Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Class

[thoughtone]

source: Think Progress

REPORT: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Class

Last week, ThinkProgress documented conservative efforts in twelve states to shift the tax burden onto the middle class even while cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy. In three states, conservatives are going even further, proposing massive estate tax cuts for millionaires even as income inequality is at its worse since the 1920s. Here are the details:

MAINE: Tea Party Gov. Paul LePage’s (I) tax reform package would raise the state’s estate tax exemption from $1 million to $2 million — allowing four hundred of the state’s wealthiest estates to escape taxation. At the same time, the tax plan would raise property taxes on middle class Mainers while freezing health care funding for working parents, cutting money for schools, and raising the retirement age for public workers. Republican legislators want to go even further, and are currently considering eliminating the estate tax altogether.

OHIO: In January, House Speaker William Batchelder (R) called Gov. John Kasich’s (R) proposal to completely eliminate the estate tax one of the Republican-controlled legislature’s “top priorities.” But already, the bill has garnered strong opposition from local governments, who depend on estate tax revenue and are already concerned state spending cuts. Even while finding room for estate tax reductions, Kasich’s proposed budget cuts 25 percent of funding for local schools, $427 million for nursing homes, $1 million for food banks, $12 million from children’s hospitals, and $15.9 million from an adoption program for children with special needs.

NEW JERSEY: In his 2011 budget proposal, Gov. Chris Christie called for raising the state’s estate tax exemption from $675,000 to $1 million even while proposing cuts to the state’s Earned Income Tax Credit and homestead rebates for working poor families. And last year Christie vetoed a bill passed by the Legislature that would have raised taxes on the state’s millionaires to help fund property tax relief for Main Street.
​

Last December, the federal government set the precedent for estate tax cuts when the bi-partisan tax deal signed by President Obama cut the estate tax rate to its second lowest level since 1931.

 

[muckraker10021]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

"Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining"

<img src="http://i.min.us/ibr14o.PNG" width="982" height="608" />

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As republican David Stockman, the Director of the Office of Management and Budget under republican ‘faux-saint’ president Ronald Reagan, recently pointed out on the CBS program “60 Minutes” - he said:
<blockquote>
"In 1985, the top five percent of the households, the wealthiest five percent, had net worth of $8 trillion, which is a lot. Today, after serial bubble after serial bubble, the top five percent have net worth of $40 trillion," he explained. "The top five percent have gained more wealth than the whole human race had created prior to 1980."</blockquote>

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<hr noshade color="#ff0000" size="6"></hr>

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I thought Republicans were against raising taxes.

I know Gunner and some of the Republicans here have a reasonable explanation for this.

 

[Shurnuff]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I thought Republicans were against raising taxes.

I know Gunner and some of the Republicans here have a reasonable explanation for this.

Yes, they strongly believe in that trickle down economics crap!!!

 

[QueEx]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas


States broke?
Maybe they cut taxes too much




McClatchy Newspapers
By Tony Pugh
Monday, March 28, 2011


WASHINGTON — In his new budget proposal, Ohio Republican Gov. John
Kasich calls for extending a generous 21 percent cut in state income
taxes. The measure was originally part of a sweeping 2005 tax overhaul
that abolished the state corporate income tax and phased out a business
property tax.

The tax cuts were supposed to stimulate Ohio's economy and create
jobs. But that never happened once the economy tanked. Instead, the
changes ended up <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">costing Ohio more than $2 billion a year in lost tax
revenue</span>; money that would go a long way toward closing the state's $8
billion budget gap for fiscal year 2012.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">"At least half of our current budget problem is a direct result of the tax
changes we made in 2005.</span> A lot of people don't want to hear that, but
that's the reality. Much of <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">our pain is self-inflicted,"</span> said Zach Schiller,
research director at Policy Matters Ohio, a liberal government-research
group in Cleveland.


Schiller's lament is by no means unique. Across the country, taxpayers jarred by cuts to government jobs and services are reassessing the risks and costs of a variety of tax reductions, exemptions and credits, and the ideology that drives them. <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">States cut taxes in hopes of spurring economic growth, but in state after state, it hasn't worked</span>.

There's no question that mammoth state budget problems resulted largely from falling tax revenues, rising costs and greater demand for state services during the recession. But questionable tax reductions at the state and local level made the budget gaps larger — and resulting spending cuts deeper — than they otherwise would have been in many states.

• A 2008 study by Arizona State University found that that state's structural deficits could be traced to 15 years of tax cuts, mainly income-tax reductions that "were not matched by spending cuts of a commensurate size."

• In Texas, which faces a $27 billion budget deficit over the next two years, about one-third of the shortage stems from a 2006 property tax reduction that was linked to an underperforming business tax.

• In Louisiana, lawmakers essentially passed the largest tax cut in state history by rolling back an income-tax hike for high earners in 2007 and again in 2008.
  
  <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Without those tax reductions, Louisiana wouldn't have had a budget deficit in fiscal year 2010, the 2011 deficit would've been 50 percent less and the 2012 deficit of $1.6 billion would be reduced by about one-third</span>, said Edward Ashworth, the director of the Louisiana Budget Project, a watchdog group.

