What a fucking asshole. Sponsored by the Manhattan Institue.
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/conscious-hiphop-fallacy/79820/
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/conscious-hiphop-fallacy/79820/
John McWhorter rips 'Conscious' Hiphop
- Thread starter Mr. Met
- Start date
That brotha is 100% right.
Truth, you just proved one of the things he mentioned:
This brings to mind, of all things, the "civilized" consensus on hiphop. Criticize the violence and sexism, and get ready for a tsunami of emails hotly objecting, "It's not all like that!"
Name just one thing that he's wrong about.
Truth, you just proved one of the things he mentioned:
This brings to mind, of all things, the "civilized" consensus on hiphop. Criticize the violence and sexism, and get ready for a tsunami of emails hotly objecting, "It's not all like that!"
Name just one thing that he's wrong about.
The question is can you analyze all conscious hip-hop in such a short article?
He does what every black conservative does. Downplay any conscious thought within the black community.
Word.
Rappers should say what they wanna say and let the chips fall where they may.
It is on the listener and his or her intelligence to glean what is useful to them, discard what is not and investigate what they don't understand. I don't agree with everything any artist says but I don't feel I need to. Hip Hop gets over-analyzed once again.
How is hip-hop being over analyzed just in this context? Rappers have the right to say whatever they want but others also have a right to critique what they're saying. McWhorters didn't say it was an abomination that caused all of the ills in society. He said it can't be used to save black america AND HE'S RIGHT.
Hip-hop is entertainment but it's also has some dangerous messages that he pointed out (anti-education rhetoric, pointing @ external causes for our problems, apathy @ black crime & immorality).
This is a very light criticism of hip-hop. We all like certain music but that doesn't change the fact that some of the messages while angry aren't accurate & won't help orient a person towards any meaningful resolutions.
What "anti-education" rhetoric?
The rappers are critiqing the type of education that's given.
Does noticing that racism exists mean that we're dealing with external problems?
Apathy towards black crime and immorality? Where?
Give examples?
Why doesn't he research more underground artists rather that skimming shit to fit the Manhattan Institute agenda.
Remember, this is coming from the same man that said "come On, People" is the most important book of our generation.
I read the book and that's a sad commentary coming from a so-called black scholar.
Kanye for example takes jabs at education & college. If an artist *only* talks about racism & claims that it's the major problem w/o talking about what individuals aren't doing to get ahead or are doing to put themselves in jeopardy, yes. Kweli talks about "blacks & latin in prison..." yet he ain't talking about the wildly disproportionate amount of murders, rapes, assaults we commit when you look @ what percentage of the population we make up. McWhorter's example of Black Thought pointed out an apathetic approach to what he sees everyday in the hood. You know there's plenty of examples of shyt we shouldn't aspire too in hip-hop man, c'mon. Like Chris Rock said, it's hard to defend "Move bitch, get out the way"... Dude didn't even touch on the misogyny in some hip-hop.
The point he's making is hip-hop doesn't have a clear, consistent progression vision, ideology or set of values that black people should aspire too. It's entertainment only & shouldn't be used to instruct black folx. McWhorters himself listens to hip-hop. He's just smart enough to know not to try to adopt the values in the music.
The point he's making is hip-hop doesn't have a clear, consistent progression vision, ideology or set of values that black people should aspire too. It's entertainment only & shouldn't be used to instruct black folx. McWhorters himself listens to hip-hop. He's just smart enough to know not to try to adopt the values in the music.
He's right, it's hard to hip-hop into a positive type of a solution for blacks. It hasn't even been 60 years yet since we're considered on equal ground with whites in this country. Hip-Hop, even the considered good hip-hop still has degrading messages and still influence separation which is probably one of the bigger issues with the music.
One thing about this country is that we're seeing that things must be done "one" way in order to achieve success. Until rappers realize that and stop trying to convince others to "follow my style" we'll be considered outcast and a angry group of people.
One thing about this country is that we're seeing that things must be done "one" way in order to achieve success. Until rappers realize that and stop trying to convince others to "follow my style" we'll be considered outcast and a angry group of people.
