Do you think that waterboarding is torture?

Black A. Camus

Rising Star
BGOL Investor
President Bush's nominee, Michael Mukasey, who is to replace Alberto Gonzalez as attornery general looks like he might not pass his senate confirmation hearings because he won't declare that waterboarding is torture.
The Senate feels, as do many Americans, that torture is illegal and un-American. They don't want to nominate another attorney general who condones the use of torture as a viable tool to gather information on terrorism from suspected terrorists

I wasn't exactly sure what waterboarding was until I saw this clip.

http://current.com/items/86509751_getting_waterboarded_uncut_version

After I watched this clip, I came to the conclusion that any information obtained from someone subjected to this procedure is unreliable. This is torture, and anyone subjected to this would do anything to make it stop. Do you think that waterboarding is torture, and do you feel that torture is justifiable against the 'war on terror'?
 
Waterboarding is torture. Period. Some people have died from it, so it's not merely a technique that makes people uncomfortable and want to talk. It's a technique that can kill and has killed.
 
Of course it's torture but the question is, should waterboarding be abandoned? Has it produced reliable information in the past? If it has, I say no, it should not be abandoned. If it has not then it's pointless form of intel gathering.

-VG
 
Of course it's torture but the question is, should waterboarding be abandoned? Has it produced reliable information in the past? If it has, I say no, it should not be abandoned. If it has not then it's pointless form of intel gathering.

-VG

Prove your statement. Post something with sources. There is no evidence that any water boarding has produced any information from any so called enemy combatant that has stopped or prevented any so called terrorist action. If so educate me.
 
Of course it's torture but the question is, should waterboarding be abandoned? Has it produced reliable information in the past? If it has, I say no, it should not be abandoned. If it has not then it's pointless form of intel gathering.

-VG

The problem with torture in general is that is produces unreliable information. If someone thinks that they are going to die they will confess to anything. Confessions under such circumstances are virtually meaningless. Secondly, do we really want to worsen how the rest of the world views America? It's bad enough that a lot of people in different countries view America as an evil empire. Now, we will be seen as an evil empire that tortures people who our government accuses with out a trial, or proof.
 
I wasn't exactly sure what waterboarding was until I saw this clip.
After watching the video, I couldn't tell whether its torture or not. Obviously, the video was 'staged' and the guy on the board knew what was going on and what to expect. Hence, I couldn't tell anything from this video.

Do you have any video of "Actual" water boardings ?????

QueEx
 
The problem with torture in general is that is produces unreliable information. If someone thinks that they are going to die they will confess to anything. Confessions under such circumstances are virtually meaningless. Secondly, do we really want to worsen how the rest of the world views America? It's bad enough that a lot of people in different countries view America as an evil empire. Now, we will be seen as an evil empire that tortures people who our government accuses with out a trial, or proof.
What If: the result can be made more reliable? That is, what if most of the answers to most of the questions are known to to the interrogators; and, what if the person interrogated does not know that the interrogators know the answers to 95% of the questions? In that situation, the interrogators might have a pretty good idea whether the person interrogated is just trying to save his ass, or, perhaps, being straight. Of course, on the questions that the interrogators do not already know the answers, we may never know whether the interrogated was lying or not.

(1) But, what if ???

(2) Are you saying that Waterboarding should not be used in "Any" circumstance ???

(3) Better still, should torture NEVER BE USED ???

QueEx
 
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The problem with torture in general is that is produces unreliable information. If someone thinks that they are going to die they will confess to anything. Confessions under such circumstances are virtually meaningless. Secondly, do we really want to worsen how the rest of the world views America? It's bad enough that a lot of people in different countries view America as an evil empire. Now, we will be seen as an evil empire that tortures people who our government accuses with out a trial, or proof.

Those towel heads don't feel a connection to this life anyway so what are we talking about? But I won't dismiss outright it's value. Especially in light of the fact that even in this court system, a lot of jokers make deals when they think getting out of prison in 30 years is too damn long. And they don't have anything close to torture to make that call and that information they give up is probably just as unreliable.

As far as how others view america, I'm like this...when those people quit coming here then I'll worry. I spend a lot of my week in airports and those international flights are still overbooked. So I'm not swayed by the media hype that we are viewed in a light so bad we no longer matter. And if by some stroke of luck Rodham Cankles gets in, you'll see a big shift on how CNN reports major love for America.