These and similar budget problems nationwide are symptoms of a larger condition, said Timothy J. Bartik, senior economist at the Upjohn Institute for Employment Research in Kalamazoo, Mich.

"If state and local taxes were at the same percentage of state personal income as they were 40 years ago, you wouldn't have all these budgetary problems," Bartik said.

Before California's Proposition 13 triggered a nationwide tax-cut revolt in the late 1970s, state and local taxes accounted for nearly 13 percent of personal income in 1972, Bartik said. By 2007, it was 11 percent.

State corporate income taxes have fallen as well. Once nearly 10 percent of all state tax revenue in the late '70s, they accounted for only 5.4 percent in 2010.

"It's a dying tax, killed off by thousands of credits, deductions, abatements and incentive packages," according to 2010 congressional testimony by Joseph Henchman, the director of state projects at the Tax Foundation, a conservative tax-research center.

Even now, as states struggle to provide basic services and ponder job cuts that threaten their economic recovery, at least seven governors in states with budget deficits have called for or enacted large tax reductions, mainly for businesses.

Five are newly elected Republicans in Florida, Maine, Michigan, New Jersey and Wisconsin. The others are Republican Jan Brewer of Arizona and Democrat Beverly Perdue of North Carolina.​

Their willingness to forgo needed tax revenue is hard to fathom, as states face a collective $125 billion budget shortfall for the coming fiscal year, said Jon Shure, the deputy director of the State Fiscal Project at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a respected liberal research institute in Washington.

"To be cutting taxes when you're short of revenue is like saying you could run faster if you cut off your foot," Shure said.

"States have suffered an unprecedented collapse in revenue, and they are at the bottom of a deep hole looking up, and these governors are saying, 'You need a ladder to climb out, but I'm going to give you a shovel instead, so you can dig the hole deeper.' "

Tax Foundation President Scott Hodge said the governors were simply trying to improve their states' business climates by lowering the tax burden.

"They're trying to increase their market share and their attractiveness to business," Hodge said. "And also, more importantly, they're trying to prevent the attrition of business and investment to other states" that have lower tax rates.

Tax Cuts

Republican lawmakers and pro-business groups have long maintained that tax cuts help stimulate economic activity, while keeping businesses and wealthy individuals from leaving the state for lower taxes elsewhere. They also argue that business and personal spending increases after tax reductions, broadening the base to be taxed at the lower rate, which partly offsets the lost tax revenue.

So calls to balance lean state budgets through spending cuts as well as modest, revenue-boosting tax hikes haven't resonated with Republican governors, who see tax relief as the key to reversing job losses in the Great Recession.

"Raising Ohio's taxes even higher won't bring those jobs back. Reducing costs so we can start reducing taxes is the key to our revival," said Rob Nichols, Kasich's press secretary. Extending the state's personal income-tax cut will cost $800 million over two years.


Business tax reductions may be overrated as an economic stimulus because they're so low on the totem pole of expenses. For most businesses, the cost of labor is probably 15 times the cost of all state and local taxes, said Bartik of the Upjohn Institute.

In his own research, Bartik found that a 10 percent across-the-board cut in state and local business taxes might boost employment by 2 percent, but it could take up to 20 years.

"Most studies indicate you might get 30 percent of the effect after five years and maybe 60 percent after 10 years," Bartik said. "It takes a while because investment decisions are quite lagged and take place gradually."

• Compounding Ohio's budget woes are 128 state tax exemptions, credits and deductions that drain more than $7 billion a year in would-be revenue. These loopholes make Ohio miss out on one of every four dollars it would otherwise collect in taxes, said Schiller of Policy Matters Ohio.

• In Missouri, business and individual tax credits cost the state $521.5 million in fiscal year 2010, compared with $103 million in 1998, according to a state report.

• Louisiana's 441 individual and corporate tax breaks cost the state $7.1 billion last year. That nearly matches the $7.7 billion that all state and local taxes brought in.

Some of the breaks provide sales-tax exemptions on groceries, prescription drugs and residential utilities that saved Louisiana taxpayers $717 million last year. But another allows Louisiana companies to keep 1 percent of the state sales taxes they collect — about $34 million statewide — just for filing their tax returns on time.

Hodge, a conservative, said that closing loopholes and exemptions was less harmful to the economy than tax increases were. The Tax Foundation supports scaling back or closing tax loopholes, while lowering tax rates across the board.

"My argument to state lawmakers is that lower rates for everybody are better than tax incentives for some," Hodge said.

That incentive-free philosophy was behind Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder's call for a flat 6 percent corporate income tax to replace the current business tax system. But Snyder's flat tax amounts to a $1.5 billion tax cut for businesses, paid for in part by education cuts, personal income tax increases and taxing public and private pensions.

"We think that's the way to rebuild our state, and to get it on a path toward economic prosperity," Snyder's top economic development official, Michael Finney, said during a recent trip to Washington.


