The Unseen Consequences of "Green Jobs"

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From reason.com

The Unseen Consequences of "Green Jobs"
Will investing in clean energy harm the economy?
Ronald Bailey | February 8, 2011

In his State of the Union speech a couple of weeks ago, President Barack Obama planned to “win the future” by, among many other things, having the federal government “invest” in “clean energy technology—an investment that will strengthen our security, protect our planet, and create countless new jobs for our people.” But will investing in clean energy actually produce countless new jobs?

A couple of weeks ago, the California think tank Next 10 asserted in its 2011 Many Shades of Green report that employment in the state’s green core economy grew at 3 percent between 2008 and 2009. Employment in the rest of the economy, meanwhile, grew at just 1 percent. The report defines the "green core economy" as businesses that generate clean energy, conserve energy, or reduce and recycle wastes.

Specifically, the Next 10 report finds that the number of jobs in California’s green core economy rose between 2008 and 2009 from 169,000 to 174,000—an additional 5,000 jobs. Green jobs account for just 0.9 percent of California's overall 18.8 million jobs. Note that California’s unemployment rate is 12.5 percent, which means that 2,270,000 Californians are without work.

Unfortunately, when it comes to green jobs both the president and the Next 10 report are focusing on the seen while ignoring the unseen. In his brilliant essay, “What is Seen and What is Unseen,” 19th century French economist Frederic Bastiat pointed out that the favorable “seen” effects of any policy often produce many disastrous “unseen” later consequences. Bastiat urges us “not to judge things solely by what is seen, but rather by what is not seen.”

So let's take a look. Many of the green core economy jobs created in California are the result of policies that restrict the production and use of conventional sources of energy. For example, electricity generators in California are required to produce 20 percent of their supplies using renewable sources by 2010, a requirement that will rise to 33 percent by 2020. In addition, California’s Global Warming Solutions Act will impose steep reductions in carbon dioxide emissions produced by burning fossil fuels. Other green jobs are the result of regulations requiring energy conservation [PDF] in residential and commercial construction. Certainly, these activities provide some benefits, including pollution reduction and energy savings. But let’s focus on the claim that on balance they provide more jobs than they kill.

A new report, "Defining, Measuring, and Predicting Green Jobs," by University of Texas economist Gurcan Gulen, issued by the Copenhagen Consensus Center, takes apart many studies predicting that policies mandating alternative energy production, energy efficiency, and conservation will create a boom in employment.

First, Gulen notes that many such studies fail to define clearly what they mean by green jobs. He points out that many pro-green jobs studies do not distinguish temporary construction jobs from more permanent operation jobs. Many studies also assume that green jobs will pay more than jobs in conventional energy production. But why would a construction job at a wind farm pay more than one at a conventional power plant?

Even more disturbingly, many green job studies have no analyses of job losses. Clean energy costs more than conventional energy, which means consumers and businesses will have less income with which to buy and invest. This reduces their consumption of other goods and services, resulting in job losses in those sectors—one of Bastiat's "unseen" effects. In addition, many studies simultaneously count on protectionist policies to exclude clean energy imports while assuming that domestic companies will be freely exporting to other countries.

As an example of how these pro-green jobs studies go wrong, Gulen analyzes the 2008 green jobs study [PDF] by the consultancy IHS Global Insight. That report found that the U.S. currently has 750,000 green jobs, of which 420,000 are in the engineering, legal, research, and consulting fields. Gulen observes, “Given that there are also categories for renewable generation, manufacturing, construction, and installation, it is likely that the majority of the jobs in the largest category are not directly associated with the generation of a single kWh (kilowatt-hour) of ‘green’ power or a single Btu (British thermal unit) of ‘green’ fuel.” The Global Insight study also reports that government administration generates 72,000 of the current green jobs. Green policies often don't produce power, but do produce more regulators.

The Global lnsight study further asserts that pursuing green energy will increase economic productivity. “When compared to conventional technologies on unit of energy output, due to intermittency and low capacity factors, wind and solar are likely to be more labor intensive (hence less productive),” notes Gulen. In fact, Gulen adds that other studies are counting on the fact that green energy technologies are more labor intensive as a way to generate more jobs.

This strategy is reminiscent of the no doubt apocryphal story of the American economist visiting Mao’s China taken on a tour of a construction site where 100 workers were using shovels to build an earthen dam. "Why don't you just use one man and a bulldozer to build the dam?” asked the economist. The guide responded, "If we did that, then we'd have 99 men out of work." To which the economist replied, "Oh, I thought you were building a dam. If your goal is to make jobs, why don't you take their shovels away and replace them with spoons?"

