So Laurence Frank...tell me

cranrab said:
i'd still lead towards a (lack of) discipline issue: maintaining proper spacing, rotation, awareness, tendency to drift.



i think the nets may be onto something with vince carter coming off the bench. it gives a little more punch and stability to the 2nd unit. more overall balance in the attack between 1st and 2nd squads. i like it.
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All those things will improve with PLAYING TIME. Not sitting time. Instead of learning all these things in bits and spurts. Just put the guy in and let him learn it NOW. Why wait until you're either out of the race or fighting for a playoff spot?


One of my biggest bugaboos with Frank is how he doesn't play his draft picks. He did/does the same thing with Antoine Wright for 2 years now and Marcus Williams and Josh Boone last year. Playing them 5-10 minutes a game while there was NO other viable options AND the team was losing. It's no wonder why the rookies don't grasp things.

If Frank was coaching the Nets back when Richard Jefferson was a rookie, dude would still be coming off the bench and maybe playing 20 minutes a game. I hate the dude because he acts like the Nets are the Spurs or something. And he's Phil Jackson or Greg Poppavich. Winning 55-60 games a season and getting deep into the playoffs. If they were, I would understand not playing the youngsters, but we've constantly only hovered around the .500 mark and are barely making the playoffs. We wouldn't make it at all if we were in any other division. So whatever he's doing ain't working. Play the muthafukkas and stop bullshitting


Under Byron Scott, I guarantee Williams is starting and playing 25-35 minutes per game by now. At least he would be starting. Learning by trial and fire rather than sitting on the bench gaining NO playing experiences at all. In fact, I'd bet Scott would have Marcus Williams in the mix by now as well. I mean, he might take a minute to do it, but he'd do it. Not wait until the dudes are 5 year vets to play them


Make no mistake, the Nets are going NOWHERE under this bogus strategy
 
Speaking of Antoine Wright, the Nets declined his option for next year. What do you think about that?

I hope the Nets dont plan on resigning him or it's going to cost them a lot more than the 4th year on the back of that rookie contract he signed.
 
xfactor said:
Speaking of Antoine Wright, the Nets declined his option for next year. What do you think about that?

I hope the Nets dont plan on resigning him or it's going to cost them a lot more than the 4th year on the back of that rookie contract he signed.
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I think it's typical. Give the guy little or no shot, then decline him an offer.

I bet if he was European, he'd get more playing time

All in all, he's not bad. He just needs to have his role defined. He's capable of scoring if given the consistent opportunity

But consistentcy is not one of Franks' strong suits. At least not with youngsters. Maybe with bums like Collins and Euros like Krstic and Nachbar
 
don't kill the messenger. i'm just floating this idea to keep an interesting topic going.

regarding the collins v. williams mystery, i think i may have found a partially acceptable reason.

among ALL players who average the same amount of minutes as williams, there are ONLY TWO who average a greater amount of turnovers.

on the other hand, collins averages almost the same amount of minutes as williams, but averages almost HALF the amount of turnovers as williams.

speak up!
 
Too many coaches (NBA & NCAA) place too much emphasis on turnovers. Most believe if you commit no turnovers, you will win.
I disagree with this philosophy to the extent that if you RUN the ball, you are going to make mistakes. The more you run, the more mistakes you will make.

There is no PG in the NBA who commits more TO's than JASON KIDD. If he is not making them, it is because he is not RUNNING. And if he is not running, you better believe his team is NOT WINNING.

In order to achieve greatness, you are going to make some mistakes. Very often, the greatest players will make the biggest mistakes. But we all make them.

It is the great player (or in life person) who will acknowledge those mistakes, correct himself and take himself (and his team) to greater heights.

I contend that the player who makes NO mistakes, if the mutha fugga who never tried to do anything great. He is content on being mediocre.

Having said all that. How can the coach use TOs as an excuse when this man has played what?? 11 games?? The ONLY way to build chemistry is through continuity. If you are constantly changing parts, there will never be any familiarity and we will continue to make mistakes.

