Answer this above, Blunt. So you can clearly be on the record.
Got a man here saying Magic Johnson was better than Micheal Jordan WHo agrees?
- Thread starter oxx727
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Answer this above, Blunt. So you can clearly be on the record.
For NYers, that's easy. NY Knicks with John Gianelli and ther starting center in 1972 or 1973 (I forget the year)
Re: Micheal Jordan
not at all.
earvin johnson said that the game had changed and that his heart wasn't into playing any longer.
your speculation on what could've/should've been is just your individual fantasy.
not at all.
earvin johnson said that the game had changed and that his heart wasn't into playing any longer.
your speculation on what could've/should've been is just your individual fantasy.
My Pistons did it in 2004 ...but what Im saying is that you can count on your hand how many times it has been done over the entire history of the game(before and after Jordan). That was my point....and the Bulls built a dynasty without one.
Micheal Jordan
i would offer the golden state warriors with rick barry and clifford ray (no diss to clifford ray).
but as i mentioned before, those are singular examples that could be used to refute the canon.
whereas the chicago bulls' first three consecutive NBA championships explodes it.
i would offer the golden state warriors with rick barry and clifford ray (no diss to clifford ray).
but as i mentioned before, those are singular examples that could be used to refute the canon.
whereas the chicago bulls' first three consecutive NBA championships explodes it.
Re: Micheal Jordan
Just from the sidelines, this is one of better, more plausible basketball debates and I am learning a lot from it.
I played basketball, watched it with my dad from the early 80's on but was STRICTLY a spectator. I should have been paying more attention.
Thank God for ESPN classics, YouTube, and BGOL. I am becoming wiser and forming more educated opinions and viewpoints from the information I glean from these "G.O.A.T" threads.
Just from the sidelines, this is one of better, more plausible basketball debates and I am learning a lot from it.
I played basketball, watched it with my dad from the early 80's on but was STRICTLY a spectator. I should have been paying more attention.
Thank God for ESPN classics, YouTube, and BGOL. I am becoming wiser and forming more educated opinions and viewpoints from the information I glean from these "G.O.A.T" threads.
Re: Micheal Jordan
WTF??? He didn't say that after the '90-'91 season. He was in peak form. He only said that after his ILL-fated (and silly) comeback attempt 4 years later (which only proved how desperate he was to keep playing).
What speculation?? The dude was FORCIBLY retired at his peak. There was no reason to believe he wouldn't have gone on to perform at a high level for many more years if not for his diagnosis.
What are you smoking???
WTF??? He didn't say that after the '90-'91 season. He was in peak form. He only said that after his ILL-fated (and silly) comeback attempt 4 years later (which only proved how desperate he was to keep playing).
What speculation?? The dude was FORCIBLY retired at his peak. There was no reason to believe he wouldn't have gone on to perform at a high level for many more years if not for his diagnosis.
What are you smoking???
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Another LOSER move. Calling your opponent a "troll." Very juvenile.
Magic, obviously. Jordan only began to achieve comparable dominance the year Magic retired, and as the league expanded. But he was still down five titles to one after '90-'91.
I said you resort to trolling...which you do. Calling a spade a spade is not juvenille.
The reality of the matter is that you are a sophist who argues for the sake of arguing and you often argue (in separate threads) both sides of the same argument.
You lost this argument when you didnt understand the first major point by Cranrab about Jordan being a transformative player who broke a major NBA paradigm.
You tried to diminish the very traits that you are using in this thread. However, your MO is obvious. You have done that with both Stockton and Nash. Your entire MO is to go on the contrary for the sole purpose of debate...which is fine.... but you should be slapped for accusing anyone of introducing irrelevant information to an argument when 50 percent of your posting is side-tracking a thread with irrelevant premises, arguments and irrelevant pics.
Re: Micheal Jordan
yeah, but against whom? Duckworth? Divac? David West? Johnson? Ostertag?
During his era there were only maybe 3 big men worth a fuck. Robinson, Hakeem and Patrick "Mr. Colin Powell can't read" Ewing.