Gulen is not alone in his concerns about overblown claims for green jobs. A 2009 report [PDF], by Hillard Huntington, executive director of the Energy Modeling Forum at Stanford University, also found that promoting green energy is not a jobs generator. Huntington calculated the number of jobs per million dollars invested in various types of electricity generation. A million dollars invested in solar power produces three to five jobs; wind 1.6 to 6.5 jobs; biomass 1.8 to 6.5 jobs; coal 3.7 jobs; and natural gas two jobs. It looks like renewables are often winners at job creation until Huntington points out that on average an investment of a million dollars produces about 10 jobs.

“Electricity generation across all sources creates far fewer jobs than other activities in the economy; the estimates in the figure suggest that they range between 17-67 percent of the average job-creation in the economy,” reports Huntington. “These net job losses mean that subsidies to either green or conventional sources will detract rather than expand the economy’s job base, because they will shift investments from other sectors that will create more employment.”

Another way to look at it is that in the worst cases, investing in solar power destroys seven jobs, wind eight jobs, biomass eight jobs, coal six jobs, and natural gas eight jobs, each compared to the 10 jobs generally created per million dollars of investment. All subsidies to the electric power sector divert money that would otherwise be invested in higher value wealth and job-creating activities.

Huntington concludes, “Policymakers and government agencies should look askance at the claimed additional job benefits from green energy.” Gulen agrees, “Adding ‘net’ jobs cannot be defended as another benefit of investing in these [green] technologies.” In other words, President Obama and other proponents of green energy like Next 10 are seeing only what their policies produce, and ignoring what their policies destroy.
 
Maybe I read it too fast

So how many jobs will be lost by investing more in "green jobs"?
You know I'm a fan of someone suggesting viable alternatives.
 
Alternative to what ?

Alternative energy and "green jobs". That market has to be explored and soon (we're actually 30 yrs late). The other economies that we're supposedly in competition with, like China and India, are already making those investments.
 
Maybe I read it too fast

So how many jobs will be lost by investing more in "green jobs"?
You know I'm a fan of someone suggesting viable alternatives.

Let the private sector handle it. T Boone Pickens was hyped about windmills. Had infomercials and the whole nine. When he started to lose money he pulled out. It's cool to say lets explore for alternatives when it does not affect our personal pocket.
How about taking an extra 200.00 out of your paycheck to pay for those explorations? Greed is one of the best virtues. Greed brought us oil to power our homes and cars. Don't get it twisted, oil corporations can care less about the public good. Share holders care about profits.
 
I thought this was settled with the Spain experiment.

Source

March 27 (Bloomberg) -- Subsidizing renewable energy in the U.S. may destroy two jobs for every one created if Spain’s experience with windmills and solar farms is any guide.

For every new position that depends on energy price supports, at least 2.2 jobs in other industries will disappear, according to a study from King Juan Carlos University in Madrid.

U.S. President Barack Obama’s 2010 budget proposal contains about $20 billion in tax incentives for clean-energy programs. In Spain, where wind turbines provided 11 percent of power demand last year, generators earn rates as much as 11 times more for renewable energy compared with burning fossil fuels.

The premiums paid for solar, biomass, wave and wind power - - which are charged to consumers in their bills -- translated into a $774,000 cost for each Spanish “green job” created since 2000, said Gabriel Calzada, an economics professor at the university and author of the report.

“The loss of jobs could be greater if you account for the amount of lost industry that moves out of the country due to higher energy prices,” he said in an interview.

Spain’s Acerinox SA, the nation’s largest stainless-steel producer, blamed domestic energy costs for deciding to expand in South Africa and the U.S., according to the study.

“Microsoft and Google moved their servers up to the Canadian border because they benefited from cheaper energy there,” said the professor of applied environmental economics.
 
Let the private sector handle it. T Boone Pickens was hyped about windmills. Had infomercials and the whole nine. When he started to lose money he pulled out. It's cool to say lets explore for alternatives when it does not affect our personal pocket.
How about taking an extra 200.00 out of your paycheck to pay for those explorations? Greed is one of the best virtues. Greed brought us oil to power our homes and cars. Don't get it twisted, oil corporations can care less about the public good. Share holders care about profits.

Then maybe we should have taken the money we give in subsidies to multi billion dollar, multi national oil companies and given some of it to Pickens. Just a thought.
Greed definitely was a driving force but it was aided by government money and investment.

I thought this was settled with the Spain experiment.

Source

March 27 (Bloomberg) -- Subsidizing renewable energy in the U.S. may destroy two jobs for every one created if Spain’s experience with windmills and solar farms is any guide.

For every new position that depends on energy price supports, at least 2.2 jobs in other industries will disappear, according to a study from King Juan Carlos University in Madrid.