Tax History

History suggests otherwise, however. After the nation recovered from the 1990-91 recession, 43 states made sizable tax cuts from 1994 to 2001 as the economy surged. Twenty-eight states, in fact, reduced their unemployment insurance payroll taxes after 1995.

But states that cut taxes the most ended up with the largest budget shortfalls and higher job losses when the economy slowed again in 2001, according to research by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.


To be sure, states have made bad budget decisions on the spending side as well, said Robert Ward, deputy director of The Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government, a state-government research center at the State University of New York at Albany.

Part of the problem is that the public wants everything but doesn't want to pay for anything, Ward said.

"People want something for nothing. They want big increases in education and health care spending. They want good roads. They want lots of parks, and they don't want to pay more taxes," Ward said. "But at the federal, state and local levels, we are hit with the reality that there is no free lunch."








http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/28/111161/states-broke-maybe-they-cut-taxes.html

 

[Gunner]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

States broke?
Maybe they cut taxes too much




McClatchy Newspapers
By Tony Pugh
Monday, March 28, 2011


WASHINGTON — In his new budget proposal, Ohio Republican Gov. John
Kasich calls for extending a generous 21 percent cut in state income
taxes. The measure was originally part of a sweeping 2005 tax overhaul
that abolished the state corporate income tax and phased out a business
property tax.

The tax cuts were supposed to stimulate Ohio's economy and create
jobs. But that never happened once the economy tanked. Instead, the
changes ended up <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">costing Ohio more than $2 billion a year in lost tax
revenue</span>; money that would go a long way toward closing the state's $8
billion budget gap for fiscal year 2012.

<SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">"At least half of our current budget problem is a direct result of the tax
changes we made in 2005.</span> A lot of people don't want to hear that, but
that's the reality. Much of <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">our pain is self-inflicted,"</span> said Zach Schiller,
research director at Policy Matters Ohio, a liberal government-research
group in Cleveland.


Schiller's lament is by no means unique. Across the country, taxpayers jarred by cuts to government jobs and services are reassessing the risks and costs of a variety of tax reductions, exemptions and credits, and the ideology that drives them. <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">States cut taxes in hopes of spurring economic growth, but in state after state, it hasn't worked</span>.

There's no question that mammoth state budget problems resulted largely from falling tax revenues, rising costs and greater demand for state services during the recession. But questionable tax reductions at the state and local level made the budget gaps larger — and resulting spending cuts deeper — than they otherwise would have been in many states.

• A 2008 study by Arizona State University found that that state's structural deficits could be traced to 15 years of tax cuts, mainly income-tax reductions that "were not matched by spending cuts of a commensurate size."

• In Texas, which faces a $27 billion budget deficit over the next two years, about one-third of the shortage stems from a 2006 property tax reduction that was linked to an underperforming business tax.

• In Louisiana, lawmakers essentially passed the largest tax cut in state history by rolling back an income-tax hike for high earners in 2007 and again in 2008.
  
  <SPAN style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">Without those tax reductions, Louisiana wouldn't have had a budget deficit in fiscal year 2010, the 2011 deficit would've been 50 percent less and the 2012 deficit of $1.6 billion would be reduced by about one-third</span>, said Edward Ashworth, the director of the Louisiana Budget Project, a watchdog group.

These and similar budget problems nationwide are symptoms of a larger condition, said Timothy J. Bartik, senior economist at the Upjohn Institute for Employment Research in Kalamazoo, Mich.

"If state and local taxes were at the same percentage of state personal income as they were 40 years ago, you wouldn't have all these budgetary problems," Bartik said.

Before California's Proposition 13 triggered a nationwide tax-cut revolt in the late 1970s, state and local taxes accounted for nearly 13 percent of personal income in 1972, Bartik said. By 2007, it was 11 percent.

State corporate income taxes have fallen as well. Once nearly 10 percent of all state tax revenue in the late '70s, they accounted for only 5.4 percent in 2010.

"It's a dying tax, killed off by thousands of credits, deductions, abatements and incentive packages," according to 2010 congressional testimony by Joseph Henchman, the director of state projects at the Tax Foundation, a conservative tax-research center.

Even now, as states struggle to provide basic services and ponder job cuts that threaten their economic recovery, at least seven governors in states with budget deficits have called for or enacted large tax reductions, mainly for businesses.

Five are newly elected Republicans in Florida, Maine, Michigan, New Jersey and Wisconsin. The others are Republican Jan Brewer of Arizona and Democrat Beverly Perdue of North Carolina.​

Their willingness to forgo needed tax revenue is hard to fathom, as states face a collective $125 billion budget shortfall for the coming fiscal year, said Jon Shure, the deputy director of the State Fiscal Project at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a respected liberal research institute in Washington.

"To be cutting taxes when you're short of revenue is like saying you could run faster if you cut off your foot," Shure said.

"States have suffered an unprecedented collapse in revenue, and they are at the bottom of a deep hole looking up, and these governors are saying, 'You need a ladder to climb out, but I'm going to give you a shovel instead, so you can dig the hole deeper.' "

Tax Foundation President Scott Hodge said the governors were simply trying to improve their states' business climates by lowering the tax burden.