Jordan is great. But I'd pick 2 players in front of him. Bill and Magic.
for the OP, no contest. michael jordan.
earvin johnson accomplished A LOT. A WHOLE LOT.
but michael jordan is the FIRST PLAYER IN BASKETBALL HISTORY to destroy a canon of basketball. not refute or repudiate it (like rick barry), but THOROUGHLY OBLITERATE a canon of modern basketball.
yeah, but against whom? Duckworth? Divac? David West? Johnson? Ostertag?
During his era there were only maybe 3 big men worth a fuck. Robinson, Hakeem and Patrick "Mr. Colin Powell can't read" Ewing.
Jordan is great. But I'd pick 2 players in front of him. Bill and Magic.
Re: Micheal Jordan
I know you dont like Snaq but are you excluding Shaq and also Mourning. Shaq was already a force before the Bulls started their 2nd repeat run.
I dont think the centers of the 80s ranked just infinitely better than the 90s. They were better but the 90s were not like now where you really dont have any centers... the 90s had several hell of fame centers..
I know you dont like Snaq but are you excluding Shaq and also Mourning. Shaq was already a force before the Bulls started their 2nd repeat run.
I dont think the centers of the 80s ranked just infinitely better than the 90s. They were better but the 90s were not like now where you really dont have any centers... the 90s had several hell of fame centers..
Re: Micheal Jordan
True, but he did play with Grant. Who was taller than 6'7" Wes Unseld who went to back to back finals with the Bullets and won a tittle. Wes played center at 6'7" against 6'11" Jack Sickma.
True, but he did play with Grant. Who was taller than 6'7" Wes Unseld who went to back to back finals with the Bullets and won a tittle. Wes played center at 6'7" against 6'11" Jack Sickma.
Re: Micheal Jordan
My only problem with Snaq is heart. Snaq did knock Jordan out of the finals 1 year.
What I'm saying is the league was changing despite Jordan. Ever since Ralph Sampson, big guys started to hone jumpsots and midrange games. 20 years ago you didn't have a league full of 6'11" pussies shooting three's.
Jordan didn't win shit UNTIL the powerhouse teams of the 80's got old. No knock against him. I personally feel that the Lakers, Celtics, Foe Foe Foe 76'ers of the 80's would completely dominate in any era.
My only problem with Snaq is heart. Snaq did knock Jordan out of the finals 1 year.
What I'm saying is the league was changing despite Jordan. Ever since Ralph Sampson, big guys started to hone jumpsots and midrange games. 20 years ago you didn't have a league full of 6'11" pussies shooting three's.
Jordan didn't win shit UNTIL the powerhouse teams of the 80's got old. No knock against him. I personally feel that the Lakers, Celtics, Foe Foe Foe 76'ers of the 80's would completely dominate in any era.
Re: Micheal Jordan
LS,
on the first 3 consecutive chicago bulls championship teams, there was 1 player who averaged double digit rebounds 1 time.
ONE player. ONE season. and it was EXACTLY 10 per game. and it was never bill cartwright.
LS,
on the first 3 consecutive chicago bulls championship teams, there was 1 player who averaged double digit rebounds 1 time.
ONE player. ONE season. and it was EXACTLY 10 per game. and it was never bill cartwright.
Re: Micheal Jordan
I get your argument... Im an 80s cat too...Bad Boyz Pistons teams.
I think those Bulls 3 peat teams could have beaten any of those 80s teams...especially the 2nd 3 peat team. NOTE... I didnt say they would, but I think there is really nothing to illustrates that they couldnt beat those teams.
I agree with you as well on your other point in terms of those other teams being able to play in any era. But no team is going to DOMINATE those Michael Jordan lead teams.
I also dont think it had anything to do with prime.... Those early Bulls teams just werent ready man...regardless of that Jordan did. Jordan still developing as a player. Pippen and Grant were still green and timid. They werent well-coached until Phil Jackson came along and then him and Tex Winters forced the triple-post offense on them. But a prime Jordan with a prime Pippen, etc cause so many matchup problems for Boston and LA as well that it would make for some interesting games.
However, that second 3peat team could be any team in the history of the game.
But those great Laker teams and also those great Boston teams could as well.
I get your argument... Im an 80s cat too...Bad Boyz Pistons teams.
