The best way to argue with War supporters...

[nyyyyce]

- don’t!

It has been my experience that when I tell war supporters the truth about this war I am confronted by a lot of anger. Usually, the person(s) I am talking to take one thing I say and harp on it for the whole conversation or they tell me how cynical I am for not ‘believing” what I am told by the administration and the press. I have recently stopped arguing the “truth” and started sending out “facts” because the facts are not debatable.

I am posting 3 videos that I now use to begin a conversation with anyone who wants to have a real discussion about the intentional “misinformation” (not lies – you sound less offensive if you don’t use the term “lies”) that has been distributed about the lead up to this war.

The first clip talks about how the media is a willing flunky to the government spin machine. How 9/11 and Iraq are still being subtly linked together to confuse the masses (and the person you are debating with). The usual stuff. They, the people behind the machine, are methodical and calculatedly deceptive with their tactics. The second chronicles the administrations flip-flops on the information they gave out pre and post invasion (including Condie and CP).

If you send these out before your discussion and you still hear the terms/phrases: liberal bias, you don’t want us to win, cut and run – then you cut and run. Move on to the next person. You are not going to have an intelligent conversation, let alone, convince them of the merits of your position. I hope this helps someone in future discussions.



Pro War Campaign:


[FLASH]http://youtube.com/watch/v/dv1tD0Z1Qjo[/FLASH]


http://youtube.com/watch?v=dv1tD0Z1Qjo



The "misinformation":


[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Hz-6A59qzAU[/FLASH]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-6A59qzAU



The "misinformation":


Edgy version by Simon Pegg of "Shawn of the Dead" / "Hot Fuzz" fame


[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/OjFrezxIMAQ[/FLASH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjFrezxIMAQ

 

[TheBigOne]

Good study. My problem is with all of the elected officials that voted to go to war way back then because they said they were told bad information by the Administration and all of the media that published that bullshit like it was fact. At best, they were Administration supporters. At worst, they were the stupidest muhfuhkahs eva... HELLO Hillary...

 

[mk23666]

You know ... I look at the way these people who are President grow older and grayer during their terms and I think it has to do with the lies they tell. Look at what happened to Tony Snow. He must have thought that he was gonna be in the know and help infuence things ... and maybe he was and did ... but look at what it did to him. That stress from lying all the time lowered his immunity and damn if he don't look like Death warmed over.

 

[mk23666]

Too bad impeachment was wasted on Bill Clinton (cause now it just looks like sour grapes) cause if ever there was a President who deserved it this is the one!

 

[Simply_Black]

Yeah..... I've stopped arguing with supporters of the war some time ago. What the point?...... because how do you have a intelligent 2-way discussion with someone who wishes to remain 'blind' to solid facts and figures and choose only to see the invasion from a 'one-sided' view rather than to open thier eyes and take into consideration the entire 'picture' as it is realistically.

 

[mk23666]

I wish that reporters/interviewers/moderators when told that they are wrong or mistaken or misinterpreting or whatever deflective is used to saddle their questioning would just play the tape of that person actually saying what they are asking them about.

Hell, if you already researched the topics and wrote the questions down you want to ask I'm sure you could take with you the source materials and expose them for the lying sacks they are.

 

[PanzerBob]

While I don't support the war in Iraq, I do support the soldiers who are there. This where I have a problem the anti-war types, a lot of them condemn the soldiers for the governments fuck ups. Our Armies to go war at he behest of our governments, don't like it vote them out. There of course other opinions, one of which is always touted as a reason you guys have the right to bear arms.

Once Saddam was captured, that when the Armed Forces should have withdrawn. IMHO.

 

[nyyyyce]

Good study. My problem is with all of the elected officials that voted to go to war way back then because they said they were told bad information by the Administration and all of the media that published that bullshit like it was fact. At best, they were Administration supporters. At worst, they were the stupidest muhfuhkahs eva... HELLO Hillary...

I used to get heated too. I then realized that all the misinformation was intentional and deliberate. I can’t stand loosing a game of tick-tack-toe, let alone, losing my right to have access to real information. The manipulation part got to me so I now channel it into sharing what I know.