"They're trying to increase their market share and their attractiveness to business," Hodge said. "And also, more importantly, they're trying to prevent the attrition of business and investment to other states" that have lower tax rates.

Tax Cuts

Republican lawmakers and pro-business groups have long maintained that tax cuts help stimulate economic activity, while keeping businesses and wealthy individuals from leaving the state for lower taxes elsewhere. They also argue that business and personal spending increases after tax reductions, broadening the base to be taxed at the lower rate, which partly offsets the lost tax revenue.

So calls to balance lean state budgets through spending cuts as well as modest, revenue-boosting tax hikes haven't resonated with Republican governors, who see tax relief as the key to reversing job losses in the Great Recession.

"Raising Ohio's taxes even higher won't bring those jobs back. Reducing costs so we can start reducing taxes is the key to our revival," said Rob Nichols, Kasich's press secretary. Extending the state's personal income-tax cut will cost $800 million over two years.


Business tax reductions may be overrated as an economic stimulus because they're so low on the totem pole of expenses. For most businesses, the cost of labor is probably 15 times the cost of all state and local taxes, said Bartik of the Upjohn Institute.

In his own research, Bartik found that a 10 percent across-the-board cut in state and local business taxes might boost employment by 2 percent, but it could take up to 20 years.

"Most studies indicate you might get 30 percent of the effect after five years and maybe 60 percent after 10 years," Bartik said. "It takes a while because investment decisions are quite lagged and take place gradually."

• Compounding Ohio's budget woes are 128 state tax exemptions, credits and deductions that drain more than $7 billion a year in would-be revenue. These loopholes make Ohio miss out on one of every four dollars it would otherwise collect in taxes, said Schiller of Policy Matters Ohio.

• In Missouri, business and individual tax credits cost the state $521.5 million in fiscal year 2010, compared with $103 million in 1998, according to a state report.

• Louisiana's 441 individual and corporate tax breaks cost the state $7.1 billion last year. That nearly matches the $7.7 billion that all state and local taxes brought in.

Some of the breaks provide sales-tax exemptions on groceries, prescription drugs and residential utilities that saved Louisiana taxpayers $717 million last year. But another allows Louisiana companies to keep 1 percent of the state sales taxes they collect — about $34 million statewide — just for filing their tax returns on time.

Hodge, a conservative, said that closing loopholes and exemptions was less harmful to the economy than tax increases were. The Tax Foundation supports scaling back or closing tax loopholes, while lowering tax rates across the board.

"My argument to state lawmakers is that lower rates for everybody are better than tax incentives for some," Hodge said.

That incentive-free philosophy was behind Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder's call for a flat 6 percent corporate income tax to replace the current business tax system. But Snyder's flat tax amounts to a $1.5 billion tax cut for businesses, paid for in part by education cuts, personal income tax increases and taxing public and private pensions.

"We think that's the way to rebuild our state, and to get it on a path toward economic prosperity," Snyder's top economic development official, Michael Finney, said during a recent trip to Washington.


Tax History

History suggests otherwise, however. After the nation recovered from the 1990-91 recession, 43 states made sizable tax cuts from 1994 to 2001 as the economy surged. Twenty-eight states, in fact, reduced their unemployment insurance payroll taxes after 1995.

But states that cut taxes the most ended up with the largest budget shortfalls and higher job losses when the economy slowed again in 2001, according to research by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.


To be sure, states have made bad budget decisions on the spending side as well, said Robert Ward, deputy director of The Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government, a state-government research center at the State University of New York at Albany.

Part of the problem is that the public wants everything but doesn't want to pay for anything, Ward said.

"People want something for nothing. They want big increases in education and health care spending. They want good roads. They want lots of parks, and they don't want to pay more taxes," Ward said. "But at the federal, state and local levels, we are hit with the reality that there is no free lunch."








http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/28/111161/states-broke-maybe-they-cut-taxes.html

Stupid ass Blanco promised too much free crap. Every one tried to tell her that all of the federal money for hurricanes were one time temporary funds. She tried to put a band aid on everything that Katrina uncovered. Now the chickens have come home to roost.

We don't fall for

We elected Jindal because Blanco was an absolute embarrassment. As if we needed anything else. He said that he would not raise taxes. He has kept his promise. Unlike others. All state departments are learning to make do with less.
Similar to Wisconsin budget woes, someone has to clean it up.

Answer this Que, In your own household do you live within your means? If you ever found yourself a little low every month, did you ever like add to the debt by buying a new car. States can't print money like the federal government!!

 

[Shurnuff]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Stupid ass Blanco promised too much free crap. Every one tried to tell her that all of the federal money for hurricanes were one time temporary funds. She tried to put a band aid on everything that Katrina uncovered. Now the chickens have come home to roost.

We don't fall for

We elected Jindal because Blanco was an absolute embarrassment. As if we needed anything else. He said that he would not raise taxes. He has kept his promise. Unlike others. All state departments are learning to make do with less.
Similar to Wisconsin budget woes, someone has to clean it up.