I think those Bulls 3 peat teams could have beaten any of those 80s teams...especially the 2nd 3 peat team. NOTE... I didnt say they would, but I think there is really nothing to illustrates that they couldnt beat those teams.
I agree with you as well on your other point in terms of those other teams being able to play in any era. But no team is going to DOMINATE those Michael Jordan lead teams.
I also dont think it had anything to do with prime.... Those early Bulls teams just werent ready man...regardless of that Jordan did. Jordan still developing as a player. Pippen and Grant were still green and timid. They werent well-coached until Phil Jackson came along and then him and Tex Winters forced the triple-post offense on them. But a prime Jordan with a prime Pippen, etc cause so many matchup problems for Boston and LA as well that it would make for some interesting games.
However, that second 3peat team could be any team in the history of the game.
But those great Laker teams and also those great Boston teams could as well.
Re: Micheal Jordan
Co-sign all of the above. In that clip with Isiah, he spoke on the Bulls STILL having Jordan. Basically saying that he was the ultimate difference maker. Since retiring he'a always given a fair assessment of Jordan.
Lakers had the best squad i've seen, but that second 3-Peat team would have given any of those 80's teams a competitive series, and it would've began on the defensive end.
Co-sign all of the above. In that clip with Isiah, he spoke on the Bulls STILL having Jordan. Basically saying that he was the ultimate difference maker. Since retiring he'a always given a fair assessment of Jordan.
Lakers had the best squad i've seen, but that second 3-Peat team would have given any of those 80's teams a competitive series, and it would've began on the defensive end.
Re: Micheal Jordan
True. But look at these stats:
1st Tittle Opponents center
ivac. 11ppg, 8 rpg
2nd Tittle Opponents centeruckworth. 10.7ppg, 6 rpg
3rd Tittle Opponents center:West 5.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg
4th Tittle Opponents center:Brickowski. 5.4ppg, 2.4ppg
5th Tittle Opponents center:Oyster-Trash. 7.3ppg, 7.3ppg
6th Tittle Opponents center:Oyster-Trash. 4.7ppg, 5.9rpg
These are their regular season stats. He faced cream puffs at center in the finals. He only faced 2-3 top notch centers in the east.
Ewing never won shit. Even when Jordan was gone.
Mourning didn't win shit until D-Wage got the Stern treatment
Snaq didn't win until he got with Phil, but he did knock Jordan down once in the playoffs.
Who else? Christian Laettner? Brad Daugherty?Rik Smits?
I know you guys love 90's basketball, but I never cared for all the hacking and bullshit.
True. But look at these stats:
1st Tittle Opponents center
ivac. 11ppg, 8 rpg2nd Tittle Opponents center
uckworth. 10.7ppg, 6 rpg3rd Tittle Opponents center:West 5.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg
4th Tittle Opponents center:Brickowski. 5.4ppg, 2.4ppg
5th Tittle Opponents center:Oyster-Trash. 7.3ppg, 7.3ppg
6th Tittle Opponents center:Oyster-Trash. 4.7ppg, 5.9rpg
These are their regular season stats. He faced cream puffs at center in the finals. He only faced 2-3 top notch centers in the east.
Ewing never won shit. Even when Jordan was gone.
Mourning didn't win shit until D-Wage got the Stern treatment
Snaq didn't win until he got with Phil, but he did knock Jordan down once in the playoffs.
Who else? Christian Laettner? Brad Daugherty?Rik Smits?
I know you guys love 90's basketball, but I never cared for all the hacking and bullshit.
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Re: Micheal Jordan
I think the mid 80's Lakers and Celtics beat any of Jordans teams in a 7 game series. Too much teamwork.
DJ, Bird, The Chief and Kevin with Ainge? Plus bench depth?
Worthy, Magic, Scott, Jabbar, Bob McAdoo, Cooper?
Sorry man. Jordan's Bulls get nada in my opinion.
I think the mid 80's Lakers and Celtics beat any of Jordans teams in a 7 game series. Too much teamwork.
DJ, Bird, The Chief and Kevin with Ainge? Plus bench depth?