-VG
 
As I have said, republicans/conservatives hate government. Why should the abide by the laws. Conservatives/republicans are like cows, when it rains they all huddle under the same tree without understanding that if lighting strikes the tree they are all dead. They refuse to think independently, their ideology over rides logic and reality. If the GOP news letter says something they repeat it, with out question.


source: Washington Post.com


Waterboarding Historically Controversial
In 1947, the U.S. Called It a War Crime; in 1968, It Reportedly Caused an Investigation


By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, October 5, 2006; Page A17

Key senators say Congress has outlawed one of the most notorious detainee interrogation techniques -- "waterboarding," in which a prisoner feels near drowning. But the White House will not go that far, saying it would be wrong to tell terrorists which practices they might face.

Inside the CIA, waterboarding is cited as the technique that got Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the prime plotter of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, to begin to talk and provide information -- though "not all of it reliable," a former senior intelligence official said.

Waterboarding is variously characterized as a powerful tool and a symbol of excess in the nation's fight against terrorists. But just what is waterboarding, and where does it fit in the arsenal of coercive interrogation techniques?

On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a front-page photograph of a U.S. soldier supervising the questioning of a captured North Vietnamese soldier who is being held down as water was poured on his face while his nose and mouth were covered by a cloth. The picture, taken four days earlier near Da Nang, had a caption that said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk."

The article said the practice was "fairly common" in part because "those who practice it say it combines the advantages of being unpleasant enough to make people talk while still not causing permanent injury."

The picture reportedly led to an Army investigation.

Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor," Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) told his colleagues last Thursday during the debate on military commissions legislation. "We punished people with 15 years of hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II," he said.


A CIA interrogation training manual declassified 12 years ago, "KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation -- July 1963," outlined a procedure similar to waterboarding. Subjects were suspended in tanks of water wearing blackout masks that allowed for breathing. Within hours, the subjects felt tension and so-called environmental anxiety. "Providing relief for growing discomfort, the questioner assumes a benevolent role," the manual states.

The KUBARK manual was the product of more than a decade of research and testing, refining lessons learned from the Korean War, where U.S. airmen were subjected to a new type of "touchless torture" until they confessed to a bogus plan to use biological weapons against the North Koreans.

Used to train new interrogators, the handbook presented "basic information about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation situation." When it comes to torture, however, the handbook advised that "the threat to inflict pain . . . can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain."

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

After the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, the interrogation world changed. Low-level Taliban and Arab fighters captured in Afghanistan provided little information, the former intelligence official said. When higher-level al-Qaeda operatives were captured, CIA interrogators sought authority to use more coercive methods.

These were cleared not only at the White House but also by the Justice Department and briefed to senior congressional officials, according to a statement released last month by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. Waterboarding was one of the approved techniques.

When questions began to be raised last year about the handling of high-level detainees and Congress passed legislation barring torture, the handful of CIA interrogators and senior officials who authorized their actions became concerned that they might lose government support.

Passage last month of military commissions legislation provided retroactive legal protection to those who carried out waterboarding and other coercive interrogation techniques.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm
 
I don't think it is torture. If somebody plotted something like 9/11 on American soil, they would be strapped down and pumped with rock salt like Tim McVeigh when they got caught. The legal system threatens the dealth penalty with perps like Terry Nichols to extract information about a crime, is this torture now?. I would like to see information extracted from a terrorist the same way a U.S. citizen face with the threat of death.

The guy they captured in Pakistan who they waterboarded will probably sit in a prison the rest of his life and not face death. Why should terrorist be treated better than U.S. Citizens if they commit the same crime?

I don't even know if Bin Laden can be put to death in this country since his conspiracy "crime" took place on foreign soil and he is not an American citizien.
 
This is so FN stupid. :angry: Who the hell does not know this method of getting information IS torture. This is no FN rocket science?!?!?

[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/v/-KSMcXdPUdA&rel=1[/FLASH]

That the Republicans forced the discussion to shift to the "definition" of torture is freaking genius on their part - again. It's like Clinton saying he did not have "sexual relations" with Monica. :hmm: This is why our dollar sucks, bin Laden is still free and we are in Iraq (amongst other things). Thes Dems are FN cowards...
 
If you compare waterboarding to what would happen to them in the legal system here (death penalty), they are getting it easy. Give them a choice between waterboarding and what an American citizen would face committing the same act in this country. What do you think they would choose?
 
(3) Better still, should torture NEVER BE USED ???

QueEx

This comedy of errors involves a suspicious, criminal opening act (torture via waterboarding), thus giving birth to the second error (unreliable intelligence), and then ending with the final error in this comedy of errors (acting upon the questionable information obtained). The system is flawed.
 
