Are men important in the black community?

[DaAssWatcher]

I think i want to say the final Was it. When men stopped being men. When they took the easy way and just left and forgot their place in the world. In their childrens lives. Everything in society right now tells a black man he's not needed. Or wanted. And it's just a trickle down effect.

Are they important? I want to believe they are. They SHOULD be. But as they are right now? No.

I disagree tha Black man was always there.Tha image of what a Black man is got replaced by tha image of tha ignorant nigga thats always in jail,multiple BMs and who thinks its cool to remain dumb and ignorant.Its gotten so bad
a majority of tha people done bought into it.







Everyone can tell you who this is.

Before they can tell you who this is.

 

[dHustla]

I disagree tha Black man was always there.Tha image of what a Black man is got replaced by tha image of tha ignorant nigga thats always in jail,multiple BMs and who thinks its cool to remain dumb and ignorant.Its gotten so bad
a majority of tha people done bought into it.







Everyone can tell you who this is.

Before they can tell you who this is.

I halfway agree with your points. I say and do ignorant shit, but it doesn't define me. People are often surprised when they hear me say something that they consider ignorant, because they figure I'm beyond it.

I still say nigga, bitch, and hoe. I still say "shawty". I will beat a nigga ass if need be, and so on and so forth.

But you know what? I don't have not one child, no baby-mama, I'm self-employed, yes, I've been locked up a few times and sometimes it's my fault, I'm always working to better myself, I'm always looking to fulfill my thirst for knowledge, etc.

So, I don't agree with you on the image thing. I do agree that many people tend to focus on "images" instead of substance.

Most of the time I'm profiled by police and locked up because I'm categorized as having the same image as those whom you described. The problem for the police (and me ) is that I don't smoke reefa, I don't sell dope, I don't tote illegal tools, I don't beat bitches ass, and I have a good idea of why they pulled me over angry: )

Solution:
I think we would all be better served if we didn't feed into these images, directly & indirectly, that the media shoves in our face and that they so love to glamorize.

Example: I don't care what a nigga look like or how much jewelry he has if he makes good music (yes, I like a few of Gucci's songs). But for that reason I don't really watch videos looking for those things. One Gucci Mane song & video I like is for "My Own Worst Enemy" and he ain't wearing no jewelry, no chains, no wristbands, no bunch of goofy ass rings.... just him saying whats on his mind.

The images that you speak of shouldn't hold as much weight as what constitutes the person's character.

 

[dHustla]

bump

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I paused when I read the bolded text.

I continued to read your points that there is a problem across and throughout our entire demographic. I agree that there is a problem... but baby, the problem didn't manifest itself, nor did it happen overnight.

I said it's the black man's fault because, to me the black man allowed this to happen to his people. Instead of standing strong he laid down and died. Yes now we have a simulation of what these black males are. But not MEN. Strong positive caring MEN. Where are they? Yes there's some. But why aren't ehre more? Why didn't those who are MEN take those who aren't men to the side and instruct? Enforce?

I know i'll probably hear something along the lines of..."each man is his own responsibility" Or "we're not a homogenous people" And i believe THAT'S the problem. The every dude for himself ideal is the problem. So, that's why i said that. I married my husband because of all the men i'd seen in my life, he was the only man i'd ever known who felt truly responsible for his brothers. When asked was he his brothers keeper he was the only 1 i knew to say Yes i am.

The problem of absentee men in the household is one that is a culmination of individual equations that are, themselves, inequitable.

I'm sorry for your loss, dear, I really am. But women play a part in these equations as well. There is no one entity or group that bears the burden of blame for our broken homes. I believe in going to the root of the problem and working from there. Coming up. The black woman is not the head of the family. The Man is. The black men are our leaders. We're the support role. So if you're the boss then the 1 who bears the responsibility is the man. Just how i see it. You pay the cost to be the boss. I'm saddened by the lack of true black men in our communities. I'm not angry tho and i'll never run around saying i HATE or even DISLIKE black men. I'm just sad is all.

Women and men alike share responsibility because, if for no other reason, without them both there would be no family unit.

With that said, I'm reminded of another movie scene that maybe more have seen. "Raisin in the sun", the scene where Phylicia Rashad (I know it ain't the original) was talking to Sanaa Lathan about Puffy's recent bafoonish behavior. Phylicia Rashad, playing the mother of the family, told her daughter that "it's the times when men are at the lowest point that they need to be loved the most." 1 of my favorite movies. It's a line that i believe i gave to my husband 110%.

This was profound to me for personal reasons, but let's apply it to this discussion.

I'm aware that this is hard for anyone to do, man or woman, and that we are all the product of our experiences.
So, how many times have you seen a woman love a man the most at his lowest point?

How many times have you seen a woman fail to do this? Put into those terms, plenty of times. But who failed who first? I understand a man's a human being and imperfect and even prone to make mistakes. But in that as a woman how much is she supposed to take? How many mistakes is he supposed to make?

Something ...i don't mean to make this into a my example was so great and wonderful post...But my example was so DIFFERENT from other men that many times i couldn't vibe with alot of sisters about things their men did. In the media either. I couldn't vibe with alot of things because he didn't do alot of those things. he didn't drink he didn't cheat, he didn't mess around, he gave of himself ALL the time, he was always striving to be on top of his game because of his personal beliefs and how he believed he should be an example to his family, friends, children most of all. I was shown th example of what a man is supposed to be doing. And not cooning or being a buffoon. Accidents happen, true. So my counter question is...when does a man have to be accountable for his actions? Are you saying a woman should love a guy no matter what he does? For how long? What's the limit? When is he going to stand up and NOT do this buffoonish behaviour?


***Disclaimer***
We're on SOL do I DO NOT expect or intend for this to dissolve into a woman bashing ball. Only discussion that works towards the progression of Our community and solutions to problems.

I have no intent of taking this as a bash women thread or post. I saw you asking a question.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I disagree tha Black man was always there.Tha image of what a Black man is got replaced by tha image of tha ignorant nigga thats always in jail,multiple BMs and who thinks its cool to remain dumb and ignorant.Its gotten so bad
a majority of tha people done bought into it.

I agree with what you're saying. But i am not sure if we're talking about the same thing. I think i'm just confused on how you put this is all.

 

[dHustla]

I have no intent of taking this as a bash women thread or post. I saw you asking a question.

First, it's hard to break down your post, as you did with mine, when you put your response in my quote.

I'll just address each point by blue paragraph.

I don't disagree that black men share some responsibility, I just think that the burden of responsibility is on more than just the man's part of the foundation. If women are support, what is a man to do when that support is breached, compromised, or corrupted? Mind you, my perspective is of one that has never had a father, nor a father figure, and I don't aspire to have a woman like any one that I grew up around. I had no role models. I said that to say that as a child I saw it go both ways. I saw the err of everyone's ways, and it goes both ways. Also, you can't honestly expect a man to instruct or even get instruction from another man, especially when either sees no problem to find a solution to.
Everybody doesn't have the same starting point, just as everyone isn't progressing at the same point, and everyone isn't going the same place!

The ideal of one being his brother's keeper is an altruistic approach towards growth. Growth that doesn't take place and one doesn't realize is needed when there are things, people, and situations that are arresting one's development. I also thought the same way about being "my brother's keeper" up until I realize that I had no keeper of my own, which I felt was by no fault of my own.

You say that growing up the man is the head of the household, if that's the case, then my household had no head. My point is that I never saw my father, my mother has never been married, I'm inheriting this issue of my Gender dropping the ball. It's not a problem I made, feel me? I understand that in order for US to progress I MUST take some responsibility in correcting the problem, but I ain't make the problem.

TANGENT:I recently watched a DVD called Men are Builders and it was basically an inspirational sermon by a man I can't name right off, but he spoke about the man's role in society, in the household, and generational. He said that every man has 4 generations inside him, 4 generations that he can/will be the source of and has to sustain. He went on to say that some of the things our black men go through in present day has nothing at all to do with them, "it's generational" he said. We're dealing with transgressions of our fathers, and their fathers. Many fathers did not/have not sustained those that they are the source of.
This made sense to me as I couldn't fathom for the life of me why I was subjected to some of the things and situations in life that I have experienced./TANGENT


Your perspective and experiences are valued and appreciated. Something is to be said of men like the one you had, they are out here, but similarly to how Jay-Z says, "once a good girl's gone bad, she's gone forever", the same holds true for men dealing with women. Granted a man's shortcomings may hold more weight because of his role, but consider that some of these men weren't taught how to be men and that many are ill-equipped to deal with what life charges them with.

I was once the same way, didn't drink, didn't smoke, worked 2 jobs and I was in high school, but yet I was still ridiculed, criticized, and made to feel inadequate ... not by peers, but people in my household.