With that said, I really don’t think that the majority of the people you or I talk to are stupid. I think, no, know, from reading and having it confirmed with the first clip I posted, that my mind is being conditioned to accept lies. It is done overtly and covertly by the people who are supposed to be defending me. I had to desire to think independently. These people don’t understand that there is a fight to be fought. They are lazy and the establishment knows it.

What the current administration and the media are doing is intellectual collusion. There is a private agreement between them to defraud us of information that will allow the masses to form real opinions about issues. It’s illegal in sports, but it has been allowed to be “ok” in politics. I say work on who you can and pass good info on to who is willing to fight with you.

As far as Hillary and the rest of them – they knew. No questions asked. It is impossible for me to have the clip of Condie and Colin talking about how Iraq poses no threat in 2001 and you then authorize the president to go to war?!?!? Let’s not forget Cheney’s “quagmire in Iraq” tape from the mid 90’s. Why am I the only one who knows this information?!?! They do not use anything that you or I could easily find on youtube to battle “the machine” now. They were cowards then and now. Then, they could not stand up because they did not want to appear to be anti-war, now they don’t want to be perceived as anti-troop?!?!?!? They are politicians and need to say what is necessary to keep that seat in Congress or to move up to President.

 

[water]

While I don't support the war in Iraq, I do support the soldiers who are there. This where I have a problem the anti-war types, a lot of them condemn the soldiers for the governments fuck ups. Our Armies to go war at he behest of our governments, don't like it vote them out. There of course other opinions, one of which is always touted as a reason you guys have the right to bear arms.

Once Saddam was captured, that when the Armed Forces should have withdrawn. IMHO.

You support the soldiers who are there doing what?????


Feeding babies and giving away toys?


They are taking lives................


1 American life= 1 Iraqi life


Real talk.

 

[blackmouth]

a white lady i work with WAS a HUUUUUUGE war & bush supporter... until her son in the nat'l guard was called to duty.

now, she's crying every cot damn day cause he's in one of those "hot" provinces in iraq.

and damn near every letter or message he sends home is about how FUCKED UP things are over there.

now, she's a HUUUUUGE hater of bush & wants to know why we're over there.

what a stupid, hypocritical bitch.

i've been asking her since day #1 of the war: "why are we going over there. what will we gain?"

to this day, all i get is this look:

 

[water]

a white lady i work with WAS a HUUUUUUGE war & bush supporter... until her son in the nat'l guard was called to duty.

now, she's crying every cot damn day cause he's in one of those "hot" provinces in iraq.

and damn near every letter or message he sends home is about how FUCKED UP things are over there.

now, she's a HUUUUUGE hater of bush & wants to know why we're over there.

what a stupid, hypocritical bitch.

i've been asking her since day #1 of the war: "why are we going over there. what will we gain?"

to this day, all i get is this look:

Man.......... that is America for you.


Fuck everyone until it is your turn for sympathy.


From the white house to the crack house, same shit.........

 

[nyyyyce]

While I don't support the war in Iraq, I do support the soldiers who are there. This where I have a problem the anti-war types, a lot of them condemn the soldiers for the governments fuck ups. Our Armies to go war at he behest of our governments, don't like it vote them out. There of course other opinions, one of which is always touted as a reason you guys have the right to bear arms.

Once Saddam was captured, that when the Armed Forces should have withdrawn. IMHO.

No disrespect intended, but that is blatantly not true. I am anti-war as they come and know many others like me. In my whole crew there has not been one person that has disparaged the troops. We can only try to understand the commitment, conviction, courage and selflessness that it takes to do what they do. I, as an objector, am appalled by the fact that the same President who said to the Iraqi factions that want to see US troops dead, and I quote: “Bring it on”! I am disturbed that the same president, who constantly says he wants what’s best for the troops did not send them off with the proper armor plated Humvee’s and, on his watch, allowed the horrible conditions @ Walter Reed to exist for the returning wounded.

The nagging complaint that I have is that people who support the troops are NEVER angered by what the government has done to continually put the troops in harms way. How does that happen - constantly?!?!? Do you all not see Time and Newsweek articles with cover story’s about “The Broken” military. Do you not see the reports on the off -the-chart suicide and divorce rates being achieved in this conflict? Where is the focused consternation to address these issue that directly impact the troops??!?! The only people that I hear that point these “FACTS” out are me and people like me who use this information to pad our stance on why the war is so egregious.