This comedy of errors involves a suspicious, criminal opening act (torture via waterboarding), thus giving birth to the second error (unreliable intelligence), and then ending with the final error in this comedy of errors (acting upon the questionable information obtained). The system is flawed.
You know, you 'might' be right. But, what were the comedy of errors ??? And, what information that was obtained via 'waterboarding' did we act upon; and how ???

QueEx
 
If you compare waterboarding to what would happen to them in the legal system here (death penalty), they are getting it easy. Give them a choice between waterboarding and what an American citizen would face committing the same act in this country. What do you think they would choose?

what makes you think they cant recieve the same fate?
 
War Criminal Dick Cheney admits authorizing water boarding suspects

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CIA Torture Tactics Under Bush

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CNN: 'Some of the Most Shocking Legal Documents I've Ever Seen'
 
Re: CIA Torture Tactics Under Bush

That is how you get it done, BTK Al-Qaeda. :lol::lol::lol:
 
The Torture Timeline

This is a pretty detailed timeline of the information that's out now.

2001

September 11: Afghanistan-based terrorist organization al Qaeda attacks the United States. Nearly 3,000 people die.

September 14: A congressional resolution authorizes U.S. President George W. Bush to use "all necessary and appropriate force" to combat the countries and groups behind 9/11. Vice President Dick Cheney promises that the United States will use "any means at our disposal" to combat terrorism.

September 16: In an interview on NBC's Meet the Press, Cheney says the government will need to work through "the dark side." He continues: "We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion. ...It's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal."

September 17: Bush gives the CIA the authority to kill, capture, and detain al Qaeda operatives. The CIA lays plans for secret overseas prisons and special interrogations.

September 25: Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) lawyer John Yoo submits a memo to the White House advising that Bush may preemptively wage war anywhere in the world, against any country or organization that harbors or supports any terrorist group, linked to the 9/11 attacks or not.

November 13: Bush issues an executive order declaring that the United States will try any foreigners who commit acts of terrorism or harbor terrorists via military commission, under rules written by the executive branch.

December: The Department of Defense general counsel's office solicits information on detainee "exploitation" from the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA), which advises on counterinterrogation techniques known as SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape).

2002​

January 11: The first 20 prisoners picked up in Afghanistan arrive in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

February 7: Bush issues an executive order denying Taliban and al Qaeda detainees the protections afforded under the Geneva Conventions, saying that the United States needs "new thinking in the law of war." Article 3 of the conventions prohibits "cruel treatment and torture" and the "humiliating and degrading treatment" of detainees.

February 19: On behalf of British and Australian Guantánamo detainees, the Center for Constitutional Rights, a New York-based NGO, files habeas corpus petitions in the District of Columbia's circuit court.
http://foreignpolicy.advertserve.com/servlet/view/banner/image/zone?zid=4&pid=0&position=1

March 28: The CIA and Pakistani intelligence service capture a top al Qaeda operative, Abu Zubayda. Zubayda is shot multiple times while attempting to evade capture.

April: A document on SERE techniques is circulated to JPRA and Department of Defense staffers.

May: The CIA asks senior White House officials, including National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, to consider the possibility of using rough interrogation tactics, such as waterboarding, in interrogations.

May 8: José Padilla, who allegedly planned a "dirty bomb" attack, is arrested in Chicago; he is currently serving a 17-year sentence in a supermax prison. He and two other combatants were held incommunicado in a Navy brig for years following their detention.

July: Richard Shiffrin, a counsel in the Department of Defense, inquires about SERE techniques -- initially designed to help U.S. soldiers captured abroad. Members of the CIA learn SERE techniques in September.

July 17: Rice meets with CIA Director George Tenet. She says the CIA may go ahead with its planned interrogation of Zubayda, if the Justice Department signs off.

July 26: Attorney General John Ashcroft concludes that waterboarding is lawful, allowing the CIA to go ahead and use the technique on Zubayda.

August 1: Jay Bybee, then head of the OLC and now a federal judge, sends a memo to John Rizzo, counsel to the CIA, about torture and Zubayda. He says 10 escalating techniques, leading up to waterboarding, do not constitute torture and may be used.

August 1: In another memo to White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, largely written by Yoo and commonly called the "Bybee Memo," the OLC concludes that only acts which result in pain equivalent to "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death," constitute torture; all lesser abuse is legal. Yale Law School Dean Harold Koh called it "perhaps the most clearly erroneous legal opinion I have ever read."

August: Zubayda is waterboarded more than 80 times over the course of the month.

September 25: David Addington, counsel to Cheney, and other high-ranking administration lawyers travel to Guantánamo to review procedures and conditions.

