it? In one of your equations, there are no parentheses. Only multiplication and division....In the second one, there is no division and your order only includes multiplication & addition. In every body's education, multiplication outranks addition. Again, there is nothing to dispute. :)

Now why have you not discussed the example I have posted from purplemath????? :confused:
 
48÷2(9+3) = 288

48÷(2(9+3)) = 2

Since the original question is 48÷2(9+3), I'm rolling with 288.
The definite answer is that it can go either way
It depends on the intention of the teacher who assigned the problem

We dont know if he meant 48/2 * (9+3) or 48/ 2(9+3)

We all agree that you add 9 and 3 first

But we dont know if we multiply 24 times 12 or do 48 divided by 24 because of the ambiguity of the problem.

Im guessing 288 because it came from a 6th grade class. It doesnt mean Im right, it just means Its more than likely the answer due to conventions I think the teacher abides by at that grade level.

8/2-(5+3)+3
=8/2-(8)+3
=????
Depending by the conventions you go by you will get 2 different answers
Some say divide next (the 288 ppl) while others say subtract next (the 2 ppl).

Theres no law saying one is better than the other. But by conventions, most would divide first.
 
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The definite answer is that it can go either way
It depends on the intention of the teacher who assigned the problem

We dont know if he meant 48/2 * (9+3) or 48/ 2(9+3)

We all agree that you add 9 and 3 first

But we dont know if we multiply 24 times 12 or do 48 divided by 24 because of the ambiguity of the problem.

Im guessing 288 because it came from a 6th grade class. It doesnt mean Im right, it just means Its more than likely the answer due to conventions I think the teacher abides by at that grade level.

8/2-(5+3)+3
=8/2-(8)+3
=????
Depending by the conventions you go by you will get 2 different answers
Some say divide next (the 288 ppl) while others say subtract next (the 2 ppl).

Theres no law saying one is better than the other. But by conventions, must would divide first.

This is really the best response in the entire thread.

Much respect to you tre2k4 because you were never trying to prove your point as much as just seeking the 'best' response.
 
what you posted does not compare to the original equation so why would I 'dispute' it? In one of your equations, there are no parentheses. Only multiplication and division....In the second one, there is no division and your order only includes multiplication & addition. In every body's education, multiplication outranks addition. Again, there is nothing to dispute. :)

Now why have you not discussed the example I have posted from purplemath????? :confused:

The example you posted went by their own convention. I guess you dont understand that.
Its based on how you would input that equation into a calculator.

Dont you get the concept of ambiguity or convention?


How do we know that 48÷2(9+3)
Doesnt imply
48
---(9+3)
2
 
This is really the best response in the entire thread.

Much respect to you tre2k4 because you were never trying to prove your point as much as just seeking the 'best' response.

I said this shit from the gate. Cats wanted to argue one side or the other.
 
It can be either one. Go ahead and get your evidence that over turn what I stated. The question is too ambiguous to stick to one answer.

I can't believe that this is still going on. :smh:

That is the answer to me: Ambiguous.
 
A basic algebra problem, though the format of the equation is completely OFF, and look how many still failed miserably. :smh:

BGOL, the homepage of dummies.:lol:
 
48
_____
2(9+3)​

Get 288 out of this. :smh::smh:

I see now yall cant read.

Calculators and some text have their own conventions. I can get 288 from putting the equation into
Ada
C
C++
Excel
Fortran
Java
PL/1
VBA
SNOBOL
VBA
GOOGLE
TI-83

But that doesnt mean its right, it just mean they go by their own set of rules.
 
I said this shit from the gate. Cats wanted to argue one side or the other.

one poster (themainman) perfectly summed this up.... he said it was a psychological test and not a math question. And it really is. Look at how people are so vigorously defending their positions when it is obvious in this case, by the way the problem is written, that you can actually draw two solutions to it.. even though there is a 'best' answer because one is a bit more logically sound as tre2k4 has most clearly articulated several times in this thread. The reality of the matter is the problem is poorly written (without knowing the intentions).
 