Look at the Celtics boxscore from Tuesday night. Check out the minutes. Four starters logged over 45 minutes each (the game went to OT). I guarantee you if that trend continues and those same 4 or 5 players continue to get those kind of minutes, by playoff time, they will be in tune with each other and the turnovers will come less frequently (barring injuries of course)


But if you continue to play a decent player sporadically while playing a BUM constantly.....the decent guy will continue to show FLASHES of brillance in between his mistakes, while the bum will continue to show flashes of DISASTER in between his mediocrity


but at least you won't have any turnovers. Good luck Laurence
 
i'm willing to meet you part of the way. but your explanation is too lenient for shit-birds. what about the chuckers with lazy execution and bad decision making like jerry stackhouse and antoine walker?

i don't feel that steve francis deserves the benefit of the doubt for his poor court vision, nor do i give a pass to the likes of jim jackson.

playmakers who initiate the O (isiah thomas, john stockton, earvin johnson, kevin johnson) all fit the mold of players who pushed the envelope while performing, and earned higher TOs in doing so.

offensive juggernauts like shaquille o'neal and allen iverson also get a nod from me, because of the way defenses collapsed and attacked them mercilessly.

i also feel that TOs are a fairly solid indicator of success in basketball. teams that finish at the bottom of the league are ROUTINELY above the league average in TOs, while teams that finish at the top of the league are USUALLY below the league average in TOs.

incidentally, the nets are currently leading the league in TOs, and i'm gonna stick with my hypothesis that coach frank is trying to limit total TOs by playing the guy who never averaged more than 1.2 TOs a game for his career.

not agreeing with coach frank AT ALL, just mentioning that i think i'm getting closer to understanding his rationale. i like williams, because i think he's an energy player: a mark madsen type player that can finish around the rim and block shots.
 
Let me add that all players are not meant to run. But the players the NETS have should be. Having watched them under Scott, that much is painfully obvious. Jason Kidd will always be a runner, not a plodder. And with NO inside game, it's almost mandantory that the Nets run just to get points.

I thought since the early Kidd days, and since they drafted thoroughbreds like Jefferson, Marcus & Sean Williams and Antoine Wright, not to mention trading for a player who thrives in the uptempo game like Vince Carter that running (as opposed to grinding) the ball would be obvious
 
cranrab said:
don't kill the messenger. i'm just floating this idea to keep an interesting topic going.

regarding the collins v. williams mystery, i think i may have found a partially acceptable reason.

among ALL players who average the same amount of minutes as williams, there are ONLY TWO who average a greater amount of turnovers.

on the other hand, collins averages almost the same amount of minutes as williams, but averages almost HALF the amount of turnovers as williams.

speak up!
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Great point. You definitely don't want a player like Williams (who is a play finisher and not initiator) to commit a lot of TOs.

To me, committing turnovers mainly come from lack of focus and concentration (finishers/fillers) or negligence and trying to force (starters/PG).

Williams is not initiating any offense or facing any doubles so averaging anything over 1 TO per game is bad.

RS,

How many of the TOs that Williams are getting are offensive fouls as opposed to bad handling (loss balls or bad passing)
 
i wanted to add something else to the mix so we could approach this from a slightly different angle.

NOBODY could soundly argue that jason collins has been a productive player for the nets. in fact, it would be an understatement to say that jason collins has been a career underachiever. HOWEVER, we should remind ourselves that jason collins has also been the STARTER since DAY ONE. and that includes the seasons of the championship runs.

why do i bring this up? because if the blame lies with anyone, it shouldn't be on the coaches who choose to play him, it should be with the GM (and possibly the owner) who have been negligent to the point of incompetence in going out and getting a productive pivot player for the nets.

realistically, you'd have to go back about a DECADE to recall the nets' last productive pivot men: jayson williams and, err, shawn bradley.

so while we can all agree that jason collins is clearly NOT the answer to the prayers of long-suffering nets fans, wouldn't we be too hasty and premature in suggesting that sean williams IS?
 