October 7: Bush gives a speech making the case for the link between al Qaeda and Iraq. "We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases," he says. The information was false, given by a detainee under intense interrogation.
New reports suggest that the White House pressured interrogators to elicit evidence of a link between Iraq and al Qaeda, leading to more and harsher "enhanced interrogations." No such link ever existed.

November: In the "Salt Pit," a secret, CIA-run prison in Kabul, Afghanistan, guards strip a detainee, chain him outdoors, and leave him there. He dies of hypothermia.

December 2: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld approves coercive interrogation techniques, including "inducing stress by use of detainee's fears (e.g. dogs)," for Guantánamo. He jots on a memo, "I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to four hours?"

2003-2009 Timeline cont...
Have at it...
 
reporter takes water boarding to see if its torture

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Here's the problem with the definition of torture. Anything can be considered torture by that definition.

I believe that there should be levels of torture, not just a standard definition that should be used universally. For example:

Water boarding should be on the lowest level of torture due to the fact that, for one, the likelihood of a death in that situation is less than likely.

Electric charges, and shit like that should be on the higher end. *the end that should be ban in silence*
 
U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Concludes

U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Concludes
By SCOTT SHANE
Published: April 16, 2013

WASHINGTON — A nonpartisan, independent review of interrogation and detention programs in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks concludes that “it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.

The sweeping, 577-page report says that while brutality has occurred in every American war, there never before had been “the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after 9/11 directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody.” The study, by an 11-member panel convened by the Constitution Project, a legal research and advocacy group, is to be released on Tuesday morning.

Debate over the coercive interrogation methods used by the administration of President George W. Bush has often broken down on largely partisan lines. The Constitution Project’s task force on detainee treatment, led by two former members of Congress with experience in the executive branch — a Republican, Asa Hutchinson, and a Democrat, James R. Jones — seeks to produce a stronger national consensus on the torture question.

While the task force did not have access to classified records, it is the most ambitious independent attempt to date to assess the detention and interrogation programs. A separate 6,000-page report on the Central Intelligence Agency’s record by the Senate Intelligence Committee, based exclusively on agency records, rather than interviews, remains classified.

“As long as the debate continues, so too does the possibility that the United States could again engage in torture,” the report says.

The use of torture, the report concludes, has “no justification” and “damaged the standing of our nation, reduced our capacity to convey moral censure when necessary and potentially increased the danger to U.S. military personnel taken captive.” The task force found “no firm or persuasive evidence” that these interrogation methods produced valuable information that could not have been obtained by other means. While “a person subjected to torture might well divulge useful information,” much of the information obtained by force was not reliable, the report says.

Interrogation and abuse at the C.I.A.’s so-called black sites, the Guantánamo Bay prison in Cuba and war-zone detention centers, have been described in considerable detail by the news media and in declassified documents, though the Constitution Project report adds many new details.

It confirms a report by Human Rights Watch that one or more Libyan militants were waterboarded by the C.I.A., challenging the agency’s longtime assertion that only three Al Qaeda prisoners were subjected to the near-drowning technique. It includes a detailed account by Albert J. Shimkus Jr., then a Navy captain who ran a hospital for detainees at the Guantánamo Bay prison, of his own disillusionment when he discovered what he considered to be the unethical mistreatment of prisoners.

But the report’s main significance may be its attempt to assess what the United States government did in the years after 2001 and how it should be judged. The C.I.A. not only waterboarded prisoners, but slammed them into walls, chained them in uncomfortable positions for hours, stripped them of clothing and kept them awake for days on end.

The question of whether those methods amounted to torture is a historically and legally momentous issue that has been debated for more than a decade inside and outside the government. The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel wrote a series of legal opinions from 2002 to 2005 concluding that the methods were not torture if used under strict rules; all the memos were later withdrawn. News organizations have wrestled with whether to label the brutal methods unequivocally as torture in the face of some government officials’ claims that they were not.

In addition, the United States is a signatory to the international Convention Against Torture, which requires the prompt investigation of allegations of torture and the compensation of its victims.

Like the still-secret Senate interrogation report, the Constitution Project study was initiated after President Obama decided in 2009 not to support a national commission to investigate the post-9/11 counterterrorism programs, as proposed by Senator Patrick J. Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, and others. Mr. Obama said then that he wanted to “look forward, not backward.” Aides have said he feared that his own policy agenda might get sidetracked in a battle over his predecessor’s programs.

The panel studied the treatment of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and at the C.I.A’s secret prisons. Staff members, including the executive director, Neil A. Lewis, a former reporter for The New York Times, traveled to multiple detention sites and interviewed dozens of former American and foreign officials, as well as former detainees.