This is really the best response in the entire thread.

Much respect to you tre2k4 because you were never trying to prove your point as much as just seeking the 'best' response.

To me is was a little less of the "best" response, more over-analyzing something thats simple out of the gate. I can give you my hypothesis on why I think the sky is really purple. Would that be brilliant just because I tried to prove a point? The sky will still be blue, and the answer to this expression will still be 2.



This remains the "best" response...


Damn mathway was fast as hell with it this is their response

Hello,
It depends on how you set up the problem. If you enter it as 48/2(9+3), it is recognized as the fraction 48/2 times (9+3). This would give the answer 288. If you want the entire "2(9+3)" in the denominator of the fraction, the answer would be 2. If it is written in the book as 48÷2(9+3), then the answer should be 2. If the problem is written as a fraction (a numerator and a denominator with a line in between) and the entire "2(9+3)" is in the denominator, the answer should be 2. Without seeing the book the original problem was written in, I would guess it is one of those two options, both giving 2 as the answer.

Regards,
The Mathway Team
 
The definite answer is that it can go either way
It depends on the intention of the teacher who assigned the problem

We dont know if he meant 48/2 * (9+3) or 48/ 2(9+3)

I can definitely see the ambiguity.

Some people read 48÷2(9+3) = 48/ 2(9+3) which reads as a fraction or
48
----------
2(9+3)

But to me that fraction reads 48÷(2(9+3)) which is different than 48÷2(9+3).

Very interesting.
 
Its 2 by certain conventions and 288 by others.

No one has answered this yet

If the 2 have to cater to (9+3), its because of the () are still there. So people think because its still there you have to multiply it times 2. PEMDA doesnt specify anything about a number outside of () because usually there is a sign if front of it.

8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(12)+2

So do you have to subtract it first because the () are still there? Or do you divide first?



8/4-(9+3)(2)
=8/4-(9+3)(2)
=8/4-(12)(2)

Do you have to multiply first or divide first?
 

Own conversions my ass. They're just doing what you're telling them to, which is to evaluate an invalid equation. Simplification is either something you do with a sheet of paper, or a calculator that understands it.


Like this BASIC MATH Calculator:


http://mathway.com/problem.aspx?p=basicmath


I see now yall cant read.

Calculators and some text have their own conventions. I can get 288 from putting the equation into
Ada
C
C++
Excel
Fortran
Java
PL/1
VBA
SNOBOL
VBA
GOOGLE
TI-83

But that doesnt mean its right, it just mean they go by their own set of rules.
 
I researched to support my answer. If you understand ambiguity and convention then you would understand that it cant be only 2.

If I said the answer was 1 I should be able to back my answer up by displaying evidence and facts.
 
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You're still trying to make it more complicated than it is. When you do it wrong its 288. Whats been explained is /
is different than ÷, but we're using ÷ in this problem which gives the answer 2.


Its 2 by certain conventions and 288 by others.

No one has answered this yet

If the 2 have to cater to (9+3), its because of the () are still there. So people think because its still there you have to multiply it times 2. PEMDA doesnt specify anything about a number outside of () because usually there is a sign if front of it.

8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(12)+2

So do you have to subtract it first because the () are still there? Or do you divide first?



8/4-(9+3)(2)
=8/4-(9+3)(2)
=8/4-(12)(2)

Do you have to multiply first or divide first?
 
^^^
They still don't hear you. (@Nathan. Damn responses are comin in fast)


The poll, the Mathway response, two different variations that people have worked out by hand and ya'll still going back and forth. And yet none of the major naysayers cracked out paper and pen but is continuing to regulate their decisions based on calculating programs.

This is making my head hurt; I thought I was stubborn but this takes the cake.





And for the record the equation does not equal 288 because it's spelled incorrectly.

(48/2)(9+3) = 288
48/2(9+3) = 2
 
/ signifies that 48/2 is a fraction.

