RJJ was so fucking quick. Floyd had impeccable defense.
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He definitely dominated Gotti, but you have to admit hitting a wideopen defenseless person may change the way they proceed the rest of the fight.
Also Floyd did learn from that cuz when a similar situation happened with Ortiz, he laid that mfkr out.
So glad to see this thread... RJJ is one of the most underrated boxers of all time. Period! FM and RJJ in their weight classes are #1. RJJ's downfall was the record industry with "BodyHead" or "HeadBody" record etc.... Had he just stayed focused. TARGET got lucky throwing that punch with his eyes closed. After that RJJ just put too much pressure on himself to attempt to erase that 1st loss.
He went back down...one of the all time great mistakes...think there was actually talk of a Tyson fight...Roy likes to fight off the ropes too much and I dont think that style woulda went well with even that faded version of Tyson
I can definitely see that.
The Ref tell you protect YASELF at all times at the start of every fight.
Smart niggas don't have to be told something twice. See my point yet?
A few things, although Mosley and Pacquiao are fast fighters neither had a big speed advantage over Mayweather. If it's Jones fighting at 140 or Mayweather fighting at 160 Jones would have a big speed advantage at either weight. As you mentioned Pacquiao is fast and awkward at times but for the most part he's still a conventional fighter Jones isn't. Hopkins and Toney are like Mayweather because they're all highly skilled well-schooled fundamentally sound fighters.
I don't think Jones stops him but Mayweather doesn't adjust to him either. Hopkins and Toney tried to adjust too but RJJ was a different animal at his best.
Yeah Zab was a bit quicker than Mayweather but Jones at Judah's size would be much faster than Mayweather plus despite his speed Judah was still a conventional fighter that you could prepare for. How do you prepare for Jones?
He was hungry, it's hard to beat a hungry man
Wheres the flag?!
Mayweather didn't edge out a win he dominated Judah from about the 5th round on and was most likely
on his way to stopping him before the low blow.
You're right about the Lt. Heavy div being weak during Jones' reign but some of the fighters that could have made it a stronger division like Hopkins, Toney, Calzagne and Benn stayed away. Jones was also really an 168 lb fighter fighting at 175, still he beat some decent Lt Heavies, Virgil Hill, Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Otis Grant, and Lou Del Valle.
That was the ref's fault, they were in a clinch and the ref said break but he didn't physically get between them. When Gatti heard break he relaxed, Mayweather didn't, he may not have even heard the ref. Like it was said earlier, protect yourself at all times.
I guess you missed the part where I specified 'power.' If Hopkins and Toney can (and were) compared to Floyd on the strength of their defense, then the 3 I mentioned can be compared in relative terms to Jones.
I agree about the speed. Jones probably would be faster, but Floyd was/is still lightning quick as well and with FAR better fundamentals. I completely disagree about Pac being conventional. He's not. Lastly, Hopkins and Jones are only similar to an 147lb+ aging Money Mayweather due to their defensive skills/awareness. Those two aren't like prime PBF in the slightest. PBF was a superior athlete and the far superior offensive fighter.
Why are you talking about an old Mayweather vs a prime Jones?
Jones fought more than his fair share of over the hill guys (Hill & McCallum spring to mind), and cab drivers. Jones is great, there is no denying that, but his record isn't filled with prime HOF'ers either.
Plenty of fighters used a form of the shoulder roll well before it was ever introduced to Toney. Even still, Toney failing against Jones means nothing. PBF and Toney were vastly different fighters.
That's the point I was making Toney and Hopkins were both fundamentally sound fighters that Jones beat, Mayweather would be facing someone unlike anyone he's ever seen before.
Pacquiao's speed allowed him to get away with some things other fighters couldn't but he was still a conventional fighter? What makes you say he wasn't? Naseem Hamed was another fighter who's speed allowed him to get away with things other fighters couldn't but he was an unconventional fighter, Pacquiao for the most part fights like most fighters are taught to fight.
I said they were similar because they are all highly skilled well-schooled fundamentally sound fighters.
Hill was only 34 and slightly faded when he fought Jones even so that body shot KO was very impressive, also Jones was an undersized Lt Heavy who was really a 168 lb fighter.
Different fighters but still on the same level.
But my point was neither Hopkins nor Toney possessed the type of hand and foot speed that Mayweather had in his prime. Their defensive games were similar to an older/heavier Mayweather, but PBF and Money are two different fighters.
He's constantly bouncing around throwing lunging punches from ridiculous angles, and he routinely comes off his while feet throwing, but like Jones he gets away w/ it because of his quick reflexes and athletic ability. Pac is definitely not a textbook fighter in my opinion. His style would be far down on a list of styles a trainer would have his fighter try and emulate.