I'm just saying, the shit started somewhere, the egg didn't lay itself.

I'm willing to contribute, but I refuse to bear the weight of problems that were here before me. I'm more than willing to deal with my shit and even that of some of those around me, but I'm selective of those whom I support, I gotta see potential.

 

[melonpecan]

Everyone can tell you who this is.

Before they can tell you who this is.

I'm sorry but I know neither. Please enlighten us to the second picture...he looks like he is about something other than useless metals and gems around his neck.

 

[dHustla]

He looks like the rapper B.O.B.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I'll just address each point by blue paragraph.

I don't disagree that black men share some responsibility, I just think that the burden of responsibility is on more than just the man's part of the foundation. I just do not believe this. As the commander and chief of our family and our communities then his responsibility is first and formost. If women are support, what is a man to do when that support is breached, compromised, or corrupted? Who picked that support system? If a weak support system was chosen then who's responsibility is it?Mind you, my perspective is of one that has never had a father, nor a father figure, and I don't aspire to have a woman like any one that I grew up around. I had no role models. I said that to say that as a child I saw it go both ways. I saw the err of everyone's ways, and it goes both ways. Also, you can't honestly expect a man to instruct or even get instruction from another man, especially when either sees no problem to find a solution to. I disagree. As a man than it's his responsibility to teach and show those who do not know.
Everybody doesn't have the same starting point, just as everyone isn't progressing at the same point, and everyone isn't going the same place!
Understand that viewpoint. Mine is that MEN should get us on the path to that same place.
The ideal of one being his brother's keeper is an altruistic approach towards growth. Growth that doesn't take place and one doesn't realize is needed when there are things, people, and situations that are arresting one's development. I also thought the same way about being "my brother's keeper" up until I realize that I had no keeper of my own, which I felt was by no fault of my own. Let me ask you this, of yourself personally i guess i'm trying to see where you're going with this. So you're saying because you didn't see it that means it can't be done? If no one if you knew ever owned land...a business...a home...That means to you that it can't be done simply because you didn't see it being done? I respectfully do not see it this way. I myself grew up in a unsavory situation and it made me want what i did not have. It made me want for my children and grandchildren to have much better than what happened to me. As well as anyone else i came into contact with. And that's the type of mate i sought. Someone who believed the same and more. And as a man he would take the lead.

You say that growing up the man is the head of the household, if that's the case, then my household had no head. My point is that I never saw my father, my mother has never been married, I'm inheriting this issue of my Gender dropping the ball. It's not a problem I made, feel me? I understand that in order for US to progress I MUST take some responsibility in correcting the problem, but I ain't make the problem. Ok you understand what i see as a root, 1 of the roots. But my thing now is...now that you KNOW. You take the lead and be the first. Change the plan. Break the cycle. Do it differently.

Your perspective and experiences are valued and appreciated. Something is to be said of men like the one you had, they are out here, but similarly to how Jay-Z says, "once a good girl's gone bad, she's gone forever", Balderdash. No one tells me or predicts for me what i will be or how my destiny will play out. I've seen people switch their whole mindsets around and turn their lives around. It takes effort, time and will. But through that i do believe anything is possible the same holds true for men dealing with women. Granted a man's shortcomings may hold more weight because of his role, but consider that some of these men weren't taught how to be men and that many are ill-equipped to deal with what life charges them with. Now this i completely and totally agree with and understand. Many males are completely ill equipped to deal with what life is like out there and how to make things better. BUT...when is this going to stop being an excuse? When the black racial diaspora is extinct? How long can men walk around throwing up their hands saying, "i didn't know.", "nobody was there to teach me."? This is sort of my point from my original post in this thread. Black men ARE needed and they ARE important. But because of how things are now? How black males are now? is this what we need? Absolutely not. We need MEN who are going to throw off those excuses and stand and be accountable and take the reigns.


I'm willing to contribute, but I refuse to bear the weight of problems that were here before me. I'm more than willing to deal with my shit and even that of some of those around me, but I'm selective of those whom I support, I gotta see potential.

 

[dHustla]

Now this i completely and totally agree with and understand. Many males are completely ill equipped to deal with what life is like out there and how to make things better. BUT...when is this going to stop being an excuse? When the black racial diaspora is extinct? How long can men walk around throwing up their hands saying, "i didn't know.", "nobody was there to teach me."? This is sort of my point from my original post in this thread. Black men ARE needed and they ARE important. But because of how things are now? How black males are now? is this what we need? Absolutely not. We need MEN who are going to throw off those excuses and stand and be accountable and take the reigns.

It's not an excuse, it's the truth.

There is a difference between an excuse and a reason.

Like I said, I'm willing to do my part, but to carry another man's weight...... there is a thin line between being a help and being a hindrance, between carrying what someone cannot and being dragged down by toting what someone won't.

If I allow myself to be someone's crutch, I do him and I an injustice. If for no other reason, because I could offer the same help, the same resources to someone that "would if they could" as opposed to giving it to someone that "won't, so they don't"

Everybody that's black AIN'T a/my brother, and I can't save the world.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

Nothing much for me to say. I believe much differently about this subject and about what is needed in our communities. In our families.

 

[SoopamanLuva]

Nothing much for me to say. I believe much differently about this subject and about what is needed in our communities. In our families.

What are your solutions? To sit around and wait until men get right? What about the women that are just as lost? If the men are responsible for the Men, are we responsible for the women also? Do they not have work to do?
Because too many times i have heard about older women's influence the younger generations in a negative manner. Some of that is earned by men...but some of it is not.

You make a vey good argument but blaming it all on men is not the answer. Women are just as culpable. it took a 50-50 effort to get this far. Instead of blaming each other, how about some solutions.

Take Adam and Eve for example. Eve ate the forbidden fruit...but Adam was standing right there and let her. He should have been man enough to stop her and she should have listen to direction and not ate it in the first place. They both had a hand in their demise and are equally responsible for it.

But we are beyond the point of placing blame, we need solutions now. I know a lot of people with a story similar to DHustlas, some are in my family. But i also know people who grew up like me(2 parent households, parents married 30+ years) and the men you speak of ARE out there. There are more than you know. But, if you are looking to the media and similar outlets for a confirmation that they are there, you wont get it. There is a systematic destruction of our community going on and you can watch it live on your local news.(In my City) But they wont show the Big brothers, Big sisters BBQ they had last week. Or the 300 Men march around the Inner city etc. There are a lot of Mentoring things going on in my city. You just don't hear about them and they hardly ever get publicity because being positive aint cool in this society.

 

[DaAssWatcher]

I'm sorry but I know neither. Please enlighten us to the second picture...he looks like he is about something other than useless metals and gems around his neck.

1st pic Gucci Mane
Second is Dr.Marc Lamont Hill.Professor at Columbia U and I think hes still on O'Reilly show.They go back and forth on topics.He stands his ground and doesn't behave like those other coons on that network.He even throws his opinion on HipHop.Got at rapper Slim Thugg for tha comments he made 2 weeks ago.Thread is on tha main board.

Marc Lamont Hill is an American academic and currently serves as an Associate Professor of Education and Anthropology at Teachers College, an affiliate of Columbia University. He is also an affiliated faculty member in African American Studies at Columbia University. Hill is a political contributor for Fox News Channel where he is a regular guest on The O'Reilly Factor, Geraldo at Large, and Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld.[1] He was also a regular contributor to TheRoot.com.
Prior to joining Fox News Channel, Hill was a regular commentator on CNN, MSNBC, and Court TV, where he was a weekly contributor to the Star Jones show. Hill has been involved in activism, arguing for the release of Genarlow Wilson and Shaquanda Cotton. In the Cotton case, Hill organized a mass internet letter writing campaign that helped to place a spotlight on the case and secure her early release.
Trained as an anthropologist of education, Hill's academic work focuses on the intersections between youth culture, identity, and educational processes. He is the author of Beats, Rhymes, and Classroom Life: Hip-Hop Pedagogy and the Politics of Identity. He holds a Ph.D. with distinction from the University of Pennsylvania and a B.S. from Temple University. From 2005-2009, he was Assistant Professor of Urban Education and American Studies at Temple University.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

He is the author of Beats, Rhymes, and Classroom Life: Hip-Hop Pedagogy and the Politics of Identity.

I have this book. lol

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

What are your solutions? To sit around and wait until men get right? What about the women that are just as lost? If the men are responsible for the Men, are we responsible for the women also? Do they not have work to do?
Because too many times i have heard about older women's influence the younger generations in a negative manner. Some of that is earned by men...but some of it is not.

You make a vey good argument but blaming it all on men is not the answer. Women are just as culpable. it took a 50-50 effort to get this far. Instead of blaming each other, how about some solutions.