÷ signifies that everything after ÷ is the denominator.


The ÷ means the answer to this equation is 2. If you get anything else, the calculator is thinking you mean / and isnt Simplifying.
 
I researched to support my answer. If you understand ambiguity and convention then you would understand that it cant be only 2.

If I said the answer was 1 I should be able to back my answer up by displaying evidence and facts.

I meant cant be only 2.

Someone needs to explain how an ambiguous question can have a definitive answer :lol:
 
To me is was a little less of the "best" response, more over-analyzing something thats simple out of the gate. I can give you my hypothesis on why I think the sky is really purple. Would that be brilliant just because I tried to prove a point? The sky will still be blue, and the answer to this expression will still be 2.
..

Thanks for making my point. The sky is not a material object and so it has no intrinsic color. Clear sky appears to be blue because of sulight scattered by nitrogen.

If you ask a common person that question, they will give blue as the answer.

If you ask meteorologists that question, they will give you the best answer...that the sky literally has no color.

Furthemore, you set up your response with another logical fallacy in that your two choices do not directly comply with this equation and the two options.

The original mathematical equation here as tre2k4 has illustrated, can lead to an inference. There lies the fork in the road and neither direction is an absolute without knowing the intention of the person who created the problem.
 
(8/4) - (12*2)

2 - 24

-22

What about
8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(9+3)+2
=8/4-(12)+2

Conventionally wouldnt you subtract 12 from 8/4 instead of 4-(12)

Lets try it with ÷

What about
8÷4-(9+3)+2
=8÷4-(9+3)+2
=8÷4-(12)+2


8÷4 should be the same as 8/4
 
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Thanks for making my point. Sky is not a material object and so it has no intrinsic color. Clear sky appears to be blue because of sulight scattered by nitrogen.

If you ask a common person that question, they will give blue as the answer.

If you ask meteorologists that question, they will give you the best answer...that the sky literally has no color.

If thats the case, no colors exist. Its all just the product of sunlight. :dunno:
 
If thats the case, no colors exist. Its all just the product of sunlight. :dunno:

No. You don´t understand. The SKY is a not a material object. An APPLE that happens to be RED IS not a material object. Color does exist. It just doesn´t apply in the case with the question about the 'color' of the sky.

Now don´t you understand why things can sometimes be ambigious is not clearly articulated? This should make you rethink this equation.

I know you and followup and some people on the otherside might fight this to the death.

But tre2k4 has continuously given the most rounded and well-thought of responses in this thread. he has the best answer after having researched it thoroughly.
 
Furthemore, you set up your response with another logical fallacy in that your two choices do not directly comply with this equation and the two options.

Complete bullshit, and just another motherfucker trying to disregard 3rd Grade Math and make some shit more difficult than it is.


I guess Simplification doesn't exist, huh?
 
No. You don´t understand. The SKY is a not a material object. An APPLE that happens to be RED IS not a material object. Color does exist. It just doesn´t apply in the case with the question about the 'color' of the sky.

Now don´t you understand why things can sometimes be ambigious is not clearly articulated? This should make you rethink this equation.

Some things are ambiguous. A simple BASIC math problem is not.


Is 2+2 ambiguous as well?
 
I see now yall cant read.

Calculators and some text have their own conventions. I can get 288 from putting the equation into
Ada
C
C++
Excel
Fortran
Java
PL/1
VBA
SNOBOL
VBA
GOOGLE
TI-83

But that doesnt mean its right, it just mean they go by their own set of rules.

Mathway reduces the original equation to this.

The answer is 2 man or you're doing it wrong.
 
Some things are ambiguous. A simple BASIC math problem is not.

tre2k4 explained exactly why it IS ambiguous and that is what the entire fuss is over the internet right now. The way in which is it written allows for interpretation. That is the double-irony of it because math supposedly does not allow for it.

themainman summed this up...this is a pscyhological test and not a math test.

But...I´m gonna let you all keep debating this. I have no chips in the game. peace brotha
 
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