U.S. President Barack Obama’s 2010 budget proposal contains about $20 billion in tax incentives for clean-energy programs. In Spain, where wind turbines provided 11 percent of power demand last year, generators earn rates as much as 11 times more for renewable energy compared with burning fossil fuels.

The premiums paid for solar, biomass, wave and wind power - - which are charged to consumers in their bills -- translated into a $774,000 cost for each Spanish “green job” created since 2000, said Gabriel Calzada, an economics professor at the university and author of the report.

“The loss of jobs could be greater if you account for the amount of lost industry that moves out of the country due to higher energy prices,” he said in an interview.

Spain’s Acerinox SA, the nation’s largest stainless-steel producer, blamed domestic energy costs for deciding to expand in South Africa and the U.S., according to the study.

“Microsoft and Google moved their servers up to the Canadian border because they benefited from cheaper energy there,” said the professor of applied environmental economics.


Interesting.

Now for the retort
http://http://blog.mlive.com/green-blawg/2009/07/green_jobs_mean_job_loss_not_l.html


"Green" jobs mean job loss? Not likely.
In a recent article in the Saginaw News, former Michigan Department of Environmental Quality Director under Governor John Engler, Russ Harding, cited a study by a Spanish University professor that suggested that "green" jobs actually resulted in an overall loss of jobs. In fact, the study claimed that nine jobs would be lost for every four created. Many commentators and bloggers who challenge current efforts at greening the ecomomy and society have siezed upon this study as the silver bullet in support of their arguments against the current efforts underway locally and nationally to establish green jobs. The results of the report, if true, present an alarming picture, to be sure. However, a closer review demonstrates that there may not be much there there.

Critiques about the study start with the author's objectivity. Gabriel Calzada Alvarez is the study's Research Director. According to Media Matters which reviewed the claims, identified the author as being involved with a variety of organizations with a libertarian bent and funded by groups who argue against the existence of global climate change. This, by itself, is probably not adequate to challenge the findings of the study itself. However, even the Wall Street Journal seemed to take the study's findings with a grain of salt:

And just where did that study come from? Professor Gabriel Calzada is the founder and president of the Fundacion Juan de Mariana, a libertarian think tank founded in 2005. He's also a fellow of the Center for New Europe, a Brussels-based libertarian think thank than in recent years apparently accepted funding from Exxon Mobil.
As one can imagine, criticism of the study, its findings and its author came quite quickly and furiously by those supporting the current governmental and private investment in green jobs. The Green Economy Post published one particularly detailed critique.

It seems intuitive that as the world moves away from fossil fuels, either because of concerns about global climate change, peak oil, increased costs of some fossil fuels, or national security issues, something will need to take their place. This is not a question of whether we are going in that direction, it is a question of when and whether the United States will lead in this endeavor and benefit from the economic fruits or be a follower, buying the necessary technology and logistical support from overseas.

The debate about global climate change will likely continue unabated for some time. But there are any number of other good reasons why we should be moving towards a greener economy and society. For example, given that wind energy jobs have now exceeded that of coal mining, the trend seems pretty clear and the Spanish study may either not be applicable here or overstates the author's conclusions. In either event, those who point to that study to oppose the current investment in green jobs may need to find additional support for their position.

UPDATE: Policy makers in other countries have apparently not taken the Spanish university study very seriously. South Korea, for example, just announced that it was going to spend the equivalent of two percent of its gross domestic product, or $85 billion, to invest in environmental technology over the next five years. And a study by the Pew Charitable Trust concluded that jobs in emerging clean technology industries grew two and a half times faster than other jobs between 1998 and 2007. As it stands now, the Spanish study would appear to be, at best, an outlier
 
Alternative energy and "green jobs". That market has to be explored and soon (we're actually 30 yrs late). The other economies that we're supposedly in competition with, like China and India, are already making those investments.

You mean like the Three Georges Dam, which displaced 1.3 million people, changed the ecology of the region, flooded irreplacable archeological sites, and is concentrating pollution in the created lake. BTW, according to several engineers, the river will deposit silt which will lessen the water pressure. Those engineers were called anti China and silenced. The lake is already beginning to silt.

I do not mind (I actually encourage and have invested in) the search for "green" energy. But if the government needs to do it, it is usually because it does not work. Green energy the government is talking about is a lot like savings from government programs. They are always a few years away.
 
You mean like the Three Georges Dam, which displaced 1.3 million people, changed the ecology of the region, flooded irreplacable archeological sites, and is concentrating pollution in the created lake. BTW, according to several engineers, the river will deposit silt which will lessen the water pressure. Those engineers were called anti China and silenced. The lake is already beginning to silt.