Answer this Que, In your own household do you live within your means? If you ever found yourself a little low every month, did you ever like add to the debt by buying a new car. States can't print money like the federal government!!

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Stupid ass Blanco promised too much free crap. Every one tried to tell her that all of the federal money for hurricanes were one time temporary funds. She tried to put a band aid on everything that Katrina uncovered. Now the chickens have come home to roost.

We don't fall for

We elected Jindal because Blanco was an absolute embarrassment. As if we needed anything else. He said that he would not raise taxes. He has kept his promise. Unlike others. All state departments are learning to make do with less.
Similar to Wisconsin budget woes, someone has to clean it up.

Answer this Que, In your own household do you live within your means? If you ever found yourself a little low every month, did you ever like add to the debt by buying a new car. States can't print money like the federal government!!

This is why Louisiana and most of the southern states are poor and basket cases. Lowest income, least educated, highest poverty, etc. They are greatest rrecipients of federal dollars. Fail!

 

[QueEx]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Answer this Que, In your own household do you live within your means? If you ever found yourself a little low every month, did you ever like add to the debt by buying a new car. States can't print money like the federal government!!

<font size="3">Good question. I would first check my sources of revenue. I would look to see whether I put in the hours; did I not get my invoices out; and did clients pay. If they did, and I'm still a little low, I would market harder and work harder, that way: I could increase my output to get my hours in, so that my invoices increase, so that my revenue stream increases.

Perhaps, Louisiana should do the same. Since it is running (billions) more than just a little low, it should check its revenue stream as well. It might find that it has "lowered" its revenue stream on the false hope that it would some how spur economic growth, but it didn't work. Hence, it might find that its budgetary pain is "Self Inflicted".

AND, when/if it returns itself to sound revenue prudence, it might consider investing some of its then found cash on educating its citizens so that they don't go around internet message boards asking dumb-assed questions without understanding that 1 minus 1 = fucking 0.

QueEx</font size>

 

[BrainChild09]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

The millionaires whom this article addresses already paid taxes on the money they earned. What right does the government and those interested in using these people's money for their own purposes have to take some more of the money these people were left with after they've died. How does your property (which again was taxed once already so they never saw all that they earned to begin with) automatically become government interests' money once you die?

Is it moral for others of no relation to take from a person any of what they earned during their life once they've died, without that person's consent at the very least & more likely against their will, instead of that person being able to bequeath it all to their family or whomever that person chooses?

I'd like the board members to answer these questions directly and explain. Thanks.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

The millionaires whom this article addresses already paid taxes on the money they earned. What right does the government and those interested in using these people's money for their own purposes have to take some more of the money these people were left with after they've died. How does your property (which again was taxed once already so they never saw all that they earned to begin with) automatically become government interests' money once you die?

Is it moral for others of no relation to take from a person any of what they earned during their life once they've died, without that person's consent at the very least & more likely against their will, instead of that person being able to bequeath it all to their family or whomever that person chooses?

I'd like the board members to answer these questions directly and explain. Thanks.

I thought I ran you off of this board !

You didn't ask me a question my man. You did however state what you assume I'm thinking. Also, I didn't change the subject. I directly answered how I felt about businesses utilizing tax shelters. I think I clearly addressed the subject. I then took the convo a tiny step further by stating what I think is a more important problem when talking about "hurting taxpayers."

I asked you to show me in the article where it says that most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes. You didn't do it. I'm waiting to see where it says that in the article. Also, I'd appreciate you explaining the "Ownership Society" to us too. I love getting different perspectives on things.

then took the convo a tiny step further

"You say tomato, I say tomahto!"

I asked you to show me in the article where it says that most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes. You didn't do it. I'm waiting to see where it says that in the article.

source: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1249465620080812"]Reuters[/URL]


The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_society"]Ownership Society [/URL]

Any more clarifications?

Moral?

 

[Fuckallyall]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I've said it many times - Big Business loves Big Government. THey could not have pulled this massive stick and move without it. When will some of you realize that. No welfare program ever begets anything but a big lobby to shovel the money to big business. Food stamps = money to Monsanto and ADM. Medicare/Medicaid = money to Big Pharma. Bailout of car companies and banks = money to GM execs and the largest paydays Wall Street's ever seen. "Humaniarian Intervention" using the US military = money to Halliburton. Meanwhile, the poor are still poor, and we have more Beauracracies. Keep thinking that your pimp loves you. That is all Big Government is.

BTW, states should cut costs as it cuts taxes.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Answer this Que, In your own household do you live within your means? If you ever found yourself a little low every month, did you ever like add to the debt by buying a new car. States can't print money like the federal government!!

The millionaires whom this article addresses already paid taxes on the money they earned.

I've said it many times - Big Business loves Big Government. THey could not have pulled this massive stick and move without it.
BTW, states should cut costs as it cuts taxes.