Worthy, Magic, Scott, Jabbar, Bob McAdoo, Cooper?
Sorry man. Jordan's Bulls get nada in my opinion.
Re: Micheal Jordan
That says a lot about Thomas and Jordan. Thomas and Jordan hated each other... to this day Jordan has nothing but negative things to day about Zeke...even in his books he blasts Zeke and the Pistons. The only person from that squad that he speaks positively about is Joe Dumars.
But Jordan was so great that Thomas can only be honest and call it like it is. He told Magic the truth as well... Jordan had the type of drive that they didnt. Jordan had a competitive disorder. Zeke and Magic obviously loved basketball and competition... I think the issue is just that Jordan didnt love anything else but basketball and competitive...almost to the point of it being a character flaw.
This has always been my argument. That second threat peat team was an absolute MONSTER on the defensive end. That is the only team that I can remember that could effectively run a grade-school style foul court press and stretch a game out on the defensive end... all fast, quick, etc and could stop a team from even getting past helf court.... Pippen, Grant, Jordan, and Rodman would get that press going in the 3rd quarter and just blow the game out...
Shit..even when the Bulls played the Lakers in the 1991 Finals (yeah that LA team was not the same prime showtime team), the Bulls Switched Pippen on Magic after Magic had those 20 assists in game 1 and that was a wrap... he had a body on magic 70 feet from the basket..completely fucked up the LA offense.
That says a lot about Thomas and Jordan. Thomas and Jordan hated each other... to this day Jordan has nothing but negative things to day about Zeke...even in his books he blasts Zeke and the Pistons. The only person from that squad that he speaks positively about is Joe Dumars.
But Jordan was so great that Thomas can only be honest and call it like it is. He told Magic the truth as well... Jordan had the type of drive that they didnt. Jordan had a competitive disorder. Zeke and Magic obviously loved basketball and competition... I think the issue is just that Jordan didnt love anything else but basketball and competitive...almost to the point of it being a character flaw.
This has always been my argument. That second threat peat team was an absolute MONSTER on the defensive end. That is the only team that I can remember that could effectively run a grade-school style foul court press and stretch a game out on the defensive end... all fast, quick, etc and could stop a team from even getting past helf court.... Pippen, Grant, Jordan, and Rodman would get that press going in the 3rd quarter and just blow the game out...
Shit..even when the Bulls played the Lakers in the 1991 Finals (yeah that LA team was not the same prime showtime team), the Bulls Switched Pippen on Magic after Magic had those 20 assists in game 1 and that was a wrap... he had a body on magic 70 feet from the basket..completely fucked up the LA offense.
Re: Micheal Jordan
Check above.... but I actually think the Celtics would have given them more problems than LA in my opinion because of the matchup issues. The Celtics could play with Chicago in the half court.
LA could play half court but they strived on the fast pace style and you could forget about that shit against that second 3 point team.... and defensively, they had players to defend the style of the LA players perfectly.... Grant on Worthy.... Pippen on Magic, Jordan on Scott, etc..all equal problems for LA... but on the other end, besides Cooper, LA had no real defensive tenacity.
Check above.... but I actually think the Celtics would have given them more problems than LA in my opinion because of the matchup issues. The Celtics could play with Chicago in the half court.
LA could play half court but they strived on the fast pace style and you could forget about that shit against that second 3 point team.... and defensively, they had players to defend the style of the LA players perfectly.... Grant on Worthy.... Pippen on Magic, Jordan on Scott, etc..all equal problems for LA... but on the other end, besides Cooper, LA had no real defensive tenacity.
Re: Micheal Jordan
I know the history on Jordan/Magic/Zeek, but at some point you gotta let shit go. I think Jordan is the GOAT on the court, but I have little respect for him off the court. I have always respected Isiah's honesty. He gets a bad rap in my opinion. At least he's honest. Especially since they don't have love for one another.
I don't think Zeek or Magic is saying MJ is the greatest in being humble. They mean that shit, and rightfully so.
No doubt. They could go big in the backcourt (with Harper) as well to match with bigger guards. They definitely had length. Jordan, Pippen & Rodman were a beast when they stepped it up defensively.
