THE WRESTLING THREAD: HELL HAS FROZE OVER JOHN CENA HAS GONE FULL HEEL

[0utsyder]

He made a name for himself in the US wrestling in NXT before jumping to the main roster

I was including his NXT run when I said WWE. He had A title run in NXT if I am not mistaken. He wasn't in NXT for long. His time in RAW and SmackDown he got a Royal Rumble win and I think 2 IC runs, yet he gets a pop. I would argue that a lot of that comes from his time in NJPW

 

[EPDC]

I was including his NXT run when I said WWE. He had A title run in NXT if I am not mistaken. He wasn't in NXT for long. His time in RAW and SmackDown he got a Royal Rumble win and I think 2 IC runs, yet he gets a pop. I would argue that a lot of that comes from his time in NJPW

Nah. I see it coming off his NXT run and the way he was pushed and promoted.

American (WWE) wrestling audiences aren't checking for NJPW like that. He wasn't widely known by WWE wrestling fans prior to coming to the states.

 

[younggiftedandblack]

Nah. I see it coming off his NXT run and the way he was pushed and promoted.

American (WWE) wrestling audiences aren't checking for NJPW like that. He wasn't widely known by WWE wrestling fans prior to coming to the states.

I kind of disagree with this narrative. I think a lot of the IWC tend to short sell or put the WWE audience in this box as this clueless bunch of sports entertainment casuals who only know what Vince tells them. I think the majority, while not able to cite every NJPW or indie match, are very much informed. Look at the reactions when Kana (Asuaka), Nakamura and AJ Styles showed up.

 

[chrislee]

 

[EPDC]

I kind of disagree with this narrative. I think a lot of the IWC tend to short sell or put the WWE audience in this box as this clueless bunch of sports entertainment casuals who only know what Vince tells them. I think the majority, while not able to cite every NJPW or indie match, are very much informed. Look at the reactions when Kana (Asuaka), Nakamura and AJ Styles showed up.

I disagree.

WWE audiences lean more towards families and children. Look at the crowds attending WWE shows versus Impact or AEW shows, you'll see way more children and families at WWE events where as in AEW, it's mostly adult neckbeard wrestling nerds fans.

Kids attending WWE shows aren't keeping up with Japanese Wrestlers in a Japanese promotion.

Asuka and Nakamura both built their North American career in NXT, and had some familiarity when they moved up to the main roster.

Styles made a name in Impact/TNA.

 

[XXXplosive]

I disagree.

WWE audiences lean more towards families and children. Look at the crowds attending WWE shows versus Impact or AEW shows, you'll see way more children and families at WWE events where as in AEW, it's mostly adult neckbeard wrestling nerds fans.

Kids attending WWE shows aren't keeping up with Japanese Wrestlers in a Japanese promotion.

Asuka and Nakamura both built their North American career in NXT, and had some familiarity when they moved up to the main roster.

Styles made a name in Impact/TNA.

Agreed.
My son is a WWE fan and I know he couldn't name one Japanese wrestler.
He does know wrestlers from AEW and even some in Impact (former WWE talent), however, from watching YouTube.
The Japanese stuff is so niche and only appeals to a relatively small wrestling audience and even smaller general audience.

 

[XXXplosive]

Lolz remember a few months ago cats in here were talking about Jay White and how his signing by WWE or AEW would be a game changer....

Well, has he changed the game in AEW? Haven't heard a peep regarding him in weeks and then AEW brought in Roderick Strong that basically took away any buzz White should have had.

Is White in any feuds yet?

LOL, all the Japanese marks were shitting on WWE for not signing Jay White, meanwhile he's already been cast off to TK's toy chest where he'll soon be doing jobs to Pockets on Rampage.

 

[EPDC]

LOL, all the Japanese marks were shitting on WWE for not signing Jay White, meanwhile he's already been cast off to TK's toy chest where he'll soon be doing jobs to Pockets on Rampage.

I was expecting to see White come to AEW and be on some mega heel shit targeting and taking out everyone and/or getting real heel heat.