No, I don't mean that at all. As you noted, there was already science saying this wasn't a good idea and they did it anyway. Is that the only example of China or India or any other country exploring renewable energy?

I do not mind (I actually encourage and have invested in) the search for "green" energy. But if the government needs to do it, it is usually because it does not work. Green energy the government is talking about is a lot like savings from government programs. They are always a few years away.

Not at all. It means it's expensive and can be cost prohibitive to a company who's competing against other like companies.
 
Interesting.

Now for the retort

thats all good but its time to be real about the situation. If the "green movement" was so beneficial, Spain wouldn't be teetering on bankruptcy/collapse! We can add California to that equation also, since they, for lack of a better term, have been pioneering this program in the US. It might be a good argument if productive jobs were being created by entreprenuers.

Don't get me wrong, I like clean streets, clean air etc, just like anyone else but when the govt wants to pump billions & billions of dollars into initiatives that may or may not produce the desired output, we have to realize we are just digging a deeper hole. Presently, we have a $14 trillion hole! Do you want to keep diggin?

If it can be done in a way to benefit the nation, the free market will provide the solution.
 
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thats all good but its time to be real about the situation. If the "green movement" was so beneficial, Spain wouldn't be teetering on bankruptcy/collapse! We can add California to that equation also, since they, for lack of a better term, have been pioneering this program in the US. It might be a good argument if productive jobs were being created by entreprenuers.

Don't get me wrong, I like clean streets, clean air etc, just like anyone else but when the govt wants to pump billions & billions of dollars into initiatives that may or may not produce the desired output, we have to realize we are just digging a deeper hole. Presently, we have a $14 trillion hole! Do you want to keep diggin?

If it can be done in a way to benefit the nation, the free market will provide the solution.

Spain and California aren't collapsing because they put all their money into renewable energy. Just as that 14 trillion dollar hole isn't because of investing in renewable energy. California is broke because they put everything to a referendum and the people of California vote for every entitlement but against every tax hike.
The free market hasn't done one thing without aid (money) from the government. One is not going to do it without the other.
 
Spain and California aren't collapsing because they put all their money into renewable energy. Just as that 14 trillion dollar hole isn't because of investing in renewable energy. California is broke because they put everything to a referendum and the people of California vote for every entitlement but against every tax hike.

I thought about that when I was typing but I got side-tracked. Ok, I won't attribute Cali's debt completely with the "green movement" but I don't see where it benefits their citizens. I'll say it again, I like clean streets, clean air etc, but How is this initiative producing anything other than debt?

"We're being taken for a ride!" Just like when Al Gore told us NAFTA is a good deal for America

The free market hasn't done one thing without aid (money) from the government. One is not going to do it without the other.

put it like this: with todays political climate, you are correct (then again, we don't have a free market today, it's centrally-planned by the govt)! Nonetheless, I made the thread a while back implying "Big Oil" was behind the "green movement". Mark my words U-Dave, Exxon, Shell, Chevron or BP will benefit tremendously as we march towards this "green economy" at the expense of the coal industry. We're shutting down productive operations for an initiative that has not been proven to be beneficial to American workers

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Just a new way to bring in more money to support government waste.



Title: Wash. considers extra fee on electric cars
Source: UPI
URL Source: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011 ... electric-cars/UPI-
Published: Feb 8, 2011
Author: UPI
Post Date: 2011-02-08 19:52:18 by WhiteSands

SEATTLE, Feb. 8 (UPI) -- Drivers of electric vehicles in Washington state won't be paying gas taxes, so the state wants some of the lost money back by means of an annual $100 fee.

Under a bill introduced in the Legislature, electric-car owners would pay a special $100 fee each year over and above any other required fees and taxes, The Seattle Times reported Monday.

Senate Transportation Committee Chairwoman Mary Margaret Haugen said it's an issue of fairness.

"Electric cars will be driving on the highways right along with all the other cars. One of our biggest issues is preservation and maintenance of our existing highways," Haugen, lead sponsor of the bill, said. "We believe they should be paying their fair share."

The Washington Department of Transportation estimates an owner of a gasoline-powered car who drives 12,000 miles per year pays an average $204 in state gas taxes.

The state gas tax is 37.5 cents per gallon.

One anti-tax activist said he doesn't think what's in Haugen's bill is a fee at all.

"That's a tax. It's no fee," Tim Eyman said.

Automaker Nissan, which sells the all-electric Leaf sedan in the state, is neutral on the measure, company spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said.

"Whenever new technology is being introduced, we'd like to see as few barriers to entry as possible. However, we recognize the need for all drivers to contribute to road-maintenance funds," the company said in a statement provided by Zachary.
 