Mr. Hutchinson, who served in the Bush administration as chief of the Drug Enforcement Administration and under secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, said he “took convincing” on the torture issue. But after the panel’s nearly two years of research, he said he had no doubts about what the United States did.

“This has not been an easy inquiry for me, because I know many of the players,” Mr. Hutchinson said in an interview. He said he thought everyone involved in decisions, from Mr. Bush down, had acted in good faith, in a desperate effort to try to prevent more attacks.

“But I just think we learn from history,” Mr. Hutchinson said. “It’s incredibly important to have an accurate account not just of what happened but of how decisions were made.”

He added, “The United States has a historic and unique character, and part of that character is that we do not torture.”

The panel found that the United States violated its international legal obligations by engineering “enforced disappearances” and secret detentions. It questions recidivism figures published by the Defense Intelligence Agency for Guantánamo detainees who have been released, saying they conflict with independent reviews.

It describes in detail the ethical compromise of government lawyers who offered “acrobatic” advice to justify brutal interrogations and medical professionals who helped direct and monitor them. And it reveals an internal debate at the International Committee of the Red Cross over whether the organization should speak publicly about American abuses; advocates of going public lost the fight, delaying public exposure for months, the report finds.

Mr. Jones, a former ambassador to Mexico, noted that his panel called for the release of a declassified version of the Senate report and said he believed that the two reports, one based on documents and the other largely on interviews, would complement each other in documenting what he called a grave series of policy errors.

“I had not recognized the depths of torture in some cases,” Mr. Jones said. “We lost our compass.”

While the Constitution Project report covers mainly the Bush years, it is critical of some Obama administration policies, especially what it calls excessive secrecy. It says that keeping the details of rendition and torture from the public “cannot continue to be justified on the basis of national security” and urges the administration to stop citing state secrets to block lawsuits by former detainees.

The report calls for the revision of the Army Field Manual on interrogation to eliminate Appendix M, which it says would permit an interrogation for 40 consecutive hours, and to restore an explicit ban on stress positions and sleep manipulation.

The core of the report, however, may be an appendix: a detailed 22-page legal and historical analysis that explains why the task force concluded that what the United States did was torture. It offers dozens of legal cases in which similar treatment was prosecuted in the United States or denounced as torture by American officials when used by other countries.

The report compares the torture of detainees to the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. “What was once generally taken to be understandable and justifiable behavior,” the report says, “can later become a case of historical regret.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/w...san-review-concludes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
The establishment "official paper" New York Times has been timid in publishing articles that illuminate the BuShit camarilla's crimes, violations of domestic & international laws. The Times was complicit in aiding the BuShit gang as it lied to the public about the "weapons-of-mass-destruction" rationale for invading and occupying Iraq; remember the Judith Miller articles. The Times aided BuShit in his 2004 run for a second term when they decided to not publish the fact that BuShit crime family, in violation of domestic was illegally wiretapping millions of Americans without a warrant. The Times withheld the publication about BuShit law breaking, until the November 2003 election was over and BuShit narrowly won another term. So much for the myth of the "liberal media".

Watch the film below. It aired ONCE on PBS.




<iframe src="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/torturingdemocracy/program/index1.html" width="1000" height="900">
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"TORTURING DEMOCRACY"

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/torturingdemocracy/program/index1.html

Download Film - Video: MPEG4 Video 560x272 29.97fps 749kbps -watch on IPad, Android Tablet, ITouch, IPhone, Android Smart Phone, Computer
Code:
https://www.rapidshare.com/files/1358805240/Torturing_Democracy_PBS_2008.mp4




The film documentary "Torturing Democracy" aired once on PBS stations in 2008 and then literally disappeared. PBS was so afraid of this scrupulously researched film, consisting of on-the-record interviews with U.S. citizens and military personal who actually witnessed the Cheney-BuShit-Rumsfeld-Rice illegally sanctioned torture of hundreds of Arab prisoners - which resulted in more than 50 deaths, -that many PBS stations refused to air the film. Innocent Arab men, who where misidentified & snatched by U.S. 'black-ops' forces from their homes- who survived as long as 4 years of torture in Afghanistan & Gitmo are interviewed in this film and they describe their harrowing ordeal and the continuing road back to sanity they are traveling. Film footage chronicling Cheney-BuShit-Rumsfeld-Rice authorized, U.S. torture & barbarism, seen hundreds of times in every country in the world except the U.S. is contained in this documentary. With the 2012 U.S. elections just ended, we should not quickly forget that if Romney was elected, the same ideologues who stood with and supported BuShit & company in their zeal and preference for torture would have re-initiated the Cheney-BuShit-Rumsfeld-Rice torture program with full vigor.




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