Take Adam and Eve for example. Eve ate the forbidden fruit...but Adam was standing right there and let her. He should have been man enough to stop her and she should have listen to direction and not ate it in the first place. They both had a hand in their demise and are equally responsible for it.

But we are beyond the point of placing blame, we need solutions now. I know a lot of people with a story similar to DHustlas, some are in my family. But i also know people who grew up like me(2 parent households, parents married 30+ years) and the men you speak of ARE out there. There are more than you know. But, if you are looking to the media and similar outlets for a confirmation that they are there, you wont get it. There is a systematic destruction of our community going on and you can watch it live on your local news.(In my City) But they wont show the Big brothers, Big sisters BBQ they had last week. Or the 300 Men march around the Inner city etc. There are a lot of Mentoring things going on in my city. You just don't hear about them and they hardly ever get publicity because being positive aint cool in this society.

I suspected this would happen. I just want to say, my 2nd or 3rd post i believe i did say i am not bashing men. Nor do i believe that anything can really be done at this point. I believe we are lost. And headed for extinction. The way i see it, is that the question was asked. And i answered with what i believed. The general idea is every man for himself. And get by the best way you can get by with yourself. By yourself. We've long passed the point of no return i think. There's no real hope for us as a people. In relationships, in our communities.

Your post to me is an example of what i mean. It's not something i blame anyone for. It's just something i've accepted as an "IS". Just stating what i see. I'm not throwing tomatos at black men. Far from it. I'm still uplifting and supporting those i can. Not that i think it will really DO anything. But it's really just a personal statement. Something to DO while i'm here. It's an example i follow.

You're right, being positive and uplifting isn't cool. It's work. It's the hard path. It's the way of a dying breed. Or a dead breed. Opinions will vary.

 

[SoopamanLuva]

And this way of thinking is part of theproblem. The positive brothers and sisters are not a dying breed. They are alive and well and doing things in the community RIGHT NOW. They just don't get recognition from a media standpoint for their efforts.

I suspected this would happen. I just want to say, my 2nd or 3rd post i believe i did say i am not bashing men. Nor do i believe that anything can really be done at this point. I believe we are lost. And headed for extinction. The way i see it, is that the question was asked. And i answered with what i believed. The general idea is every man for himself. And get by the best way you can get by with yourself. By yourself. We've long passed the point of no return i think. There's no real hope for us as a people. In relationships, in our communities.

Your post to me is an example of what i mean. It's not something i blame anyone for. It's just something i've accepted as an "IS". Just stating what i see. I'm not throwing tomatos at black men. Far from it. I'm still uplifting and supporting those i can. Not that i think it will really DO anything. But it's really just a personal statement. Something to DO while i'm here. It's an example i follow.

You're right, being positive and uplifting isn't cool. It's work. It's the hard path. It's the way of a dying breed. Or a dead breed. Opinions will vary.

 

[dHustla]

What are your solutions? To sit around and wait until men get right? What about the women that are just as lost? If the men are responsible for the Men, are we responsible for the women also? Do they not have work to do?
Because too many times i have heard about older women's influence the younger generations in a negative manner. Some of that is earned by men...but some of it is not.

You make a vey good argument but blaming it all on men is not the answer. Women are just as culpable. it took a 50-50 effort to get this far. Instead of blaming each other, how about some solutions.

Take Adam and Eve for example. Eve ate the forbidden fruit...but Adam was standing right there and let her. He should have been man enough to stop her and she should have listen to direction and not ate it in the first place. They both had a hand in their demise and are equally responsible for it.

But we are beyond the point of placing blame, we need solutions now. I know a lot of people with a story similar to DHustlas, some are in my family. But i also know people who grew up like me(2 parent households, parents married 30+ years) and the men you speak of ARE out there. There are more than you know. But, if you are looking to the media and similar outlets for a confirmation that they are there, you wont get it. There is a systematic destruction of our community going on and you can watch it live on your local news.(In my City) But they wont show the Big brothers, Big sisters BBQ they had last week. Or the 300 Men march around the Inner city etc. There are a lot of Mentoring things going on in my city. You just don't hear about them and they hardly ever get publicity because being positive aint cool in this society.

My Man!

*and thanks for the shoutout*

 

[dHustla]

Dr.Marc Lamont Hill [...] Got at rapper Slim Thugg for tha comments he made 2 weeks ago.Thread is on tha main board.

Didn't know anything about Slim Thug's comments. I googled it and came up with this...

http://www.vibe.com/posts/slim-thug-black-women-need-stand-their-man-more

The way Black people think in general is messed up. Both men and women need to change their way of thinking. It’s hard to trust a Black woman [sometimes] because a lot of Black women’s mind frame is that the man gotta do everything for her⎯ he gotta pay for this, he gotta pay for that, and if it ain’t about money then a lot of them ain’t fucking with him. If that’s what you’re here for then I don’t want to be with you.

Most single Black women feel like they don’t want to settle for less. Their standards are too high right now. They have to understand that successful Black men are kind of extinct. We’re important. It’s hard to find us so Black women have to bow down and let it be known that they gotta start working hard; they gotta start cooking and being down for they man more. They can’t just be running around with their head up in the air and passing all of us.

I have a brother that dates a White woman and he always be fucking with me about it saying, “Y’all gotta go through all that shit [but] my White woman is fine. She don’t give me no problems, she do whatever I say and y’all gotta do all that arguing and fighting and worry about all this other shit.”

My girl is Black and White. I guess the half White in her is where she still cooks and do all the shit that I say, so we make it. She just takes care of me and I like that. She don’t be begging and I don’t gotta buy her all this crazy ass shit. And she’s a smart girl too. She graduated from Columbia [University] and I like that about her so it’s cool. I’ve dated girls that will buy a $3,000 bag and don’t know how to pay it off on their credit cards. They walk around in these Louis Vuittons and red bottoms but they’re riding around in raggedy cars, so it’s just getting your priorities right.

White women treat they man like a king and Black women feel like they ain’t gotta do that shit. Black women need to stand by their man more. Don’t always put the pressure of if I’m fucking with you, you gotta buy me this and that. Black men are the ones that motherfuckers need [but] I think a lot of them need to step it up too. A Black man who gets a little bread will go make it rain in the club and be broke the next day or instead of him going to invest in a business he gonna go buy new jewelry or a new car and still live in the hood. Black peoples’ mentality is real fucked up in general [and] it’s affecting everything.

Black women need to be more genuine and be more 50/50 [but] It should be a fair exchange in a relationship period or eventually somebody is gonna feel like they’re getting fucked over whether it’s the woman or the man. I think that will help Black relationships out a lot. ⎯As Told To Starrene Rhett

Slim is one of my FAVORITE artists, and he is absolutely right!

Secondly, it's a two way street, like he says we both need to step it up!

With that said, women in the black community don't seek the right qualities in a man to get the end result they want. This in turn gives the men room or, rather, justification to treat the women the way they do.

If a woman's mantra is all about money, material things, and physical appearance then she will attract and be attracted to the type of man that has the same (fucked up) value system and in turn get the dysfunctional relationship that will quickly dissolve into a self-destructive one, for both parties.

Like TIP says, "unhappy with the riches because you're piss-poor morally/".
The money is the only thing mantra for many men is a method for dealing with staying on their toes financially and never being broke (i.e. Killer mike-I pledge allegiance to the grind II). For women, it's a facade, a veil over their shortcoming, inadequacies, and insecurities..... some valid, some not, but it does women more harm to have this mantra than it does for men to have it. And I think part of what Slim Thug said has to do with that.

 

[dHustla]

Furthermore, about the Slim Thug article, he spoke about black women's standards being unrealistic..... he hit the nail on the head!

Case in point, the tv show "What Chilli wants" (I know it's a tv show), but she is a successful woman, a gorgeous woman, very in shape, has her own self together in many aspect, but she's looking for a finished product when she's not a finished product herself!

She was even so shallow as to not consider someone because they had a minor stomach pudge. And petty enough to dismiss someone because they drink occasionally.

Black people, we have to get it together. We can't expect everyone to live by our (individual) standards, it's just not realistic!

Also, Slim thug said something about women not wanting to work and not wanting to contribute 50/50, ALSO HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, homie tryna build a house for his people!