But nah, he's wrestling Komander, Spears and Starks.

No shade against Starks, but he isn't someone a mega heel should be wasting time on.

 

[younggiftedandblack]

I disagree.

WWE audiences lean more towards families and children. Look at the crowds attending WWE shows versus Impact or AEW shows, you'll see way more children and families at WWE events where as in AEW, it's mostly adult neckbeard wrestling nerds fans.

Kids attending WWE shows aren't keeping up with Japanese Wrestlers in a Japanese promotion.

Asuka and Nakamura both built their North American career in NXT, and had some familiarity when they moved up to the main roster.

Styles made a name in Impact/TNA.

I included NXT when I made my earlier statement. Granted that crowd tends to be more knowledgeable, but it's still WWE and they both got great responses on their debuts. I think a nice mix of smarks and casuals make up their core audience. I saw a post someone on Reddit made about how they were surprised by the crowd response at Backlash to Iyo Sky. They didn't think the crowd would know who she was.

 

[EPDC]

I included NXT when I made my earlier statement. Granted that crowd tends to be more knowledgeable, but it's still WWE and they both got great responses on their debuts. I think a nice mix of smarks and casuals make up their core audience. I saw a post someone on Reddit made about how they were surprised by the crowd response at Backlash to Iyo Sky. They didn't think the crowd would know who she was.

Iyo's work helped get her over with the Backlash crowd, but I think the crowd originally was rooting more so against Bianca than they were for Iyo, though. Again, she was in NXT prior.

Who was the last Japanese wrestler to jump over to the WWE (main roster) to receive a significant response? Taka Michinoku?

 

[younggiftedandblack]

Iyo's work helped get her over with the Backlash crowd, but I think the crowd originally was rooting more so against Bianca than they were for Iyo, though. Again, she was in NXT prior.

Who was the last Japanese wrestler to jump over to the WWE (main roster) to receive a significant response? Taka Michinoku?

I wasn't really arguing for anyone from Japan. But more so any wrestler outside of the WWE, who came in and the fans knew who they were or had heard of them. My point was to say I don't think a lot of WWE fans are as clueless to anyone outside of the promotion that they are sometimes portrayed to be.

 

[XXXplosive]

I was expecting to see White come to AEW and be on some mega heel shit targeting and taking out everyone and/or getting real heel heat.

But nah, he's wrestling Komander, Spears and Starks.

No shade against Starks, but he isn't someone a mega heel should be wasting time on.

Starks is really good on the mic and has potential but he comes off as a lightweight Rock to me.
If he bulked up a little and with some more experience, he could be really good in the future.
But yeah, right now he's not a main eventer.

 

[EPDC]

Starks is really good on the mic and has potential but he comes off as a lightweight Rock to me.
If he bulked up a little and with some more experience, he could be really good in the future.
But yeah, right now he's not a main eventer.

He really is a mini-version of the Rock from when he was in his flashy shirt phase lolz

 

[c_commander]

I was expecting to see White come to AEW and be on some mega heel shit targeting and taking out everyone and/or getting real heel heat.

But nah, he's wrestling Komander, Spears and Starks.

No shade against Starks, but he isn't someone a mega heel should be wasting time on.

Starks could be a top face in that company but he's not there yet and he's in yet another feud where both he and the person that he's feuding could really use the win to establish themselves

 

[EPDC]

Starks could be a top face in that company but he's not there yet and he's in yet another feud where both he and the person that he's feuding could really use the win to establish themselves

It's a no win situation for both.

White wins the feud, big deal, you beat Ricky Starks, a guy who lost to MJF but whose biggest win was against Brian Cage for a non sanctioned belt lolz

If Starks wins, he beat a guy who who defeated Komander.

Lolz

 

[0utsyder]

I disagree.

WWE audiences lean more towards families and children. Look at the crowds attending WWE shows versus Impact or AEW shows, you'll see way more children and families at WWE events where as in AEW, it's mostly adult neckbeard wrestling nerds fans.