Once again the right wing nuts always fall back on what they do best, stray from the original post. But this actually exposes what they are all about. Make those with less pay more taxes than the wealthy. And BrainFreeze has the audacity to mention morality!

 

[Fuckallyall]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Once again the right wing nuts always fall back on what they do best, stray from the original post. But this actually exposes what they are all about. Make those with less pay more taxes than the wealthy. And BrainFreeze has the audacity to mention morality!

And as usual, the left falls back on what they (think) they know best - not see the forest from the trees. You are still not seeing the problem, just the symptoms. The only reason the gov. did what they did is because too many of us are going screaming to ol' massa to "do something !!!", and this is what you get. You think you can scheme your way out of paying for things, or get the productive alpha's (or the good hustlers) to take care of you on your terms. This has been, is, and will be the way things turn out.

Too many of you love the leash.

This is an inconvienient truth, not the movie.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

The millionaires whom this article addresses already paid taxes on the money they earned. What right does the government and those interested in using these people's money for their own purposes have to take some more of the money these people were left with after they've died. How does your property (which again was taxed once already so they never saw all that they earned to begin with) automatically become government interests' money once you die?

Is it moral for others of no relation to take from a person any of what they earned during their life once they've died, without that person's consent at the very least & more likely against their will, instead of that person being able to bequeath it all to their family or whomever that person chooses?

I'd like the board members to answer these questions directly and explain. Thanks.

It's very moral and appropriate. The person receiving the money and property hasn't paid one cent in taxes on their windfall and didn't do anything to earn it except hit the genetic lottery.
And considering how many of the very top earners actually pay a lot less in taxes than they should, it's not a given that that money/property has been taxed in the first place.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I failed to see anyone on this board who would consider themselves on "The Right" defend the idea of tax cuts for the wealthy but increases for the middle class.
So, Republicans love Big Government and tax increases. Gotcha.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

And as usual, the left falls back on what they (think) they know best - not see the forest from the trees. You are still not seeing the problem, just the symptoms. The only reason the gov. did what they did is because too many of us are going screaming to ol' massa to "do something !!!", and this is what you get. You think you can scheme your way out of paying for things, or get the productive alpha's (or the good hustlers) to take care of you on your terms. This has been, is, and will be the way things turn out.

Too many of you love the leash.

This is an inconvienient truth, not the movie.

Absolute gibberish!

 

[Fuckallyall]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Absolute gibberish!

Whatever. The left has had it's wish, and look at what's happening. Just single mother syndrome writ large.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Whatever. The left has had it's wish, and look at what's happening. Just single mother syndrome writ large.

When you learn not to pontificate in political talking points, continue to post. Until then, learn how to articulate your thoughts clearly!

 

[BrainChild09]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I thought I ran you off of this board !





Moral?

Steady responses like this from you was one of the main reasons I've chosen not to participate in this board nearly as much. There's no need to be insulting. I got caught up in doing the same thing a while back on here but I'm done with that.

 

[BrainChild09]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

It's very moral and appropriate. The person receiving the money and property hasn't paid one cent in taxes on their windfall and didn't do anything to earn it except hit the genetic lottery.
And considering how many of the very top earners actually pay a lot less in taxes than they should, it's not a given that that money/property has been taxed in the first place.

I don't want to be insulting, I just want to understand your stance. You believe it is moral to take the person's money and not allow them to give it to their children, spouse, or who ever because those people didn't earn the money in the sense that they didn't work for it?

If this is your position, it is understandable and I believe your basically saying, "it's not fair that some people should be wealthy or live a materially richer lifestyle simply because someone they're related to was successful." I can sympathize with your view and for most of my life I felt the same way.

Here's my thing though bruh...One, the individuals who were blessed with genes that made them fortunate enough to make their way into government and into positions where they can take that man or woman's money and then use it for their own purpose didn't earn the money any more than the people whom the deceased wanted to give their money to. So if the test for morality in terms of receiving money is that you only receive it if you earned it, I don't think these people in government past that test.

Second, I also see your point about the children simply "winning the genetic lottery." It does seem unfair in a way, most people aren't born to rich parents. Then again, most people aren't born to a parent whose a professional athlete. Peyton Manning and Eli Manning were remarkably blessed to be the sons of Archie Manning. The genetics he passed on to them surely played a large hand in their ability to be star NFL quarterbacks. This has allowed them to earn tens of millions of dollars that they'll see for years to come. If the logic is that it is moral to deny people the benefits reaped due to them being the children of some particular type of person, then children of professional athletes should simply be forbidden by federal law to play professional sports if they have the opportunity to do so. According to this morality, it would be immoral for them to reap the monetary benefits of being a pro athlete when they were assisted by genes their parent(s) gave to them. Same goes for people who have a mother and father who were engineers. They should be forbidden from entering lucrative careers that involve math. It may sound outrageous to you.

Third, I don't believe it is moral for another person to decide what someone else does with their money against that person's will. (Side note: Yes, some people do receive tax breaks (results of complicated and immoral tax code and I think we agree on that), but most people, especially those making $200,000a year and within a wide range of 100s of thousands of dollars more than that, were taxed on some of their personal income.) If the person made a decision as to what they want done with the money they earned while alive (which I believe is a part of your morality case) once they've departed, I think that should be completely honored.