I see where you're going, and I'm not knocking Toney/Hopkins, but PBF was on a different level. Unlike Money, prime PBF was an offensive machine, and would routinely hunt guys down.
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As much as I used to love Jones Jr., his defense was traaaaassh!
His only defense was his speed.
Tarver exposes the hell out of Jones’s lack of defense and had me super pissed for wasting my money on that pay per view.
His only defense was his speed.
Tarver exposes the hell out of Jones’s lack of defense and had me super pissed for wasting my money on that pay per view.
Hill was a good scalp, but it needs to be put in to context. 34, 40+ fights, and I think he was coming off a one sided loss. He was faded.
Has Toney ever been Top 3 p4p? A unified champ? Undisputed? PBF was dominant. Toney never was.
Roy did what he did in his first 40 fights, but he should have hanged it up after the Ruiz win and stayed on top. Floyd (maybe illiterate) but he handpicked fighters at the right time in his career. Getting an inexperienced Canelo early on, and Zab at their timing of their careers was brilliant. Floyd fought at a lighter weight class was smart as well. No way he goes unblemished if he would have started at 147-154 early on as well.
Floyd owes alot of his success not only to him, but his team.
Floyd owes alot of his success not only to him, but his team.
Why would you expect a 19 y/o who weighed 130 to fight 3 or 4 weight classes over his own?
Not sure if you're intentionally trying to misconstrue my words or not. I never said an Old Mayweather. I said in THEIR primes and at a catchweight, I'm picking RJJ over Floyd. I in fact never mentioned an Old Floyd at all. In that quote, I stated Floyd from his own mouth said Mosley punched him the hardest in his career. And I went on to infer that if an on the decline Mosley rung his bell a little, an in his prime RJJ (at catchweight) would have the power to not only punch him harder but at the least give him a knockdown.
True but adding to my belief in RJJ ring IQ and offensive superiority, Toney was the first fighter with that defensive technique that he faced. And he dominated him. He studied his footage, went into camp accordingly and it showed in the ring.
Toney was #3 p4p in 1993 and was in fact #2 p4p in 1994 leading up to the RJJ fight. Toney was coming off numerous title defenses starting mid 92 up until that fight in I believe April 94. Roy was #3 p4p leading up unto that fight. And by many was considered the underdog.
He said early on, not right out of the gate. Floyd did eventually up weight classes (like most fights do) and he seemed to do so at a time when competition was leaner and he could "pick" the meat racks he wanted to beat up on. He was inferring that if Floyd tried to go up earlier in his career, when there was more competition and less "picking" involved his record might look differently.
True but adding to my belief in RJJ ring IQ and offensive superiority, Toney was the first fighter with that defensive technique that he faced. And he dominated him. He studied his footage, went into camp accordingly and it showed in the ring.
Toney was #3 p4p in 1993 and was in fact #2 p4p in 1994 leading up to the RJJ fight. Toney was coming off numerous title defenses starting mid 92 up until that fight in I believe April 94. Roy was #3 p4p leading up unto that fight. And by many was considered the underdog.
He said early on, not right out of the gate. Floyd did eventually up weight classes (like most fights do) and he seemed to do so at a time when competition was leaner and he could "pick" the meat racks he wanted to beat up on. He was inferring that if Floyd tried to go up earlier in his career, when there was more competition and less "picking" involved his record might look differently.
Why must people always try and find scenarios where Floyd would lose? Can’t we have a black man as the best ever?
All I know is this...Floyd is 50-0 and nobody else is. I won’t look for scenarios where he’d lose just like no Mexican or any other race would try and tarnish their greats.
All I know is this...Floyd is 50-0 and nobody else is. I won’t look for scenarios where he’d lose just like no Mexican or any other race would try and tarnish their greats.
The Mayweather that fought an old Mosley was also an old Mayweather, fighting above his prime weight.
Toney fights similar to the much older 'Money' version of Mayweather. PBF used the shoulder but *never* relied on it as much as he did in his older 'Money' years. Also Toney has never displayed the type of hand foot & speed nor the full body movement and punching output of a prime Pretty Boy Floyd. Using the 'Money' version and pitting it against Jones in his prime is disingenuous.
Jones is just as, if not more guilty of this than the accused Mayweather. PBF/Money Mayweather has far more HOF wins on his record than Jones. To this day, Jones fought (I want to say cherry picked, but I'll be objective) one of the weakest heavyweight champs E-V-E-R. I've mentioned some names throughout the years in these type of threads, but please go through Jones' record and point out his wins against HOF fighters especially, as he moved up in weight. We've already mentioned Hopkins (probably not prime, but whatever), Toney (prime), Hill (definitely not prime). For whatever reason, there are some very interesting fights that Jones missed along the way. The Dark Destroyer (if rumors are to be believed, then this wasn't on Jones), G-Man (there was a small window for this fight to take place) and Michalczewski are some that stand out. Honestly, I think Jones probably whips them all (I woulda killed to see Jones vs G-Man), but he needs to be held to the same standard that most here hold Mayweather to.