Kids attending WWE shows aren't keeping up with Japanese Wrestlers in a Japanese promotion.

Asuka and Nakamura both built their North American career in NXT, and had some familiarity when they moved up to the main roster.

Styles made a name in Impact/TNA.

Agreed.
My son is a WWE fan and I know he couldn't name one Japanese wrestler.
He does know wrestlers from AEW and even some in Impact (former WWE talent), however, from watching YouTube.
The Japanese stuff is so niche and only appeals to a relatively small wrestling audience and even smaller general audience.

But you're a fan @XXXplosive! It isn't like these parents take their kids to shows and sit on their phones for three hours. These are also fans, "you" let "your" kids watch WWE, but "you'll" watch NJPW or at the very least watch clips of these matches. When Nakamura comes out it isn't all kids cheering him. It's their parents as well, dumb and smart marks alike. And that is my point WWE makes money from kids buying merch, but the parents are ALSO buying merch! Those same neckbeard nerds that @EPDC likes shytting on, mate with each other and take their kids to WWE shows.

It would be one thing if this were Disney on Ice where ALL of their money is made off of children merch sales, but it isn't. Adults make up, I would argue a majority of their sales. A good number of those adults also watch other aspects of wrestling besides WWE. You both kinda prove my point of how people find these other promotions. You may not watch NJPW, but you know who Jay White is. At the very least you have seen a clip of him wrestling. If he signed with WWE you would be able to say that he came from NJPW to WWE.

 

[EPDC]

but you know who Jay White is

I honestly have never heard of the guy prior to this past year.

Omega, Young Bucks, even Osprey, yeah, I heard of them and saw some of their matches prior to AEW forming four years ago.

Jay White? I probably couldn't pick the guy out of a lineup if he was standing next to former NY Jets legendary Quarterback Mike White.

 

[0utsyder]

I honestly have never heard of the guy prior to this past year.

Omega, Young Bucks, even Osprey, yeah, I heard of them and saw some of their matches prior to AEW forming four years ago.

Jay White? I probably couldn't pick the guy out of a lineup if he was standing next to former NY Jets legendary Quarterback Mike White.

Okay...I didn't say WHEN you heard of him, only that YOU heard of him. How did you hear/watch the matches of Omega, Osprey, etc...?

 

[EPDC]

Okay...I didn't say WHEN you heard of him, only that YOU heard of him. How did you hear/watch the matches of Omega, Osprey, etc...?

Clips posted here on the board, of course. Lolz

I don't think most WWE fans are logged into BGOL.

 

[0utsyder]

Clips posted here on the board, of course. Lolz

I don't think most WWE fans are logged into BGOL.

Dog...c'mon son!!! Now you're just being a dyck! Reddit, YouTube, google searches, FCUK the internet in general is how people find out about other wrestlers or promotions.

I used to trade wrestling tapes ECW for NJPW thinking I was the only person to ever think of or do this. Come to find out this was a pretty common worldwide. To think you're the only WWE fan to have found wrestlers outside of the promotion via the internet is either narrow or your trolling the FCUK outta me!

 

[EPDC]

Dog...c'mon son!!! Now you're just being a dyck! Reddit, YouTube, google searches, FCUK the internet in general is how people find out about other wrestlers or promotions.

I used to trade wrestling tapes ECW for NJPW thinking I was the only person to ever think of or do this. Come to find out this was a pretty common worldwide. To think you're the only WWE fan to have found wrestlers outside of the promotion via the internet is either narrow or your trolling the FCUK outta me!

I never got into trading tapes. Only tapes I ever traded were porn VHS tapes back in the day. Lolz

I learned about wrestlers subscribing to old wrestling magazines back in the early 2000s as well as internet message boards and wrestling websites... Lolz. Don't read magazines anymore nor do I do much wrestling reading outside of BGOL and perhaps Twitter.

As far as your previous question, like I said, I first noticed or learned about Omega, the Bucks and Osprey here on BGOL.