Again, who said that hip-hop was the SOLUTION to all blacks problems?
Anyone familiar with McWhorter knows that he slanders and broad slaps any and all black based culture when given the chance.
You're fighting an uphill battle on this one because BGOL doesn't like to check out a persons motives. If a writer talks about the same things a poster hates about hip hop it will get a co sign even if its written in a way that clearly misrepresents hip hop and black culture. This same board took shots at Busta after the god damn police commissioner held a press conference to announce that busta wasn't cooperating, but he wasn't a suspect and they had no proof that he witnessed anything.
These articles are not written for underground heads, hip hop vets, or even the causal listener. They're written for white people who have no reference point to tell wether this is a well written piece or a piece of shit.
He's right. Hip-Hop can't save Black people....right now I see it further pushing people deeper and deeper into ignorance. When "Tim Russert" passed on Friday I noticed many black people didn't know who he was....these same people could tell you what Lil' Wayne had on at the BET awards....
Your talking falsehood there, bro.
Folks are missing the point.
Its not the value of the rap as music, its the value of the rap as social catalyst.
The same criticism applies to folks thinking Nirvana records would change suburban apathy for the better, if only people really listened. But nobody did that on nearly the same scale as we tend to with black music. Its a lesson to us that looking at rappers, conscious or otherwise, for guidance to a better society is asinine.
Its not the value of the rap as music, its the value of the rap as social catalyst.
The same criticism applies to folks thinking Nirvana records would change suburban apathy for the better, if only people really listened. But nobody did that on nearly the same scale as we tend to with black music. Its a lesson to us that looking at rappers, conscious or otherwise, for guidance to a better society is asinine.
McWhorter spoke of this book when he had a 3-hour appearance on CSPAN a few months back.
For The Record...
McWhorter is a Rap/Hip-Hop fan.
He expressed that much.
And Dude's more Libertarian, than Conservative.
I believe his argument is that it's not political in its current form. Though it reads like he's saying its never been political. I'll have to read the book to get in depth about that.
But what do people expect when on one hand, some talk about Hip-Hop/Rap being the TRUE voice of Black America. Yet, diss BLACK people who criticize its misogyny, materialism, (Black on Black) violence, etc, as being out of touch, too White, old, etc. Can't have it both ways. I know I don't want today's shit to be representative of me as a Black Man. Does that make me a traitor to my race?
I'm 45. So I'm definitely not looking for Rap to "save" my ASS. But I would hope that today's young would have a sense of how to carry oneself in the world. Especially being Black. It used to be that way. Hell. I listened to Hip-Hop/Rap, starting all the way from its origins (I grew up in Da Bronx and Harlem in the 70s). And shit was new. Peeps were trying different things.
You had your party Rappers. Then you had your conscious Rappers. You had a few violent Rappers. But the latter didn't dominate the music. And were very, very few.
Black Music was used to political effect. Jazz, R&B, Funk, Rock (its BLACK music. OK?) used their mediums to voice dissent. Hip-Hop did too at one point. Now it doesn't. And whereas other forms of Black music progressed (not R&B sadly), Rap became mired in garbage.
I truly feel we have to move beyond what's going on creatively with Rap/Hip-Hop. Because it appears that we got comfortable with the trash we're fed. Which makes us stuck.
Shit....
Now I'll have to get McWhorter's book.
For The Record...
McWhorter is a Rap/Hip-Hop fan.
He expressed that much.
And Dude's more Libertarian, than Conservative.
I believe his argument is that it's not political in its current form. Though it reads like he's saying its never been political. I'll have to read the book to get in depth about that.
But what do people expect when on one hand, some talk about Hip-Hop/Rap being the TRUE voice of Black America. Yet, diss BLACK people who criticize its misogyny, materialism, (Black on Black) violence, etc, as being out of touch, too White, old, etc. Can't have it both ways. I know I don't want today's shit to be representative of me as a Black Man. Does that make me a traitor to my race?
I'm 45. So I'm definitely not looking for Rap to "save" my ASS. But I would hope that today's young would have a sense of how to carry oneself in the world. Especially being Black. It used to be that way. Hell. I listened to Hip-Hop/Rap, starting all the way from its origins (I grew up in Da Bronx and Harlem in the 70s). And shit was new. Peeps were trying different things.