Let me make it real clear: there are virtually no people that are against the war that are against the troops. This administration sees to that, but no one consistently points that out to people like you so that you are not confused about how we really appreciate the soldiers.

 

[nyyyyce]

a white lady i work with WAS a HUUUUUUGE war & bush supporter... until her son in the nat'l guard was called to duty.

now, she's crying every cot damn day cause he's in one of those "hot" provinces in iraq.

and damn near every letter or message he sends home is about how FUCKED UP things are over there.

now, she's a HUUUUUGE hater of bush & wants to know why we're over there.

what a stupid, hypocritical bitch.

i've been asking her since day #1 of the war: "why are we going over there. what will we gain?"

to this day, all i get is this look:

This is what really gets me about the misinformation machine. They don’t care that you come to your senses – late. They just take your kids, our resources, our money and use it until they reach their goal. That woman, if not so lazy minded, should have come to this same conclusion before her kid got shipped off. Too little too late now.

 

[LordLightningNuts]

wow....

umm..

someone please post some porn and plug me back into the matrix

 

[nyyyyce]

wow....

umm..

someone please post some porn and plug me back into the matrix

If it were only that easy....

 

[Steelwill2006]

4,181
Total Fatalities

 

[HandsSolo2K5]

Sigh............ I have been screaming this shit since 2003 ..... that nothing good was going to come out of this war ............. and Nothing will....... It was a horrible idea from its conception

 

[nyyyyce]

4,181
Total Fatalities

Again, if it were only that easy...

your numbers do not include foreign industry contractors and contracted mercenaries like Blackwater et al. The numbers are not "officially" given out. I have "heard" that it is closer to 5,000 - 5,500.

Besides, the lives lost are but a "small price" to pay for the chaos we find our selves in now. Death, schmeath.....


[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/sH6wcknynKU[/FLASH]



Boehner and the Rebulican block that votes with the pres don't care about our "numbers" or the families left in shambles that are attached to those "numbers"

 

[Steelwill2006]

Again, if it were only that easy...

your numbers do not include foreign industry contractors and contracted mercenaries like Blackwater et al. The numbers are not "officially" given out. I have "heard" that it is closer to 5,000 - 5,500.

Besides, the lives lost are but a "small price" to pay for the chaos we find our selves in now. Death, schmeath.....


[FLASH]http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/sH6wcknynKU[/FLASH]



Boehner and the Rebulican block that votes with the pres don't care about our "numbers" or the families left in shambles that are attached to those "numbers"

If we're to include the lives of contractors, then why not the Iraqis as well, the kurds, Iranians etc.... the number is gonna be much higher. But what is important is the number of U.S forces in Iraq. Once we leave, the contractors will have the option of staying depending on their business dealings with the American-Iraqi Govrnment. We own them. Just like we own KUWAIT. The Kuwaitis are indebted to the BUSH family. Arabs are very loyal, and that is evident.

 

[Hey Julian!]

Damn steelwilll you startin to redeem yourself after the reveal and all..........Still watchin' yo
cracka ass though.

 

[actinanass]

Good study. My problem is with all of the elected officials that voted to go to war way back then because they said they were told bad information by the Administration and all of the media that published that bullshit like it was fact. At best, they were Administration supporters. At worst, they were the stupidest muhfuhkahs eva... HELLO Hillary...

hmmm, soooo I guess Al Gore was part of that "stupid" Administration...

*reference to the so called "misinformation" of 1992*

 

[Steelwill2006]

Damn steelwilll you startin to redeem yourself after the reveal and all..........Still watchin' yo
cracka ass though.

That's fair but I'd also like to say that when it comes to the turmoil in Iraq, I have a keen outlook on the most important factors that need to be addressed because I've been there. I think that a lot of military vets can back me up when I say that the most experienced does not not necessarily mean the best in experience. And what that means is, although I only have less than 10 years of active duty service, I am far more knowledgeable than any retired Colonel of the Vietnam era could ever be. This is a much different fight.

 

[actinanass]

4,181
Total Fatalities

compare that to Vietnam, and Korea. Then get back at me.