 

[c_commander]

It's a no win situation for both.

White wins the feud, big deal, you beat Ricky Starks, a guy who lost to MJF but whose biggest win was against Brian Cage for a non sanctioned belt lolz

If Starks wins, he beat a guy who who defeated Komander.

Lolz

If White wins he also beat a guy who defeated Chris Jericho multiple times even if the feud crapped on any momentum that Starks may have had.
And White is big to their most hardcore fans while most American fans don't know who he or Juice Robinson are besides White randomly showing up a couple of times last year. And if a casual American fans remembered Juice Robinson it would be for his stint in NXT as top tier jobber CJ Parker.
And that's a big problem where a guy comes in to some buzz and is instantly devalued.

 

[XXXplosive]

But you're a fan @XXXplosive! It isn't like these parents take their kids to shows and sit on their phones for three hours. These are also fans, "you" let "your" kids watch WWE, but "you'll" watch NJPW or at the very least watch clips of these matches. When Nakamura comes out it isn't all kids cheering him. It's their parents as well, dumb and smart marks alike. And that is my point WWE makes money from kids buying merch, but the parents are ALSO buying merch! Those same neckbeard nerds that @EPDC likes shytting on, mate with each other and take their kids to WWE shows.

It would be one thing if this were Disney on Ice where ALL of their money is made off of children merch sales, but it isn't. Adults make up, I would argue a majority of their sales. A good number of those adults also watch other aspects of wrestling besides WWE. You both kinda prove my point of how people find these other promotions. You may not watch NJPW, but you know who Jay White is. At the very least you have seen a clip of him wrestling. If he signed with WWE you would be able to say that he came from NJPW to WWE.

Nope, I had no clue and still don't really know who Jay White is. He's not as big a star as you think.
Y'all and a few mentions of his name on podcasts I listen to are the only reason I heard of him.
I'm sure he can do a lot of cool-looking video game type moves in the ring, but probably can't cut a decent promo and has little to no charisma.

 

[EPDC]

If White wins he also beat a guy who defeated Chris Jericho multiple times even if the feud crapped on any momentum that Starks may have had.
And White is big to their most hardcore fans while most American fans don't know who he or Juice Robinson are besides White randomly showing up a couple of times last year. And if a casual American fans remembered Juice Robinson it would be for his stint in NXT as top tier jobber CJ Parker.
And that's a big problem where a guy comes in to some buzz and is instantly devalued.

Lolz Action Andretti (?) beat Jericho too....

White vs Action Andretti vs Starks should Main Event the "All In" event in London.

That's good shit, pal.

 

[c_commander]

Lolz Action Andretti (?) beat Jericho too....

White vs Action Andretti vs Starks should Main Event All In event in London.

That's good shit, pal.

That Action Andretti shit was Khan letting Chris Jericho silence his critics who thinks that he buried people cause that shit went nowhere fast. He beat Jericho, got his face burned, then no rematch, no revenge and Andretti disappeared like so many do.
White and Starks should be fighting other people to get established to then feud but they get to be stuck in mid card limbo with Powerhouse Hobbs amongst others

 

[EPDC]

That Action Andretti shit was Khan letting Chris Jericho silence his critics who thinks that he buried people cause that shit went nowhere fast. He beat Jericho, got his face burned, then no rematch, no revenge and Andretti disappeared like so many do.
White and Starks should be fighting other people to get established to then feud but they get to be stuck in mid card limbo with Powerhouse Hobbs amongst others

And thats a problem with some of these old WWE guys working in AEW, thinking their "star power" helps elevate others.

Who have Jericho or Punk (when he was around) elevated? Daniel Garcia? Action Andretti? Wheeler Yuta?

TK has a lot of good young talent under his roster but he needs to stop letting Jericho influence him on his booking.

There is no reason why Wardlow and Hobbs aren't competing for the top title. Jungle Boy and Guevara?

I'll give them Darby because he's a ragdoll and sells like one. His career will be short anyways and has so far made a career of beating guys twice his size...