Rollie_Fingaz said:
Alonzo Mourning.
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alonzo don't count. he was in and out of nj in the blink of an eye. and for the VERY BRIEF time that he did play in a nets uniform, he wasn't very productive.

at least not as productive as jayson williams. maybe as productive as shaun bradley, but not jayson williams.
 
cranrab said:
so while we can all agree that jason collins is clearly NOT the answer to the prayers of long-suffering nets fans, wouldn't we be too hasty and premature in suggesting that sean williams IS?
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Of course not. I certainly am not suggesting that. I don't even believe Williams IS a center. He seems more suited to be a PF

About Collins in the lineup being management's fault: You must not have been reading my posts about the Nets throughtout the years. I've been on Rod Thorn's case to get a real big since we had TIM MCCULLOCH as the starting center in the 1st championship season....

I remember posting that we should go after NAZR MUHAMMAD way back when he was on the Sixers. That's how long I've been on this topic

About Sean WIlliams: He commits ROOKIE MISTAKES. He has ZERO games in expereince compared to Collins. Y'all comparing him to a 5-7 year vet in terms of handling the ball. Williams only fault is that he's actually trying to make something happen when he has the ball in stark contrast to Collins whom merely holds it and HANDS the ball to Kidd WHENEVER OR WHEREVER he gets it. The majority of Collins' TOs come from when he is under his own basket and CAN'T pass the ball to Kidd.

He also gets just as many offensive fouls as Wlliams
 
Must give credit where credit is due. Lil Lord Lorry done went and finally decided that winning IS more important than winning HIS way. Not only has he inserted Williams in the starting lineup, but he's inserted Josh Boone as well

and the B.U.M is finally where he belongs. Mopping up. Results?? The Nets aren't winning every game, but they are COMPETING in every game and have a real chance now. Congrats Lorry.


somebody musta smacked his ass
 
RunawaySlave said:
Must give credit where credit is due. Lil Lord Lorry done went and finally decided that winning IS more important than winning HIS way. Not only has he inserted Williams in the starting lineup, but he's inserted Josh Boone as well

and the B.U.M is finally where he belongs. Mopping up. Results?? The Nets aren't winning every game, but they are COMPETING in every game and have a real chance now. Congrats Lorry.


somebody musta smacked his ass
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I was just about to post this.

I was checking out the Nets boxscore as I have Boone and Vince Carter on my BGOL BAD BALLAS fantasy team and saw your boy Jason Collins logged a DNP-CD :eek:

I like the Net's new starting rotation and if Magloire ever regains his low post scoring ability, the Nets could seriously make a run.

Just like Denver, if the Nets simply upgraded their COACH, they would have a chance to compete for a title with their current squads.
 
Five in a row with youknowwho on the bench and the rookies and 2nd year guys starting and the increased tempo. Even VC looks invigorated

One thing though....we'd better get a decent sub for RJ. He's starting to look a little tired

Tyrus Thomas would look good taking passes from Kidd on the break. Or maybe ATL can spare Josh Childress
 
RunawaySlave said:
Five in a row with youknowwho on the bench and the rookies and 2nd year guys starting and the increased tempo. Even VC looks invigorated

One thing though....we'd better get a decent sub for RJ. He's starting to look a little tired

Tyrus Thomas would look good taking passes from Kidd on the break. Or maybe ATL can spare Josh Childress
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:lol: The Nets got that ass whooped last night.

:lol: Still think Lawrence Frank is the man for the job? :lol:
 
xfactor said:
:lol: The Nets got that ass whooped last night.

:lol: Still think Lawrence Frank is the man for the job? :lol:
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Rollie_Fingaz said:
...Jason Kidd has 10 assists..in the first QUARTER...:eek:
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I was just about to post on this. The Nets were rolling along, winning by 15 after the first quarter, when Williams got his 3rd foul and had to go to the bench early in the 2nd quarter. Not long afterwards, when Isiah finally put Nate Robinson in the game, is when the Knicks made a 25-10 run (I think) to pull within 3 or 4 points by halftime.