Lamarr must be on the parole of an energy company. The real reason for the collapse in Spain. An what led to this was the multinational bank derivative and loan scams. Capitalism on the march!

source: Wharton School



Real Estate Collapses, and Spain Trembles



Spanish real estate and construction firms are suffering a significant correction in their stock prices. This has sparked questions about the health of the sector, and alarmed investors and families that have mortgages to pay off. According to some organizations, people’s homes could be overvalued by as much as 30%. The construction sector has been one of the country’s motors of growth, so its cooling down could also affect the Gross Domestic Product (GDP).
The collapse of the stock market began with Astroc, the Valencia-based real estate firm, whose shares dropped by more than 64% in barely five sessions beginning in mid-April. Other companies followed, including Cleop, which has dropped by 20.5% since April 18. Fadesa has dropped 16.6%, and other companies such as Urbas, Colonia, Inmocaral, Montebalito, Sacyr Vallehermoso and FCC have all seen their share prices drop by more than 10% during this period.

Share prices for all of these companies had shot up along with housing prices. The factors responsible for that rise include the [increasing number of] foreign buyers of vacation homes, affluent immigrants and low interest rates. More specifically, prices for apartments and houses accelerated at an annual rate of 15% between 1999 and 2005. “What happened is something normal within this market,” notes Miguel Hernández, director of the real estate management program at the Instituto de Empresa in
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:STATE><ST1:PLACE>Madrid</ST1:PLACE></ST1:STATE>. “We had been quite surprised by the share prices of some companies, and how much they had gone up in recent years. The prices of these companies should be based on [the value of] their assets, and not on expectations as in other sectors. Astroc is a clear example of this.”

Explanations for the Collapse

Shares of real estate companies have traditionally been priced below the net value of their assets. According to Sergio R. Torassa, professor of finance at <ST1:PLACE><ST1:PLACENAME>European</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACETYPE>University</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE>, it was common until a few years ago for share prices in this group to be 40% to 50% below the value of their assets. “There was then a break from normalcy. In other words, their share prices are higher than what they would be worth if they sold all of their real estate.” Nowadays, shares of leading real estate companies sell at an average of 14.57% above the value of the assets they control.

Pilar Gómez Aparicio, professor at the
<ST1:PLACE><ST1:PLACENAME>Complutense</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACETYPE>University</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE> and researcher of the school of cooperative studies, says that “the market is very sensitive to expectations, and this sector is evidently at the end of a boom. Real estate firms and construction companies have taken on a great deal of debt in order to finance their growth, which has increased their financial risk. Add to this the potentially higher economic risk derived from the gradual exhaustion of the current growth phase of the sector and the fall in demand.” For Gómez, it is clear that “the stock market is very sensitive, and the sector had already shown signs of weakness. The crisis of Astroc, which spread to other companies, has made it clear that expectations are changing, and that people fear that the slowdown in the real estate market will be greater than anticipated.”
This situation has caused many shareholders and property owners to turn their attention toward the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>United States</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>, which is currently experiencing a significant slowdown in its residential and construction market and a marked slowdown in its economic growth. This crisis has put the mortgage sector at high risk, and led to a sharp drop in the price of used homes – the highest drop since 1989 – as well as declining prices in the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>U.S.</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>
The government of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> has attempted to calm these fears. Pedro Solbes, second vice-president and Minister of Economics and The Treasury, has said that the drop in the Spanish stock market is not something “anomalous” or “worrisome.” He said it is merely a “significant correction” in the stock prices of real estate companies, although “some people are jumping to that conclusion.” Solbes also commented on the current condition of the Spanish real estate market. “Should this market give people good cause for general concern? My response is no, because I believe that families are enjoying higher incomes, and there are good job opportunities,” Solbes told the Spanish Senate.

Is This a Bubble?