Brothers, how many women do you know that won't cook for a man or it depends on "how she feels", or keep a messy house because "she don't feel like cleaning up right now"... I had/have to get on my sister about this. What man want a woman that don't keep a clean house, but if I say this then I'm the Asshole because her last man dumped her (not for that reason tho).
Not a day goes by that I don't do something constructive and conducive for my growth, even on Sunday. Pushups, situps, clean up 1 room at least, do the yard, wash truck, change oil, change spark plugs & wires, organize garage tools, SOMETHING! Then go to my sister's house and the kitchen look like a hurricane came through, dining room looks the same and she's on the sofa watching some bullshit that ain't gonna do shit for her. It's a wonder we grew up in the same house! Then I start cleaning up HER mess, and she won't even tell me where to put shit, not helping at all. Excuse the rant, y'all.

My point of all that is that many of our sisters aren't willing to do their part, carry their weight. Too many of them want a life of glamor and glory, yet they have no guts.

I know I'm not a finished product, so I know it's not practical for me to seek or ask for a finished product in a woman. But I do want a BLACK woman that has as much to offer me as I have to offer her.

 

[dHustla]

I suspected this would happen. I just want to say, my 2nd or 3rd post i believe i did say i am not bashing men. Nor do i believe that anything can really be done at this point. I believe we are lost. And headed for extinction. The way i see it, is that the question was asked. And i answered with what i believed. The general idea is every man for himself. And get by the best way you can get by with yourself. By yourself. We've long passed the point of no return i think. There's no real hope for us as a people. In relationships, in our communities.

Your post to me is an example of what i mean. It's not something i blame anyone for. It's just something i've accepted as an "IS". Just stating what i see. I'm not throwing tomatos at black men. Far from it. I'm still uplifting and supporting those i can. Not that i think it will really DO anything. But it's really just a personal statement. Something to DO while i'm here. It's an example i follow.

You're right, being positive and uplifting isn't cool. It's work. It's the hard path. It's the way of a dying breed. Or a dead breed. Opinions will vary.

solutions?

It's more of an institutional thing. Especially in the black community. All my life all i've seen around me were absentee fathers and mothers doing it on their own. 3 of my best friends are products of this.

And no, i'm not saying this is true everywhere. And i know someone will pop around and say, "well where i'm from...it's not like this..." Or they'll say, "it's just the people you know..."

But no i don't think so. My view comes from a pretty wide spectrum i believe. I speak to alot of people and have observed a great many occurances. Spoken to alot of guys raised by single moms. Spoken to alot of single moms and daughters themselves.

It's always pretty much the same effect. These past few generations are growing up without fathers, without positive black male role models. And are learning the wrong things in life. And it's all the black man's fault.

It's a double edged sword too. I think so, just my opinion not stating this as fact. But women aren't accountable because men weren't accountable. Men were placed under extreme pressures and they couldn't survive. They couldn't make it out and the black family was shattered.

Something i did with my kids a few months ago, i gave them stacks of magazines and i had them watch TV and pay close attention and catalogue the tv shows and commercials, to see how many black men were shown to be fathers or even around.

The results were just insurmountable in favor of the idea that there's no black male presence. 1 thing that sticks out in my mind specifically was seeing the magazines, Family magazines and things like that. Where you'd find black mothers with children, white families together. The black men with their families? Almost NONE.


What message does this convey? On television i can count...maybe 2? Black family shows? Maybe 3? White family shows? Just off the top of your head? Shows with a mostly white cast? How many people are together?

Shows with a mostly black cast? How many people are together?

This recent rash of "where the good black man at?" Specials and CNBC and all that's going on? There's an issue somewhere. Crime dramas? Where's the father?
How are black people generally shown? Loving at home together mom and dad?

Black women if they say they need a man...What happens to them?

A little about me? This is my deceased husbands account. I'll tell anyone who'll listen. I NEED my husband. I MISS my husband. If i could turn back the hands of time and get my husband back i would. Because i need him. My balance is off. My everything that HELPED make me ME.

I need my black man. My point of view purely comes from the idea of what my sons are being shown. What my husband has been shown. All the male friends i discuss how they feel. What they feel like. There's a few black men here who are saying the same thing.

I've seen alot of things coming up to make me have these ideas. I've seen women berate their kids fathers, especially in front of boy children. I don't know what to do to change this. I just know that i keep MY sons in the knowledge they are loved and wanted by ME. If no one else.

I just do not believe this. As the commander and chief of our family and our communities then his responsibility is first and formost. If women are support, what is a man to do when that support is breached, compromised, or corrupted? Who picked that support system? If a weak support system was chosen then who's responsibility is it?

I disagree. As a man than it's his responsibility to teach and show those who do not know.

Understand that viewpoint. Mine is that MEN should get us on the path to that same place.

You keep turning it around on Men.... All of it is on men?

C'mon now baby. SOLUTIONS. SOLUTIONS.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I see alot of sister bashing going on. Maybe not alot but some. My point here is illustrated greatly in my eyes. A woman says, "She wants a man to be a man and take responsibility for himself, his family, his community." And the men turn immediately and say, "well what about you?"

The woman is not the genesis. Man is. Man is the match, the woman is the flashpoint. Without the man there to ignite the spark of life there will be none. The men have to move first. It's always been that way since before our conquering by the caucasians. The males of our species are the ones who take the lead and charge to the fore. All the griping i've heard from men about whoa is me, nobody loves me everybody hates me, i'm going to go eat worms...ALL because women don't do...and don't do...and don't do.

I'm talking about the man who goes and does despite what a woman does. Because when he DOES, a good woman will find it in him and he'll see it in her. And she will make his load a little lighter, she'll be a great helpmate to him. And that's how nature intended for this union to be.

I don't believe that this is what's going to happen, ever again. The way of men and women coming together to make a family strong are done. So many things contribute. So many of us without stable families to come from. Proper examples to see, role models, no heroes. No black independence. No black love. No awareness. Black men are weakened by the western caucasian mentality fueled by greed and self interest. And it's weakened the entire pyramid. Black women are spiritually confused because they've been forced to act in ways that are unnatural.

Black women now are required to make sacrifices of what makes them women in order to raise families because there is no MAN around to take the lead. Homemakers have been minimized. And it's not because of anything really black people has done it's the way this system is just designed. 2 parent incomes are vital. This takes away from creating the home, and the BALANCE needed in the family structure.

And what do black women have to contend with as well? On top of the society that mocks and whores her, she has to contend with the black male who hates and demeans her because she's not giving him what he feels he deserves without earning it.

Ain't that about a bowl of cherry pits?

solutions?


You keep turning it around on Men.... All of it is on men?

C'mon now baby. SOLUTIONS. SOLUTIONS.

There are none. The way that you seem to be thinking to me only contributes to the dissolution of the people. More ingrainment into caucasian mindsets. Which has seemed to work wonderfully for us so far right?*sarcasm* There is no solution. We can't fix what's happened by any type of conventional terms. My husband always believed that the only way to turn this whole thing around was to burn it all down and start over fresh.

I keep saying, you highlit and bolded what i said. Why it's on the men. "You" males...want to be the big cheese the top dog, you want to be respected and you want to be treated as kings but do nothing to earn it.

You don't even know who you are. You haven't discovered yourselves(All you's and references to you are not to Dhustla, they are a generic cross faction YOU of black males) But want to be put in charge of the family. You can't govern yourselves but want to govern a family. You want women, who are what you are NOT yourselves. To compensate for your own lacking.

I've always believed and said that woman cannot raise a man to be a man but only a grown boy. Because it's just not in our NATURE to do so. We're not designed to do so. We're not fundamentally...universally SUPPOSED to do that. It's not in US to do that. Women have failed for the past few generations here to raise boys into men. And why? Where were the fathers? Where are the black men?

 

[dHustla]

I see alot of sister bashing going on. Maybe not alot but some. My point here is illustrated greatly in my eyes. A woman says, "She wants a man to be a man and take responsibility for himself, his family, his community." And the men turn immediately and say, "well what about you?"

The woman is not the genesis. Man is. Man is the match, the woman is the flashpoint. Without the man there to ignite the spark of life there will be none. The men have to move first. It's always been that way since before our conquering by the caucasians. The males of our species are the ones who take the lead and charge to the fore. All the griping i've heard from men about whoa is me, nobody loves me everybody hates me, i'm going to go eat worms...ALL because women don't do...and don't do...and don't do.

I'm talking about the man who goes and does despite what a woman does.

What about the men that DO DESPITE, yet are still undermined IN SPITE

Because when he DOES, a good woman will find it in him and he'll see it in her. And she will make his load a little lighter, she'll be a great helpmate to him. And that's how nature intended for this union to be.

There are some... many cases where the man that does despite isn't found by a helpmate, he is found by a hindrance. A hindrance that makes his load heavier. I'm not bashing, I'm just saying... it takes a joint effort. Positive reinforcement is the best solution.