Which brings me to another point, nine times out of ten, whenever a smaller wrestler who weighs 150-175lbs faces off against a bigger guy in an AEW match, the smaller guy almost always wins.

Lance Archer was given so many promos and hype before he debuted only to eat a pin to Darby Allin early on lolz.

No way that should have happened.

 

[0utsyder]

Nope, I had no clue and still don't really know who Jay White is. He's not as big a star as you think.
Y'all and a few mentions of his name on podcasts I listen to are the only reason I heard of him.
I'm sure he can do a lot of cool-looking video game type moves in the ring, but probably can't cut a decent promo and has little to no charisma.

Not saying if he's a star of not. I am saying you have HEARD of him. You cats are thinking that I am hyping this dude up as some kind of NJPW John Cena! I am NOT doing that at all!!! I am saying you have heard of dude. And keep in mind I wasn't saying you per se, hence why I had the you in quotes. You HEARD of dude on BGOL, another wrestling fan heard of him from Reddit. Another wrestling fan who has three kids heard of him when he and his daughter was looking up Jay Lethal and and the YouTube algorithm slipped in a Jay White video and they went down THAT rabbit hole.

Also what is the definition of "star" ya'll are using?!?! Jay White is mentioned here, on podcasts that you listen to as well as SirusXM radio shows. How much of a star does someone need to be?!?!? That motherfcuker ain't in Fast n Furious movies, FCUK HIM!!!! They all can't star in Cricket wireless commercials that ONLY air on their shows and be considered HUGE superstars.

 

[datboi]

I have been saying this for awhile. If we are being honest here's an analogy. The IWC understands WWE is the main stream product growing up I was always the anti establishment fan. I would watch all of the terroritories Mid South, WCCW. AWA, NWA, UWF, WCW and ECW. WWF was always available and you had to seek out the others which in parts makes it fun. Put the WWE is like the NFL, NJPW/ROH/GCW and other independent leagues are like the USFL, CFL or XFL. You may occasionally tune in and watch. You may recognize a top player from one of these leagues. Put the casual and some hard-core fans will not know all of the players. Now AEW is different because there's no equivalent to Football like the Big 3 in basketball. Where they are recognizeable Wrestlers that can still perform but just does not have all of the tools to make it to the league ornlike NXT just aren't ready yet

 

[EPDC]

Not saying if he's a star of not. I am saying you have HEARD of him. You cats are thinking that I am hyping this dude up as some kind of NJPW John Cena! I am NOT doing that at all!!! I am saying you have heard of dude. And keep in mind I wasn't saying you per se, hence why I had the you in quotes. You HEARD of dude on BGOL, another wrestling fan heard of him from Reddit. Another wrestling fan who has three kids heard of him when he and his daughter was looking up Jay Lethal and and the YouTube algorithm slipped in a Jay White video and they went down THAT rabbit hole.

Also what is the definition of "star" ya'll are using?!?! Jay White is mentioned here, on podcasts that you listen to as well as SirusXM radio shows. How much of a star does someone need to be?!?!? That motherfcuker ain't in Fast n Furious movies, FCUK HIM!!!! They all can't star in Cricket wireless commercials that ONLY air on their shows and be considered HUGE superstars.

Lolz cats in this thread were hyping Switchblade as "the best heel" in the business. He should be a heat magnet. From what I've seen so far, his heat couldn't power an LED tea light and that blade is hella dull.

All while Dom Mysterio is looking like a real heat magnet (from the crowd reactions he's received).

Lolz

 

[0utsyder]

Lolz cats in this thread were hyping Switchblade as "the best heel" in the business. He should be a heat magnet. From what I've seen so far, his heat couldn't power an LED tea light and that blade is hella dull.

All while Dom Mysterio is looking like a real heat magnet (from the crowd reactions he's received).

Lolz

I would never say that, just on the fact that it is hard for people to transition to the other crowds. Meaning Sasha really hasn't transitioned well into Japanese crowds and NJPW wrestlers don't transition well to American crowds.