Nevertheless, some observers, such as the Financial Times, believe that this market shows “all the signs of a bubble about to burst.” The British newspaper used the word “unfortunate” to describe the possible burst, and warned investors about the need to avoid the riskiest investments. “It will be interesting to see if panic among investors irrationally travels to other real estate markets in <ST1:PLACE>Europe</ST1:PLACE> and beyond,” the newspaper said.
In its latest report about <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>, the OECD warned that housing prices are “overvalued by about 30% above the long-term equilibrium level.” The organization notes that in 2006, prices continued to rise by almost 10%, which means that they have risen by a cumulative 130% since 1996.
Gómez Aparicio notes that prices have risen in recent years “to a significant degree, sparked by strong demand and other factors such as good financial conditions and tax laws regarding housing property, among other things.” As a result, she added, rising prices “are not caused by a change in psychology but can be explained by concrete economic and demographic factors.”
The latest official data provide reasons for the government to begin an “orderly and gradual” slowdown in housing prices, to the point where they begin to behave in line with the Consumer Price Index. According to the government, the average price of real estate in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> rose 7.2% during the first quarter of this year, compared with the same period in 2006. That represents the lowest growth rate since 1999.
Altina Sebastián Gonzalez, professor of finance at the <ST1:PLACE><ST1:PLACENAME>Complutense</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACETYPE>University</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE> in <ST1:STATE><ST1:PLACE>Madrid</ST1:PLACE></ST1:STATE>, believes that real estate prices will be the key to the future of stock prices in this sector. “If prices for housing continue to gradually slow down, as they have up until now, the worst phase may already be over. However, if there is a sharp drop, it will have a great deal of impact on share prices. In that sense, data about this sector for the first quarter, which will be published in a few days, will be critical for estimating the magnitude of the slowdown.
Falling Prices
Despite positive official figures, some experts believe that prices could begin to fall. International analysts and investment funds made that assertion at a recent conference hosted by Santander Group in <ST1:CITY><ST1:PLACE>London</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY>. Along the same lines, BNP Paribas forecasts that excessive supply on the Spanish market, along with a gradual rise in interest rates, will produce a deflation in real estate prices and a crisis in the construction sector.

Some researchers and private sector analysts have already begun to find support for that theory. The latest report by idealista.com, a real estate web site, reveals that prices for used housing in
<ST1:STATE><ST1:PLACE>Madrid</ST1:PLACE></ST1:STATE> and <ST1:CITY><ST1:PLACE>Barcelona</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY> have remained practically stable during the first quarter of this year; they grew by only 0.8% and 0.5%, respectively. Along with this slowdown, the latest numbers “confirm a slowdown in the prices of old homes in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>, which will be more rapid than initially foreseen. If the growth rates registered in the first quarter were to be maintained for the rest of the year, price rises would already be around the Consumer Price Index or even below it,” said idealista.com.

Meanwhile, prices of vacation homes in the principal coastal destinations have begun to decline, and could face a drop that exceeds recent figures in the
<ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>United States</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>. Over the past 12 months, the cost of residential homes has dropped by 4.7% along the <ST1:PLACE>Costa del Sol</ST1:PLACE>, according to a study by Aguirre Newman, a real estate brokerage. Meanwhile, Acuña and Associates, a Madrid-based real-estate consultant, believes that it is likely that prices for second homes will fall by as much as 10% this year.

The reasons for dropping prices can be found in the loan restrictions that are being imposed by banks on real estate developers. Significantly, for example, real estate developer Martinsa y Habitat is paying five times more for its debt than such
<ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>U.S.</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> real estate developers as Dallas-based Centex, according to reports by Bloomberg. Even United Airlines, which suspended its payments last year, pays a lower risk premium for its loans.

Daniel Álvarez, former head of international sales at Don Piso, a real estate firm, explains that whenever sales drop, “the first area that suffers is second homes; then, primary residences are the next to be affected.”

Already, the volume of new mortgages sold to Spanish families has fallen by 10%, according to the Spanish Mortgage Association. In addition, developers have observed a slowdown in the time period it takes to make a sale. From the time that a property comes out on the market until it is purchased, the delay is already more than two years; in some cases, it is three years. That compares with the six months that it took to find a buyer at the beginning of 2005.
Analysts cite two key favors for the slowdown: The oversupply that exists in the market as well as current financial conditions, which have worsened as a result of rising interest rates within the euro zone. Families have to work harder and harder in order to buy a home.
Increasing Arrears
In December 2005, the European Central Bank began a new phase in its series of interest rate hikes. Since then, the price of money has gone up on seven occasions. It is now at 3.75%, the highest level since November 2001. This monetary policy has propelled the euribor, the main index for fixing mortgage prices in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>, to 4.25% in April. That was the highest level since July 2001. The price of the average loan in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> has risen by 0.7 points, and the [average] monthly installment payment had risen by more than 88 euros.
Another cause for concern is the rising number of payments that are in arrears. During the third quarter of 2006, the RMBS index, which measures the number of mortgages that are in arrears, rose by 22 basis points to 1.52%, the highest level in at least four years. According to this indicator, the institutions that have been most often affected by delayed payments are the UCI, a leading marketer of mortgage loans; as well as <ST1:CITY><ST1:PLACE>Santander</ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY>, BNP Paribas, and Banco Pastor.