After halftime, Williams got that 4th foul pretty quickly (as rookies are apt to do) and had to sit again and the Knicks went on to take the lead and get it up to double digits (with you know who in the game getting ABUSED by Zebo). While that 4th foul definitely hurt, Franks did not have to sit the guy for the entire second half like he did

Williams did not get back into the game until the FOURTH quarter and there were about 5 minutes lefts and the nets were down by 15.

Not long after that, the Nets cut that lead down and even pulled even

For some reason, Frank still feels the need to put Collins in the game. This man offers NOTHING productive. All this dude can do is set a pick....and foul. He can foul with the best of them. Franks also seems to favor Malik Allen, who is serviceable enough, but can't impact a game DEFENSIVELY like Williams

The Nets seem to be holding out on that PF spot for Nonads Kristic to return. Hoping that the Euro is their savior to take them to the promised land

Please remember that Lord Lorri had Josh Boone planted on the bench for the first month of the season and he was a constant DNP. It was only by default that Boone got any minutes as there was absolutely no one left. Boone got the opportunity and put up some numbers. Not letting the coach put him back on the bench (much like Williams is doing)

But little lord Lori refuses to see the handwriting

There was a comical point in the game last night were Franks summoned Jamal Magloire to go into the game. Magloire was on one of those stationary bikes and didn't know what was going on, headed towards the locker room instead
 
Rollie_Fingaz said:
Wow. Magic is KILLING Vince Carter.
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Yes, I was watching that. Magic got beef with VC? :confused:

I don't remember Vince ever being consistent game to game with his slashing to the basket.

Well not after coming to the Nets, anyway. He started to shy away from attacking the rim after he went through that whole "Lay-up King" controversy early in his career with Toronto.
 
:lol: Don Nelson is pulling "Hack-a-Shaq" on Josh Boone

He's 3-4 FTA during that stretch.

3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter too :lol:

And he fouls him again! :eek:
 
Don Nelson is an idiot. He let the Nets back into the game with that strategy. Even though Josh missed most of the FTs. All those stoppages in play gave the Nets, whom were playing 6 games on the west coast in 9 days, a much needed rest PLUS it stopped the clock

He also succeeded in firing the team up.

Nets lost anyway. But only cause Franks is too stupid to take advantage.
 
:(

Let me just say that this team definitely had what it needed to at least make the playoffs. At least, we had the bodies. I still remember Jefferson (that vaunted truth teller) saying after one victory, that if we just put our best five on the court we can contend with anyone. Josh Boone wasn't a starter at the time and Williams was getting spotty minutes here and there.....

Well, Williams has gotten NO minutes since the Jason Kidd trade, Boone is manning the paint ALONE most nights and look what the results are.....


draft lottery
Good job
 
RunawaySlave said:
:(

Let me just say that this team definitely had what it needed to at least make the playoffs. At least, we had the bodies. I still remember Jefferson (that vaunted truth teller) saying after one victory, that if we just put our best five on the court we can contend with anyone. Josh Boone wasn't a starter at the time and Williams was getting spotty minutes here and there.....

Well, Williams has gotten NO minutes since the Jason Kidd trade, Boone is manning the paint ALONE most nights and look what the results are.....


draft lottery
Good job
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Larry Brown still available. How about hiring him?

Also, what does the team plan to do with the Marcus Williams/Devin Harris PG situation?
 
While Brown is a good coach, I wouldn't want him. Because no matter where he goes, he always has one foot out the door. Even when he has a long term contract

Frank handled Marcus Williams situation terribly. But the guy is mature and handled it well. But I don't think the franchise sees him as the starter. At least, not at the point. Harris will be the starter as long as he stays healthy (not a given with him)

The Nets problem is not the 1, 2 or 3. It's the same as it's been for years. The 4 and 5. We might've solved the 5 problem (by accident) with Josh Boone, but that 4 is still a point of contention and as long as we reserve that spot for lames like Krisbitch and Nachbum, we will never get back to championship contention.