Dom was getting that heat when he was a face!!! Folks just don't like him. It isn't like he did anything to get that heat except use his dads name to get a job.

Why is it that THAT'S the part you chose to reply to? You reply to a point I made to you personally with a point that I never made.

 

[0utsyder]

I have been saying this for awhile. If we are being honest here's an analogy. The IWC understands WWE is the main stream product growing up I was always the anti establishment fan. I would watch all of the terroritories Mid South, WCCW. AWA, NWA, UWF, WCW and ECW. WWF was always available and you had to seek out the others which in parts makes it fun. Put the WWE is like the NFL, NJPW/ROH/GCW and other independent leagues are like the USFL, CFL or XFL. You may occasionally tune in and watch. You may recognize a top player from one of these leagues. Put the casual and some hard-core fans will not know all of the players. Now AEW is different because there's no equivalent to Football like the Big 3 in basketball. Where they are recognizeable Wrestlers that can still perform but just does not have all of the tools to make it to the league ornlike NXT just aren't ready yet

Look I get what you're saying, but the casual fan isn't the same as it was 30 years ago. The internet has so many rabbit holes. Look at it like porn. 20 years ago broads could only work for a handful of companies to be considered a star. Jasamine Banks Mz Natural as popular as they are, they've never had a exclusive contract like a Misty Stone or a Marie Luv. How many broads have you found just looking at the suggestion videos on PornHub?

YouTube gives you Aba n Preach. Next thing you know you've subscribed to LTTV, Playback, etc... The way these systems work is to keep you watching. A Conor McGregor fan knows about Michael Chandler before he got to the UFC that doesn't make him a super fan. That term just needs to be updated due to the amount of information that is available.

 

[EPDC]

I would never say that, just on the fact that it is hard for people to transition to the other crowds. Meaning Sasha really hasn't transitioned well into Japanese crowds and NJPW wrestlers don't transition well to American crowds.

Dom was getting that heat when he was a face!!! Folks just don't like him. It isn't like he did anything to get that heat except use his dads name to get a job.

Why is it that THAT'S the part you chose to reply to? You reply to a point I made to you personally with a point that I never made.

Dom wasn't getting much heat good or bad as a face. He was a corny Rocky Maiavia blue chipper Babyface and no one cared for him either way.

Playing a punk kid pushed him way over, because everyone hates a spoiled punk and wants to see their parents whoop their ass.

Funny thing though, while Dom's character has benefited from his father's name recognition, he's also improved tremendously in the ring and in the way he's come off onscreen in promos.

Does he still have to improve? Absolutely, but he legitimately is one of the most over stars in WWE right now and when he eventually turns face again in the next year or two, saving his dad, he will get a mega Sami Zayn turning on the Bloodline/hugging it out with Kevin Owens pop.

BTW, Here you go

You HEARD of dude on BGOL, another wrestling fan heard of him from Reddit.

I heard of the pizza pie twirling guy. Does that make him a known commodity in wrestling or to most wrestling fans?

Also what is the definition of "star" ya'll are using?!?! Jay White is mentioned here, on podcasts that you listen to as well as SirusXM radio shows. How much of a star does someone need to be?!?!? That motherfcuker ain't in Fast n Furious movies, FCUK HIM!!!! They all can't star in Cricket wireless commercials that ONLY air on their shows and be considered HUGE superstars.

A star is someone people care enough to buy tickets for or tune in to see, whether they like them or like hating them.

I would say the only true star AEW had was CM Punk. People tuned in to see him.

MJF has star power, but his reign has been meh.

 

[Mastermind2002]

 

[datboi]

Now I would tune into NJPW or Stardom to watch her.

 

[Mastermind2002]

Now I would tune into NJPW or Stardom to watch her.

Tune in for Mina but stick around for Giulia.

Here's a site where you can download or stream Stardom shows for free. I highly recommend the All-Star Grand Queendom show (4/23/2023) and the Legend of Fukuoka Goddess show (5/5/2023).

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