Nevertheless, the current situation does not seem to be alarming. Standard & Poor’s forecasts that increased rates will not affect the ability of families to comply with their financial commitments. It also asserts that the index of payments in arrears is at “relatively low” level. In its report Standard & Poor’s adds that “Variable rate products predominate in the Spanish mortgage market. Nevertheless, the impact of the rising price of money has been less than in other countries of the euro zone because inflation has been higher [in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>], so real interest rates have been lower in comparison with other markets.”
Keys to the Future
Banks will provide the key to the future of the real estate sector, says Hernández. He anticipates that immigrants who now share rented housing will enter the real estate market. “They will start going to banks to apply for mortgages. Depending on the requirements imposed on them by financial institutions, a greater or smaller number of houses will be sold. That will determine whether the market winds up being strangled.”

In any case, Hernández notes that other businesses exist within the real estate sector apart from housing. These other businesses include offices, shopping centers and industrial plants. “The housing market is in the worst condition of them all, but the others, especially office properties, are doing very well. In some cities, demand even exceeds supply. This means that companies in this sector have another sort of business that enables them to move forward.”

Pilar Gómez believes that “the market will adjust gradually” in the future. “Demand will continue to drop, and real estate activity will also moderate. Nevertheless, this moderation in the market is nothing more than the end of a remarkable period of real estate expansion that could not and must not continue indefinitely. Actually, this adjustment in prices is something more moderate than in previous cycles. So long as there is disposable income for homes, and so long as employment levels remain at their current levels, the adjustment will continue to be smooth.”
For his part, Torassa argues that “It is unreasonable to expect the indiscriminate collapse of the entire real estate, or the equally indiscriminate spread [of this slowdown] to other sectors that have business ties founded on expectations that there will be a continued smooth landing in the sector. That [smooth landing] scenario seems more probable over the next two or three years.

What will happen to the Spanish economy, given the fact that the construction industry has been one of its principal engines of growth? Analysts at BNP Paribas note that the construction sector employs 14% of all manual workers in the country. They estimate that a cooling down of the housing market could have a negative effect on the economy. They say it could mean that
<ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>’s GDP will not grow beyond a rate of 2% to 3% in the [two-year] period of 2008 to 2009. At the moment, <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>Spain</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> is still expanding at a rate of above 3.5%.
Sebastián calculates that, independently of speculative demand, the balance between housing supply and demand is at about 400,000 to 450,000 annual units. “This level assumes that production of new houses will drop by 30%, which could mean the destruction of some 200,000 jobs.” According to her forecast, “This potential drop in the number of jobs should not be too traumatic for the Spanish economy given that redundant workers would be absorbed by the industrial and service sectors.”
 
Lamarr must be on the parole of an energy company. The real reason for the collapse in Spain. An what led to this was the multinational bank derivative and loan scams. Capitalism on the march!

govt subsidies + Too Big To Fail = Fascism!

Serious question, we're $14 trillion in the hole, Do we continue diggin that hole? Its a pie-in-the-sky crapshoot whether this can produce sustainable jobs, and if it does in fact, lead to benefits for citizens, Gunner's post shows the govt is already contemplating ways to penalize the very taxpayers who carry the burden.

Like I said, Chevron, Exxon, Shell will benefit bigtime from this "green" debacle. Chevron Energy Solutions is the largest installer of solar for U.S. educational institutions. Big Oil + Big govt = fascism
 
govt subsidies + Too Big To Fail = Fascism!

Serious question, we're $14 trillion in the hole, Do we continue diggin that hole? Its a pie-in-the-sky crapshoot whether this can produce sustainable jobs, and if it does in fact, lead to benefits for citizens, Gunner's post shows the govt is already contemplating ways to penalize the very taxpayers who carry the burden.

Like I said, Chevron, Exxon, Shell will benefit bigtime from this "green" debacle. Chevron Energy Solutions is the largest installer of solar for U.S. educational institutions. Big Oil + Big govt = fascism

Serious question, we're $14 trillion in the hole,


Cut back defense 50%
 
Then maybe we should have taken the money we give in subsidies to multi billion dollar, multi national oil companies and given some of it to Pickens. Just a thought.
Greed definitely was a driving force but it was aided by government money and investment.




Interesting.

Now for the retort
http://http://blog.mlive.com/green-blawg/2009/07/green_jobs_mean_job_loss_not_l.html


"Green" jobs mean job loss? Not likely.
In a recent article in the Saginaw News, former Michigan Department of Environmental Quality Director under Governor John Engler, Russ Harding, cited a study by a Spanish University professor that suggested that "green" jobs actually resulted in an overall loss of jobs. In fact, the study claimed that nine jobs would be lost for every four created. Many commentators and bloggers who challenge current efforts at greening the ecomomy and society have siezed upon this study as the silver bullet in support of their arguments against the current efforts underway locally and nationally to establish green jobs. The results of the report, if true, present an alarming picture, to be sure. However, a closer review demonstrates that there may not be much there there.