I know the history on Jordan/Magic/Zeek, but at some point you gotta let shit go. I think Jordan is the GOAT on the court, but I have little respect for him off the court. I have always respected Isiah's honesty. He gets a bad rap in my opinion. At least he's honest. Especially since they don't have love for one another.
I don't think Zeek or Magic is saying MJ is the greatest in being humble. They mean that shit, and rightfully so.
No doubt. They could go big in the backcourt (with Harper) as well to match with bigger guards. They definitely had length. Jordan, Pippen & Rodman were a beast when they stepped it up defensively.
Re: Micheal Jordan
But who takes Kareem? That is the X-factor. Kareem would have scored 30+ a game against those bulls.
But who takes Kareem? That is the X-factor. Kareem would have scored 30+ a game against those bulls.
Re: Micheal Jordan
No doubt. Kareem would get his points, but the Bulls would put the clamps on everyone else. Kareem getting 30 is not a problem ff you lock everyone else down. I would actually prefer Kareem to get his 30 and clamp down on magic, worthy and scott...
btw.. I believe Kareem is the greatest center of all-time. I think you picked Bill as your goat... but I dont think Kareem would really be the xfactor in terms of being able to dominate that series in the same way Jordan could...because the Lakers have NOTHING for Jordan. Cooper was a defensive stopper but his particular style of defense would be completely ineffective against Jordan and cooper was too skinny and weak to deal with Jordan in the post...
now on the other hand.. I think Bird, McHale at the 3 and 4 is a bit different..
But who takes Kareem? That is the X-factor. Kareem would have scored 30+ a game against those bulls.
No doubt. Kareem would get his points, but the Bulls would put the clamps on everyone else. Kareem getting 30 is not a problem ff you lock everyone else down. I would actually prefer Kareem to get his 30 and clamp down on magic, worthy and scott...
btw.. I believe Kareem is the greatest center of all-time. I think you picked Bill as your goat... but I dont think Kareem would really be the xfactor in terms of being able to dominate that series in the same way Jordan could...because the Lakers have NOTHING for Jordan. Cooper was a defensive stopper but his particular style of defense would be completely ineffective against Jordan and cooper was too skinny and weak to deal with Jordan in the post...
now on the other hand.. I think Bird, McHale at the 3 and 4 is a bit different..
Re: Micheal Jordan
I don't think the 3 peat Bulls dominate a young Lakers backcourt. remember the beat the pistons
I don't think the 3 peat Bulls dominate a young Lakers backcourt. remember the beat the pistons
Magic could play 2 positions that Jordan could not play and that was PF and C. Otherwise kill that tough comparison Magic is not much older and Jordan played against much the same tough competition. The league started going soft in the mid-early 90's by then Jordan already had to play against tough Boston, Detroit, Philly, and New York teams of the late 80's and early 90's.
Exactly. Jordan just didn't win on a team level (championship-wise), much like Lebron, now. Neither simply had the supporting cast and coaching to win championships. Dude came in the league fucking shit up, but as with any great player he later developed a more complete game.
Re: Micheal Jordan
I dont either. I dont think I said dominate. I think either of these 3 teams could beat the other in a 7 game series. I just think the Bulls had the best defense of all the three...substantially better than LA and better than Boston.
I dont either. I dont think I said dominate. I think either of these 3 teams could beat the other in a 7 game series. I just think the Bulls had the best defense of all the three...substantially better than LA and better than Boston.
magic has done something jordan or no other player has done. he's won a high school state championship, a college championship, and a nba championship in a 4 year period. not to mention magic could play all 5 positions on the court.
just food for thought
just food for thought
And he could rebound and pass at a triple-double level.
The league started "going soft" when it expanded from 22/23 teams (Magic's championship time) to 27/29 teams (Jordan's championship time). The talent was totally diluted in Jordan's prime era. The best teams went from having 5 or 6 top quality players to having 2 and sometimes 3.
That argument always gets me. Especially considering that Lakers team he played with as a rookie.
"Oh really? I might have a little something to say about that..."
I love this pic... Bill has more rings than fingers
I remember he told KG if he never won a ring, he would give him one of his...lol
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