People forget that this war has been politicize on the most part.

Tell me ONE thing our congress has passed that benefits the American people as a whole. I'm sick of all this "the war was a lie" bullshit. How about cutting the tax on GAS. How about cutting some of these high ass taxes we are paying for bitches DOPEMAN fuck? How about put away this debate for the welfare of OUR TROOPS? The fact that we have presidential candidates calling a General a liar, even before he gives his assessment of the situation. Yet this is suppose to be the party that suppose to be out for MY well being.

 

[Steelwill2006]

compare that to Vietnam, and Korea. Then get back at me.

People forget that this war has been politicize on the most part.

Tell me ONE thing our congress has passed that benefits the American people as a whole. I'm sick of all this "the war was a lie" bullshit. How about cutting the tax on GAS. How about cutting some of these high ass taxes we are paying for bitches DOPEMAN fuck? How about put away this debate for the welfare of OUR TROOPS? The fact that we have presidential candidates calling a General a liar, even before he gives his assessment of the situation. Yet this is suppose to be the party that suppose to be out for MY well being.

As a veteran having completed 2 tours in Iraq as an infantryman conducting raids, and being shot at. Comparing what I've been through to the experiences of any 11B of the Vietnam war is disrespectful. I will not and cannot do it. I've never made comparisons between either conflicts, so do not bring up the past. I'm speaking on what is relevant today. You sound like one of those Westpoint graduates without any time in a line unit. When you earn your CIB, come holla at me pimpin. Until then, STFU.

This post aint about fucking taxes dude. You wanna discuss those issues, make a fucking thread about it. The General is full of shit. These war analyst on CNN haven't seen a battle field since Desert fuckin Storm.

 

[nyyyyce]

If we're to include the lives of contractors, then why not the Iraqis as well, the kurds, Iranians etc.... the number is gonna be much higher. But what is important is the number of U.S forces in Iraq. Once we leave, the contractors will have the option of staying depending on their business dealings with the American-Iraqi Govrnment. We own them. Just like we own KUWAIT. The Kuwaitis are indebted to the BUSH family. Arabs are very loyal, and that is evident.

Hey, I have no ill will over the numbers. However, we do have several Merc company’s over there authorized to fight for the US. They are paid for and contracted by the US to be armed combatants. They get killed and get wounded - regularly. It is disingenuous for us to have a real conversation about real death totals without mentioning them. The government doesn't, but I will because they are a fighting force. More importantly, the selective acknowledgment - then omission - of their contribution is very suspect to me alone apparently .

Do you remember this:


12 U.S. troops die in Iraq; Spain leaving
FALLUJAH: Brutal ambush might have been avoided
Colin Freeman, Chronicle Foreign Service
Monday, April 19, 2004


(04-19) 04:00 PDT Baghdad -- The brutal slaying and mutilation of four private U.S. guards as they drove through the flashpoint town of Fallujah last month shocked the world and sparked an escalation of the bloody conflict in Iraq. Yet as U.S. Marines besiege the overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim city in a bid to punish the attackers, one uncomfortable question remains: Could the tragedy have been avoided?

In the past three weeks, The Chronicle has delved into the background of the fateful decision that led Blackwater Security, a respected and experienced U.S. security firm, to escort a food convoy through the most dangerous town in Iraq.

Disturbing allegations have emerged that Blackwater -- which provides guards for Paul Bremer, the U.S. administrator in Iraq -- ignored warnings from another security company that Fallujah was unsafe to travel through.

Furthermore, a former military colleague of one of the slain men, ex-Navy SEAL Scott Helvenston, 38, of Oceanside (San Diego County), has raised questions about why the company may have taken on risks they could not cope with.

"I hate to speak ill of the dead, and of a good friend," said Richard Perry, of Sacramento, a former naval intelligence officer who worked with Helvenston before he left the armed services. "But to be frank, everything that happened in Fallujah that day was a serious mistake. I simply cannot understand why the hell they were driving through the most dangerous part of Iraq in just two vehicles without a proper military escort."

Although Perry has not worked in Iraq since the war began, he has done similar work in Colombia and El Salvador. He said of the fatal convoy: "They were lightly armed, and yet they would be up against people who regularly take on the U.S. Army."