I don't believe that this is what's going to happen, ever again. The way of men and women coming together to make a family strong are done. So many things contribute. So many of us without stable families to come from. Proper examples to see, role models, no heroes. No black independence. No black love. No awareness. Black men are weakened by the western caucasian mentality fueled by greed and self interest. And it's weakened the entire pyramid. Black women are spiritually confused because they've been forced to act in ways that are unnatural.

Black women now are required to make sacrifices of what makes them women in order to raise families because there is no MAN around to take the lead.

Agreed.

Homemakers have been minimized. And it's not because of anything really black people has done it's the way this system is just designed. 2 parent incomes are vital. This takes away from creating the home, and the BALANCE needed in the family structure.

Agreed.

And what do black women have to contend with as well? On top of the society that mocks and whores her, she has to contend with the black male who hates and demeans her because she's not giving him what he feels he deserves without earning it.

why shouldn't she earn it?

Isn't that how the world works? You get what you earn, not what you feel you deserve.

Ain't that about a bowl of cherry pits?


There are none. The way that you seem to be thinking to me only contributes to the dissolution of the people. More ingrainment into caucasian mindsets. Which has seemed to work wonderfully for us so far right?*sarcasm* There is no solution. We can't fix what's happened by any type of conventional terms. My husband always believed that the only way to turn this whole thing around was to burn it all down and start over fresh.

I keep saying, you highlit and bolded what i said. Why it's on the men. "You" males...want to be the big cheese the top dog, you want to be respected and you want to be treated as kings but do nothing to earn it.

You don't even know who you are. You haven't discovered yourselves(All you's and references to you are not to Dhustla, they are a generic cross faction YOU of black males) But want to be put in charge of the family. You can't govern yourselves but want to govern a family. You want women, who are what you are NOT yourselves. To compensate for your own lacking.

I've always believed and said that woman cannot raise a man to be a man but only a grown boy. Because it's just not in our NATURE to do so. We're not designed to do so. We're not fundamentally...universally SUPPOSED to do that. It's not in US to do that. Women have failed for the past few generations here to raise boys into men. And why? Where were the fathers? Where are the black men?

see next post

 

[dHustla]

There are none. The way that you seem to be thinking to me only contributes to the dissolution of the people. More ingrainment into caucasian mindsets. Which has seemed to work wonderfully for us so far right?*sarcasm* There is no solution. We can't fix what's happened by any type of conventional terms. My husband always believed that the only way to turn this whole thing around was to burn it all down and start over fresh.

I keep saying, you highlit and bolded what i said. Why it's on the men. "You" males...want to be the big cheese the top dog, you want to be respected and you want to be treated as kings but do nothing to earn it.

Baby, I do plenty. And by GOD's standards it still may not be enough, evidenced by my being a member of this board, but I get so little in return.

It baffles me why some of my friends get showered with so much only to give the people that care for them their ass to kiss.

For me the problem is deeper than just finding a mate, it's reflected in how I'm treated by my sister, my mother, aunts, etc. And this thread is the result of me looking at my life objectively and really not understanding why. Why I got shitted on. Then I'm forced to look at each individual and examine what shaped them, what experiences tolled on their development. Then I'm faced with the fact that someone dropped the ball before them, and before them, and before them.

If anyone is to blame, sweetie, everyone is to blame!

You don't even know who you are. You haven't discovered yourselves(All you's and references to you are not to Dhustla, they are a generic cross faction YOU of black males) But want to be put in charge of the family. You can't govern yourselves but want to govern a family. You want [wo]men, who are what you are NOT yourselves. To compensate for your own lacking.

Is this not what YOU want as well?

I've always believed and said that woman cannot raise a man to be a man but only a grown boy. Because it's just not in our NATURE to do so. We're not designed to do so. We're not fundamentally...universally SUPPOSED to do that. It's not in US to do that. Women have failed for the past few generations here to raise boys into men. And why? Where were the fathers? Where are the black men?

Agreed.

Again, I'm inheriting this situation. Help me resolve it.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

What about the men that DO DESPITE, yet are still undermined IN SPITE

Depends on what you mean directly. I perosnally don't believe you can live life without adversity. Only through adversity do you grow and learn. That's how i'm taking what you asked here.

There are some... many cases where the man that does despite isn't found by a helpmate, he is found by a hindrance. A hindrance that makes his load heavier. I'm not bashing, I'm just saying... it takes a joint effort. Positive reinforcement is the best solution.

I'm not a christian or a bible thumper but something i find universally true and it's not a christian saying even, but 1 that has rung true in just about every pre caucasian culture is "Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.
--Proverbs 18:22"

That's to say that you make your choice. You(Black men) CHOOSE who you want and you CHOOSE your lifemate. I am not assigned to you. I am not chosen FOR you. You chose me. I chose you. I can't choose you and you not choose me and US be together. Doesn't work that way. I cannot HINDER what YOU(blackmen) do not ALLOW me to hinder. I can't do ANYTHING TO YOU. That YOU don't ALLOW me to do. I wish males would stop running around acting like women are these all powerful beings that take your WILL away. We're not. Men make their own decisions and either bend the world to their will, flow with the ebb, or get broken by the will of others. But to ME? Personally? A MAN doesn't allow others to effect his will. He doesn't make a bad choice for a WIFE. So therefore he is responsible for his OWN ACTIONS. Don't blame me for what you allowed me to do to you.

why shouldn't she earn it?

Isn't that how the world works? You get what you earn, not what you feel you deserve.

My above response sort of touches on this. I think. About her earning it. The way i see it? I earned my husband. He earned the right to be my husband and he earned the right for me to bear him his children. He earned that right because of who he was as a man and the things he did as a man before he met me. The things that made him...well HIM. He did all of that. He was a MAN, when i met him. Not a boy, not a male running around trying to figure it out. He was ready and earned my respect and devotion before he even met me.

HE CHOSE ME. Because of who I AM. He made the decision to be with me and to marry me and have children with me...not on a whim. Not even by emotion. But because of who i am. He made the decision process a methodical 1. It wasn't something fly by night. It wasn't something that just popped into his head and then POOF he decided 1 day... We didn't lay together and OOPS just pop up with a kid.

He was responsible for his decision making process. IN the process. He took responsibility for his life. HIS LIFE.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

Baby, I do plenty. And by GOD's standards it still may not be enough, evidenced by my being a member of this board, but I get so little in return.

And since you spoke personally directly about yourself. I'll ask this personally to you. About you.

but I get so little in return.

Who's fault is that?

It baffles me why some of my friends get showered with so much only to give the people that care for them their ass to kiss.

I'm not baffled. It's just the state of the way people have turned out to be. It's a evolution of things.

For me the problem is deeper than just finding a mate, it's reflected in how I'm treated by my sister, my mother, aunts, etc. And this thread is the result of me looking at my life objectively and really not understanding why.

Ah....As a mother of young black males and a wife of a black man, i try to be KEENLY aware of how i effect them. And how i make them feel. I had this revelation simply by reading about things precaucasian and learning how communities worked pre caucasian. And i found a husband who knew the same.

Why I got shitted on. Then I'm forced to look at each individual and examine what shaped them, what experiences tolled on their development. Then I'm faced with the fact that someone dropped the ball before them, and before them, and before them.

If anyone is to blame, sweetie, everyone is to blame!

Their fathers and their fathers and theirs. Somewhere along that line some guy dropped the ball. OR...was taken out of the equation completely through an outside force. So....now what? My husband had this saying about moving on, "climb down off that cross build and bridge and get over it. We got work to do." That was his saying with most everything. No time for this. We got work to do. He'd tell me all the time. When i was feeling depressed about some catastrophic event in our lives. He'd get my attention and say, Hey...Hey...We got work to do. When we're done we can cry about it later. But for now? We got work to do. Something i've always admired about him. Not saying this to you, just saying my VIEW of how things should be done. Our chlidren need us. Our communiites are in perile. Us as a people are in perile. Lets figure out the source of the problem. Fix it. We got work to do.

Is this not what YOU want as well?

No i don't. And this is part of the problem. I'll say black women don't. Unless you were saying You as in ME personally? But for now i'll take it as black women in general. I don't believe black women DO want it this way. I believe the PROBLEM. The just...DEEP problem with black women is that we're being FORCED into something that is UNNATURAL for us to do.

Agreed.

Again, I'm inheriting this situation. Help me resolve it.

You resolve it? I don't know what to say. All i can EVER do is say what my husband did.

 

[dHustla]

Depends on what you mean directly. I perosnally don't believe you can live life without adversity. Only through adversity do you grow and learn. That's how i'm taking what you asked here.