Like you, and some here, I'm a boxing fan, so I loved both as HOF fighters, but it grates my nerves when casuals (not you) downplay the accomplishments of _____ to build up their favorite fighter. "Mayweather shoulda fought ________ at middleweight." "Mayweather has never had a punch" "Mayweather fought ____ when they got old." "Mayweather dodged ______." Those are the go to plays of casuals.
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Who's trying to tarnish Floyd? He does that enough on his own.
The question was posed, and I like most gave an opinion. That's it.
50-0 is incredible. Props to him.
At the time Jones fought Toney, Toney was #2 P4P only behind Julio Cesar Chavez. If you don't know this, you need to brush up on your boxing before you even comment on this topic. Toney was undefeated in a heavier weight class than Jones AND was considered a killer with GREAT fundamentals. Jones went straight to James Toney for the title shot without even testing the waters in the weight division and dominated every single round by boxing the shit out of Toney. When has Floyd EVER done something like this against an opponent of this caliber? Never! You have to be a fanboy hater to try and discredit this win.
And, Virgil Hill was not washed up at all when he fought Jones. He was only 34, had never been stopped before AND after he lost to Jones in 1998, he went on to become a two time champion at cruiserweight and had his last fight in 2015!
It is also hypocritcal to in one breath say Jones was just successful because he was fast and then in the next breath suggest James Toney's skills were not comparable to Floyd's because Floyd was faster and quicker. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Both Floyd and RJJ were great fighters but Floyd fans always seem like they need to downplay Jones' greatness in order to elevate Floyd. The often repeated mantra of "Roy was just fast, that's it" is just ignorant and disrespectful to the sport of boxing. You can't be "just fast" in this sport. You have to know what you are doing and actually know how and when to throw punches. In other words, you must have fundamentals no matter how fast you are.
A much better comparison would have been possible had Floyd dropped back down to 140 to fight Hatton or even 135 to fight a top contender after fighting at 147. Floyd was definitely smarter than Jones in this aspect as Jones' true downfall was dropping back down from heavyweight so quickly and unhealthily. Chris Byrd did the same thing and had similar tragic results. Hopkins and Floyd were smart because they didn't do that shit and had more longevity because of it.
And, Virgil Hill was not washed up at all when he fought Jones. He was only 34, had never been stopped before AND after he lost to Jones in 1998, he went on to become a two time champion at cruiserweight and had his last fight in 2015!
It is also hypocritcal to in one breath say Jones was just successful because he was fast and then in the next breath suggest James Toney's skills were not comparable to Floyd's because Floyd was faster and quicker. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Both Floyd and RJJ were great fighters but Floyd fans always seem like they need to downplay Jones' greatness in order to elevate Floyd. The often repeated mantra of "Roy was just fast, that's it" is just ignorant and disrespectful to the sport of boxing. You can't be "just fast" in this sport. You have to know what you are doing and actually know how and when to throw punches. In other words, you must have fundamentals no matter how fast you are.
A much better comparison would have been possible had Floyd dropped back down to 140 to fight Hatton or even 135 to fight a top contender after fighting at 147. Floyd was definitely smarter than Jones in this aspect as Jones' true downfall was dropping back down from heavyweight so quickly and unhealthily. Chris Byrd did the same thing and had similar tragic results. Hopkins and Floyd were smart because they didn't do that shit and had more longevity because of it.
Floyd doesn't need to be THAT black man. Sugar Ray Robinson was black and so was Muhammad Ali. Roy Jones is black too. Either way you slice it, a black man IS the best ever.
Canelo had about the same amount of fights as Floyd did. Canelo wasn't even on Floyd's radar but people kept saying Floyd wouldn't fight a young tough fighter. Yet he did and schooled him and now the talk is that Canelo was too inexperienced/young.
Canelo had about the same amount of fights as Floyd did. Canelo wasn't even on Floyd's radar but people kept saying Floyd wouldn't fight a young tough fighter. Yet he did and schooled him and now the talk is that Canelo was too inexperienced.
That Canelo fight was a legit feather in Floyd's cap. He fought a younger, larger, killer that was a force to be reckoned with. Canelo was definitely greenish but he was still a beast especially for a smaller guy coming up. Floyd's defense was beautiful that night. That was probably the first time I really respected it.