You had your party Rappers. Then you had your conscious Rappers. You had a few violent Rappers. But the latter didn't dominate the music. And were very, very few.
Black Music was used to political effect. Jazz, R&B, Funk, Rock (its BLACK music. OK?) used their mediums to voice dissent. Hip-Hop did too at one point. Now it doesn't. And whereas other forms of Black music progressed (not R&B sadly), Rap became mired in garbage.
I truly feel we have to move beyond what's going on creatively with Rap/Hip-Hop. Because it appears that we got comfortable with the trash we're fed. Which makes us stuck.
Shit....
Now I'll have to get McWhorter's book.
I think peoples main beef is that when you make case against a position very few people have taken, but at the same type fail to deal with large parts of the subject you're arguing you can't get upset or confused when people call bullshit on you. People over the age of 35 can only play stupid if they where in a coma during the 90's. They talk about the violence in hip hop but not the fact that a whole generation was introduced to Malcolm X through hip hop.
His article and argument sounds like the same BS issue people take against PE for Flav's actions. Flav isn't doing anything outside of what's always been the norm for him. The fact is that more people knew about PE from an image point of view and not their personas. What writers like that refuse to accept is that hip hop is much more complex then they want to admit. Im always suspect of writers who want to take on any part of hip hop to an outside audience without giving a summery of the cultures rules and at the same time IGNORE the corporate machine that profits from hip hop.
That's all dude is saying. Enjoy the music as entertainment but DO NOT look to hip-hop to guide our morals, values, standards, & priorities.
Cosign.
The premise is deeply flawed.......whos actually looking for hip hop of any kind to save us as a people? Surely, hip hop as an artform has actually saved the lives of some individuals who took it seriously and used it to escape deadlier alternatives but to suggest that we are all praying at the altar of "Conscious Rap" is silly as hell.
There's a bit of intellectual dishonesty here, evidenced by the choice of quotes in McWhorter's article. Rap in particular is a storytelling art..........it's not a passive experience. People are meant to engage with stories through the prism of their own experiences.
So miss me with this paternalistic bullshit.
I don't buy that's his motive. He cites Pete Rock and Dead Prez so Im sure he's familiar with ATCQ's Q-Tip saying "hip hop.....a way of life it doesn't tell how to raise your child or treat your wife" That's the type of shit that's always missing or forgotten in these types of articles until someone writes a detailed rebuttal.
yeah most of us are just some dumb ignorant black coons they need to kill us or lock us all up because we are dumb worthless and worry about the wrong stuff. Not talking about you though you one of the good negroes like Obama and Tiger and Condi
I am talking about the other 99% of us who cant seem to get right or think right or is that white?<sarcasm>
I hear ya....but this article is problematic bruh. McWhorter makes a number of points that can only be arrived at via lazy thinking.
Here are the points he makes as I see it.
- The 'Civilized" consensus on rap is that it is replete with violence and sexism. (somehwat true)
- Conscious rap fans are largely anti-education, anti-authoritarian agitators. (this is an incredibly lazy observation)
- The nature of the challenges facing the black community demands solutions that "conscious rap" can't deliver, since for the most part, this type of rap is overly focused on the evils of the "system" etc etc (somewhat true, but again the premise is silly)
So basically.........this article is not very insightful at all.
Of Note...
That interest in Malcolm in Hip-Hop started in the mid-80s. In New York anyway. I know it hit westward as the years went, because I ended up moving out West in '90. Thing is, that interest went nowhere. If it did, you think we'd have all this crap passing for Black music today?
It's common knowledge that corporations. That's nothing new. And we heard the stories about how artists were told to change their image in order to sell, etc. But many Black artists have fought music companies for creative control. That's because a few of those artists saw a community at stake. And felt the need to address issues as such. Today's artists have much more creative control than ever. And chose not to do anything progressive with it.