I'm not a christian or a bible thumper but something i find universally true and it's not a christian saying even, but 1 that has rung true in just about every pre caucasian culture is "Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.
--Proverbs 18:22"

That's to say that you make your choice. You(Black men) CHOOSE who you want and you CHOOSE your lifemate. I am not assigned to you. I am not chosen FOR you. You chose me. I chose you. I can't choose you and you not choose me and US be together. Doesn't work that way. I cannot HINDER what YOU(blackmen) do not ALLOW me to hinder. I can't do ANYTHING TO YOU. That YOU don't ALLOW me to do. I wish males would stop running around acting like women are these all powerful beings that take your WILL away. We're not. Men make their own decisions and either bend the world to their will, flow with the ebb, or get broken by the will of others. But to ME? Personally? A MAN doesn't allow others to effect his will. He doesn't make a bad choice for a WIFE. So therefore he is responsible for his OWN ACTIONS. Don't blame me for what you allowed me to do to you.

I didn't choose my mother, my sister, my aunts, cousins, etc.
I have no control over people treating me as if I'm the one that didn't get the abortion.

My above response sort of touches on this. I think. About her earning it. The way i see it? I earned my husband. He earned the right to be my husband and he earned the right for me to bear him his children. He earned that right because of who he was as a man and the things he did as a man before he met me. The things that made him...well HIM. He did all of that. He was a MAN, when i met him. Not a boy, not a male running around trying to figure it out. He was ready and earned my respect and devotion before he even met me.

What about those that never got a chance to earn respect, those that have never known devotion in order to understand how and what to look for in, not only a mate, but in people period.

HE CHOSE ME. Because of who I AM. He made the decision to be with me and to marry me and have children with me...not on a whim. Not even by emotion. But because of who i am. He made the decision process a methodical 1. It wasn't something fly by night. It wasn't something that just popped into his head and then POOF he decided 1 day... We didn't lay together and OOPS just pop up with a kid.

He was responsible for his decision making process. IN the process. He took responsibility for his life. HIS LIFE.

Let me say this.....

The main reason for this thread is that I saw what I didn't have, what I was denied and recently saw what I would like to have. Everything I was denied was/is by no fault of my own. What I don't have is something to hold on to. Someone that means something to me. I recently told a sibling that "If y'all never saw me again, y'all would be aiight." I meant it. That us both think about what would evoke those thoughts and I explained that I've never felt like I mattered. I've always felt like an inconvenience, a burden, and with that seed being planted in me I developed the same feelings, or lack of feelings, toward everyone else. No one really mattered, because no-one really cares. I was taught that my worth was in what I did or what I made($). So as a man, that's all I value... hustling, working, anything that generates $ or gets the job done, whatever it may be.

I wasn't important to anyone, only what I was able to do or produce was important, and I still feel that way for the most part.

I've never known unconditional love. Devotion? What's devotion? Being considerate? How you do that? And why?


It may sound preposterous, but like a few have called me "socially retarded" recently, I'll admit to it. I'm learning.

But in order to learn new, positive and progressive behavior and values... I had/have to cut off the toxic relationships that do more harm than good. Remove myself from those that aren't conducive to my growth.

I feel a little guilty, but the good outweighs the bad feeling of guilt already.

I know it's harsh, but I've seen the best that 'they' have to offer and .............I'm straight on that

 

[SoopamanLuva]

I see alot of sister bashing going on. Maybe not alot but some. My point here is illustrated greatly in my eyes. A woman says, "She wants a man to be a man and take responsibility for himself, his family, his community." And the men turn immediately and say, "well what about you?"

The woman is not the genesis. Man is. Man is the match, the woman is the flashpoint. Without the man there to ignite the spark of life there will be none. The men have to move first. It's always been that way since before our conquering by the caucasians. The males of our species are the ones who take the lead and charge to the fore. All the griping i've heard from men about whoa is me, nobody loves me everybody hates me, i'm going to go eat worms...ALL because women don't do...and don't do...and don't do.

I'm talking about the man who goes and does despite what a woman does. Because when he DOES, a good woman will find it in him and he'll see it in her. And she will make his load a little lighter, she'll be a great helpmate to him. And that's how nature intended for this union to be.

I don't believe that this is what's going to happen, ever again. The way of men and women coming together to make a family strong are done. So many things contribute. So many of us without stable families to come from. Proper examples to see, role models, no heroes. No black independence. No black love. No awareness. Black men are weakened by the western caucasian mentality fueled by greed and self interest. And it's weakened the entire pyramid. Black women are spiritually confused because they've been forced to act in ways that are unnatural.

Black women now are required to make sacrifices of what makes them women in order to raise families because there is no MAN around to take the lead. Homemakers have been minimized. And it's not because of anything really black people has done it's the way this system is just designed. 2 parent incomes are vital. This takes away from creating the home, and the BALANCE needed in the family structure.

And what do black women have to contend with as well? On top of the society that mocks and whores her, she has to contend with the black male who hates and demeans her because she's not giving him what he feels he deserves without earning it.

Ain't that about a bowl of cherry pits?


There are none. The way that you seem to be thinking to me only contributes to the dissolution of the people. More ingrainment into caucasian mindsets. Which has seemed to work wonderfully for us so far right?*sarcasm* There is no solution. We can't fix what's happened by any type of conventional terms. My husband always believed that the only way to turn this whole thing around was to burn it all down and start over fresh.

I keep saying, you highlit and bolded what i said. Why it's on the men. "You" males...want to be the big cheese the top dog, you want to be respected and you want to be treated as kings but do nothing to earn it.

You don't even know who you are. You haven't discovered yourselves(All you's and references to you are not to Dhustla, they are a generic cross faction YOU of black males) But want to be put in charge of the family. You can't govern yourselves but want to govern a family. You want women, who are what you are NOT yourselves. To compensate for your own lacking.

I've always believed and said that woman cannot raise a man to be a man but only a grown boy. Because it's just not in our NATURE to do so. We're not designed to do so. We're not fundamentally...universally SUPPOSED to do that. It's not in US to do that. Women have failed for the past few generations here to raise boys into men. And why? Where were the fathers? Where are the black men?

I respect and appreciate your point of view. It is refreshing to hear a sister so passionate about her people and her cause and a lot of what you are saying is true. Men have dropped the ball in some instances.There is no women bashing meant here, But women have helped with that.

In this society, Men are told they are not needed and women have bought into it.
Take for instance welfare. What is the Number1 criteria for that? A man cannot be present in the home. These women know that if they get pregnant, they will be taken care of in some fashion.

Ex. My friend's BM was living with him. He was taking care of everything. She didn't have to work but she wanted states assistance.(why she wanted assistance while her man was holding it down, i have not a clue) He was getting ready to ask her to marry him and everything. Then one day he came home from work, all her stuff was gone. She moved out. She had applied for assistance while living with him and moved out so she could qualify. She got assistance and as a result, the state filed CS on him. They set his visitation at every other weekend and 8 weeks in the summer. He got laid off last year and got behind. she had him court on the brink of jail time because she said she could make it without the CS(even though she was living with him and didn't have to work before this started)He had $11000 in unemployment. He pulled it out and gave her $7000 of it. During all of this she is messing him over on his visitation. Not bringing her over when she is supposed to, being unavailable when its time to pick her up. The judge didn't do anything about it. He just let her continue to act this way. Now she decided to move to Arizona. She's taking his kid and moving 4 states away, he cant do anything to stop it. Now his visitation is 8 weeks in the summer and every other christmas(if she feels like it)

Now, He messed up and made the mistake of getting his girl pregnant when he wasn't married. Thats his fault, no doubt. But he provided for both of them. He owned up to his mistake and was going to do right by both him and his daughter....She wasn't having it. And the person that will suffer most is his child. If that isn't being a man, i don't know what is.

I say all this to say that men are human and make mistakes. But when the man is man enough to own up to it and correct it, the woman has to meet us half way. Contrary to what you believe, we CANT do it all ourselves. We have breaking points just the same as women.

You say there are no solutions. I say why have you given up hope? To say that nobody can fix it and there are no solutions is saying that YOU are part of the problem and i can tell from what you wrote that you are not. No matter how jaded your view of the situation has become, don't give up hope. There is always hope and without it, there is nothing. One solution I can offer is what you are doing everyday and what i'm doing everyday, Raising Upstanding,strong, black children to release into this society so the don't become part of the problem. And can help some wayward brothers and sisters along the way.

What i've noticed is back in the 60's and before, black people all had a common ideal that they could gather around. That was freedom, civil rights etc. We don't have an issue like that, that encompasses ALL of us anymore so there is no more"Takes a village" sentiment. But with one event that could change overnight. (I'm thinking something that is similar to what is going on in Arizona towards the mexicans). That one event could be a wake up call to the black community to get back on the ball.

Lastly, keep doing what your doing and when your efforts bear fruit, hopefully your outlook will change. Our Generation didn't create the problem, we inherited it. BUt we Damn sure could be the generation to get us back on track.