(To see the rest: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/19/MNGKU67AHP1.DTL)


Most news sources ran this story to show how barbaric the Iraqi's were. Though the US armed forces were not technically involved the media dovetailed this event to show how dangerous it was and why our presence was necessary. Revenge was the cry! Lost in all of this was the fact that these were 4 US paid Merc's - not official US military. If the government can tell how theses 4 men were hung up and decapitated to incite the masses (in the US) to garner more support our war efforts why can’t they officially count them?!?!? (Hint: because it doesn’t look good on CNN or official casualty reports). Yet it is OK to expose their tragic end and their number for who's gain…?

This is why it is necessary to count contract Merc’s. If you are not looking for this you will definitely miss it:


“The brutal slaying and mutilation of four private U.S. guards as they drove through the flashpoint town of Fallujah last month shocked the world and sparked an escalation of the bloody conflict in Iraq. Yet as U.S. Marines besiege the overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim city in a bid to punish the attackers…”


1. If the fallen Blackwater 4 are “independent” contracted guards and have separate missions Why are MARINES going in to Fallujah (at the time) for "punish" their attackers?!?!.
2. Why does “the machine” get to tell you when it is ok to be appalled and disgusted by the deaths of contracted guns for hire - but THEY DON’T EVEN COUNT THEM?
3. Ok, more to your point: “… what is important is the number of U.S forces in Iraq”. How many US Forces died as a result of trying to punish the killers of the four Blackwater guards? Do you know? I don’t.


All I am saying is you can have the Kurds, Iraqi’s et al for the sake of this discussion. However, contracted armed soldiers (made of primarily US Special Forces and ex-military) should not be excluded from the total numbers. Their service is no less important. Nor do we ignore their lives when it comes to counter attacks for their losses. I am offering you the "Red" pill my friend. The rest is up to you...

(Note: My caps are not yelling. I am really trying to get you and any one lese to focus on the questions that are not being asked, let alone, introduced).

 

[actinanass]

As a veteran having completed 2 tours in Iraq as an infantry man conducting raids, and being shot at. Comparing what I've been through to the experiences any 11B of the Vietnam war is disrespectful. I will not and cannot do it. I've never made comparisons between either conflicts, so do not bring up the past. I'm speaking on what is relevant today. You sound like one of those Westpoint graduates without any time in a line unit. When you earn your CIB, come holla at me pimpin. Until then, STFU.

This post aint about fucking taxes dude. You wanna discuss those issues, make a fucking thread about it. The General is full of shit. These war analyst on CNN haven't seen a battle field since Desert fuckin Storm.

I respect your service, however, when you step in the political arena, I can careless about what you have seen. Only because there were people BEFORE you who were dealt with the same situation, and still had honor to NOT complain.

I respect your service, not your complaining.

Another thing, I know this post isn't about taxes. My point is, THERE ARE BETTER DEBATES OUT THERE instead of fighting if we should be in Iraq. That debate died in 03.

Now, since you are a soldier, do you want to be in the generation that lost a war due to politics? Do you want to have the same stigma Vietnam veterans have?

To answer your question if I was in the military. NO, only because I don't trust the political situation here. I have no fear of fighting for this country. Nearly all of my older family members have served the military *every branch*. I know you will point out "how u going to talk about me when u never served". Well, I just did, I'm a big ass hypocrite. Are you happy now?

 

[Steelwill2006]

(Note: My caps are not yelling. I am really trying to get you and any one lese to focus on the questions that are not being asked, let alone, introduced).

Dude, I don't give a fuck about civilian totals. I feel what you are trying to bring to the light but in all honesty, the only deaths that concern me in Iraq are those that wear the same uniform that I once wore.

 

[Steelwill2006]

I respect your service, however, when you step in the political arena, I can careless about what you have seen. Only because there were people BEFORE you who were dealt with the same situation, and still had honor to NOT complain.

I respect your service, not your complaining.

Another thing, I know this post isn't about taxes. My point is, THERE ARE BETTER DEBATES OUT THERE instead of fighting if we should be in Iraq. That debate died in 03.

Now, since you are a soldier, do you want to be in the generation that lost a war due to politics? Do you want to have the same stigma Vietnam veterans have?