I don't see Hip-Hop any more complex than other types of music out there. with the exception of Pop of course. The lyrics these days are too damn simple. It's more silly "anthem", than an actual song or skill. Rock and Jazz (Classical of course) remain more complex music forms these days. That's why they fill my MP3 player more.
Besides, Rap is part of the Pop music landscape. So writers are going after just as much as others forms of Pop.
As far as PE,
My thing is that I always felt Chuck D was the Teacher, and Flav was the ignorant, rowdy student. Their records showcase that. But I got to admit, when I saw PE in Portland, OR in the mid-90s, I become seriously conflicted with them.
When Flav asked that 90% White (boy) crowd to chant "YO NIGGA!", the Sista I was rolling with and I look squarely at one another, and said "OH NO. FUCK THIS SHIT!" And all those White boys were going on about "YO NIGGA!" over and over. Wonder where Chuck D's mind was at.
Calling Michael Eric Dyson!!!!
Perhaps you missed the context...PE has a song that's called "Im Not Yo Nigga"...just a thought. Perhaps he got them to chant the chorus..."Yo Nigga"
Peace,
Whoever said "Hip Hop will save black America"? I certainly haven't heard anyone say that. All McWhorter has done with this article/book excerpt is deconstruct a strawman argument that he himself created.
Whoever said "Hip Hop will save black America"? I certainly haven't heard anyone say that. All McWhorter has done with this article/book excerpt is deconstruct a strawman argument that he himself created.
cue Colin, cause I ain't readin' this shit! McWhorter is a bitch and he has been one ever since he wrote that MLK came out against vietnam primarily because he had lost his publicity, become largely ineffective, and was trying to keep himself in the public eye. Someone that has faded into ineffectiveness does NOT get assassinated. I read that bullshit in 1999, and ever since then McWhorter has had no credibility with me. Fuck him and anything he has to say.
Your right.
That is the correct title.
I had to check through my CDs.
My point was maybe that wasn't the right song to rap given the audience.
Yes and no to your last point. You're right about Malcolm. In the 80's people where being reminded of him when the NOI and Farrakhan where bringing the people out selling out MSG etc. There's always been that connect with hip hop because of the NGE's in NY.
I'd disagree because of wide range of lyrical content. Jazz and Blues could be described as polar opposites by some, rock n roll represented rebellion and soul was at its best a reflection of the human emotional experience . Hip hop turned all of those neat and convent descriptions on its head not just with the music but the subject matter.
Keep in mind it was these same type of writers who invented the term "gansta rap" That shit never existed. We called it all hip hop.
Hip-Hop used to defy conventions. Especially in its beginnings. I have to say that it's just run of the mill now.
Maybe music writers did invent the term "Gansta Rap". Hell you have lots of Rappers who lay claim to that too. And are proud of it. So something happened to create this monster. And for (some of) of us to so easily accept it.
IMHO...
I don't find a lot of today's Hip-Hop deep. I still listen to folks like KRS-ONE. Because even when some of his lyrics come off as silly, Dude still sounds deep.
So work with me.
Who's complex and deep to you these days?
Because I work with a lot of young cats that do Rap shows. Though I find they're more interested in matching words and copping girls instead of being deep.
We're kind of getting away from the topic. I don't think rap has to be deep all the time. When you go to see a movie...are you always looking for something heavy (like Requiem for a Dream) or do you sometimes want something relatively light and predictable (like the vast majority of films made these days)?
To answer your question here's just a few "deep" songs that come to mind because I've listened to them recently.
Mr.J.Medeiros - Constance
[flash]http://www.youtube.com/v/5rhHc3-_OzE&hl=en[/flash]
Pharoahe Monche - Gun Draws
[flash]http://www.youtube.com/v/JZ6-FYAngvc&hl=en[/flash]
Stic.man - I Believe
[flash]http://www.youtube.com/v/jpe0b5QVs-0&hl=en[/flash]
Point taken...
2 things..
1> McWhorters LISTENS to hip-hop. He always talks about how he loves Outkast.
2> ATCQ also had a song called Sucka Nigga. Should we also use that as an example of what we should emulate or embrace? And, that's the point. It's MUSIC, entertainment. Nothing more, nothing less.
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