 

[thahoodsprodigy]

I've read most of this thread and I can see valid points in both DHustla's and Legacy_Infinity's posts.
As a young black man, who grew up with "half" a father (I'll explain), I'd just like to say my situation and see what you think about it.
I'm a 25 year old pre-med student.
I grew up with both parents...at least for awhile.
Up until the age of about 15, which I'd say were my "formative" years, I was under the illusion that my father was the ideal "man".
We'd go on family vacations, he'd go to work and come home and help with my homework, taught me how to dress, take my brother and I out on father-son "excursions"...pretty much the quintessential dad.
Somewhere after that, my mother and his relationship soured.
Don't know how, don't really know why, but my father turned to drugs. Lost his job. Got into constant spats with my mother.
Now, by the time that things REALLY deteriorated, I had moved out and was on my first year of college.

In terms of Legacy_Infinity's posts, I grew up under the belief that everything my dad was doing was RIGHT. When faced with the truth of the situation, I could have been like probably countless others before me and taken the route of not giving a fuck and being "hood" and destructive. I joined a "gang" for a while in Brooklyn where I was attending HS and hung out with an unsavory crowd for a bit. However I DID decide to change my mind about what kind of man I was going to be (based on my father's example of self-destruction) and got my head on straight. Graduated HS, went to college for a bit, got a job (still educate myself..THANKS BGOL FOR SOME OF THOSE EDUCATION POSTS ), and now I take care of my mother and brother, and recently started going back to school. In that respect, I can agree with the fact that men need to CHOOSE to be men (even with prior negative examples) and stop the cycle of self destruction of our race.

FAST FORWARD ABOUT 5 YEARS.

I've been with a woman for the last 6 years...been in LOVE.
Gave her the world and then some. Supported her through her "fights" with her family, a whole year of her studying abroad, death of mother AND aunt, helped two of her sisters when they were pregnant and countless other things.
I even asked her to marry me once, but I got shot down (I can respect the reason, even if I dont agree with it).
Recently, I've been going through a bit of a down slide. Bills are coming in left and right, the center I work at is closing down around October, and I've been a bit unapproachable.
She's proposed NOW of all times, to take a "break".
Now most guys would be like ""Fuck this bitch, I'm gonna go out and fuck as much as I can."
In regards to the actual point that DHustla was making, I can DEFINITELY agree with the fact that women can and DEFINITELY will impact the way a man looks at life in general...how is it that in my greatest time of need...a woman that I've devoted time and energies to in such amounts, can leave me?
It messes with your head a little bit.
I know I'm supposed to treat this as an isolated incident, but I could see how a lesser man would automatically be all about money and say, "Fuck these hoes". I've even thought about it myself, but have decided that's just not the kind of person that I am OR want to be.

Just to kinda conclude it all, I think both of you have points....very valid ones in fact.
Its just a matter of execution and then, personal morals.
THATS what we seem to be lacking.

 

[melonpecan]

There is too much over here that I need to read. Now that I have time I guess I can later.


I don't know if this pertains or not but I see a lot about women and their materilistic ways. However it's spelled, my keyboard is about to die.

I'm on my way to work and I hear this insipid rap song bout some pretty boy swagger or something like that. Sounded mad gay in the worst of ways. Anyway, immediately after this I hear the local dj wanda, (dhustla you might have heard this one), and another radio employee do their own version - big girl swagger and bougie girl swagger. Bougie girl can't cook, but the big girl can...bougie girl took big girls dude cause she the cute one but the big girl like her coach bags and can 'keep' a man cause she can cook and clean.


I guess what I'm trying to get at is does this mentality come from the men and is projected onto the women? Does this come from lack of male interaction? or are these just the thoughts of random ghetto women? Could a positive man prevent this type of thinking?

 

[dHustla]

There is too much over here that I need to read. Now that I have time I guess I can later.


I don't know if this pertains or not but I see a lot about women and their materilistic ways. However it's spelled, my keyboard is about to die.

I'm on my way to work and I hear this insipid rap song bout some pretty boy swagger or something like that. Sounded mad gay in the worst of ways. Anyway, immediately after this I hear the local dj wanda, (dhustla you might have heard this one), and another radio employee do their own version - big girl swagger and bougie girl swagger. Bougie girl can't cook, but the big girl can...bougie girl took big girls dude cause she the cute one but the big girl like her coach bags and can 'keep' a man cause she can cook and clean.


I guess what I'm trying to get at is does this mentality come from the men and is projected onto the women? Does this come from lack of male interaction? or are these just the thoughts of random ghetto women? Could a positive man prevent this type of thinking?

Melon, nawl, I ain't heard that one. I don't fuck w/ frank & wanda at all.

To answer your question, it has to do with.....

Didn't know anything about Slim Thug's comments. I googled it and came up with this...

http://www.vibe.com/posts/slim-thug-black-women-need-stand-their-man-more


Slim is one of my FAVORITE artists, and he is absolutely right!

Secondly, it's a two way street, like he says we both need to step it up!

With that said, women in the black community don't seek the right qualities in a man to get the end result they want. This in turn gives the men room or, rather, justification to treat the women the way they do.

If a woman's mantra is all about money, material things, and physical appearance then she will attract and be attracted to the type of man that has the same (fucked up) value system and in turn get the dysfunctional relationship that will quickly dissolve into a self-destructive one, for both parties.

Like TIP says, "unhappy with the riches because you're piss-poor morally/".
The money is the only thing mantra for many men is a method for dealing with staying on their toes financially and never being broke (i.e. Killer mike-I pledge allegiance to the grind II). For women, it's a facade, a veil over their shortcoming, inadequacies, and insecurities..... some valid, some not, but it does women more harm to have this mantra than it does for men to have it. And I think part of what Slim Thug said has to do with that.

Furthermore, about the Slim Thug article, he spoke about black women's standards being unrealistic..... he hit the nail on the head!

Case in point, the tv show "What Chilli wants" (I know it's a tv show), but she is a successful woman, a gorgeous woman, very in shape, has her own self together in many aspect, but she's looking for a finished product when she's not a finished product herself!

She was even so shallow as to not consider someone because they had a minor stomach pudge. And petty enough to dismiss someone because they drink occasionally.

Black people, we have to get it together. We can't expect everyone to live by our (individual) standards, it's just not realistic!

Also, Slim thug said something about women not wanting to work and not wanting to contribute 50/50, ALSO HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, homie tryna build a house for his people!

Brothers, how many women do you know that won't cook for a man or it depends on "how she feels", or keep a messy house because "she don't feel like cleaning up right now"... I had/have to get on my sister about this. What man want a woman that don't keep a clean house, but if I say this then I'm the Asshole because her last man dumped her (not for that reason tho).
Not a day goes by that I don't do something constructive and conducive for my growth, even on Sunday. Pushups, situps, clean up 1 room at least, do the yard, wash truck, change oil, change spark plugs & wires, organize garage tools, SOMETHING! Then go to my sister's house and the kitchen look like a hurricane came through, dining room looks the same and she's on the sofa watching some bullshit that ain't gonna do shit for her. It's a wonder we grew up in the same house! Then I start cleaning up HER mess, and she won't even tell me where to put shit, not helping at all. Excuse the rant, y'all.

My point of all that is that many of our sisters aren't willing to do their part, carry their weight. Too many of them want a life of glamor and glory, yet they have no guts.

I know I'm not a finished product, so I know it's not practical for me to seek or ask for a finished product in a woman. But I do want a BLACK woman that has as much to offer me as I have to offer her.

there it is

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I didn't choose my mother, my sister, my aunts, cousins, etc.
I have no control over people treating me as if I'm the one that didn't get the abortion.

None of us do. But we make the best of it as life is givin to us to do. We're supposed to make something positive of ourselves and hopefully along the way we inflict positivity on others as well. How i believe anyway.

What about those that never got a chance to earn respect, those that have never known devotion in order to understand how and what to look for in, not only a mate, but in people period.

You're not a dead man writing me are you? As long as you breathe you have the opportunity to change yourself and become different, better, worse, whatever. You have the choice. How long do you let what happened or those who have happened to you affect your actions? Your feelings?

But in order to learn new, positive and progressive behavior and values... I had/have to cut off the toxic relationships that do more harm than good. Remove myself from those that aren't conducive to my growth.

Very true. Something we all must do.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I respect and appreciate your point of view. It is refreshing to hear a sister so passionate about her people and her cause and a lot of what you are saying is true. Men have dropped the ball in some instances.There is no women bashing meant here, But women have helped with that.

In this society, Men are told they are not needed and women have bought into it.