Again, I don't want to come across as combative. I'm just stating my viewpoint. I actually agreed with your stance for most of my life until I started to take a closer look at my personal biases and political and social stance (not saying that my current stance is "right" and yours "wrong"). No, I didn't become one of the "wealthy" and I didn't start caring about those in need in any less. I still spend several hours in the city trying to help my brothers and sisters and thinking about ways to help us all. So hopefully we can avoid the name-calling and we can talk about this stuff for real.

Peace.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Steady responses like this from you was one of the main reasons I've chosen not to participate in this board nearly as much. There's no need to be insulting. I got caught up in doing the same thing a while back on here but I'm done with that.

I thought it was strange that you asked questions that were already answered in this thread. That was the reason you left.

 

[BrainChild09]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I thought it was strange that you asked questions that were already answered in this thread. That was the reason you left.

More disrespect. I respectfully told you why I stopped participating in the discussions. You respond by telling me that I had a different reason. That's fine. Peace.

 

[Gunner]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

More disrespect. I respectfully told you why I stopped participating in the discussions. You respond by telling me that I had a different reason. That's fine. Peace.

Dude don't worry. These guys will be fossils in the coming years. Grown men bitching about the productive funding their poor choices.

 

[BrainChild09]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Dude don't worry. These guys will be fossils in the coming years. Grown men bitching about the productive funding their poor choices.

I get where you're coming from. I want to stay away from the name calling and personal negativity though, it only degrades the conversation when there's important concepts to be discussed. Hopefully I can express my views in a way now that don't lead to straight up bickering and others can see my sincerity in wanting all people to be prosperous just as much as they do. Obviously I think my views are correct, as they do theirs. It's all good.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

bumping for later response to Brainchild.

Can't now, packing but I definitely want to respond to his post.

 

[Lamarr]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Peter Schiff: U.S. Should Abolish Corporate and Personal Income Taxes

Here are some of his recommended tax reforms:

Abolish corporate taxes. "Why tax the corporations on the money they don't spend in salaries and they don't pay in dividends?" he asks. "That money is the money they use to grow their businesses to make capital investments." To this end, Schiff says he's currently working to incorporate his business offshore to avoid onerous U.S. taxes.

Abolish the home mortgage tax deduction. The government shouldn't be subsidizing home purchasing, distorting the market by "artificially reduc(ing) the cost of buying versus renting," he argues. That's an extremely tough sell as the mortgage deduction is undoubtedly one of the most popular deductions.

Create a "flat tax." Tax everyone at the same rate so you do not "punish people for earning more and working harder," he says.


Create a national sales tax. Schiff is a strong believer in taxing consumption rather than income, which he argues has a demotivating effect on the workforce. In fact, he's said in early interviews that he plans to leave Connecticut and move to Florida, where there is no state income tax.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Peter Schiff: U.S. Should Abolish Corporate and Personal Income Taxes

Create a national sales tax. Schiff is a strong believer in taxing consumption rather than income, which he argues has a demotivating effect on the workforce. In fact, he's said in early interviews that he plans to leave Connecticut and move to Florida, where there is no state income tax.

Would you expect anything else from a selfish billionaire. Connecticut public schools are among the best public schools in the country!

 

[Lamarr]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Would you expect anything else from a selfish billionaire. Connecticut public schools are among the best public schools in the country!

anywho, public schools are funded by property taxes. Just like taxes on gas, fund the highway systems.

You realize that each action has a reaction. What Schiff is saying is higher taxes penalize the best & the brightest. It leads them, ultimately, to offshore their operations. Case & point, we see it too much with corporations outsourcing operations. On an individual basis, states with higher tax rates will suffer as the most successful leave in search of "tax friendly" places.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

anywho, public schools are funded by property taxes. Just like taxes on gas, fund the highway systems.

You realize that each action has a reaction. What Schiff is saying is higher taxes penalize the best & the brightest. It leads them, ultimately, to offshore their operations. Case & point, we see it too much with corporations outsourcing operations. On an individual basis, states with higher tax rates will suffer as the most successful leave in search of "tax friendly" places.

First off, BrainFreeze, Gunner and your comments have nothing to do with the original topic. More taxes cut for the wealthy, more taxes for everyone else. You approve of that.

I'm from Connecticut, one of the wealthiest states. They do not want their state to end up looking like Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, etc. You can expect more blood sucking tax dodgers to relocate to Florida. The criminal Governor Rick Scott is preparing Florida to be a South American style tax haven.

 

[Fuckallyall]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

When you learn not to pontificate in political talking points, continue to post. Until then, learn how to articulate your thoughts clearly!

Son, that's about all you do, so take your own advice, as you are currently not using it.

The left has run this country for years, and these are your chickens coming home to roost. Don't blame anyone else for your "wealth redistribution" programs backfiring on you. You were constantly warned that these schemes would not work. You thought you were pimpin', but you were being pimped, and ended up dragging a whole lot of folks with you.