To answer your question if I was in the military. NO, only because I don't trust the political situation here. I have no fear of fighting for this country. Nearly all of my older family members have served the military *every branch*. I know you will point out "how u going to talk about me when u never served". Well, I just did, I'm a big ass hypocrite. Are you happy now?

Yes!

 

[nyyyyce]

Dude, I don't give a fuck about civilian totals. I feel what you are trying to bring to the light but in all honesty, the only deaths that concern me in Iraq are those that wear the same uniform that I once wore.

I am missing something here? According to this article: Blackwater agents”… ignored warnings from another security company that Fallujah was unsafe to travel through”. They (the 4 BW guards) were also “…lightly armed, and yet they would be up against people who regularly take on the U.S. Army."

You don’t find it disturbing – at all – that:

1. Blackwater/contract agencies operate OUTSIDE of military judicial jurisdiction should they commit a crime – unlike enlisted officers.
2. These men (in the article) put themselves in harms way by disobeying information given to them.
3. Contracted "civilians" are not beholden to ANY US military chain of command authority like officers. (Hence this debacle).
4. The deaths of these 4 “civilian” guards triggered a US Marine assault on a town that was an established haven of death.
5. Their reckless “civilian” actions possibly led to the deaths of some of your peers?
6. This is only ONE reported case. Does anyone know howmany times US commanders threw soldiers into the fray for an armed "civilian" contractors back?!?!? I don't and neither does the rest of America.

I respect your service and what you have given. I have not served in the military, but I have a hard time swallowing the fact that these Merc’s or “civilians” can f-up their independent mission and then have the wrath of the US Marines reign down to cover their autonomous @$$e$! Yet, the government does not count the 4 that lead to the death of US officers… I would want to know their death count as well as how many of my comrades died for their mistakes. That’s just me. If you’re cool with that then I stand down. You are entitled to your perspective.

 

[Rollie_Fingaz]

The only thing that I ask these people is this: Bush has been screaming about terrorism, but since he has been in office, what has he done to make our country safer? Because I see illegals coming here in record numbers.

 

[blackmouth]

The only thing that I ask these people is this: Bush has been screaming about terrorism, but since he has been in office, what has he done to make our country safer? Because I see illegals coming here in record numbers.

"terrorism" = iraq was the 1st country to switch to trading their oil with the EURO as a basis instead of the american dollar.

translation: since our economy and money are based on oil, we'd be up shit creek if big oil producing nations switched over to the euro as well. the american dollar and british pound would be essentially worthless.

saddam switched over in 2000, and they hung him.
ahmadinejad (iran) switched over last year i think. this was just the time when they were all of a sudden mentioned in war talks as well.

it's about oil & the american dollar. don't let the "terrorism" bullshit trick you.

 

[Rythm]

Sigh............ I have been screaming this shit since 2003 ..... that nothing good was going to come out of this war ............. and Nothing will....... It was a horrible idea from its conception

No, the idea was for Bush, and his oil/contractor buddies to get wealthy. I think that plan is working out quite nice for them

 

[dirtydee]

 

[geckosticky1]

I respect your service, however, when you step in the political arena, I can careless about what you have seen. Only because there were people BEFORE you who were dealt with the same situation, and still had honor to NOT complain.

I respect your service, not your complaining.

Another thing, I know this post isn't about taxes. My point is, THERE ARE BETTER DEBATES OUT THERE instead of fighting if we should be in Iraq. That debate died in 03.

Now, since you are a soldier, do you want to be in the generation that lost a war due to politics? Do you want to have the same stigma Vietnam veterans have?

To answer your question if I was in the military. NO, only because I don't trust the political situation here. I have no fear of fighting for this country. Nearly all of my older family members have served the military *every branch*. I know you will point out "how u going to talk about me when u never served". Well, I just did, I'm a big ass hypocrite. Are you happy now?

I can't believe I wasted two minutes of my life reading this bullshit post
For future reference You will be added to my ignore list and I advise you do the same for me.

 

[dooley76]

This is all BIG business and they don't give a fuck what you think about it. Those stale lunch meat smellin' muthafuckas will always support whatever will generate $ in their pockets.