We haven't had men in the paint since Kenyon left. We've only had floppers who faint when they see a real g come down the lane with authority. I maintain that you cannot win if you have bigs who can't stop 6'5" SGs from dunking on them while they can only shoot 20 footers themselves.....

not winning basketball
 
Richard Jefferson: Nets didn't 'click'

BY JULIAN GARCIA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Saturday, April 12th 2008, 11:33 PM
Bello/Getty

Richard Jefferson led the Nets with 21 points win over the Bucks on Saturday.

MILWAUKEE - Richard Jefferson is the only player remaining from the Nets' back-to-back Finals appearances and the years when they were a perennial contender in the East.

Those days are gone. And Jefferson was in no mood to look back before Saturday night's 111-98 win over the Bucks.

In fact, Jefferson wasn't looking further back than two months ago as the Nets played their first game since being eliminated from the playoff race on Friday in Toronto.

Jefferson, who led the Nets with 24 points last night, said the trade that sent Jason Kidd to Dallas and brought Devin Harris and four others to New Jersey made it difficult for the already struggling Nets to make a strong push for the playoffs.

The team has struggled for consistency, lacking cohesion on both ends. Never was that more obvious than in their previous two games, when they coughed up a pair of 14-point leads, sealing their fate.

"This is not a reflection type thing," Jefferson said. "This is not a moment you sit back and stare at all the things that have happened. We've had a struggle this season, didn't play the way we would have liked. It's been disappointing. We got Devin and those guys, it took us awhile to click and we still haven't gotten into a rhythm and here we are."

The Nets will miss the playoffs for the first time since the 2000-01 season, the year before Jefferson was acquired in a draft-night deal with the Rockets. Weeks after that trade, the Nets pulled off another one, sending Stephon Marbury to the Suns and getting Kidd back.

The Nets played in the next two Finals, losing to the Lakers and Spurs and turning the fortunes of a team that was considered a laughingstock.

Though the Nets are 33-47, there's no reason to think they will fall back into the abyss they were in before the Jefferson-Kidd era. Jefferson seems to be entering his prime, averaging more than 22 points a game, and Vince Carter is still one of the top offensive threats in the league.

The 25-year-old Harris has played well since coming to New Jersey and is 10 years younger than Kidd, while second-year pro Josh Boone, who became a full-time starter on Dec.18, has given the Nets reason to believe that he will be a strong contributor for years.

As far as any more significant changes go, Jefferson had no ideas, suggesting that since he could be one of the players sent packing, he'd rather not give his opinion.

"Your guess is as good as mine," Jefferson said when asked what changes may occur. "Three years ago I was surprised I was here, so who am I to judge the direction of the team? I don't try to do other people's jobs."

With two games left, Tuesday against the Bobcats and Wednesday at Boston, Lawrence Frank said he will coach hard to the end.

"I think your approach as a team is to win the game," he said.
 
Rollie_Fingaz said:
MILWAUKEE - Richard Jefferson is the only player remaining from the Nets' back-to-back Finals appearances and the years when they were a perennial contender in the East.

Those days are gone. And Jefferson was in no mood to look back before Saturday night's 111-98 win over the Bucks.


The Nets will miss the playoffs for the first time since the 2000-01 season, the year before Jefferson was acquired in a draft-night deal with the Rockets. Weeks after that trade, the Nets pulled off another one, sending Stephon Marbury to the Suns and getting Kidd back.

The Nets played in the next two Finals, losing to the Lakers and Spurs and turning the fortunes of a team that was considered a laughingstock.
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They made the finals (twice) with SCOTT as the coach. He took over a shitty team (with a very bad Steph infection) and came within having a real live big man of winning an NBA championship. Then, Thorn fired him over some rift with Kidd and they've literally regressed every season since then.....Went from being a TITLE CONTENDER to being a joke


Meanwhile, Scott took over a team that was DEAD LAST in the league in every category, that didn't even have a home court and now they have one of the best records in the NBA.


Good job Rod. In this convoluted, ass-backwards society, give yourself a raise.
:hmm:
 
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