So where are they? Where are the men? Where WERE they? I know men are needed. I believe they are. The problem is they don't believe they are, and they've succumbed to the belief that they are. Those who have the fighting chance to BE needed? Don't prove themselves to do so.

Take for instance welfare. What is the Number1 criteria for that? A man cannot be present in the home. These women know that if they get pregnant, they will be taken care of in some fashion.

Why was it made this way? Lets be realistic and look at this broadview.

Ex. My friend's BM was living with him. He was taking care of everything. She didn't have to work but she wanted states assistance.(why she wanted assistance while her man was holding it down, i have not a clue) He was getting ready to ask her to marry him and everything. Then one day he came home from work, all her stuff was gone. She moved out. She had applied for assistance while living with him and moved out so she could qualify. She got assistance and as a result, the state filed CS on him. They set his visitation at every other weekend and 8 weeks in the summer. He got laid off last year and got behind. she had him court on the brink of jail time because she said she could make it without the CS(even though she was living with him and didn't have to work before this started)He had $11000 in unemployment. He pulled it out and gave her $7000 of it. During all of this she is messing him over on his visitation. Not bringing her over when she is supposed to, being unavailable when its time to pick her up. The judge didn't do anything about it. He just let her continue to act this way. Now she decided to move to Arizona. She's taking his kid and moving 4 states away, he cant do anything to stop it. Now his visitation is 8 weeks in the summer and every other christmas(if she feels like it)

Sucks for the kid. Really and truly. Your friend chose badly.

Now, He messed up and made the mistake of getting his girl pregnant when he wasn't married. Thats his fault, no doubt. But he provided for both of them. He owned up to his mistake and was going to do right by both him and his daughter....She wasn't having it. And the person that will suffer most is his child. If that isn't being a man, i don't know what is.

Bolded part is ALL. All he needs to say and be done with. HE messed up and had a child with a woman he wasn't married too, and a woman who couldn't be trusted. He made the mistake. And now...as many MANY of us do...he has to suffer the consequences of his actions. Like any MAN does. You just have to suffer what you have wrought. And make the best of what you can. Bide your time and deal with it as it comes. Until he can achieve financial support and means enough to take care of his daughter and get custody himself. There's nothing he can do until the child is of age to make her own choice of where to live. I'm sorry it happened that way. Really am. That sucks. But this is the price he has to pay and it's the price his child has to pay for his ill concieved laying with this female.

I say all this to say that men are human and make mistakes. But when the man is man enough to own up to it and correct it, the woman has to meet us half way. Contrary to what you believe, we CANT do it all ourselves. We have breaking points just the same as women.

No she doesn't. She doesn't HAVE too. This isn't pitty pat and it's not a game of Play Fair. Women don't play fair. They don't abide by the same rules that males do. Women don't have honor in the way that males concieve of it. And i believe this is in large part to a big problem in our communities. I've worked with women my whole life. I know, how dirty sneaky conniving and treacherous they can be. I've seen it first hand. My thing is many of you guys see the same thing and you hear the same thing but you let ego and your biological processes to mate get in the way. Odds are she didn't have a MAN in her life to teach her properly. To me that should be criteria to be with a woman let alone have a CHILD with her.

Males often go off half cocked and when it hits the fan they want someone to feel their pain and understand what they brought on themselves. I don't feel this way. Because you brought it on yourself. Something i'm super big on is accountability. Being accountable and responsible for the actions you take and then when you fall into a world of trouble the only thing left for you to do is pick YOURSELF up and dust YOURSELF off. And figure out what you did wrong so you don't do it again. And then...continue with life. You can either let what happened keep you down and beat you down. Or you can be smarter about the next situation that comes along. Once again. a CHOICE.

You say there are no solutions. I say why have you given up hope? To say that nobody can fix it and there are no solutions is saying that YOU are part of the problem and i can tell from what you wrote that you are not. No matter how jaded your view of the situation has become, don't give up hope. There is always hope and without it, there is nothing. One solution I can offer is what you are doing everyday and what i'm doing everyday, Raising Upstanding,strong, black children to release into this society so the don't become part of the problem. And can help some wayward brothers and sisters along the way.

There's a solution. Just not a viable 1. Realistic solutions available? None. Imagined solutions? Whims of fancy? A million. My sons will be raised with their fathers values and knowledge. In hope and belief that they will continue in what he set out to do. Realistically? They may, they may not. I'm not a dreamer, that was my husband. It was a nice and pretty dream. A dream i love. But i'm much more the realist. I know what's really going to happen. I know the the few drops of water to make a swimming pool aren't enough to change the oceans. That's what this is really. People who believe in doing right and trying to make the world a better place are those drops in the swimming pool. Compared to the oceans of the world.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

I've read most of this thread and I can see valid points in both DHustla's and Legacy_Infinity's posts.
As a young black man, who grew up with "half" a father (I'll explain), I'd just like to say my situation and see what you think about it.
I'm a 25 year old pre-med student.
I grew up with both parents...at least for awhile.
Up until the age of about 15, which I'd say were my "formative" years, I was under the illusion that my father was the ideal "man".
We'd go on family vacations, he'd go to work and come home and help with my homework, taught me how to dress, take my brother and I out on father-son "excursions"...pretty much the quintessential dad.
Somewhere after that, my mother and his relationship soured.
Don't know how, don't really know why, but my father turned to drugs. Lost his job. Got into constant spats with my mother.
Now, by the time that things REALLY deteriorated, I had moved out and was on my first year of college.

In terms of Legacy_Infinity's posts, I grew up under the belief that everything my dad was doing was RIGHT. When faced with the truth of the situation, I could have been like probably countless others before me and taken the route of not giving a fuck and being "hood" and destructive. I joined a "gang" for a while in Brooklyn where I was attending HS and hung out with an unsavory crowd for a bit. However I DID decide to change my mind about what kind of man I was going to be (based on my father's example of self-destruction) and got my head on straight. Graduated HS, went to college for a bit, got a job (still educate myself..THANKS BGOL FOR SOME OF THOSE EDUCATION POSTS ), and now I take care of my mother and brother, and recently started going back to school. In that respect, I can agree with the fact that men need to CHOOSE to be men (even with prior negative examples) and stop the cycle of self destruction of our race.

FAST FORWARD ABOUT 5 YEARS.

I've been with a woman for the last 6 years...been in LOVE.
Gave her the world and then some. Supported her through her "fights" with her family, a whole year of her studying abroad, death of mother AND aunt, helped two of her sisters when they were pregnant and countless other things.
I even asked her to marry me once, but I got shot down (I can respect the reason, even if I dont agree with it).
Recently, I've been going through a bit of a down slide. Bills are coming in left and right, the center I work at is closing down around October, and I've been a bit unapproachable.
She's proposed NOW of all times, to take a "break".
Now most guys would be like ""Fuck this bitch, I'm gonna go out and fuck as much as I can."
In regards to the actual point that DHustla was making, I can DEFINITELY agree with the fact that women can and DEFINITELY will impact the way a man looks at life in general...how is it that in my greatest time of need...a woman that I've devoted time and energies to in such amounts, can leave me?
It messes with your head a little bit.
I know I'm supposed to treat this as an isolated incident, but I could see how a lesser man would automatically be all about money and say, "Fuck these hoes". I've even thought about it myself, but have decided that's just not the kind of person that I am OR want to be.

Just to kinda conclude it all, I think both of you have points....very valid ones in fact.
Its just a matter of execution and then, personal morals.
THATS what we seem to be lacking.

The 1 thing i never understand about men is their outright surprise. You "saved" her. And when it came time to stand by you, she flaked. You're surprised she didn't have the strength to do it.

 

[WhenTheGoingGetsTtuff]

There is too much over here that I need to read. Now that I have time I guess I can later.


I don't know if this pertains or not but I see a lot about women and their materilistic ways. However it's spelled, my keyboard is about to die.

I'm on my way to work and I hear this insipid rap song bout some pretty boy swagger or something like that. Sounded mad gay in the worst of ways. Anyway, immediately after this I hear the local dj wanda, (dhustla you might have heard this one), and another radio employee do their own version - big girl swagger and bougie girl swagger. Bougie girl can't cook, but the big girl can...bougie girl took big girls dude cause she the cute one but the big girl like her coach bags and can 'keep' a man cause she can cook and clean.


I guess what I'm trying to get at is does this mentality come from the men and is projected onto the women? Does this come from lack of male interaction? or are these just the thoughts of random ghetto women? Could a positive man prevent this type of thinking?

It's a part of the problem i believe. A cross inside women that this society teaches, is teaching us 1 thing, and that 1 thing conflicts with our nature. I think the mentality comes from the competitive as well as esteem problems we share as a people.

 

[HALO2]

Nigga's are not, but black men are.