 

[thoughtone]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Son, that's about all you do, so take your own advice, as you are currently not using it.

The left has run this country for years, and these are your chickens coming home to roost. Don't blame anyone else for your "wealth redistribution" programs backfiring on you. You were constantly warned that these schemes would not work. You thought you were pimpin', but you were being pimped, and ended up dragging a whole lot of folks with you.

The left has run this country for years

Ronald Reagan, HW Bush, GW, Bush, Alan Greenspan, Robert Gates, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, John Roberts, William Rehnquist, Bill Frist, Tom DeLay, Ben Bernanke<SUP id=cite_ref-0 class=reference>http://www.bgol.us/board/#cite_note-0</SUP>.....

Boy, the more you wing nuts talk, the less credibility you have!

 

[BrainChild09]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

bumping for later response to Brainchild.

Can't now, packing but I definitely want to respond to his post.

Are you still going to respond?

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

Are you still going to respond?

Thanks for the bump. Got back yesterday and I couldn't remember which thread it was.

 

[Upgrade Dave]

Re: Three States Propose Massive Tax Cuts For Millionaires, Tax Hikes for Middle Clas

I don't want to be insulting, I just want to understand your stance. You believe it is moral to take the person's money and not allow them to give it to their children, spouse, or who ever because those people didn't earn the money in the sense that they didn't work for it?

If this is your position, it is understandable and I believe your basically saying, "it's not fair that some people should be wealthy or live a materially richer lifestyle simply because someone they're related to was successful." I can sympathize with your view and for most of my life I felt the same way.

Here's my thing though bruh...One, the individuals who were blessed with genes that made them fortunate enough to make their way into government and into positions where they can take that man or woman's money and then use it for their own purpose didn't earn the money any more than the people whom the deceased wanted to give their money to. So if the test for morality in terms of receiving money is that you only receive it if you earned it, I don't think these people in government past that test.

That's not really my point. My point is the defense used by many that estate taxes are double taxation aren't valid. The money was tax when it was received by the person who earned it but this money is now a separate windfall for someone who did not and, in effect, has not been taxed at all.

Second, I also see your point about the children simply "winning the genetic lottery." It does seem unfair in a way, most people aren't born to rich parents. Then again, most people aren't born to a parent whose a professional athlete. Peyton Manning and Eli Manning were remarkably blessed to be the sons of Archie Manning. The genetics he passed on to them surely played a large hand in their ability to be star NFL quarterbacks. This has allowed them to earn tens of millions of dollars that they'll see for years to come. If the logic is that it is moral to deny people the benefits reaped due to them being the children of some particular type of person, then children of professional athletes should simply be forbidden by federal law to play professional sports if they have the opportunity to do so. According to this morality, it would be immoral for them to reap the monetary benefits of being a pro athlete when they were assisted by genes their parent(s) gave to them. Same goes for people who have a mother and father who were engineers. They should be forbidden from entering lucrative careers that involve math. It may sound outrageous to you.

That wasn't a good analogy at all. Peyton Manning didn't get into the NFL because his dad was in it. He got in because he earned his way in.

Third, I don't believe it is moral for another person to decide what someone else does with their money against that person's will. (Side note: Yes, some people do receive tax breaks (results of complicated and immoral tax code and I think we agree on that), but most people, especially those making $200,000a year and within a wide range of 100s of thousands of dollars more than that, were taxed on some of their personal income.) If the person made a decision as to what they want done with the money they earned while alive (which I believe is a part of your morality case) once they've departed, I think that should be completely honored.

I see nothing wrong with taxes or immoral about the tax code in and of itself. It costs to live here and have this be a first world nation just like it costs everywhere else. The more you make the more you are clearly benefitting from being here and enjoying the advantages of this country. The only morality problem I have is how it's used to redistribute wealth from the poor and working classes to the wealthy, as proposed by Republicans all over the country and in DC.
I do agree that those in that 200k range work for their money but they aren't subject to the estate tax in the first place. It starts at $5m and much of that money isn't earned through working but through investments and in the case of more and more CEOs, through bonuses and stock options, all while cutting pay and jobs for working class people.

Again, I don't want to come across as combative. I'm just stating my viewpoint. I actually agreed with your stance for most of my life until I started to take a closer look at my personal biases and political and social stance (not saying that my current stance is "right" and yours "wrong"). No, I didn't become one of the "wealthy" and I didn't start caring about those in need in any less. I still spend several hours in the city trying to help my brothers and sisters and thinking about ways to help us all. So hopefully we can avoid the name-calling and we can talk about this stuff for real.

Peace.

I also took that same time for introspection and realized I had been sucked in by Reagan and his charm while not seeing how his policies were tearing apart lower economic classes.
Everyone has political/social biases. I can talk and debate with anyone respectfully (even taming my naturally sarcastic, condescending nature) when I feel the other person is debating honestly. You and Lamarr do that but some of these other cats.