Critiques about the study start with the author's objectivity. Gabriel Calzada Alvarez is the study's Research Director. According to Media Matters which reviewed the claims, identified the author as being involved with a variety of organizations with a libertarian bent and funded by groups who argue against the existence of global climate change. This, by itself, is probably not adequate to challenge the findings of the study itself. However, even the Wall Street Journal seemed to take the study's findings with a grain of salt:

And just where did that study come from? Professor Gabriel Calzada is the founder and president of the Fundacion Juan de Mariana, a libertarian think tank founded in 2005. He's also a fellow of the Center for New Europe, a Brussels-based libertarian think thank than in recent years apparently accepted funding from Exxon Mobil.
As one can imagine, criticism of the study, its findings and its author came quite quickly and furiously by those supporting the current governmental and private investment in green jobs. The Green Economy Post published one particularly detailed critique.

It seems intuitive that as the world moves away from fossil fuels, either because of concerns about global climate change, peak oil, increased costs of some fossil fuels, or national security issues, something will need to take their place. This is not a question of whether we are going in that direction, it is a question of when and whether the United States will lead in this endeavor and benefit from the economic fruits or be a follower, buying the necessary technology and logistical support from overseas.

The debate about global climate change will likely continue unabated for some time. But there are any number of other good reasons why we should be moving towards a greener economy and society. For example, given that wind energy jobs have now exceeded that of coal mining, the trend seems pretty clear and the Spanish study may either not be applicable here or overstates the author's conclusions. In either event, those who point to that study to oppose the current investment in green jobs may need to find additional support for their position.

UPDATE: Policy makers in other countries have apparently not taken the Spanish university study very seriously. South Korea, for example, just announced that it was going to spend the equivalent of two percent of its gross domestic product, or $85 billion, to invest in environmental technology over the next five years. And a study by the Pew Charitable Trust concluded that jobs in emerging clean technology industries grew two and a half times faster than other jobs between 1998 and 2007. As it stands now, the Spanish study would appear to be, at best, an outlier



China taking it so serious they bought a US renewable energy company when our government wouldn't grant any funds...oh and they're footing the bill for the company to relocate to China :smh:


I just learned about this in class. My MBA concentration is Green Energy or the "Green" MBA. Folks, this is the future even if the US can't see it.

http://www.cleanenergyauthority.com...ergreen-solar-moves-facility-to-china-012711/
 
No, I don't mean that at all. As you noted, there was already science saying this wasn't a good idea and they did it anyway. Is that the only example of China or India or any other country exploring renewable energy?



Not at all. It means it's expensive and can be cost prohibitive to a company who's competing against other like companies.

A. No, it isn't the only example, but an accurate microcosm of the true effect of so much centralized planning.

B. Many of the technologies we have today and used yesterday, were developed without any government funding. If the money is there, so will investment.

Government (and many in big business) have fooled you into thinking that they need government "investment" (tax money) in order to create. All it is to them is a secure a line of funding coming from those who have no choice but to fund it.

And, like the article pointed out, much of the job growth does not create, but use, energy.

The government did not create the better mouse trap before,so what makes you think it will do so now ?
 
A. No, it isn't the only example, but an accurate microcosm of the true effect of so much centralized planning.

B. Many of the technologies we have today and used yesterday, were developed without any government funding. If the money is there, so will investment.

Government (and many in big business) have fooled you into thinking that they need government "investment" (tax money) in order to create. All it is to them is a secure a line of funding coming from those who have no choice but to fund it.

And, like the article pointed out, much of the job growth does not create, but use, energy.

The government did not create the better mouse trap before,so what makes you think it will do so now ?


Many of the technologies we have today and used yesterday, were developed without any government funding.

And many are developed with government funding. Take this thing you are on right now:


r159769_583213.jpg

"The Internets"
 
A. No, it isn't the only example, but an accurate microcosm of the true effect of so much centralized planning.

B. Many of the technologies we have today and used yesterday, were developed without any government funding. If the money is there, so will investment.

Government (and many in big business) have fooled you into thinking that they need government "investment" (tax money) in order to create. All it is to them is a secure a line of funding coming from those who have no choice but to fund it.

And, like the article pointed out, much of the job growth does not create, but use, energy.

The government did not create the better mouse trap before,so what makes you think it will do so now ?


Which ones? I'm interested to know that. Which ones had no government funding for research and/or development, no subsidies, no tax breaks and that includes all R&D done at public universities?

That list, guaranteed, will be shorter than the list of things that did.
 
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